 With hindsight, we should never have negotiated with Bandit, says Governor Massary, while Sheikh Gumi says we shouldn't use military force on Bandits. Plus, INEC is insisting on electronic transmission of election results for the National Assembly as other ideas. Well, this is cross-politics and I am Mary Annaclone. The Katsina State Governor, Amino Massary, has said that the benefit of hindsight is government should have never negotiated with Bandits, let alone grant them amnesty. Meanwhile, Islamic cleric Sheikh Ahmad Gumi has declared the recent military force going on in Zamfara State against the Bandits and herdsmen as counterproductive. Well, let's get to talking about this. Joining me to discuss this is political commentator Adene Kounu, security expert Dixie Nassajie and social reformer Andy Apotive. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you for having us. Great. So I'm obviously going to start with you, Dixie, because you're a security person and we have been going at this issue of insecurity for months. I think we spoke just I think last week about another recent happening, you know, in terms of banditry. But let's look at Governor Massary's perspective. He seems to be taking some steps back and of course looking at the situation. And he obviously is saying that if they had handled this better, we probably wouldn't have been where we are today. But yes, with the benefit of hindsight, we now know that what had previously transpired shouldn't have. But where do we go from here? Thank you very much, Mary-Anne, for having me this evening. Of the truth, I believe the recent way of Governor Massary, you know, some time last year we sent some warnings to him that he must be very careful in negotiating with these criminal elements, because bargaining with the devil is a sign of weakness. When you want to bargain with the devil, you must be prepared for two entrapments, psychological entrapment and emotional trap. You can't trust negotiating with terrorists to yield more results. These guys are their devil, they deserve to be eliminated. And I agree with the governor now because he can't negotiate with terrorists. Even if you want to negotiate or bargain with the devil, you must bargain on the side of strength and not on the side of weakness. But here, our government, we are very quick in bargaining with these guys on the side of weakness, on the side of weakness in the essence that these guys that are holding us hostage, we don't have anything to hold back to cause them to surrender, cause them or push them to the wall. So when we want to bargain with these guys, we must bargain from the side of strength. Just like what is happening is that for a state now, the high-powered military compartment is really, really yielding results in the North West. I am in touch with the operations there, and I'm so proud of the military. This is the military I know. This is the military I understand. And this is the military I serve. So for me, I think the decision the governor made some few years back was erroneous, but I'm happy as taking a departure from such decision. They must go back to the drawing board and draw a line on how to tackle this bit of insecurity. But Mary Ann, I must tell you for free, that anything that poses threat to human life must not be substituted, must not be replaced. It must be eliminated. And that is what the military and the government needs to do. They must eliminate the threats. Talking before we even get to the elimination part of it, because I mean this is not a normal warfare. This is more like a guerrilla warfare. But before we get to that part, you talked about the governor retracing his steps and the fact that you're in agreement. But these bandits have become used to being either negotiated with or getting monies. And that's why they've even gotten into high-level kidnapping, which is now the order of the day, especially for a state like Kaduna state, where they keep doing it because they know that people will keep paying. How easy will it be to take a step back now when they already know that, look, they're used to the monies. They know that no matter how long it takes money, it's going to come to them. How easy will it be to draw that line in the sand and say we're no longer doing this? And if you do take that position, you have to have other plans in place, don't you, to be able to deal with these guys because they will always look for other ways to try to entrap the government or even the people in the states to still continue to find a place or grounds for negotiations. Well, Mary-Anne, that's an intelligent question. But let me assure you that to the end of time, criminality or crime can never be eliminated. We're going to live with crime to the end of time, understand? But one thing about crime is that we must mitigate such crime to as low, as reasonable, acceptable in a given society. For me, if the government or the government of Kaduna state is restricting this stuff, it's a good one. But coming by your question, how are we going to kick off these guys? Haven't exposed them to some monetary inducements? Well, it's very, very easy and sometimes tactical. Tactical in the sense that the government needs to declare war against these guys. Yes, we're going to pay the price to preprise, but some people will pay the price that we must declare. Because if we don't eliminate this now, Mary-Anne, Nigeria is going to be the capital world of kidnapping. As it is now, I think Nigeria is the capital world of kidnapping, because I will see most of this criminal element, illegally transporting our students from school, over 100, 200, 300 people will be transported at the same time in a given society. I wonder if we're still in the country called Nigeria. But let us not write Nigeria up. Nigeria will still bounce back. But for us to bounce back, we must call it speed. We must also ensure that we fit in on, onboarding our criminal justice system that will be able to take care of most of this criminal element. And also, finally, we must also look at decimating these guys. The government must decimate them by day, decimate them by night, deny them sleep by day, deny them sleep by night. When we give them this high-powered decimation, I think we'll be able to mitigate the high level of the kidnapping. Talking about going back to the elimination that you were making reference to, can you really eliminate the type of terrorism that we are facing today in Nigeria? I mean, we know it has become a hydro-headed monster of sorts. It's metamorphosed into different things, known gunmen, bandits, and even Boko Haram in itself is on the other side of the Northeast. So can you outrightly say you are totally eliminating it? Decimation, yes, to an extent. Knowing what is happening within Nigeria and the kind of terrorism that we're experiencing, and of course, the gun running right down through the Sahel region, it is easy to really just eliminate it. For sure, yes. Securities are achievable. Securities are achievable. Nigeria, if you look at the ethnography of Nigeria, we're sitting on a nine-round, 23,000 square kilometers. Zambala state is, I think, the fourth largest state in Nigeria, and Karsena state is also having a high-powered landmarks. So when we talk about elimination, we're not talking about the military or the government going out to eliminate them immediately. We are talking about the threat here. Anything that poses threats to human life must be eliminated. Eliminate such threats. Don't allow that threat to flourish. Don't allow that threat to grow day by day. Not allowing the threat to grow by day is to draw the line, say, hey, guys, we are not going to pay ransom for criminality. We are not going to pay ransom for kidnapping of Nigerians. Well, I was born and bred in the North. I schooled in Sokolu state, and over 35 years ago, I can still remember the days of the Metasinia insurrection. So Nigeria has not been faced with insurrection just of this recent years. It's just a long-time failure of our leaders. That is why we have arrived at this stage. So for us to eliminate this threat, we must draw a line between the Nigerian state and this criminal element that, hey, this country is a no-no when you go after Nigerians or you kidnap Nigerians, that penalty is a consequence. And in the exception of that, but also to achieve this as well, we need to also look at border security and also securing the state borders and the national borders. Because a borderless nation is a known nation. A borderless state is a known state. If we are carrying out activities or kidnapping activities against these guys and our border and our state borders and national borders are for us, we're just like we are fighting an empty war. So we must come out with all components. The political component must be applied, the military component, tactical, strategic components, and administrative component. The administrative component here is that, hey, there must be policies and procedures drawn by the state government to ensure that this criminal element does not excel and flourish in their criminal activities. Enough is enough, man. They can't just hold the Nigerian government hostage. We have the army, we have the navy, we have the airports, and some group of criminal element are holding a great nation like Nigerian hostage. He said, no, no, they must be eliminated from strategic and the tactical point of view. Now that we see a governor, Massary, owning up to the fact that he was wrong in believing that bandits were truly repentant, do we see a governor, El Rufai, who also falls in that category of negotiating with bandits, paying monies to these bandits and causing there to be even a conduit of sorts between these bandits and the government? Do we see him shifting grounds? Because we also know that Kaduna has become a serious kidnapping field for these bandits. I see the part of them shifting ground because the two governors in the previous time have been like a classic card in administration of their, in administrating our security policy in your state. I think that they were scared or maybe afraid of these terrorists. I don't know the reason why, but they have seen the imminent threat and danger. This is posing to the state and survival of the people of their various states. And all the state governors, I am happy with their actions now because they've seen that, hey, these guys are coming home, coming home in this essence, that these guys are really coming back to even hit at this governor's family, Senator's family. Last two weeks, Senator Son was killed in Kaduna State. Yes, Kaduna State has one of the highest powers of the military. We have most of the military institution in Kaduna State. I was trained in Kaduna State. We have the Nigerian Defense Academy. We have the Dept of Nigerian Army. We have Air Force Institution and other military formation. And most of these very, very, very threats happening in the, in Kaduna State should have given the military within that environment in order to have carried out the risk management processes. But they were so relaxed and this criminal element went to the Nigerian Defense Academy. The pride of our military keyed to some officers in the military academy and cut away one of the senior officers. That was an aberration of the Nigerian Defense Academy. That was a shame to the military media. But it's not too late. I have advised them to carry out a risk assessment of the defense academy and ascertain what the problem is and the military analysis to profile a mitigation factor so that such kind of shameful act does not transfer the game. Kaduna State, they must also, the governor should fall back to his chief secret officer to advise him on combating terrorism. You know, it's not the duties of governors to just come on board and speak. Let them fall back to professionals to advise them on the processes in which they will be able to carry out mitigation factors and war against these bandits or terrorists. Because there are terrorists anyway, because you rightly say that we call them bandits or non-gun men. We must have called it some group of people or non-gun men. They are non-gun men. When you call them a non-gun man, that is with the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of our security agents. You need to max these guys for us to know that truly they are non-gun men. So for max them, they go after these guys and telling you, I know the capacity of the military, the military are capable, but I want them to stop this friendly march. I'm sure that you're saying that the military is capable. In terms of what? Because I have spoken with retired military officials, Air Vice-Mashals and all of that. And most of the time I'm talking about the fact that the military is over stretched, the fact that they are fighting on different fronts. And there needs to be more an increase in manpower. There needs to be an increase in the wages of these people, welfare and every other thing that they need, including the guns and the ammunition that they need to fight this war. So when you say the army is capable, I'm not in any way trying to say that the army is not capable, but what is the strength of the army as opposed to the kind of war, the warfare that they're faced with? Okay, Mary-Anne, this question is really, really diplomatic. And sensitive. Sensitive in the sense that, oh yes, when the Boko Haram incident sprang up in 2009, the Nigerian government were quickly projected at the military. The military might, you don't just project the military at any given situation. That is mismanagement of the military. In the past 12 years, the Nigerian military has been mismanaged by our government and that is regrettable. And that's why they are overstretched. Overstretched in the sense that not that they don't have the capacity or the ammunition to decimate these criminal elements. But I have seen an absence in political will. I have seen an absence in motivation, like Raki said, about some generous weapons that we don't have. Also seen an absence, you know, in enlisting the soldier and retaining the family. Enlisting the soldier and retaining the family simply means that every child of a soldier must be taken care of. Every wife of a soldier must be taken care of. Mary-Anne, when you go to most of the military barracks across the country, it's so sad to let you know that we have a lot of widows at our military base. What is it caused? Because it was because the military really did not go out fully geared up to neutralize these criminal elements. But for me, it's not too late. But yes, we must also look at the Amazon ammunition. Okay, but Mary-Anne, may I show here that Amazon ammunition perhaps might not eliminate terrorism, except you look at the live web. Because in a giving war, we have the live web, we have the software, we have the hardware. Oh yes, we kind of project more funds for the live web and the hardware. What about the live web? The live web of the soldiers. So once our government starts looking to the welfare of soldiers, I am telling you that they will take the criminal elements. I also spoke to a retired officer in the military who spoke about particularly what's happening in Kaduna State. And he pointed that the major problem in Kaduna State is the lack of synergy between government and security agencies. He made, I remember very, very vividly when he said that the government seems to be speaking a different language as opposed to security agents in the country. And this is why it's very difficult to put an end to the situation there. So I ask again, do you think that Governor Elriff might want to retrace his steps and not just about the issue of negotiations with these sorry bandits? Do you see Governor Elriff working with security operatives and not just talking tough, but going back to the drawing board to see what they can do to deal with the situation? Because like I said, Kaduna State keeps churning out numbers of people. Either they're being kidnapped from schools or they're being kidnapped from hospitals. I mean the list is endless. If a government seems not to be in sync with security operatives, does that not make their job even tougher? Oh sure, it makes their job tougher. But for Governor Elriff, I have closed the monitor that Governor for some few years back. And I observed some few years ago. I had really predicted what's happening now in Kaduna State because the Governor sometimes was slowing down in acting against this criminal element and sometimes makes some statements that are really worrisome. Well for me, I'm not taken by those statements. It's bygone. But I want to believe that see what is happening. It's the total failure to its leadership. It's the total failure to the state of Kaduna State. We must also understand that the military are subjected or submitted to civil authority. But the fact that the military are submitted to military civil authority does not mean that they don't have their own what they call political will to engage with this enemy that are posing threat against the General State. Because if the military want to sit down back at home and awaits the Governor to give them orders or the President to give them orders before they carry out any actions against criminal activities within Kaduna State will keep on using more lights. We need to fall back to that administration procedures in the sense that we need to dry line what should the military do in the case of threats? What should the military do in the case of any given situation? Do they have to wait for the Governor to give them an instruction? Do they have to wait for the President to give them an instruction? Oh yes, before the military are called on board to carry out any internal security threats, that threat must have been empowered in the presence of the general police because the general police are so irresponsible in mitigating crime across the state. But I'm sorry to say I love the general police, but I've seen most of the general police in action being transactional policing system. They are really not doing effective policing duties, are protecting the highlights, escorting on the highlights and leaving the general people at risk. So the general police need to be revamped. I must say they choose we need to fall back to police but we hear this all the time, Mosaje, we hear this all the time. Every time we have a new inspector general police, we hear about police reforms. So the police is going to be rebranded, or they're taking off all the checkpoints and then in less than a month it's back to status quo. As we speak, there's so many complaints in Lagos alone about police harassment all over again. The same issues that led to the NSAS movement is repeating itself. So you telling me that the police needs to be revamped is like pouring water on the back of a chicken, isn't it? Oh sure, I'm very angry, you see. Policing duties are achievable. The two problems the Nigerian police have been faced with. Just like you rightly said, each time we have a new IG, some IG will come on board, fire for fire, bullet for bullet, head for head, eye for eye, two for two, such. Calling does not mitigate crime. We are talking about actions and police procedures are put in place. One of the problems the Nigerian police are suffering from is command negligence. Just like you rightly said, command negligence, in the sense that we are not holding our police leaders accountable or incident that are transferring, you understand? So the Nigerian police must be heard accountable, be respect of harassment by some police. Oh yes, that's not just say the Nigerian police in totality. You will have some excellent police officers. But most of the problem we are facing is from the lower card. I think that's where discipline comes to play. The Nigerian police are suffering from fire, lack of fire discipline. At any given time, a policeman one point is gone at you. At any given time, you want to harass you with his guns. You don't try that in the military. In the military, you point your gun at any civilian. You'll be dismissed from service. I know that for sure. Then we need to revisit discipline in the Nigerian police and also revisit command negligence. Command negligence in the sense that every DPO from the grassroots must be heard accountable for the misconduct of their men. And IGP should not just come and outclass them. After one month, like you rightly said, inform us. So when everybody must come and vote, we will show the Nigerian police. All right. Well, thank you very much, Osaje. I'm going to leave it there. Thank you so much. Dixon Osaje is a security expert. Apologies to our other guests. We're having internet connection issues and we're not able to have them join this conversation. Thank you so much, Dixon, for being part of this conversation. Thank you and thank you for all you do for the Nigerian All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we return, we'll talk about the National Assembly stands on electronic transmission of resort and where I may also stand on this issue. Stay with us.