 Aloha. Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii's Movers, Shakers, and Reformers. This is the Biofuels series. Please join us each week throughout the rest of October as we explore the potential of biofuels in Hawaii as we discuss with the various stakeholders including our legislators, our landowners, and various developers as we can achieve goals that can help bring jobs that can help create more sustainability for our future, that can help reduce cost of living as well. So this is a very important topic and I appreciate that you join us. And let me welcome today our two guests. I'm very pleased, very excited to have our two guests today. We have Representative Mark Nakashima and Representative Chris Lee. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Thank you for having us. Excellent. So we're going to stop a little bit with some personal stuff, a little bit about you guys, about what you're up to and why you do what you do a little bit. So let's start off with, okay, how long have you been in office? I've been in office for eight years now. For eight years? Okay, so you're about to, so do you have an opponent currently? Yes, I do. So you have a race? Okay, well even more so thank you for being here. So I, because I know what that's like. So, okay, and Ripley, how about you? Eight years as well. Eight years as well? Okay. Eight years as well. Fortunately I don't have a race this year. So I've got a little bit of a pass. So I'll be out helping Mark, Captain Hane out in the second best district in the state. It's not mine, but no, they're equally good. They're equally good. Yes, as we were talking earlier before the show began, Nakashima is District One, which is Hilo, Hamakua area, and Ripley is District 51, which is Kailua, Kaneohe area. Kailua, Weminello. Kailua, Weminello. All the way out to Midway. All the way out to Midway. There you go. There you go. Okay. So again, no, I appreciate you being here. So okay, just real real quick as well, let's jump back into eight years, both of you. So bookends in more ways than one. What made you first run, Ripley? You know, the guy in my area retired, and it was the community that I grew up in, and I actually didn't want to run originally, but there were some folks who were talking about some crazy things at the time who were thinking about running. So I thought, well, if I don't do this, you know, you got to put up or shut up. And for me, it was something, it was a place I cared about. So I figured I'd put my name in and hopefully do some good stuff, and as fate would have it, ended up winning. And I think we've accomplished a few good things for our community since then. Yeah, I think so. I know that I have done what I can to support you in both your race that you've had, at least one campaign that you've had as well as some of your agenda as well. Much appreciated. No, I appreciate it as well, all of your work. And so same for you, Rip Nakashima. Well, you know, my situation was very much the same thing. The seat became available. The incumbent moved and ran for the Senate. And it was fortunate for me because prior to that, the Takamini dynasty held the seat for almost 50 years. On the Hamukawa Coast. And I had not initially thought about running for the seat. But again, I think, like, representably knew I was encouraged by friends to consider running for the seat that I did. And I guess it worked out because here I am eight years later. Eight years later. And but you do have a race this year. So someone has decided that they want to stand up. Well, I have always had a race every year that I've been elected. So I've been fortunate that the voters have seen fit to return me. Which says a lot. I think that says a lot. So congratulations to you for overcoming it every couple of years. Thank you. That's wonderful. I think it says a lot. It means you're really, I think, connecting as a community is what I think that means. So no, I appreciate that. So okay. I know you had a race two years ago. And because I know I helped with that. Yeah, it was a really hotly contested race. But I think it's fortunate to have a lot of good help and support in the community. And we're able to pull out a pretty big victory. And I think that hopefully reflects some of the work we've been doing. And and though at the same time, you can't take that kind of thing for granted. So we're going to keep working hard. That's right. Never take it for granted. That's right. Exactly. Excellent. Excellent. Positive. Good positive. I appreciate that. Okay. All right. So tell us, tell us, please. What are the legislative, I know that we have posted on our thirds here a little bit about you, but tell us about the committees that you're involved in and the roles that you may have within the House of Representatives. So currently, I chair the Committee on Labor and Public Employment. Okay. And I sit in the government bracket, also on transportation and public safety. And in the afternoons, I sit on judiciary and commerce consumer protection. Okay. Wow. So these are all significant. Yes. Good. Good. Good. Wow. Okay. And and Ripley, currently I chair the Energy and Environmental Protection Committee and sit on the Natural Resources Bracket. And in the afternoon, I'm on judiciary and consumer protection as well. Okay. Okay. So all very, wow. Okay. So good. This is why we have them here. They're really important people here today. So now I truly appreciate the time that you've taken to come talk with us a bit. So, okay. When you were first, I'll stick in this area that then we'll go into biofuels a bit more after this. But when you were first running, did you already have in mind what committees or what you might want to do? Or was that something that happened or developed after the fact? Did you have like specific agenda items? So we'll start with you. Um, I didn't have a specific agenda item, mostly because I didn't really know how things were going to be structured at the Capitol. And once I got there, they'll realize that, you know, definitely I think for our side of the island, which is for a while with the more rural side of the island, environment and natural resources are definitely a priority out there. So joined that particular bracket and got involved that way. That makes a lot of sense. So again, connecting to the community and making sure that you're reflective, right? Excellent. Okay. Uh, for myself, you know, I'm a teacher by training. I taught in the classroom and I did work for HSD for a bit. So education was a major priority for me. And so my first four years in the legislature, I was a vice chair of the higher ed committee and served in the education bracket and tried to do a lot of work there to try and perfect the public school system. That has its own challenges. Yes. We'll do a different show on that later. I've been doing shows on education. So actually, I wish I would have known that. I would have invited you to come sooner, certainly, but certainly you're both welcome whenever. Okay. Now let's shift back into the energy side a little bit, a little bit of transportation energy that we're really going to be talking about more than anything. But before we start with that, what, if any, roles did you both play in the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative? Yeah, I think going back to, at least since we've been around since 2008, there definitely has been a momentum already that was, that was there trying to get Hawaii off of fossil fuels and build a new economy where you have new jobs in different, different energy areas. And I think for us or for me anyway, our chair at the time of the committee that, that I now chair, Meena Morita, had really been involved with creating the Clean Energy Initiative in her day and pushing that along. So for us, it was really like, I think the first couple of years, I say for us, for us on the committee at the time, it was, it was a learning process really figuring out who those players are and how they came together because that's, that, that understanding of those relationships is key to getting any of this stuff done and actually getting these things moving in practice. So it really was some onto the job training and getting to know the players more than anything. Yeah, being able to pull them together. Absolutely. The stakeholders who are there to see what the challenges are and how to bring us any idea of solutions together. Yeah. So you need to have their buy-in. Yeah. So was that a challenge or did everyone kind of agree? No, you know, I think this is the challenge, right? Because anytime you're talking about an industry that's undergoing massive change and energy more than any other right now is completely transforming itself, you're going to have, you know, quote unquote business winners and losers technologies that are just out of date are no longer financially viable. And at the same time opportunities for new startups and other folks to get involved. And so it's really creating that transition and trying to keep it smooth so that you have, for example, meter readers at the utility who are in some cases no longer going to have jobs or at least the same number of jobs and giving them opportunities for other employment and marking it into the labor side. There's definitely a lot of that. Absolutely. But there's definitely that, that tug on both sides of it that you try to navigate and try to make everybody sure. You try to have as much of a win for everyone as possible, but it just can't always be there certainly. But that's why it needs to be looked at not just in a one session, one moment it needs to be looked at over a progression of time, right? And if you recall, you know, when we were elected back in 2008, you know, the price of gasoline was rocketing upward toward $400. And at that time it really emphasized the importance of being more energy self-sufficient and getting away from the fossil fuels because, you know, our number one export in Hawaii is money. Because we import all our oil and we import everything and we export our money. And as long as that money is going out of our economy, you know, our economy is never going to get ahead. So, you know, the emphasis on renewable energy and fossil fuels and getting away from the fossil fuels I think was particularly important to me in that election. You know, the fact that it was hitting the pocketbook and that people could not plan ahead, that businesses were going under because their monthly bills are just skyrocketing. Absolutely. That's a vital piece to understand. I mean, you want to talk to connecting with your community. It is their monthly bills. It is their weekly gas bill. And one of the reasons we look at this is, yes, our electricity bills go up and down monthly, but then our fuel bills go up and down sometimes daily, right? So it's that those are called price shocks, right? When all of a sudden, hey, I've been paying that, oh, now I'm up here and oh, wow, I now have to readjust. I can't buy that extra loaf of bread anymore because I now have to pay more for gas. And that's a real impact. And that's kind of how we get into the transportation fuels, biofuels, alternative fuels conversation. Yes. Yeah. So let's jump in a little bit with the workforce, with the labor force idea and what have been some of the conversations and what are some of the, I guess, theories on how we can best address this transition of making sure we have jobs for people as we transition. So actually when I first became a labor chair, the Department of Labor had received a grant from the U.S. Department of Labor to explore green jobs in Hawaii and to look at the need for green jobs and to identify where training and workforce need to be developed in the way of green jobs. So in that way, the Department of Labor started to try and lay the foundation for the need for job training and preparing a new workforce for that sector of the economy. And I think that as we move forward, that continues to be some place where we continue to look at for expanding roles and I think that there's been some setback on the solar side with regard to jobs available. Significant setback there. But I think that where there are those gaps, there are additional opportunities. And so we are looking at how we continue to support the industries, getting yourself a fossil fuels and looking at ways to create a workforce that will help us move into this fossil free economy. Sure. Now it takes a lot of planning, a lot of forethought to really, because you don't want to upset the apple cart a little bit too much, right? You don't want to upset the economy. You don't want to break anything down too soon. So how do you address that? So we are already at our break. So that was a really quick first 14 minutes. So thank you all for joining us. This is Think Tech Hawaii's Movershakers and Reformers, our biofuels in Hawaii series. I want to thank once again my guests for today, Representative Chris Lee and Mark Nakashima. We'll see you in one minute. Thank you. Aloha. I'm Kirsten Baumgart, Turner, host of Sustainable Hawaii. Thanks for watching Think Tech this summer. We have a lot of terrific shows of great importance and I hope you'll watch my show too every Tuesday at noon as we address sustainability issues for Hawaii. They're really pertinent as the World Conservation Congress approaches in September and the World Youth Congress that's focusing on sustainability next year as well. Have a great summer and tune in at noon every Tuesday. Hey, you Stand the Energy Man here. I know you're bored this summer. You're just sitting at home, figuring out what to do, go to the beach, spend some time with Think Tech Hawaii, spend the time thinking about how you can contribute to Hawaii and making it a better place to live and start watching some of the programs on Think Tech, including Stand the Energy Man. Well, you'll learn all about everything energy, especially hydrogen and transportation. So we'll see you every Friday at 12 o'clock noon, Stand the Energy Man here on Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha. Welcome back to Think Tech Hawaii's Movers, Shakers and Reformers, our biofuels in Hawaii series. Once again, help me welcome our guest for today, Representative Mark Nakashima and Representative Chris Lee. Thanks again for joining us. So okay, we were just talking about the workforce side of that. And one of the issues that we've got is that transition. So we don't want to have and that transition exists in multiple areas. So we don't want to just like all at once eliminate all of the fossil fuels because how does that impact the economy in Hawaii? How does that impact the global economy if it's done in that regard? But we have to look at that same thing. And I'm asking this as a question. Do we look at that same thing from a jobs perspective so that we don't have too much of a lag that requires too much training to get people into a new area? Is that kind of what you struggle with a little bit? Or I don't know, do you have the thoughts on that? Well, I think more and more under the new federal workforce improvement and Opportunity Act, we are looking at working much closer with industry to identify where those jobs are and what the needs will be. You know, up until now a lot of workforce development was kind of more hit or miss and it was looking at really getting people on unemployment back into employment. So it's kind of real entry level type of things. And what we're looking at now is trying to create more partnerships with the industry so that the jobs that people are getting are what the industry needs and also provides an opportunity for advancement in those companies. So that's kind of key difference not only in how we train but also how we're measured for success in that training. Got it, got it. Okay, no, that makes sense. Okay, we're going to shift now back to its biofuels in Hawaii but we're going to, let me ask this because you both brought this up before the show. It's biofuels in Hawaii and there's a specific reason for that and there could be in their perhaps in some opinions should be more of a focus on producing more biofuel feedstock and creating that supply chain here so there's creating more jobs in all kinds of levels. But are you more comfortable calling it alternative fuels because there are other things that we would want to include as well? I think there are definitely, well one we should say, I don't think any of us have the answer for exactly what this place is going to look like and what's going to be viable in 10, 20 years but there are definitely a lot of promising options and biofuels is definitely an area where there is a lot of that particularly because we're never going to be able to in any time soon replace liquid fuels particularly in the transportation sector, jet fuel and things like that and this is the one area where you really have a lot of potential for that but there is other, there are other things for ground transportation here in the state and you've got certainly EVs are taking off but also hydrogen as a fuel source is something that I know Mark's been working a lot on over on his island looking at using hydrogen as a clean fuel source to power fleet vehicles and buses and all kinds of things like that so I think that's definitely part of the mix and we can't look at these things in isolation they're all pieces of the same larger puzzle. Yeah hopefully we're beyond the silos and we're definitely crossing over as much as possible so okay so electric vehicles for multiple reasons could be considered. I just read an article today that Germany is about to require that 100% of vehicles be electric vehicles or certainly be non fossil fuel. I posted up on Facebook how feasible is this presumably in Hawaii I don't know how feasible that would be or what sort of transition that would really require. Well I would say you know Germany is the country that really originated the internal combustion engine so if they can do that then maybe they can make this next step work too. I hope and you know what I look forward to seeing how they do that and maybe we can see about you know sharing some of that so wow that's so yeah so electric vehicles are very important because it's taking us off of the fossil fuel transportation fuels of course we are still dealing with generating what electricity through fossil fuels so therefore there's there's there's still an impact there right. Interestingly Jeju Island in Korea which is our one of our sister states is moving to a totally fossil free energy grid mostly wind and solar and they are also requiring I think in 20 years that everybody have an electric car and the federal government in Korea is actually subsidizing that test so you know where there's a will there's a way and so they can do that. I'm not sure that that that single alternative is the best but you know it shows a initiative to move in that direction. More globally we're talking Germany and Korea and here in Hawaii we've been talking about it for a while right. I think in here here in Hawaii you know I think you know each of these vehicles have their their niches so to speak where where they work much better than others right for my instance the reason I look at hydrogen fuel cells technologies because you know my island if I get in the car I'm driving 100 miles one way and you know the current range on the plug-ins won't let me do that on one charge so that's why your hydrogen kind of lends itself nicely to that of course we're still a ways away from being there. I've heard that next year there's going to be some stuff coming so I'm looking forward to hearing that so yeah we're working with Hcat with some of that right. Stan Osserman yeah he's a he's a good guy I've had some good conversations with him. Yeah good good good excellent excellent so all right you mentioned will there's a way but with that comes the question of political will and that political will is based on what the communities are really willing to agree with and go along with so with regards to alternative fuels whether it be or alternative transportation different modalities whether it's the obviously the train is a big deal I'm not going to ask about that right now but the train is a big deal the having a marine transportation transition would be interesting as well but that also includes okay well inter-island stuff well okay I'm not going to go into that now either but then you get into biofuel side of it you get into the electric vehicles and having that mandated in different ways and then you get into the hydrogen aspect so all of those pieces necessary to achieve that but it requires some will because it requires some investment so from that perspective what would you say the political will is as far as Hawaii is concerned maybe your districts in particular as far as alternative or biofuels potential generation or potential industry development I'll jump in I think I think in the broad context you know we are one of the few states in the country for which I think moving toward renewable energy and alternative forms of transportation is sort of a foregone conclusion you know we've adopted this as a paradigm here in the state we want to get there it's just a question of now how and how fast we can do it so I think the public gets it because you know we in Hawaii you can you can talk all you want till the cows come home about climate change and all other stuff on the mainland here it's you know we feel these effects right we've had multiple hurricanes more than usual in any given month over the last couple of years we've we've lost 17 miles of beaches around the state in the last couple of decades and we're at a point where even the hotels in Waikiki have stepped forward saying you know what tax us more so we can pay to to fix the erosion on our beach so that we can keep keep advertising ourselves as a tourist destination and and so for us that part of it I think is is not a big deal it's really how we get the political will to figure which specific pieces of that policy puzzle we move forward with you know is it going to be additional subsidies for biofuels or for EVs or what have you and you have different elements of the industry kind of competing and positioning to try and make themselves viable so that they can they can work with government and work with each other to fill that role so it's a question of what to invest in which technology which direction to invest in you kind of hold back a little bit wanting it to happen and hoping that something shows up and says hi we can do this for you right but you don't know that so okay so that's that's a challenge that's one of the challenges that we have is sure I think there's you know two different things we're talking about the state very much has been involved in R&D and and you know new innovative experimental stuff from time to time because only government sometimes can do that a good example is our OTEC plant over on the big island which has been over the years and you've this is all your stuff actually you talking about but anyway I mean the state's been involved in partnership with some private companies and public private partnerships over the years trying to get these new technologies working and we finally just hooked one up to the grid over there for the first time anywhere in the country but the next one may be a private endeavor because we we know that to a certain scale this works and so it's helping facilitate that but then there's the bigger question of policy you know do we for example provide tax credits for PV for everyone's roof which we've been doing for quite some time and to what level and how long more do we keep doing that or do we put that money elsewhere sure no absolutely absolutely I uh so going along the lines of the Hawaii Clean Energy initiative I like the idea of a Hawaii green fuels initiative that would be similar suite of supportive bills that can bring some revenues to the table in area in targeted areas to help advance the supply chain here in general how how do you see that at the moment as far as a political will perspective trying to take something like that on in a reality versus a theory you know I think that you know in in all cases it comes down to the cost and what it's going to cost the consumer because if it's going to be a much higher cost to the consumer then the willingness to adopt is not going to be there so you know I think when we look at these authority fuel cells you know the fuel cell car is a very expensive proposition however if we were to do public transportation like fuel cell buses the cost on the the cost the investment there is much lower across the board across the board and so economy of scale it's the economy of scale and also the technology lends itself more to the buses than it does to the hydrogen fuel cell car right the moment so because of that you know if we start looking at transitioning in that way then I think you start getting more adoption and familiarity in the public with the technology and then you can move forward there you know I think you know over and over I keep hearing that using the fuel cell on a larger platform like bucket trucks will pencil out much faster than it would on something like Sudan got it so okay so cost is one of the barriers that we have to to address that so I do have to apologize we are at the end of our show and I've got about five more questions left but I won't get there but thank you again for joining us I truly appreciate it I hope to have you back and talk more about really this and other things but I really appreciate your insight and and your help in trying to help really all of us understand what we can do with some of the barriers that we have so again thank you I appreciate it thank you to the Think Tech crew and the staff and everyone involved we look forward to seeing you next week when we have Miss Cecily Barnes from HECO who will be joining us thank you see you next week take care