 Happy sabbath. Happy day. Happy day. Happy sabbath. We would like to invite all of you to this afternoon's session. Thank you to those who have joined us online on YouTube and Facebook and those in the congregation. You are all most welcome. We invite everyone, all those who are outside in the compound, to come in so that they don't miss the blessings that God has prepared for us this afternoon. And before we start, may we have a word of prayer and I'd like Donna please to pray for us. All right, let's pray. Masifu Father, we thank you for staying with us. Thank you for this afternoon program. We ask that you abide with us and for everyone leading this program today, I ask that you be with each and every person and may your spirit encompass with us in Jesus' name, I pray. Amen. To start us off this afternoon, we will sing song number 195 Shours of Blessing. 195 Shours of Blessing. Let's sing. Song number 422 Marching to Zion. Marching to Zion. Let's sing. Music will be song number 128. Let's sing. The Lord our sheltering, our sheltering. For us one water our sheltering. Today is religious liberty day. I'm going to share a few things with you. Noon and happy sabat. Thank you. And then I have on my left, Eli Oduk, we say hello. God is good. God is good. Amen. Thank you very much. So welcome to our discussions today. We are hoping that we will all discuss. Nobody has monopoly of wisdom. You know the religious liberty department deals largely with the law. So we will be discussing the law as simply as we can today. Last year for our religious liberty day we did do the law of succession and we talked a lot about what is tested and in tested succession. We talked about wheels and why it's important for our church members to do wheels. And we also discussed how you can actually be quick things to support the church. When we tried to do some sort of mini survey with church members for some strange reason they still wanted to do the law of succession but we've done it almost for two years and so we thought we should do something different that affects our lives. So today we really want to talk about freedom of worship and this is a topic that affects many Christians, actually many religions in the world. So we are going to discuss it more from the Christian perspective and we will even share some cases that have affected our church members. So really we are going to try and summarize it as much as possible. I'll have to request that you excuse me from the legal side. I will discuss the legal side largely and our brother Abura Kathiani will discuss really the gospel and the Bible together with Ellie and we also share our experiences as students and our experiences as employees or employers on this panel. So this is really what we want to discuss just to run through so that we are all aligned. We will discuss with the definition of freedom of worship what really is freedom of worship. We will then discuss the legal and policy framework for religious freedom. We will then focus on the Kenyan context, that's our country, that's where we reside. We will discuss the Bible and freedom of worship and we will discuss some examples on freedom of worship in the Bible. We will talk about the story of Moses, the story of Joseph, the story of Daniel, the story of Rahab, the story of Esther, the story of David, the story of Nehemiah and of course the story of our Lord Jesus Christ and any other examples that the panelists may wish to share. We will discuss case law overseas. This is obviously commonwealth based so we will discuss some case law in Canada, some case law in the UK and of course mostly case law in Kenya because this is where we are. We will then look at the United Nations declaration on the elimination of all forms of intolerance and discrimination based on religion and we will have concluding remarks. So I'll try, the legal side I know you might find it very technical but I'll try as much as possible to simplify it and in some cases we normally quote the law verbatim so in those cases I will try again to slow down so that I try and read it as slowly as possible so that you can understand but the way I think it's been done you can understand if you're not a lawyer I don't think it's that technical so just bear with me if it's technical but I thought just for you to understand a little bit about the context of the law we're talking about the constitution a lot and just for some basics for those who may not know I think most Kenyans know that the constitution is the supreme law of the land so when you put all our laws together all the statutes, all the acts of parliament the constitution is the most supreme or the superior law of the land and I need you to understand that background so that when we talk about cases you understand why the constitution is important when you talk about the bill of rights specifically on freedom of worship you also understand why the constitution is important just for a layman's perspective just remember it is the most supreme law of the land and in simple terms again for you to understand just the background where there's a contradiction with any other law the constitution is supreme and the constitution stands and that law is null and void to the extent of the inconsistency so I think we've all understood that it's important that you understand that so that when I talk about the specific articles or sections of other laws or case law then you need to understand really where I'm coming from and if they have any questions please feel free if you have any questions platform where they can ask questions I think you need to say that again just mentioning that just in case there's something you'd like clarity on if you pass it on in our social media platforms like Facebook or YouTube we will catch it and we will make sure that it's clarified as much as possible that we can before we leave thank you Ellie and also I think for those who are here I think you're free to perhaps maybe after the discussions just raise your hand and we'll try and answer as many questions as possible so I needed you to understand the place of the constitution in the laws of the Republic of Kenya the other thing that I needed to understand I'll talk about some cases are important because of what we call in law the doctrine of precedent now that sounds complex but it's very simple let me simplify it for you so when the judges make a decision of course that's the law so there's cases the law is of course the law in terms of acts of parliament the way you understand them and the constitution and then the law is also two cases so what we call cases or doctrine of precedent so I'll talk about some cases that are binding on us because that's the law I'll try and simplify it as much as possible so I'll talk about cases for example in the High Court and cases in the Court of Appeal just so that you can understand where we are thinking so obviously I need to just start with some background information and again I said please excuse me if I do a bit of reading because it's important that you understand the law as it is and I'll try to simplify it as much as possible so the first thing now that we're talking about religious liberty I just also need you to understand that the law provides that it's liberty for all religions okay so we are SDAs but the law requires that we respect other people's religions as well but let me just clarify doesn't mean that we do what they do it means that the law protects everybody it protects us and it protects other faiths as well but for purposes of us SDAs in this forum we need to understand that it protects us a lot the law protects us we look at the bible the bible protects our faith the law protects us in terms of the constitution and other laws and the law protects us in terms of case law so what is religious liberty so really and I think most of us know from the word liberty this is just the freedom to worship without any interference okay whether it's through a person or a party or through government so you can worship freely without anybody interfering with that right now it's also very very important that you understand that for us as Christians in this forum that the bible actually gives us religious liberty okay so God has given us a right to worship him without coercion or without force of course there are consequences if we don't worship him but the Lord gives us a right he says come so he's welcome us to worship him but we have a right to choose we are not forced by God to worship him so I'm just giving some background on the law and then we'll get to the more interesting stuff in the bible and as Christians of course we know that we have that right in the bible but of course we look at because we are living in the world we look at what does our what do our laws of Kenya say what do the international laws say and that's why I said we look at the United Nations declaration on the elimination of all forms of intolerance and discrimination based on religion so we need to just understand it from the legal context of Kenya so put very simply we've had two constitutions in Kenya if I can say that loosely so we had what we typically call the independence constitution so that was our first constitution and there was still freedom of worship in that and then we had the 2010 constitution where I believe most of us here really were involved in that process and understand a little bit about it now also as a scholar I must acknowledge that in doing this research I borrowed also from people who have written about religion freedom of religion and I have to acknowledge them otherwise that's called plagiarism so I did read a lot from a scholar who writes on religious liberty her name is Nokami Wangai and I also borrowed also from the institute on religion and public policy they are reported on religious freedom so I do really need to acknowledge their great publications in this area so looking at the Kenyan context and our current constitution we are very grateful that in this country we have religious freedom and the current constitution which is a 2010 constitution went extensively dealt with this extensively compared to our 1963 or our independence constitution so obviously if you look at the history of our country you will see that there were there had been a lot of debates from independence up to 2010 there were a lot of debates on many things but for us it's with the bill of rights and the rights for us to worship freely and thankfully in 2010 we celebrated the long awaited and long delayed democratic gains that came in our new constitution so the constitution of Kenya just very very importantly provides for us freedom of religion and that's in our public and our private space and you can see there's obviously a separation between the church and the state and the law says that we have to be treated rightfully with our religion so technically the Kenyan constitution effectively prohibits post religious conversion so nobody can convert you to their faith whether it's through your office or your school or your institution the constitution says nobody can compel you to perform, observe, undergo or adhere to any religious practices and we are going to deal with quite a bit of case law on that but again importantly we are going to share through the panel the importance of mediation and our experiences and just to say that we shouldn't be cantankaras and disrespectful of other religions when we ask for our faith to be respected and we'll talk about typically obviously for our kids, the school environment and for employers, for employees experiences that they've had with their employers so the right of freedom of religion is guaranteed in our constitution 2010 constitution and remember I told you it is the supreme law of the land so you can see how we are privileged when we are compared to some other jurisdictions in the world so the important article so the constitution has articles if I can say that simply maybe this is not the correct legal term but just to help you understand the sections they are called articles in the constitution and there are various articles that talk about this respect the paramont on that we'll talk about continuously is article 32 and article 32 and I'm going to quote this verbatim it guarantees every person the right to freedom of conscience freedom of religion, of thought, of belief and opinion and the right to manifest any religion or belief through worship, through practice through teaching and through observance so article 32 is particularly important as we discuss so if you forget don't worry too much about the legalists just remember this is the article that guarantees you the right to worship freely in our great country so it protects every person from denial of access to an institution employment or facility on the basis of their religion so you have a right to worship freely wherever you are now obviously article 32 is very important but the freedom of religion and belief is also batrest in article 27 which guarantees equality and freedom from discrimination all forms of discrimination and then article 24 also provides protection against limitation of rights except we are permitted by law and to the extent that it is proportionate so important for you remember article 32 as we discussed article 27 and article 24 but if you're overwhelmed by all that just remember article 32 from a simple perspective so under article 21 of our constitution there's further provision of protection for vulnerable religious communities so are you seeing how our we used to call it the new constitution but it's not really the new constitution anymore are you seeing how our constitution did a lot to protect us it does so that gives us comfort because it doesn't happen in some countries and this right is there even when you're in custody even when you're arrested a person has the right to observe his or her religion of course the other dynamics we know you can imagine if you're in a Kenyan police station and you start talking that's where we're going to say mediation comes in and the ability to express your faith and so I just wanted you to understand that background in understanding the basis of freedom of religion in our country article 32 27, article 24, article 21 so I think that has helped us understand and now I'd like us to just go to the Bible examples and then Elie can come and share with us his experiences and then I will now come to the case law or the cases that you hear about and try and simplify it as much as I have thank you very much so our brother Kathiani maybe you could just share with us some Bible examples in terms of freedom of worship and your perspective on that yes I thank you so much for the wonderful introduction actually as you are going through the constitution there is a constitution that it's almost a universal constitution the American constitution you will find people quoting everywhere because of the freedoms it has given their people the liberties that they have been given and even as you are going through this it kept echoing in my mind that we hold this truth as self-evident that all men are created equal and they have been endowed with certain unyaleable rights to life to pursue happiness and the pursuit of happiness they have been endowed by their creator with certain unyaleable rights to life and to pursue happiness and as you are talking about it I was realizing actually they recognize God the creator has given that rights to humanity and as you mentioned indeed when you read the Bible from the beginning we are told that Adam and Eve were told to choose from the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil and none was coerced so that even though God told them the consequences of disobedience we realized that there was nothing to stop him from making his choice and so we must recognize that indeed as created beings we have been given that freedom by God but mankind in introducing different governments and organizations and of course we realize our constitution in this land gives us freedoms of worship and freedoms of expression as we seek to worship our creator and as we seek to worship according to our different religious persuasions but man has always been the one against himself the first case that we find in the scriptures is the jealousy of two brothers one has decided to worship God by offering sacrifices another has decided to worship God by also offering from the fruit of the ground and offering to the Lord maybe carrots and vegetables and cabbages and pineapples the other one has worshiped God by offering a sacrifice of a lamb that he had the Bible tells us God had a favor with the able and to his offering but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect Cain became jealous it instigated jealousy so some of the reasons why we realize that people try to limit other people's freedom is when you think or feel an element of superiority mine is more superior and I want to impose mine on yours or I want to deal with you because yours is intimidating to mine because of the differences of the ways we express our worship and so we see that from the very beginning in the Bible and of course there were consequences to that then the family was small Adam Eve and the two sons so God had to deal with Cain by sending Cain away from his parents and Cain was sent away and Amakus put upon him because God had said anyone could kill Cain but Cain said no my judgment is too heavy please have mercy on me then God had mercy on Cain and Cain was sustained but we see from scriptures that there has always been a challenge to worship and people have always been telling when you look at the life of Daniel Daniel was a ruler of the medes and the passions the king then was called Darius Darius is pleased by Daniel the Bible says he sees an excellent spirit in Daniel he is impressed by his life and the way he conducts himself from the previous regimes that Daniel has been serving there has been an element of blessing to the king because of Daniel's presence in his cabinet affairs and so Darius continues employing him but the other people are jealous because they are seeking fault Daniel has been set the head of the three presidents over the affairs of the province of the medes and the passions so the rest look for a way of finding fault with Daniel and they say to themselves we cannot find any fault in Daniel except we find it in his God and so they manipulate the system and they create amendment to the constitution and maybe we look at how these amendments are created and how maybe we need to participate actively even in the process of constitution making because it is Kenyans who made the constitution so Darius is the other presidents mobilize the princes that they amend this constitution in the aspect of freedoms of worship that you cannot pray any way you want that story is found it's an interesting story found in the book of Daniel chapter 6 you cannot worship in any way you won't accept acknowledging and honoring the king in worship Daniel feels his rights have been infringed but Daniel knows he has rights that have been given by God superior to constitutions so Daniel is not intimidated by what the law says Daniel continues to worship and when he is found worshiping contrary to what the constitutional provisions have given Daniel is throwing the lions then but Daniel can't bend or can't find intimidation because of the land's constitution because his allegiance is to a more superior constitution the Lord and so he doesn't mind losing his life and that becomes a very perfect example God sends his angels they shut up the lions mouth the king is worried because this is one of his favorite wakas who is in the lions then the Bible says he doesn't sleep and early the following morning he runs to the lions then and asks Daniel Daniel's servant of the most high God did your God send his angels to protect you Daniel says my God has sent his angels and has shut the lions mouth for as much as there was no fault found in me and that was impressive Daniel is delivered because God intervened in that situation and so one of the other things that we one of the lessons that we learned from the from the experience of Daniel sometimes we may find ourselves being limited or infringed by maybe not the constitution but maybe maybe by individuals who are misinterpreting the constitution or by bosses who want us to do things contrary to our conscience but once we have pledged allegiance to God we commit ourselves to him in prayer let him fight the battles and defend his people thank you very much brother but I know you're going to give me other examples but I just want to highlight something very very important that you've said there and that is really that there was no fault in Daniel and that Daniel was an exceptional wakam I just want to highlight that because that's very important as you go to the example the one of Daniel is very popular it reminds me of the story of Jesus when they wanted him crucified what did Pilates say what wrong has this man done do you see where we are going what wrong has this man done I see no fault in him I see no fault in him and he washed his hands in other words you people you're on your own this guy is innocent the same thing with Daniel he doesn't sleep and he checks and he says this is a stellar if I can say in quotes if I can use the the language that we use now a stellar employee or an exceptional employee and the same with Jesus sent by his father an exceptional human being in the form of a human as he came he did his work of course there were people who were jealous who complained but there was no fault and when he asked what wrong has this man done he saw no fault in Jesus that's very very important as we go to Elian come back for other examples because what we are trying to highlight is also the concept of put yourself in the situation of Daniel or the situation of Jesus in our world today if you're going to ask somebody to respect your Sabbath and you're during the day you're the one who comes late to work during the week you don't respect the laws you don't meet your targets and then you go and ask the boss incidentally I cannot work on Sabbath because what will the boss typically think this is my lazy employee because he may not understand the Sabbath and remember in the constitution we are saying everybody's faith is respected so not everybody knows our faith we've had people even say okay can you go to church for three hours and then come for a meeting people don't understand and those are the things we are going to talk about and that's where we are very privileged also to have a younger person here who can perhaps share with us his experiences as a young person in trying to have his freedom of worship respected I'll come back to you brother and it's interesting when you give the example of Jesus he did all that despite the fact that he knew very well the kind of freedoms that his father has given the people he knew very well his rights as well he knew what he had the ability to do but in order to gain favor with other people he didn't go around bashing everybody else and telling them you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong no that's not what he did I have there's a comment here before I share my experience this is from Judson saying freedom of worship is indeed God given so we must watch that in trying to enjoy it we don't ourselves bridge the same freedom for others correct I think that's a very very important comment from my I would call it my learned senior in another world because what he's saying is and we want you to understand that this is not a right given to you alone and many people sometimes forget whereas we want people to respect our faith we must also respect other people's faith and respecting people's faith doesn't mean you observe what they are saying like a brother Judson has said it means that you cannot stand up in an office and start condemning everybody else and saying the only religion that matters is the SDA religion the rest of you I don't know where you're going the law doesn't allow you to do that incidentally okay so when you want people to respect your faith we want you to be like Dania that no fault is found from you and when we say no fault it doesn't mean that when people tell you to do things which are not biblical that you do them it just means that when it comes to delivery of work you are the people who keep time you are the most honest person so that when people say something about you because there'll be enemies that your boss can say what faults what has this gentleman done Abura you're talking about Abura I don't think so Is that Eli? I don't think so and perhaps Eli as you comment you can also share with me because in preparing you shared with me an example of an experience you went through in your workplace and of course also as we speak about these examples I would like to request that we don't mention specific people and say Jane did this to me in the office of John or in my school we just talk about the principles of law and the principles of the bible obviously you know we are live and we need to do that please proceed and I'd like to tell you and God is faithful if you go to him he will help you in this process the systems are the way they are we are not fighting anybody I happen to every time I have to move to a new department what I do is I pray and I pray a lot and what I really I'm praying for when I'm praying is I am praying that God will talk to that person that I'm going to talk to before I get to talk to them and a lot of young people go through this because they're at the stage where they're just trying to make those steps they're trying to build the foundation which is really important for tomorrow for 5 years to come for 10 years to come and so for some of these young people it's really almost life and death for them some of them have parents back at home who are looking up to them but then you find yourself in this space where you have to you have to open up to the other person so every time I walk into my one time I walked into my boss's office and I'm praying to God and I'm telling God you are the one who is going to speak for me in this instance it is not myself I cannot and when I walked I didn't even have my words planned out walk there and you'd be shocked how reasonable people are you'd be shocked how willing people are to listen you'd be shocked how much somebody didn't know and now that they are aware they are very willing to let you do some of the things you want to do because I walked into the office and I walk out and I'm shocked did that just happen did I just get allowed to have this freedom that we are talking about the day that we hold that we are now trying to hold so dearly so as young people I would advise that yes you may be fearful but God has not given us the spirit of fear you can talk to people and you can talk to people and people can understand but I think one thing that Ellie did not say that she shared with me is that he because he knows he's not able to work on Saturday in an organization that people work on Saturday he comes to work very early very very early work my sat at nine he's there at seven without being told without being told without being told do you understand where we are going so then the employer sits and thinks literally when I calculate the hours and maybe he told me when he works a little bit late so maybe he works two hours more than everybody two or three hours and on Saturday is half day for most organizations that work half day so when he counts five it's ten hours it's ten hours and in the morning people maybe work for four hours are you seeing where we are going yes this is not to say that there are no unreasonable people and we are getting there because they are there and in those circumstances that's when we are saying of course the law is there the supreme law is there to protect you but what we are saying is that you should be you should stand out because every employer wants a valuable employee every school wants students who excel and I'm trying not to talk about specific schools because I've gone through this experience when we had the church case with some schools but there is one national school that had the SDS students do so exceptionally well that a very prestigious national school some of you know them and the headmaster was willing to indulge them because of the performance of those students he said I don't understand this thing of theirs very well but the students are doing very well so it's going to work and Abura is going to share other examples of the Bible but I can also share with your personal experience of mine when I was a student in university I was studying out of the country and I don't want to say too much but in many of this Ovasiska is atheism the western world people are very self-sufficient and they think they are important and you know with due respect to them they are possibly not as religious as we are and so I went to talk to the exams office and tell them okay so the exams on Saturday I cannot sit them and the head of exams said to me why can't you sit them and I said because I'm a 70 adventist and he said what's that he actually never had a 70 adventist you know that's why we say some people don't understand some people think is it one hour is it two hours what is it he had never heard of that so he told me what exactly is that and then I tried to explain to him you know the sub bath is our you know based on the commandments and I went on and on and then he asked me he said are you a Jew because he had heard that the Jews keep the Sabbath so I told him no I'm not a Jew and he said okay I really don't understand what you're saying then he said is there somebody who can sort of this exam situation for you and I said let me ask my pastor so I went and asked my pastor pastor and then in fact I told him I'm sure my pastor has a solution so I went and asked my pastor and my pastor said I will go there nobody had ever asked him so he went to the exams office and he said okay I am the pastor of Pamela and I have other students here I am willing to do there administer the exam and the university gave him the exam and told him okay when they had the exams on Saturday they will be doing because exams are typically 3 hours 2 to 3 hours they will be doing the exam from maybe 1 to 4 on Sabbath I mean on Friday so that we don't do it on that Sabbath like the other students and my pastor came we went to his house and we sat there and we did the exam he gave us the exam of course on the day we had never seen the exam and he was very honest as he should be and he gave us the exam and we sat on his dining table and we did the exam and of course after that we were students and we were broke we had cake and sandwiches done by his wife the shepherdess but he then took the exam to the university on the same day and on Sabbath we just went to church and we just stayed with him the whole day because the exams were being done and of course they didn't want the exams compromised and they had their protocol but are you seeing how even an atheist is willing to understand if you respect people and explain your case but again we said and we will talk about them they are people who are unreasonable and that's when we are going to talk about how the law and remember I talked about the constitution and the case law that now comes in to protect you thank you brother Abura maybe you could share other examples from the Bible also it's actually when you're talking about people who are unreasonable the person who comes to mind is Pharaoh Pharaoh is told by Moses so gentle the Lord wants his people to go and offer sacrifices for him in the wilderness Pharaoh asks a question in Exodus chapter 5 first chapter 2 Pharaoh asks a question who is the Lord? I don't know him therefore I cannot let Israel go so unlike the case of your principal in school Pharaoh says no I don't know him so I cannot engage positively with him yet God had God who bestows this right even before the constitution protects it God who the supreme law giver wants me to respect yours and yours to respect mine Pharaoh infringes on the rights of the Israelites Moses pleads with him for a long time please allow the children to go and offer and worship God freely in the wilderness and for a long time Pharaoh persists God sends plagues in the land Pharaoh insists on his way that his view is also supreme not knowing who is contending against and sometimes you may explain your case so gently as we mentioned but still don't win the case even the Israelites are wondering now our labor is becoming more intense our conditions are getting worse the more our case is being pleaded for so please just allow us to suffer the way we are suffering and continue even working on suffer being coerced to do this because our situation is getting worse but one lesson that we learn is that even in the middest of that coercion God delivered them with a mighty hand and he took them across the Red Sea into the wilderness now it was there it was there a stiff nakedness that now they could not do what God had delivered them to do they have been given the liberty they have been given the space now they were abusing that liberty and space and sometimes it also happens for us that yes your boss gives you the liberty to worship you've requested for sabat of but that sabat you don't even come I'll follow even the service from home somebody calls it from church that we need somebody to serve the boss knows you're inside but you're at home the church is calling you but you're also not responsive so that means that you're just abusing the freedom that you have been given and the opportunity that you've given and that was basically the experience of the children of Israel which had consequences as you had mentioned the supreme law giver will definitely we will be able to bear the consequences of the decisions and the choices that we make the journey for 40 years in the wilderness and none of the persons who came out of Egypt entered the promised land except you Joshua and Caleb they're the only ones who get the privilege and opportunity because of their faithfulness so sometimes the world will not reward your faithfulness or the world will not acknowledge your faithfulness but God in heaven is faithful I just want to share my experience when I graduated from college I got an opportunity to serve as a missionary in South Korea I was delighted and going to a new land before I got even the opportunity out of personal desire I had learnt Japanese language so when I had I was going to Korea I knew I am next to Japan I will definitely make it to Japan I had always admired Japanese people so I went and spent a year in South Korea when I came back from Korea now looking for a job was a difficult assignment actually you are told what experience do you have you have put the experience of mission what mission what value does mission have to the industry to the factory we want people with the experience so one day I get an opportunity and I go for an interview and I was speaking to an asian who got to be my employer then he was impressed that I was able to have experience outside the country and he told me give me two months I will dismiss the person who is in office and I will get you working that was after walking around for two years I will get you working after two months I got that position when I started working I worked imagine 14 days those 14 days there were two sabat which I was not showing up so the following Monday he calls me and tells me we are not seeing you on Saturdays where do you go but the commandment says remember the sabat to keep it holy but the sabat in it he says there are many other religions that wash him I don't understand why you have to go on Saturday please choose any other church we need you on Saturday I pleaded with him and I told him I cannot make it on Saturday let me even work like Ilai I asked let me work even overnight because the machines work 24 hours let me work 24 hours on any given day just to make up for Saturday but you are heading a department and your department is critical on Saturday so you have to be here so he tells me but since we don't I don't want this debate for long I give you one hour go back to your office decide after one hour come back to me and tell me what you have decided after one hour I go back and I say to him I have decided and worship it tells me ok I don't want to dismiss you I feel sorry for you write a letter and say you want to go home and worship so I wrote a letter and said I wanted to go home and worship because I also don't want to make it offensive to him I also understood this situation so I lost my job but since then I have been working in the duakali industry that was 2006 God has provided and God has kept me going since then so everything does not sometimes doesn't have to go right because I have been faithful it must work out because I have pleaded it must go right sometimes it doesn't work out right but we must remain faithful to the conviction that we have had of God and give others that freedom for religion Ferum infringed on their freedoms and Egypt bore the consequences of infringing on others freedoms Thank you I was sharing a story I was remembering a young person who I was talking to before this whom he went for an interview he asked would you be willing to work 6 days a week and he said yes he was an adventist he said yes except he showed up on Sunday and his employer thought this is funny when we said 6 days a week but boss he said 6 days a week he didn't tell me specifically and he didn't have to but there's a question here I think this is really directed to you this is from Susan and she is asking these people we live with and how should we handle them especially those who are not adventists but they also seek worship so I'm sure as you're going through the discussion you might also be talking about how those we live with thank you very much Eli for that so of course we live with people some of them are adventists some of them are not really it depends on you know your discussions with them this is what I have found many SDA homes will typically say we worship on the Sabbath so we would like you to worship on the Sabbath and I know that the people who have testified and even told me that their workers, domestic workers have even been converted because of their example but this comes back to what I think brother Abura and Eli have said which is really your example is so critical because if you're insulting that worker maybe they come from another church you always say evil things about that church you know what I mean the only thing that they see is the Sabbath worship it's even difficult for you to be a testimony for them to want to know your God or to want to understand your Sabbath so the honest is on us to encourage them to meet our people I know I also have a worker driver who during cam meeting would sit in the car and one time I told him just enter Simon and see what happens because I respect his faith he goes to judge on Sunday and he came in and for that cam meeting every single day he came and he kept asking me when is that cam meeting of yours when is that thing how come you're not going as much as you used to you didn't even tell me you know when you go in the evening how come you're not going in the evening but he was very keen but what you cannot do and that's why I said on this panel you cannot force your domestic workers to worship your God that's what the law says and you cannot tell them as long as you live in this house you must do what SDS do that is illegal because remember the law protects everybody's faith if you feel that you cannot work with somebody who doesn't share the same faith that is your decision you then must employ somebody of your faith but you cannot tell maybe your Sunday going worker that I'm sorry here you have to do the lesson with us you have to study with us you have to worship on our day but you can even tell them on Sabbath even if you don't want to come with us to church we are giving you a free day yes here don't work rest rest in your room you can watch our services online feel free to worship you want ready your Bible prepare for your Sunday worship tomorrow but you cannot and I know many members of our church do this you cannot under the law and I'm sorry I have to talk about the law this is religious liberty you cannot force anybody to worship as per your faith that is illegal and it's against the constitution remember article 32 that I spoke about it said that everybody's faith is respected even ours so please remember that I know some people have gone to the labour court there are some people who have shared with me those experiences be very careful when you force somebody to worship your way of course you have the right to employ people who have your faith even that I will help you even as you interview from the church you cannot tell somebody I did not take you because you are not from my faith that could be seen as discrimination so obviously you have to be smart about your choices and the way you do that maybe brother Bura you can share with us another yes yes the story of Esther Esther is put in a privileged position and one guy becomes so jealous because he's been elevated he's called Harman when you read the story in the book of Esther he's called Harman he's been elevated and given a senior position by Ahasueras who's the king of Pasya so he wants to be acknowledged yet the religion of Mordecai who are the Jews Esther's people Esther also has a privilege of working at the king's court does not allow him to bow down and pay allegiance to people his allegiance is to God and God has said in a commandment one of the commandment says thou shalt not worship any other gods apart from me and make unto thyself graven images of anything that is in the heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the waters under the earth you shall not bow down to yourself to them nor serve them because I am a jealous god I visit the iniquities of the fathers upon for the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation so Ahasueras Mordecai and the Jews are faithful to this but Harman wants the Jews to pay allegiance and obeisans to him so the Jews conscience cannot allow it because they are obedient to the laws of God according to scripture so Harman influences and passes a bill to adjust the constitution of the land and this seems to be a very prevalent a big challenge sometimes we feel that in order to deal with people lands have provided constitutions God has given leaders wisdom and they have made wonderful constitutions but then we realize that sometimes when we want to hit out on an individual we change the constitution not knowing that it will affect a greater number of people so Harman is targeting Mordecai but according to this piece of legislation it is going to affect the entire Jewish population Mordecai remembers Esther is our own and Esther is in the palace so he says don't you know that it might be for this reason that God has placed you in that position of authority just go and intercede on our behalf go before the king Esther says how can I do this and that is what we were saying in the beginning we must participate in this legislation because sometimes nobody in that meeting knows us they don't know what rights we have or what how we worship so when the bill is being passed none of us is present so Harman passes it because there was no one present Esther was in her chambers she is just told by outsiders where were you when the voting was being done so it is important that we are also represented and defended and our views expressed in those forums so Esther goes to the king and tells the king that you know our law has been passed that the Jews may be slain and I am also a Jew I am going to be affected by this but then who has passed that law it is Harman the king uses his position of authority and reverses that law and makes it against Harman Harman and his family at the once were killed but basically is that Esther who was in a position of influence and in a position of authority which she had been placed by the providence of God was able to intervene and make a legislation be passed for people I think that is a very important point and you raised something that of course we have had debates with the church even in religious liberty the decision of participating when such things are being determined so when laws are being made in a country there is a call for people to contribute and give their views and I know that for many people they think this is the world what brother Bura raises is very important because what he is saying you have to be there to say your case because who told you that the decision makers understand our faith they also have their faith which is also respected so for example when the constitution is being done we need to when we hear a new constitution coming of course there is not one coming for a long time but when that was happening we needed to have participated actively there were other faiths that participated I don't want to mention them in this forum and everybody was complaining and I was saying why are you complaining you haven't done anything the constitution now protects brother Bura and brother Ella and some people I'm sure I know they went express their views they explained why they were unique and the government had it and it was enshrined in the constitution and it is there in the law of succession and that's why those laws are there to protect them why should we complain we do not do our paper we did not participate as much maybe we decided later on most of the community is coming to complain a little bit late in the day so we should participate from the beginning even when the interfaith people are determining what's going on during covid I know I discussed with many people can we participate and of course there were different views and people felt maybe we shouldn't but then I said when the paper came out and you looked at it the government said ok we've had this discussion with the interfaith people this is what's going to happen remember all those protocols Sunday school will be like this and people said what do you mean Sunday school as we don't do it like that who did you explain because when people are sitting when the Sunday worshipers have gone and said this is how we do Sunday school and regulations and rules have come about to protect the protocols to protect them nobody knows that we have service school from zero to two two to four, kindergarten primary ABC nobody understands that and to sit where we are and expect that whoever is making the decision understands what credit roll AB is nobody does unless they have the same faith even when I tell my friends who are not STS ok we have credit roll AB they are like so how can zero to two understand anything parallel because that's their paradigm and then you explain how they go with their parents in fact they really participate as they grow they start clapping and nodding we are welcome so we need to be involved in contributing in that debate so that when the law comes in when the protocols come in they know that our circumstances are unique and we are accommodated because if they don't know they can't help us but another example I remember just very quickly before I go to brother Eli is the one of Nehemiah when they were in captivity captivity babylon he was the cap bearer and when he went to build the wall he was even sent with resources are you seeing where we are getting at he was supported by the state he was supported by the state so we want you to be such a great worker in your office to be such a great student to be such a great employer that when the decisions are being made in big spaces you go and say hey have you thought about the SDS they do things like this and because you have done so much to contribute to the economy of this country they can say ok ok we don't understand but ok just let us know how exactly you want that to happen just the same way the office can say and I think brother Buddha said sometimes the bosses hands are tied he says you have to go but sometimes he can say ok how are we going to make up for these hours then he is trying to say I come early I do this you go worship there are some bosses who say that so really of course we are saying there are difficult situations but there are circumstances where we have to intervene now I need to go to the case law but I'll just let Ellie say something once and I go to the case law and then brother Bura can come in Ellie? I think it also tells us the importance of being role models and having role models in such spaces because you remember but it was not until Joseph died and a Pharaoh who did not know Joseph came into power the Israelites started having the problems that they had again I know of an example of a school high school kind of man not telling me this that there was a time they had the deputy principal was their patron things were good but at some point when the principal left he left you this deputy because of course when you have somebody doing so much good work where you go you take them so when the new principal who came now did not did not know anything about what it was because of their behavior especially the chairman at the time who was a student by the way chairman of the SDA Club who went and spoke to this new principal he spoke and laid out this thing well for him and how they had been doing it before because apparently when this new principal came the first thing he did was to turn around the timetable and say from Monday to Friday we were result oriented so we were doing classes and classes and classes then on Saturday we test you on what you've been doing throughout the road of course they weren't comfortable with that but in the end it did work so having role models so everywhere you go you leave a mark and you don't just leave a mark for yourself because remember when you stand faithful when you stand for God then when other people see that then they begin to follow in those those footsteps so that when you even leave you're leaving behind people who continue to continue to fight there's a young man here who's giving his testimony as well because testimony is coming flying through the it's called Ferdinand Waching Ferdinand is talking about how he couldn't do some cuts he was doing an online course but he couldn't do some cuts because of time because of the time they were being offered but in the end when he sent an email he was doing an online course so this is a university somewhere overseas but he did send an email and he was allowed in the end to sit to those exams there's some other questions but I'd like to ask you after okay thank you very much Ilana so we are pushing towards just helping our children to realise the importance of being exceptional students and ourselves being exceptional employees and exceptional employers and the Bible talks about many cases where people get favour and as we talk even to our young kids in church the early teens, the collegiates a lot of people think that life is just about work work work work hard get AAAA but to survive in the world you need to get favour all these people in the Bible we are talking about they were favoured because they were great even Jesus grew in favour of man and of God so for our young people we are saying because of your good work by the grace of God in whatever you're doing even for the employees you will get favour from man so when somebody of course sometimes people are unreasonable and you'll be condemned and you may even lose something but also not let us go through temptation that we can handle but many times somebody will say really, Abura how many Aburas do we have? I thought we only have one Abura can't do that and I can't do that and because of that favour sometimes people are willing to indulge and say hey you guys come here for hours and you don't even work this guy I've connected the number of hours he does in his 5 days and he has 10 hours and he gets all those sorts of things so favour from man is important as favour from God we are not saying because favour comes with compromising your faith it is standing out so that you get favour from man so now just back to the law and then we continue with the examples and the questions so I did try as much as possible to simplify the law and of course I spoke largely about the constitution and I explained to you why in the background and I told you about the journey from the independence constitution to the 2010 constitution now article 32, article 27 and article 24 and article 21 those are very very important simply put I hope everybody understood them but I said if you can't remember the legalese is too complicated just try and remember article 32 really which is the key one which protects every person from discrimination based on religion now let's look at the cases the cases are a little complex if you're not a lawyer but I don't think they are that complex so let me try and simplify them of course for these ones I have to read a bit verbatim because this is the quotation of what the judges have said so we have and I told you because we are common world based so I'll talk about some cases in Canada cases in the UK and then I'll come closer cases here and I will discuss even cases that have affected the SDA church so in Canada there's this case called Bashir Singh Multani and Bashir Singh Multani versus the commission of let me just make it very simple somewhere in Kuwek okay I don't want to make it very very difficult for you but this is what the court said in this Kuwek court the court said and I quote this court has on numerous occasions stressed the importance of freedom of religion for the purpose of this case of course the court is highlighting other cases but the court is saying over and over we have emphasised the importance of respecting people's religions and this is what the court said and I quote the essence of freedom of religion is the right to entertain such religious beliefs as a person chooses so you've chosen your SDA faith the right to declare religious beliefs openly you can share your faith openly of course respecting others and without fear of hatred or reprisal and the right to manifest religious belief by worship as we are doing and the practice or by teaching and dissemination okay so we've all understood that so the court is saying we have protected this thing somebody has gone to court to complain about something and the court is saying we have said on numerous occasions that you must do what respect people's freedom of worship okay and the court then goes to explain the circumstances which you must respect it and the court then says freedom means that subject to such limitations as unnecessary to protect public safety so of course you've seen some religions where children are not allowed to take medicine and all those things the court intervenes so subject to the limitations as unnecessary to protect public safety order health or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others no one is to be forced to act in a way contrary to his beliefs or his conscience are you seeing what the courts are saying we respect your faith we have said it on numerous occasions you people are back here again no one is to be forced to act in a way contrary to his beliefs or his conscience even a student even a child even an employer even a prisoner now article 32 I've talked about it about freedom of conscience religion, belief and opinions so I'm not going to emphasize that again let's go to another case by one of our church members now the constitutional provisions that we've discussed above this article obviously there was an earlier constitution highlight the importance placed on one's right to express and manifest his or her religious beliefs and the court said that in Yakama Gekara versus Yatoni general and two others Gekara is our church members he had an issue and he went to the court and the court said that the constitutional provisions that we've talked about highlight the importance placed on one's right to express and manifest his or her religious beliefs okay so I'm trying to simplify it I think we are together isn't it now let me talk about another case then we'll talk about our Kenyan cases very shortly that's a Kenyan case the one of Yakama Gekara versus the AG and two others now there's another case also in the UK this is Lord Nichols he says this is Williamson versus secretary of state for education and skills you can see education space is seriously impacted here and this is what the court says and I'm just going to say a little bit so that I don't overwhelm you with it so let me just read the quotation of the court the court says part of it religious and other beliefs and convictions are part of humanity the humanity of every individual so the court is saying your religious faith is part of your humanity they are an integral part of your personality and your individuality in a civilized society individuals respect each other's beliefs this enables us to live in harmony so in a civilized workplace in a civilized society anywhere the court is saying you have to respect some of these religious beliefs now again back to Kenya there's a very famous case that every constitutional lawyer has done it's called East Africa in Largy Maggy Patel versus Kashan Premji don't worry those are just the names of the parties and in cases we are allowed to say them because now they are in the public domain so once it's reported we are allowed to cite them so this is what the court said the courts as a general rule reframe from likely interfering in the internal affairs of a registered society which has its constitution in respect of how to solve internal disputes so the court is just saying hey you guys you have your own faith you have your own way of sorting out your things don't bring it here for us to sort it out do it the way your church believes it should be sorted out okay so again I'm trying to get the simpler cases in another case called R that is Republic versus Big M Dragmat Limited a section of the court reporting the court said the essence of the concept of freedom of religion is the right to entertain such religious beliefs as a person chooses so your rights to have your own religious beliefs the right to declare the religious beliefs openly so you can tell somebody I'm 7th the Adventist and without fear of hindrance and reprisal and the right to manifest religious beliefs by worship and practice or by teaching and dissemination so that's what the court is saying you have a right to express your faith you have a right to worship and why is it important what the court is saying because that is the law so what the courts are saying is the law saying in terms of statute or the constitution is the law now a very important case this one I have to read it a bit long but it affected our church and so I'd like to share it because I was involved in it so in 2012 that's not so long ago our church piled a case in court which was a petition and the church was representing several students obviously the defendant was the minister of education and the AG that's just a procession that you go and sue them but they are supposed to be enjoying in this sorts of cases and there were certain schools I don't want to mention them although they are in the public domain but obviously were discriminating students I think some of you may have heard of this case so the church our church took issue with the school not permitting the students to observe the Sabbath as per their belief from Friday's sunset to Sunday's sunset remember some schools didn't understand and some of them were able to mediate and they were supposed to but can't they just study then pray or pray then study and some of them said no you have to go on Sunday some of them said no you have to do this is this kind of school but they were saying no allow them to worship from Friday's sunset to Saturday's sunset and we then went and again maybe I need to say this for you to understand so there are different courts I'm sure you know right from the magistrates court then there's the High Court and then there's the Court of Appeal and then there's the Supreme Court so based on the higher court so at the High Court which is where we were the broad question was whether the schools failure to allow SDA students their Sabbath was justified and reasonable under article 24 of the constitution or whether it infringed their rights under the article that I told you about remember the one that protected them now what the church stressed of course through its lawyers or council was that followers are obliged to respect and observe the Sabbath if they are SDA I'm trying to simplify it I hope I'm getting there now in the church's view the schools had violated article 32 remember the one I told you about your right to worship and article 27 the rights of students by either restricting or curtailing the opportunity to observe that practice this is a very very important case very very recent so I'm going to highlight it a bit that's why I'm reading a little bit more so instead these students our students and many of them in very prime national schools were required to attend classes, sit exams, carry out cleaning duties during some of these times and those who registered as absent during the Sabbath or having not done the cleaning exams and all those things attend classes were either suspended or requested to leave the school now this is why it's important to understand what our constitution means remember I told you it's very very supreme and remember we have lost in the high court this where the high court and we are going to lose this case um so I'm trying to simplify it as much as possible so we lost at the high court remember there's the high court then if you're not happy you go to the court of appeal I'm trying to simplify it so we then appealed the court of appeal because many schools say when you came here and you knew this was this kind of religion so you're bound by it I'm sure many of you have gone through that experience or we have decided that we want to be number one and we have to study on these days you know all those things so very very importantly listen to what the court of appeal is saying which is superior to the high court and I'm going to read it very very slowly the court of appeal agreed with the petitioner okay setting aside the high court the high court saying the high court has not made an error here I'm trying to simplify it kii was the appellant courts finding that the schools had directly discriminated against the students by not according them the same treatment as other Christians who observed the Sabbath on Sunday the court went as far as to declare the schools actions as a gross violation of the fundamental rights and freedoms of the SDA students the bench which is just the judges we call them the bench fiercely rejected that particular schools arguments based on institutional autonomy but we were autonomous and provided and we are protected by the basic education the court said that is gross violation of these students fundamental rights and freedoms and the court says that the argument of that particular school perhaps the most prestigious national school in this country I know my friends who went to that school always tell me you didn't go to this school so maybe you know what school that is it's in the public domain anyway the court said the arguments of those particular schools were lame and gloomy and the court said that the students that the argument that the students knew the policy of those schools prior to enrollment did not hold water and finally this is what the court said that Kenya falls short in embracing religious rights in schools in line with that concept and the court once again ordered the Cabinet Secretary of Education to institute a process of formulating appropriate rules to guide schools on religious freedom so the court is saying amen amen the court is saying you cannot discriminate on these students against the students these are their fundamental rights and freedoms protected by the constitution remember I talked about article 32 article 37 you must protect them and you must give them the same rights as you give the students and then the court is saying okay so as there is now we do not want to say too much about it but sadly I think this should because the church should go forward and do this because what the court is saying please don't discriminate these students and to say that they knew the rules when they came here is a name excuse you must protect them and you must give them the same rights as you give other churches okay and then the court is saying okay so as there is now we don't know what the Sabbath thing when it starts when it ends so you people can how it works go formulate the rules and give them to us isn't it and that's what we should do and that's the same thing your employer is saying hey Eli you can't work you just sit there the whole day on Sabbath what do you mean you tell me how are you supposed to pray what can we do to protect you you know what I mean and they then accommodate you and finally because of time we want to go back to the bible examples and the questions very very importantly articles one two three and five of the united nations declaration on the elimination of all forms of intolerance and discrimination based on religion okay this was basically proclaimed in 1981 25th of November so it's number 36 slash 55 it says the following things very quickly article one everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought conscience and religion no one shall be subject to coercion which is first which would impair his freedom to have a religion or belief that is not his okay so you can say article one of the united nations article three I mean article two is saying no one shall be subject to discrimination by any state that any government institution any institution group or person or persons on the grounds of his religion or other belief now very very quickly the last two articles I'm sharing article three discrimination between human beings on grounds of religion or belief constitutes an affronch to human dignity okay so the united nations is saying that if you discriminate somebody you're really rubbing them of their human dignity and article five says the parents or as the case may be the legal guardians of the child have the right to organize the life within the family in accordance with their religion or belief and bearing in mind the moral education in which they believe their child should be brought up in so you see what the UN is saying do not discriminate children parents according to our constitution have this right according to the case law that I've read for you have this right the case law is just the cases and then according to the United Nations declaration also you have a right to choose how your children should worship okay so every child has a right to enjoy the faith that you have selected for them so I've tried to simplify brother it is clear it is very clear and actually what comes out so clearly is that it is possible to find favor from the state the state can defend you many people actually many people and certain religions have always thought of the state being an enemy that it is religion and state are two different entities you don't have to have anything to do with the state but as you mentioned earlier the story of Nehemiah the state supported and some people always even wonder is it okay to receive funds from the state to build a church and if they look like it as it is a sin if you receive anything from the state then you are you are joining hands with the enemy yet the enemy of the church is not the state the enemy of the church is Satan so we need not to look at each other very suspiciously as people having things against me or against the other the bible is so full of examples of how the state has supported people and how the state has even found God's people and granted them favor just as you mentioned and of course the bible always acknowledges it is God made the way when you look at the story of Daniel the bible tells us in Daniel chapter 1 verse number 9 God gave Daniel favor and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs the prince of the eunuchs is a Babylonian but God has made his heart soft and tender towards Daniel so that in any moment when he is dealing with Daniel issues he handles them with favor and Daniel just finds his things working out so indeed you can find favor with state officials so it is not that at any instance the state is only seeking bribes the state is only seeking to make money from you take taxes from you but the state defends also while we are the state so that we don't need to lose the question later there was a question that came in about our daughters and this is parents who are worried our daughters and women who work in Gulf countries and they are not allowed to worship on Sabbath we in Kenya and the laws we are talking about they only go as far as our borders go so then the question is how can we protect those of us our people and how can we work outside another question would be in this country somebody else just said his father was working in the city council and they needed him to go to work on Saturday he quit but because of that quitting he got so many offers he went to work in the American Embassy and for 23 years he kept the Sabbath the question now is this subtle thing even though our same government allows or acknowledges this freedom of worship but somehow certainly there's a requirement for example somebody said some of the trainings offered the ones that offered you the opportunity to grow some of them are held on Saturday in this case what do you advise remember first of all the constitution in Kenya obviously if you go to constitution in some of those states that have those other religions it's a different paradigm and that is why I think God sent moses get them out of Egypt so that now they can do according to my will because in Egypt they can't so in those countries is very difficult but I also want to say back to the issue of mediation and of course they are difficult people and that's why we've talked about the constitution and we've also talked about case law and we've also talked about the ones where now it's too bad you have to live sadly but there are many cases where you have an employer who is so good that you want to indulge them isn't it? I have such one worker who works for recently his wife was unwell and she was unwell for a long time and whatever he does for me he was suffering but I told him in good conscience we will wait until your worker comes because I thought to myself this person gives me such good service when he is here and in the same way even if you are struggling in those countries work so hard but when you engage your employer at least try it may not work as brother Buro has shared with us but when you go and talk to your employer they may be willing some employers even say many people I know Sunday is when I now really rest because for us we work in the weeks but we are involved in church activity some employers will say you can work on Sunday and you are like yes I can work on Sunday he told us one perfect example so in negotiating don't just go there and say I can't explain why I can't remember we even said it's part of your dignity when somebody robes you of your faith explain to them and be such a good worker be such a good student that when somebody thinks he says I want my school to be number 1 in the newspaper I know that's a big deal in Kenya top 10 and all those things how am I going to let brother Ilai go and this is the one we are expecting then you get favor how am I going to let brother Buro go and brother Buro this is the guy who is helping this department so even for those children please encourage them to work hard encourage them to negotiate as much as possible but if it doesn't work unfortunately like brother Buro has said your faith comes first exit and the Lord will open for you like our brother Buro shared we have many examples in the Bible where the Lord opens doors the most example is the perfect one they were so stubborn but in the end the Egyptians are the ones who suffered and the Lord's people were saved so those are the dynamics that you need to consider one more question before I go to brother Buro those the one about now in Kenya yes even though it is enshrined yes of course employers are different they are those who are cheeky and they don't know that you know your rights also so they are those who say you just come so you have to also back again to that you just explain to them and many people actually you know where they understand percentage that they worship on you on Sunday you know most people don't many people don't understand this Sunday thing and many of my friends who even are non-SDAs often when they tell me oh you're an SDA they tell me oh so you don't take tea, you don't take coke that's what they understand about SDA you don't need meat really we are beyond that you know what I mean and it's for you to explain to them and remember and important thing brother Buro has said it and I think I've said it over and over if you are not SDA you are going to hell that is your paradigm that is even not biblical Jesus spoke to the Samaritans Jesus spoke to the Pharisees Jesus spoke to the lady who put the ointment on his feet a person who perhaps if he walked into many churches today that lady people would say you look so inappropriate with your long hair please don't even enter Jesus spoke to those people who are not welcome by the community he spoke to the lepers remember go and see no more so really these people by embracing them by our example we are bringing them to Christ and I think by our fruits we should be the Bible says by their fruits you shall know so our fruits should be so good that somebody comes and says brother Buro I've noticed you a bit different so they leave it as to which religion then you say I'm a Christian which Christian oh is that what they do you might bring somebody more to the faith that way by your example than by condemning them and by talking about your religion as being supi yes actually so we were talking about about the state and the benefits you can drip when the state is still serving is still serving you as a people so it is not always so we've seen that case in Egypt that the state was against protecting the rights of the people and it was not giving them an opportunity to worship and we are also told that at the end of time the state will be against and will infringe on the rights of the people but while we still have time we take advantage of the opportunity and the privileges that we have in order to be able to worship God according to the dictates of our conscience because the Bible tells us when you read the book of Revelation at the end of time and that is why many people have a beef with the state when you mention the state they think you you started forging alliances with the state and the state is going to be against us yet the Bible is replete with examples of how the state supported even reconstruction of Jerusalem and reconstruction of the temple and the state of passions who know nothing about that God but he says these people have favor and they go and repair the temple I just wanted to emphasize that indeed as much as is possible and as much as things are still working we need to work in harmony and not alienate ourselves from constitutionalism the process of making the constitution and be ignorant of anything constitution or anything that the state is doing but again it's also important for us to acknowledge that the Bible tells us that at the end of time there is going to be a great power that is going to arise and the Bible says you will have great power that he is going to give life to other institutions and other organizations that they will infringe upon the right of the people that whoever will not worship the image of the beast according to Revelation 13 verse 15 there is also going to be death decrees but these death decrees are not unique to that time we have seen that Daniel faced a death decree but it remained faithful so you whatever situation you find yourself faithfulness is the key as the Bible tells us without faith it is impossible to please God he that comes to God must first acknowledge that there is a God in heaven and that this God in heaven diligently rewards people who seek him so whatsoever circumstance you find yourself when it is when it is possible live in harmony with all men for without that it is impossible to seek God so we are told about the power that is going to come at the end of time verse 16 says and that people will receive the mark in their right hand or in their foreheads and that whatsoever and that they should not be able to buy and sell so even the economic right are going to be infringed but until then please live in harmony with everyone around you and also don't infring on their rights don't impose your religion as much as we have been able to study today don't impose your religion upon them because everyone has a right given by God the creator and he is the one who is a faithful judge thank you brother brother Abura excuse me I think a very very important thing as we close that brother Abura has said again is the state is not our enemy even these schools are hardly our enemies it's very very important and I keep saying this that you need to be in a position of power to make a difference we have had people in the Bible examples of great people look how he received favor because of who he was he was able to get closer until they came you know this issue isn't it we have Pharaoh Pharaoh was I mean to the Israelites and Moses was favored remember he was favored remember who raised him he had favor on God actually even before Moses walked out of Egypt he was destined to be the next Pharaoh you see there we go but because he committed murder he ran away absolutely thank you for that look at Joseph position look at Esther's position are you seeing what we are saying that cannot say as we cannot mix with anybody we just decide the constitution will take it as it is and then when the process is over and we are now complaining how come this faith was given this still late in the day who knew your faith but when you sit and participate actually we can't do it that way because for us even during covid our children are different you know there's different classes so can we even tell you how we think this can work and if it's agreeable with the state of course we've said what happens when they don't cooperate so really I think brother Bura has emphasized that from experience that state is not your enemy you can work with your state you need to be in a position of power to be able to support your faith and even encourage people from your example to join your faith there are many examples an elder was telling me actually my father about the influence that the late Simeon Nya Chai had in protecting the Sabbath for worship many people don't know that he had a lot of influence and when he was told he assisted because he was in a position of power and he said this day must be protected for those who want to worship many of us don't know that because he was in a position he was able to do that for us so let's be in positions where we can help in making decisions let us if we are in schools let us be the students where the headmistress says I don't think any or any I could have been involved in that in an employment place let your employer say I Abura definitely not one of those so that then when we ask for favor from man we get it because of our good roots maybe we can just take one more question and then we close with prayer and finish this is interesting somebody was asking about what do you do if your children choose a different faith that's a good one that's a good one so basically of course under 18 there are minors and so you are able to influence their faith and really you have the power to guide and this sounds bad then I'm sure my daughter would help me for saying this you have the power to decide what faith up to 18 because there are minors and the Lord doesn't think that they have the capacity to make decisions really they can't at least you know they might see something good they can't but once they become adults the law protects them remember this law protects everybody in other religions so once they reach the age of majority we pray they keep our faith that's what we know isn't it but you can't force them and if you force them actually the constitution protects them all this case law protects them the United Nations declaration the one against discrimination based on religion everything protects them so once they become older we hope that because of God's promises that we raise them in the way they should go and when they are old we pray but unfortunately the way the law of the land is once somebody becomes an adult you cannot force them to worship your way of worship and I say Pamela I actually grew up in such a family and in the end I remember what finally convinced my parents do what you're doing is when one time I refused to attend certain classes on sabat this is university refused to attend certain classes on sabat and I read those for that exam myself and after doing the exams I remember friends of mine who were at the exam and we were talking so what did you score when I told them they were shocked I should have just read the paper with you together on the need for attending classes and my parents saw that we were like ok fine you know what there's a very good piece of advice here given by Mary let our behavior preach remember we are letters read by the cloud people surrounding us these people should be preached to by how we behave and it's preaching without preaching amen thank you for that Mary that's a very valuable comment so what I'm going to do is just ask my panel one one comment each and then I will close just because you can see time is against us my last comment will be this there are two individuals who nothing is mentioned against them in scripture at all that is Joseph and Daniel they are not pastors they are state officers but there is no word of condemnation we know Moses murdered somebody we just mentioned we know David and Uriah we know about many other people and Paul says all of us have seen and fallen short of God's glory but against Daniel and Joseph though they were state officers nothing bad is mentioned against them so we can be faithful to have a position many people always think when you work with the state you have to be corrupt you have to do things you have to bend rules but you can be faithful and still work in harmony with the state as long as it does not infringe upon the rights that God has given us thank you very much brother Burra brother Eli the last comment from you I think I will direct this to the young people please do not be afraid do not fear because the Lord who is faithful do also be faithful towards you young people fear missing out so you find people doing certain great things on Saturday do not fear missing out when you are in church you are not missing out in fact you are doing the thing that is really the most important thing in the end this is what this is the most important thing so learn how to interact with people learn how to speak for yourself and most of all learn how to let God speak for you amen thank you very much so just very quickly for me maybe 10 seconds to just close time is against us so I just want to conclude and assure you that your right to worship is so respected by the state that is in the supreme law and remember I said no law can contradict the constitution and if it does if it is inconsistent with the constitution it is null and void to the extent of that inconsistency including laws in the workplace laws in schools laws wherever you work etc so the right to worship freely is enshrined in the constitution fundamental right to freedom article 32 as I close then also very very important is that this freedom because you are right to live to speak and to act peacefully in private and public and also there are numerous cases I spoke about cases in Canada cases in the UK cases in Kenya those cases are laws so they are there to protect you and also article 1 2 3 and 5 of the United Nations declaration on the elimination of all forms of intolerance and discrimination based religion is there to protect you so there are so many laws when I come back to the law that are there to protect you actually even in the main law the supreme law of the land I've said the United Nations declaration against this discrimination the numerous cases that we have discussed there are fantastic examples that we have heard from the Bible from brother Burra and brother Ellie so let us worship God without fear or favor but let us stand out so that by our fruits we shall be known and that we shall bring people to our faith God bless you very much and I'm sorry that we have rushed but time is not on our side thank you very much brother Burra you can pray then we sing for a session let us pray our father which is in heaven thank you so much for the freedoms and the liberties that you've given us as a people father indeed we acknowledge the role the state plays in helping us have an environment where we can worship you in spirit and in truth Lord we've also acknowledged that there are other jurisdictions where this is not acknowledged but father whatsoever jurisdiction we will find ourselves we pray that through the power of the Holy Spirit we will know that we will only worship the Lord and him only we can serve father in heaven indeed we pray for our sisters who are working in jurisdictions where they are not allowed to do things in harmony with your will we pray father just as you intervened in the Bible examples that we have seen please intervene on their behalf because there is nothing impossible with you and you can make ways even where there seem to be no way we commit them into your hands there are also others in this nation who are also going through same challenges and experiences based on the institutions where they are serving or working or going to school we pray O dear Lord that you may also intervene for them and that they will also know that you can make ways even where there seem to be no way that they may have confidence in you as being the Lord over their lives father in heaven indeed we are thankful for the government leaders and the administrators who have helped us to be able to continue acknowledging and worshiping you according to the commandment that you have given us the commandment of the fourth commandment to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy we pray O dear Lord that you may continue preserving them in those offices we also pray for the government of the day which is working to protect and preserve the rights of individuals as safeguarded in the constitution Lord we continue praying that you will give them wisdom as they lead this great nation father in heaven indeed we have also read from the scriptures that a moment is coming when we will not enjoy the rights and privileges that we are now enjoying we pray that until then father you will keep us from falling that when you come again you will present us before your throne and your majesty without fault and without blemish as we have seen in the examples of Daniel in the examples of Joseph because we ask these things believing and trusting in the name of Jesus we pray amen thank you very much I believe we've all been blessed and enlightened with that wonderful discussion on religious liberty and we will now put that knowledge into good use going forward as we end this afternoon session would end it with song number 109 Marvelous Grace song number 109 Marvelous Grace I'd like to invite all of us to stand as we sing this song let us rise with song number 109 let's sing Marvelous Grace song number 109 Marvelous Grace song number 109 Marvelous Grace word of the grace may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ love of god and the fellowship of the holy