 I saw like one of the projects you worked on, Get Her Place, Sweaterify, and it kind of amazed me that looking at code from a sort of artistry point of view, like code as an art form or as a medium and what you think about that. Yeah, so like the Sweaterify was basically browser-based way to experiment and test the knitting pattern and then kind of visualise it in front of you before you actually spend time on knitting stuff. The way I came across was that when I was making knitting pattern, knitting come in two forms. It's like a graph paper, pretty much visualise the blueprint of what it's looked like or it comes in like form of written instruction. So it's, you know, cast on this much stitches and then knit this pattern, it's in like a written language. And what I noticed was that it is really close to code, it was very much knitting code. So I was like, oh, I can just pull that into, you know, my JavaScript. I was a JavaScript developer back then, so, you know, I can do it in JavaScript. And that's how that it kind of got started. But then I realised that I can quickly iterate my creative process because it is in code and it's like all the valuables are all in, you know, in the place. I can tweak the valuables, I can see what it's like in, you know, 100 different versions and I find it really interesting. Then I discovered like a creative coding community that does like a generative art. So it's, the art is the output, but then they write code and they kind of like experiment with different algorithms and tweak the valuables and then like see what happens. It's like really different approach from software engineering. In software engineering, I worked as a software engineer. It's just like, you don't really want unexpected result. There was a target that you need to hit. It's all defined and then you write a code for it. But then when you think about the coding as a creative process, you kind of start to introduce like a fun to like, oh, what if I change that to negative one? And the fear of the unknown, right? You're embracing, I know I want to create something interesting, but I have no idea what that is. And then you just let the sort of the pieces fall where they may. I mean, how do you go about sketching that stuff? Because I mean, from when a designer, I mean, I can't design a browser. I just, I don't understand how anyone can, not necessarily literally sketching could be anything like writing code, comments, whatever. But I mean, how do you, because that's the best, if I find so difficult to understand is I look at the code and it looks like looking at the matrix. I don't understand how you get from, it's almost like, you know, write code, question mark, profit. Do you know what it means? It's like, how do you actually get to, what's the process of actually designing the thing? Designing the thing. So I feel like there was like iteration, like, you know, they let anything with anything, there was like a iteration of stuff. But I started with paper, actually, so I have an idea. If it was, I was creating like some kind of art, a visual or something, I would go for like, I want to have this circle on this page or like, you know, kind of like a visual set. I like, I pretty much, it comes from like a visual mindset. So I can't start from logic. I just start from like, here's the thing I want to see on the screen. Glanted, it will not end up like that at all at the end. But then I get to code after I have like some basic ideas of how my visual wants to look like. And then there is like another design iteration of negotiation between whatever technology that I'm using, usually browsers and, you know, JavaScript and web API that like, I thought I wanted to make this interaction on paper, but it doesn't really work on browser because I changed the medium and that's my medium. And negotiation between technology and my creativity of like, can I, how can I achieve what I wanted to do in my head on this medium that is usually built browser for me. And sometimes it's impossible or sometimes it's not reasonable to do the interaction that I thought I want to make on my head or paper and I'm like, all right. And then sometimes I discover like a new API or like a new thing in browser and being able to like, oh, actually I can change that. This is quite interesting. I can change my original design to do something different. So it's usually ended up like a completely different thing from what I originally sketched, but I quite enjoy the discussion and negotiation between technology and me. Yeah. Kind of like a game of like, I have this plan. Can I do this in browser and will browser let me do this? If not, can I find a loophole? Is there like, you know, kind of clearing up the level? I'm playing a game basically with the technology, trying to discover what is possible and what is it? But I mean, also you can often take lessons learned from that. Yeah. I mean, it may not be like you're doing some generative pattern, but it's like a technique or coding thing that you can bring back in, which is like, you know, invaluable, right? Totally. Totally. I learned so many things that I like code snippets that I like ended up using in my production code for my job, you know, it's. So do you recommend knitting as a way to learn how to do it? I do. It's quite a lismic, quite algorithmic process. It's I recommend anybody to do it. It's quite binary knitting. I'm going into super geeky stuff. But in knitting, there's two versions of stitches, which is like pulling the yarn from the back or pushing the one from front. And that creates like a different face of a knitwear. And the combination of that creates complicated patterns. So it's basically binary and how you all inch that binary and how you repeat that binary pattern becomes the the final product. So it's it's when you're designing the knitting pattern, it's quite like exercise of defining the algorithm to get to this pattern for a designer to get to learn how to sort of see code as like paint or whatever. What's the developers of just embracing the unpredictable? I mean, what advice would you give to them? So I think every time I like to create projects, the question I get or the feedback I get is like, so what? Or what does it do? How is it useful? Right. And like getting over that, those like a mentality of like, if you do code, you have to make a useful tools that everybody's going to use and get so many GitHub stars and you get VC funding and start a startup. I'm like, you don't need to aim for that. You can just use coding as a creative expression to, you know, fix the creative muscles. And once you like thinking about like what I'm making, it doesn't have to make money. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to help somebody else. This is purely for my fun and discovery. Then it gets a lot easier to experiment. It gets a lot easier to, I don't know, get into code and just like, you know, make 100 different versions that is not tracked on GitHub. That's totally fine. Providing a performing experience is something that requires, you know, close collaboration between two sides. Like, I don't think I'd ever seen skeleton screens as a concept until I started reading like blogs that designers are working on. Yeah.