 Believe it or not, both of these characters in this dialogue are empiricists. They're empiricists. Now you might be tempted to think that Phelanus is a rationalist because he's appealing, you're saying that there's matter, there's objects, but there's not matter. And you might mistake empiricism for materialism. No. No. That is not what Phelanus is doing. He thinks that all knowledge begins and ends with experience, with experience. So much so that this is going to be pivotal to his conclusion. Remember he's saying that a material object, the idea of material substance, results either in absurdity or skepticism. And he's saying all knowledge is from experience. Well, if that's so, then what he's saying is the idea of material substance is somehow not empirical. I wonder if he's going to pull that one off.