 Well, hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Dr. Jill live this at least here in Boulder, Colorado rainy afternoon. I am delighted to talk to kasha Dr. kasha kinds today and I'll introduce her in just a moment. Many, many, many of you out there are dealing with chronic complex illness and one of the roots of much of the suffering is this virus at steam bar and Dr. kinds has become an expert in a teacher and a trainer in this field and I'm super excited to pick her brain today. Like I said in just a moment I'll introduce her. But in the meantime, you can go watch any previous episodes you tune itunes, Stitcher anywhere you see podcasts, and be sure and like subscribe and leave a review because that helps us reach more people. Okay, so without further ado, Dr kinds is a CEO and founder of EBV global Institute, she's an authority on recovery therapy for chronic Epstein bar author, she's a wellness expert in a highly respected doctor of clinical nutrition. Since 2005, she has built an international reputation as a functional nutritionist for being sought after by john Hopkins University to the ground breaking Amazon bestseller book, Epstein bar virus solution. She's developed the not only proven and evidence based methodology for a complete long term recovery from EBV. She's been teaching a highly effective EBV, EBV recovery program for people suffering from the virus and provides turnkey trainings for medical doctors and other practitioners. I love that you are advocate for debunking all the misinformation out there we're going to dive into some of that. And even you and I had this wonderful dialogue by email before we got started on you know what about this and you said maybe I don't use this night I love this, we're going to pick your brain today. I could say so much more but I want to get right into it so welcome welcome thank you for coming on the show. I am so honored I am so honored to finally meet you in person so yes, I am delighted to be here. I always like to start we all have kind of a journey of how we got into this specific area. Tell us a little bit about your journey into clinical nutrition and then eventually into Epstein bar how did you get to where you're at right now. I'm not a wounded healer. But I had a very different career very fulfilling. I moved to the States literally after my 30th birthday, which was 27 years ago from Poland. I fell in love. And so after two years that didn't work and I was approaching 33 and think what do I have to do. What do I want to do I grow up a new culture and new home and new life I literally moved with two suitcases my guitar, my two hats and my cat. And cassettes with music and five bags that I saw that I made with books that that's that was my journey. And so, and so what I came up with was naturopathic medicine, just healing I, I read a lot I listened to a lot of alternative radio which was from Colorado. Yeah, it was that. Yeah, that was awesome. It was no in the 90s. And so I spent my focus time, no going. I still I was teaching at the university in my previous career, but I was pursuing prerequisites and one prerequisite to go for Andy program at Bastier. And the segue the second I hit, hey blood can't. What am I doing. The bottom line is nutrition is foundation as groundwork in its medicine so I flipped so I had another year of prerequisites. I was the best decision so I did that training master degree and I was lucky enough that I had a choice not to become a dietitian. Thanks goodness because now they don't have that choice anymore. Leadership leadership has changed politics has changed. And so just like you, you know, on the trajectory when we commit to clinical practice and I've been doing this. I've had private practice always almost 20 years full time. So attention is like piano playing constantly doing constantly doing. So, and it probably happened to you you get more and more complicated cases nobody wants to be called this but that's what we call this so I apologize to the audience but complicated cases when you hone in on your skills and you're really good at what you do and you both try your best you're doing everything that functional medicine says even before functional medicine was the thing you know we were doing the right thing, and I would hit the wall. And we would be frustrated together. And so that took me to, you know, I was grabbed by Hopkins and Dr. Mullen was there and he was pioneering SIBO work so I was and I fell in love with gastroenterology like Oh, so that was exciting I jumped into that we work together a lot learned a lot about that aspect. And then that carried me through a number of years but then there's more, you know you follow the presentation, the presentations that were coming to me where more you know SIBO or immunity bucket full mystery, but then also Hashimoto's like one on top of the other on top of the other on top of the other. And then I was always asking the question, you know, what am I not seeing. And then, because I was the last resort so if I can't do it there's a lot of pressure on us if I can do it, I'm worried what's going to happen to this person. But then I had a you know I had a friend who was out of the blue completely diagnosed with ended up in a hospitalized with MS. It was one of my best friend, six months before I immigrated. She fought that battle for what was it 15 years, and I was starting my life like parallel lives. I'll never forget the last call for Christmas I made when I could no longer understand what you were saying so her son had to take over and so we lost her eventually the complications I never said goodbye I he was afraid to tell me she was already gone it was. I had this hole in my heart. And always ask the question why couldn't I help her what was it. And the CBV was kind of what was her son had heard about that, but you know at this point in her life, everything was delayed already. And before I was not, you know, when I immigrated I was not a nutritionist so it was like I missed that opportunity but I always ask why what could be done and what it is and I remember asking a colleague who is a medical intuitive. I just need to know if this thing EBV was the triggering event like we had, you know, we both experienced Chernobyl we were in Poland very close. I never had problems with thyroid or anything, but I've been in the sun a lot you probably know MS and all that you had an article on MS and I had an article MS there was a study. So anyway. And she said yes. And then my patient started to ask me about this book. What is the educated opinion on this book. Yeah, first one second one third one second, I had no life I was overworked and I was burning out I was constantly working one on one. I was flying to conferences like I'll buy this darn book I read it on the plane. But when I was sitting on the plane if I could fall off my chair I would because these were the stories of the people I couldn't help. And my friend Marlena said, Oh, and this was the medical medium books. Oh, so I said, Oh, oh, if half of it is true. I'm going home and I'm starting. So that took me through thousands of pages of medical literature. I started with proper testing because medical literature is very clear on testing. But testing is misinterpreted and misaligned it's a hot mess just like Hashimoto's thyroid testing. It's a hot mess. So I had to create a protocol for testing that is evidence based and understanding is also tricky because it's not counter it's counterintuitive. IGM and IGG you know it's like this is where thousands of people fall through the cracks and they spend for many more years trying to figure things out when doctors say has nothing to do with it. So that the testing was like and I was, and we started to implement testing for all my community that I was working with at that time. And I started to see the patterns, you know, patterns are important, not one person to but it's just repeated repeated and then more medical literature, and then at that time I was also finally. I was like pinching myself why is not anyone doing this like why is it not on the table there was no training that there's nothing out there, right. Nothing. And even in our functional circles this thing it doesn't know, right, like there's very talking about the big Wow, you know let's stop the moment on testing because I think that's critical and let's talk a little bit about the testing ID testing but I want to hear your take on this and what the evidence shows as far as what panel they really need to do. And what does that mean. Yeah, so I always like to zoom 30,000 miles and also confirm, because I have the privilege to work with the baby constantly I close my one on one practice. This is all I do. Yeah, and you have to be in my program to work with me one on one because it's a hybrid. As a consultant. Yes, so I constantly play this piano so I see all these patterns and clarity comes right, just like you with mold or you know, functional medicine so. So with, I'll tell I'll start with a story because people remember those and this is a good story I was training, I call it nutritionist, and she says I have a classic presentation I know is chronic active a bv okay so. But her early on to Jen is negative, because early on to jazz buds up with reactivation and then couple of weeks and then it goes. But it doesn't mean that after that you well. And so the question that you ask is, when did she test that test, January. And then I asked her you need to ask her where did she feel like that truck hit her over, you know, the head. When did you really tag. Yeah, Thanksgiving. Because when you talk you take measures you sleep you do something and you know so early on to Jen normalizes and then clinicians are confused actually this is nothing there is just the big two ones three triple digits but these are past they're not relevant and da da da. You're talking VCA IGG and nuclear antigen IGG. The big ones that were tagged for life. Yes, you know, they're never going to be zero if you have them is just not possible this virus has been here for 10 million years. We're all carrying it. Yes, I didn't I didn't know until I got sick with mold. Two years ago. So, um, so that's a big one. The IGM VCA that is very rarely positive shouldn't be because if you look at literature, it only spikes up in the initial infection. That's not the population we see. Right. Some people are very small percentage always have it elevated, no matter when they test. And so this is molecular mimicry. This is core infections. This is a mess. This is like you. You need to look at under the hood. What else. I love this because that whole IGM thing is often triggered in sometimes it's an actual total subclass IGM as elevated and then you see these right because of a toxin or infection trigger so totally agree. Yes, that's a very good point. You have somebody things like you know, it's clear. And we have the book we have the quiz we have so many resources and people have been reading medical medium so people are more like, you know, it matches my life. Yeah, but then my numbers maybe are all negative. This is a very good point like you said to you need to test all your total IGG and total IGM antibodies because you may not even be producing anymore. You so depleted. Yeah, so for example you have a common variable immune deficiency which is a IGG deficiency, or an IGM deficiency, or an IGA. But if you don't have enough of the subclasses you're never going to mount a response so you're not going to see it on the exact antibodies to this virus. No, and you know what they say a good doctor treats a patient not a lab. Yes, yes, I know people ask me every day I get emails about the labs but I need context I need to understand your life your presentation your medication and not your medical history. Yeah, I need to see the whole picture to see where the labs fit. That's important. The one thing that I don't recommend as PCR. Agreed with you. I love this because I'm so aligned. Now let's talk about real quickly presentation because I agree I'm so it's like you have to the clinical picture plus the labs. And then you make a good decision right but what would tell it describe the kind of classical presentation of reactivation. I know there's a lot but give us kind of like what patients might think might think about this as a etiology if they're experiencing what symptoms. Number one they can have autoimmunity. They can say I don't have any of these symptoms. I just have Hashimoto's whoops. Hashimoto's it's it is one of the driving force, you know, cause of the factor. The very heavy fatigue the fatigue that people can't explain. It's the fatigue when you can drag yourself out of bed to the kitchen back to the bed and you spend for the day that's the kind of land fatigue. That's one brain fog. People have concerns with cognitive decline they can't process. They come to my program confused exhausted. Sometimes they're pain sometimes joint pain sometimes tribal myalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, the diagnosis, and then a laundry laundry basket of all kinds of complaints symptoms, more autoimmune disorders. I mean it's. Yeah, you see the patterns. I'm not easily surprised but yet still we interstitial status. I had no idea that it could ever be even related but when you go to studies that there's some studies like how is that. Yeah. It's like I had to stop reading the writing the book because it's like it's such a big fat book but those time you know I kept reading finding more research. The last thing the last thing I did was Crohn's and IBD right and you had that story. No, but I've worked with is well why don't I just go to PubMed and just check. Yeah, and I had a couple of studies. It's the same thing about 6061% regardless whether it's Crohn's or IBD are triggered by EBD or originally you know, by the time you have it. I haven't had good luck reverse injuring it just doing EBD work because that's that's like too far into it but right. And at that point I stopped adding because it's like, I can't deal with this is like, it's everywhere, and it really is. I love that's why I love talking to you because this is such a common underlying cause. Hey everybody, I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, unexpected finding resilience through functional medicine, science and faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book I share my own journey of overcoming life threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein bar and mold and biotoxin related illness. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you want to get your own copy stopped by read unexpected.com. There you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience underlying cause. Let's diverge just a moment specifically because you told the story about your dear friend who kind of allowed you to start in this realm. And we both were recently about the very large study that was association of MS and EBB to talk to us a little bit about that and what Yeah, yeah, I was. So I was a little bit uneasy about the study the study had a couple of weaknesses. And I address that in the blog I have an extensive blog. We will link it if you're listening here wherever you're listening I'll be sure and link that blog here to you. I know you wrote about it but I had to say the message is when you have EBB it doesn't mean you're going to develop a mess. Yes, yes. Some of the trigger employees like I was always in the sun. I grew up in Poland on the Baltic sea on the beach beach town you know I love being around my mother would throw me out naked with a kid a little in fun that vitamin D is critical. Yeah, I don't know that Marlene I had that when she was growing up that maybe the different you know it's like, there are certain very important things that trigger a mass EBB and some scientists you know EBB is a prerequisite you can get it without EBB. But there's heavy metal toxicity there's a lot of things in the mess we can just say a blanket statement. Yeah, so agree more because it's always multi material it's like toxic load and infectious burden, and those two things play together to create an FC bars definitely as you said is a driver of auto immunity. You said FC bar in a perfect clean lifestyle with all the right nutrients you might not develop auto immunity so it's not a guarantee either. You said a very good thing if you have clean diet, great nutrients you will not have any because it is an opportunist. Yes, all you need is a drop in your nutritional status. When doesn't come when you stress you don't sleep you overwork you overgive you overextend yourself. You have a lot of fat corners. And when you stress, you don't eat well since like double whammy during stress you know we use nutrients left and right magnesium goals and goals immunity goals we are so compromised, and the virus goes Oh, and then just one junk meal. And if copper be by 150% for two hours and then end of copper be is an inflammatory protein that is like a taxi for EBV at hijack sit uses it to replicate. So it's like we groundwork. Yeah, honor your boundaries your your soul who you are. Don't say yes when you mean no you need to say no. And I feel like the patterns in our community at least we have a joke. It's welcome to the overachiever overgiver perfectionist anonymous international club. Yeah, we work on creating awareness of how much empathy that community has. How much more sensitive they are to other people and energies, and how much more aware they have to be all that protective bubble of their own personal energy so they're not invaded. How much more sensitive they are to Wi Fi technology mold exposure, that canneries in the, in the mind and for me that community our community is beautiful because these are the most feeling people. The virus, but they get hit with this virus because, you know, it's almost like the body's hitting the wall you're not, you're not going where you need to go you're not listening you know, and the virus is an opportunist if you are not, I think you know, I was so lucky doing what I love. So my immune system is strong because I, this is like, this is my backbone. I'm always happy. I don't have toxic relationships toxic bosses, you know, it's huge and people underestimated. You know, I love that you started there because actually that's such a critical I find some of the most important healing comes from this healthy boundaries that loving ourselves giving but also keeping you know protecting taking care of ourselves. And this makes so much sense. And you and I had a little discussion email before we did this as well with, because I said one of these ingredients will talk about treatments that I liked is actually probably treating another opportunist which is fungal or yeast infections. And also, you often coexist in someone who's in a weakened state. I always say yeast is opportunistic well EBV is the same, which means opportunistic just means takes advantage of you in a weakened state. And just like we said, everybody has these old viruses EBV is one it's a big one but most of us. I think in Fox many of some people have CMV. Many of you have Borrelia or Lyme disease and not everybody is ill from these things. But when that system bar drops, all of a sudden, we don't have the resources to keep them at bay. And that's what you and I are talking about. Yeah, exactly and think about it as they say, if you break a leg, you can heal it but when you break the spirit. And a lot of people in our community have gone through trauma have betrayed or have had so much stress, lost two family members in a day or you know it's just repeat that story right and then and then on top of that, the way we build houses in this country. Yes, it's like breeding ground for I know. Oh, plaster. Briefly about that because we talked before again about the connection because of course I love that I love mold but I treat a lot of people with mold. So tell us about that connection because that's important if someone's walking around they maybe had a mono had EBV in the past they're doing okay but then they get into a water damage building or a mold exposure. How might that reactivate or cause problems as well. We don't know but it does because I would say you know I always say if somebody comes and they have more both and we know they have both EBV and more chances are they be these there before because of most priorities mode. Yes, and priorities. Delusion is solution get out of there, or get it out. So that whatever you need to do. Yeah, whatever else you do is secondary and EBV good luck to you. Yeah, so when I have a predictable protocol initially like immediately a core protocol. I watch it because I know what it delivers because evidence based. And so if we stumble with it, we need to look at other things. Yes, and mold is the biggest one that gets in the way. Wi-Fi to if you have mold and Wi-Fi. Yes, because micro toxins make many more toxins are more aggressive. We don't know if it's because they're happy of their threatened. We don't need to know the bottom line is mold can trigger autoimmunity and all kinds of stuff so you can have Hashimoto's as well which is very common and misdiagnosed because of mold. Yes, yes. Now, again, I'm glad that we're talking about this because it's so multi layered and like you said mold is we know mycophenolic acid, which is a common mycotoxin produced by mold is actually used as a drug called cell set to suppress immune system. So we know what happens is those exposures weakened immune system which we just got talking is the framework for this virus to pop itself up. And I agree with you you always treat the mold first and then go to the viral level. Yeah, and then sorry because you mentioned candida like if you have if you have mold exposure current, your candida will start colonizing. Yes. And so you want to take organic acid test look at our binos but also look at oxalate level. But then the oxalate level people get confused and change the diet to low carb because they think I can't eat oxalate. And you know it's nice I have to go through it and I am approved that. No, don't restrict. I love this and it can you start out with Dr. Mullins and nutrition so you know as well as I do. When I see those oxalates on there and I want to actually bring this point home because it's we're so aligned. I have a lot of problem with the diet tree oxides that adds to the load but that's not your issue it's production from internal sources like fungal or metabolites. And you have to take care of the root versus just is oxalates are really good foods their almonds and blueberries and spinach and those foods you're losing. I really feel like that's why I moved away from functional medicine because I really feel that it's going into a rabbit hole and really the common sense is being lost upon practitioners. You have to look at the whole picture. So let's actually shift then to you got some science based protocols that work and we I'd love for you to share a little bit about what how someone to go about the testing or say they already know that they do have reactivation where what direction you go once you find out you have reactivation as a part of your clinical picture. So, first of all, this supplement protocol doesn't fix TV. Everybody wants give me some moments and I'll be fine. Yeah, they will create a foundation. And then you really have to revisit what you've been doing, like with your life, what with your thoughts with your water with your food, because ebb is a reflection of environmental toxins as well. Yes. You know, you have to address all that. But the the core is the core is so. So I'll tell you what I don't do and we had that conversation about the law in lower side and I don't like to kill. Yeah. Yeah, you will have to go to Germany or Italy, have the whole blood removed replays, come back home, and then you will get blood transfusion and get infected again. Yeah, this virus. Yeah, we cohabit. Yes. So don't think about killing again we will wish. It's not going to happen. But what will happen is it creates a lot of oxidative stress free radical damage. And I found in medical literature that the best I collected the stellar like multitaskers and superstars. They really like, they are nutrient based. It has multiple functions so it builds you up like brick walls of a house. Amino acid, antioxidant, vitamin mineral. They also are antioxidants, minerals, vitamins, and they have specific anti ebb activities that they perform, studied. Yeah. And then on top of that you have to drive them up to add those that is therapeutic, and it's high aggressive. So I have to be very careful and the hardest part writing the book for me was having a fear that people will do overdo it because more is better. She says this, I'm going to do even more. Yeah, or do it for five years, or you know, hurt themselves. It's like, it was really hard to write that book because I had to I promised everyone I would do that. So, you know, counter indications working with the practitioners how high have I can I go. So when you end and I don't like combination supplements. Combinations of hydrochloric acid and enzymes combinations of antivirals components like that, because you need to know how each one modulates you separately. Sometimes people have bottleneck effect with NAC they over methylate they can so they have to drive NAC by itself, how far they can go or they can sleep at night. So, when we do that initial protocol I give them like one two months that, especially if you have a jeans that's when you don't process, you know metabolize supplements very fast or, you know, just one at a time increase each day. Set the foundation because that will actually help you prevent reactivations in future. When you create the protocol that is actually working now. In future, you will be able to turn this off within 48 hours when you have reactivation, even more you're going to be so educated you will know when to expect reactivation. You will know exactly why you starting to reactivate you're going to know your symptoms of first like, oh, you're going to run for that initial protocol again, and it's going to turn it off within 48 hours. So this is like, so this is how I finally figured out logistics of how to get a person through the process. So they are five years from now, they live in their life, they know what to do. When she hits the fan part of my language but life happens, they immediately get on this initial, you know, hardcore high aggressive protocol. So the virus doesn't even reactivate. So the protocol is, you know, selenium is one of those. I go all the way up to 800. Don't recommend doing it on your own, because any, anything above 800, you're going to have toxicity symptom. One of our students recently she wrote the names of the supplements and dosages on the caps, you know, on the tops. Yeah. Because they have brain fog, they can't remember. But she wrote it wrong. Oh no. You know, I'm on the bundle and I am feeling crappy. I don't know something's going on. And something was mentioned about saying, wait a second, what about the selenium? How much are you thinking she was overdoing it? So she had like rickets symptoms and so on. Yeah, not rickets with selenium. Yeah, that's not rickets. I was talking about thinking about vitamin D. But anyway, you have to be careful, work with a clinician. The book has counter indications, you know, the book. You know, just so everybody knows if you're listening, we're going to put links to your training course and your book. So if you want to really get in, this is just a teaser kind of the intro. You definitely have the training for those who want to dive deeper and we'll link to that. But you said selenium. What else after selenium? Hi, NIC. Hi, Lysine. Zinc, you need zinc every day. So it needs to be with a little bit of copper. Yes. And then vitamin C with bioflavonoids, because that's really is like it extends it longer. There should be a vitamin D, of course, and with TK2. And am I missing something? There should be eight. Licorice is the only botanical. Okay. So it's not a nutrient based one, but it's worth it. When I think of licorice, I think of adrenals cortisol as a puzzle. And is that one way that you're using it to kind of support the adrenals and that. And like you said, the thyroid and adrenal glands can literally be attacked by this virus. Yeah, so the adrenal insufficiency is, you know, this is something in our community that is always present. I don't see normal thyroid function and no more adrenal. Yes, agreed. I agree. It's kind of like that. Yeah, so that licorice is perfect because it just lifts those adrenals gives you a little unplug. And they typically have the blood pressure drops to low and people are just so that kind of pumps it without coughing. And actually, when the stress impacts your body, it also impacts your thyroid, like you said, and the thyroid is the one that decides how you secrete your stomach acid. And so oftentimes the stomach acid starts go dropping and so you become more sticky for infections, co-infections, overgrowth, candida, vasillus and this and that, strep stuff, so we have to look at the whole person. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, it's not just a quick fix. Let's get those darn supplements and off we go and do the same thing we were doing. You have to, it's kind of like a place in your life. I mean, it's like a lot of things, but I love that you're focusing on this because so many illnesses, so many things are a wake up call for us to actually start paying attention to how we're living, how we're showing up. Like you said, our boundaries are relationships. And I love that you kind of started with that framework of this is a call for any of you suffering from this not to just grab a bunch of supplements and keep going just like you're doing. Actually, and especially like you said in our country, it's such a productivity driven like don't rest, don't take time off, don't take care of yourself. And this is a perfect wake up call for really taking those things seriously in your life. Yeah, and it's difficult because Americans work more than Japanese people. I mean, that's like, oh, yeah. Back in Poland, we had, we had summers we had that everything was low key that was no pressure, you know, nobody made a lot of money we were just happier like, and I've been pretty much working. Yeah, here and on stop I love it but still, you guys sucked into the culture. So I am, I am slowing down right now, volunteering and doing other things and be very selective about medical conferences, I don't want to travel to the conference anymore. So, it is hard for Americans because life here is complicated, lots of pressure. A lot of complexities, aging parents with cognitive deterioration is like all these things. Right. And at a certain point in your life you have as a woman in particular you have those aging parents, the complication. You have your old term spouse that may be complicated. The kids are going to college that is complicated expensive it's like you know it's like you don't even. You don't have a job or pets or whatever else. So you don't have any doubt you don't have your own personal dreams, like it's, it's you just constantly on there on a goal. So it's difficult. Yeah, gosh and I again this is such a great. One of those things where we often think of suffering or illness or something that stops our ability to perform and work as a real negative right but what you're doing is framing it as what if the EBV in your life, the fatigue that you're suffering is actually a wake up for you to change and shift and become the person show up as you always wanted to show up and I really like that. Really I always think illness. It's never fun I've been through cancer and Crohn's disease and mold related illness and I've had a BB. And it's so I mean I have to control but it's absolutely something I've experienced. But what's happened in each one of these things is it shifted how I see live how I show up and I'm still in the process, still working at not working too hard but it's so important to view these things as maybe an awakening versus just something that happens to us. Yeah, and I don't know how you did it because I find I'm not a very good patient myself. I do have good news though, because, and this is something I feel like clinical nutritionists are on the value people don't understand what we do in our perspective but I, I really like after 20 years of looking at everything and, you know, and looking at my body and how it's handled everything and how I handled it. I will repeat what I've heard for many years that up to 80% of chronic illnesses caused by nutritional deficiencies and it still stands. Because basically what I'm doing with the BB is I'm building people up nutritionally. We focus on quality foods quality nutrients absorption. And decreasing the toxicity level on different levels so those nutrients can be better utilized rather than doing damage control constantly. The thing is, so this is like I want to impress it on on the audience today so you don't feel really discouraged. The good news is that the body is infinitely intelligent if we can get out of the way if we can only provide what it needs at the right times, right combinations. You know, you know, if you just do that immunologists forget immune cells require amino acids nutrients magnesium that they require nutrients darn it. They do. Yes, yes, you have a weak immune system. You know, we have studied fiber unit stool. You know if you have fiber, you're going to create short chain fatty acids. They will be used by T regs like the Superman of immune cells. So this is what I have to teach because people have no idea they're looking for the next you know the next vaccination the next studies like there's no magic we have it in our hands and I have to impress on everybody. People recover and live their dreams every day. And it's just the most amazing feeling and you do the you to do to I just, I just see it with EBV so I have to say, it's totally possible. It's your birthright to be well. You just don't know. So now you know, so now you can do something about it and not going to the rabbit hole of the whole medical structure that is failing us and be your own advocate so you can get the testing. By the way, they are consumer direct labs that will do proper testing for EBV. I'm not kidding Jill I have people for seven years they've been trying to find a doctor who will agree to test it because they say no, nothing here that can be done. I'm not going to do it. It's not going to tell you anything. That's life spent uselessly so there are a lot of resources that it's all doable. It's all doable. And now more than ever like you said patients have the ability to get the labs to get the nutrients to kind of do some more freedom than you think. Yes, you just keep going don't you know, find find doctors that will be on your team. It's amazing. And people like you who are out there teaching. So you've got the book I want to make sure people know about that what's the title and where can they find your book. The EBV solution. We have a link. It's on Amazon but we have a link we have a link to everything on our website we created that resource website. EBV help help.com is your website. Yeah, yeah, everything is there we have workshops we have free workshops 47 bucks workshops. We have more spiritual workshops food workshops trainings for doctors trainings for people that are sick. We have the website has a lot of information about understanding your labs so all that information there's a video there. All kinds of scenarios all of that is there. There's a link to the book. So, yeah, we try to make sure that if somebody Googles EBV they don't go into a rabbit hole and right by all they get you know this is what it is. And by the way we have summer and wildfires I just want to address. Yes, let's talk about that at the end here. It's July 4th if you have EBV if you're not well you cannot inhale the air from fireworks. You cannot sit by pit fire when the wood is burning when the when the wind blows the smoke on you, you should not be grilling what this you're inhaling the smoke and the wildfires you can be outside. You can wear a mask, especially if you have EBV. And then you need a good filter in the house and definitely supplements for EBV to keep it under control cause dioxins and dioxins after there were studies from Switzerland dioxins after fireworks linger for I think two weeks in the air. So you're going to have exposure so we, we remind every summer now we send messages so please share because a lot of people, you may be doing everything right and you're doing better and then you tank and you really feel derailed and demoralized and say I'm doing everything right it's not working but there's always a reason the virus is predictable. So that would be the reason and it really helps people understand okay this is not a mystery. I love you're talking my language because of course wildfires I'm in Colorado very very common and when this two years ago one and a half years ago we had massive massive wildfires in my community and what I saw of a sudden it was the labs of my patients everybody in this community that I was testing, looked just like a severe mold exposure which is that toxic load in the air which weakens immune system. And what I realized is the same kinds of markers TGF beta and MMP nine, we're being elevated by the wildfire the burning of all these toxins, and like you said the smoke of fireworks so love that you're talking about that, and if you're out there and feeling helpless you can get an air filter in your house, you can do this this work yourself and then be about exposure. Well, Dr kinds kasha it has been such a pleasure to talk to you. You can find more and so appreciate the work you're doing not only for patients but even bringing awareness to practitioners. So thank you again for all the work you're doing in the world. It is my honor I thank you for doing everything that you are doing so yes, invite me anytime we'll talk more and he supports me. Let's educate people as needed. Thank you so much.