 Alright, you're welcome back to Queens Wednesday on why and the morning special thanks to Okuda Kaisu and Kalamival for always starting on Wednesdays on a laughing note right there. So if you happen to interact with a video that you think should make it to breaking views, send it to us on our social media handles at WhiteFive4Channel on Twitter, WhiteFive4AnderschoolChannel on Instagram, and WhiteFive4OnFacebook, hashtag is why and the morning and never ever ever forget to tell us where you're watching us from. So today for strength of a woman, first I'd like to talk to every mom out there or every person who's expecting to be a mom. If you're going through post paternal depression, you're not alone and it's happening across the world. Pascaline Njao, the founder of Kalman Foundation is here to demystify this, Kareem Boussan. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I appreciate being here. Thank you so much for the invitation. Alright, your camera is number four right there. You can just give a brief bio of yourself as we proceed. I am Pascaline Njao, I'm the founder and executive director of Kalman Foundation. I am a legal, I'm a lawyer by profession, but I ended up in this field because I have suffered postpartum depression myself. And when I went through that episode, I realized that there's little information regarding maternal mental health and I wanted to create awareness and I wanted to reach out to more moms so that we can have a more open conversation around motherhood, around parenthood, and so that people and mothers don't feel like they are alone in this journey and they are not the only ones suffering, it's very important to have this conversation. So that is how I ended up founding Kalman Foundation and what we do is that we promote maternal mental health through education, support and advocacy. And we started this as an initiative on social media in 2017 and we have grown to becoming an organization now and we have several programs that we are running in Kenya. Yes, so that's what we do. Alright, wonderful. Welcome to I am the morning, welcome to Queensland. Thank you very much. I'd like to take you way, way, way back before you realized your mom was human like you. What was the idea you had of your mother at that tender age when you think your parents are super human? You know, it's funny because now I say that I think it becomes very alive in the journey of being a mother and nurturing your own children and being, you know, like them looking up to you and how we look at our mothers when we are young. You know when they tell you things and they tell you I know I have been there before, you do not really quite understand what they mean. But now I have learned to appreciate my mother more because I've realized the challenges that come with motherhood, I've understood why sometimes she had to do things the way she did. You know, like even displeaning, sometimes it'd be like, I say something to my mother. Does she even love me? Does she even love me? No, and I look at my children and I'm like, you know, one day you'll realize I love you. I love that right now. I love right now. Alright, so then I'll bring you back. I'll take you back, but not way, way back as such. So when you founded this organization, what was going on in your life? I, like I said before, I went through postpartum depression with my second child. I had three babies and my first one, I was very okay. I gave back to my first one, I took care of her. She still had several issues here and there was a first time mom, but I got a lot of support from family, from friends, from everybody, everyone was checking and I was okay. But to my second one, I suffered postpartum depression and it was hard for us to understand why I'm struggling like this, because I'm not a first time mom. My baby has colic and she has become a cry baby and I'm not sleeping very well at night, but I have done this before. So why is it different this time, why do I look like, why do I feel like I'm struggling like this? And it is not until like someone came and told me that I might actually be ill that he came to realize that the struggle and how I am feeling at that point is actually an illness and what I need to do is to actually go and seek help so that I can feel better. So I went through very difficult episodes. I had become very emotional, I had lost hope, I felt like my life has lost meaning. I am not sleeping at night because most of the times I'll just be there crying. The baby is always crying. It got to a point where I could not even latch the baby properly so the baby is not getting enough milk to feed on and the baby is also having colic, colic is gas in the stomach and it tends to bother children very much. So my baby became such a cry baby which not took at all on me as well. So it became very difficult for me to even take care of this baby. How was it bonding with the baby? The bonding was very difficult for me to say. I cannot say that we had a bond at that point because I was suffering myself and I felt like the reason why I'm suffering like this is this baby. Like I wanted a baby but I didn't see the issues that came with it because I had not gone through this with my first baby. So when it happened it became very hard for me to get myself back together to even get help. And you see the people around you as much as like half sisters, half family. But when you talk to them they really do not understand because maternal mental health has not been understood very well. Depression in mothers, anxiety in mothers has not been understood very well. So sometimes people just don't understand you. So what they look at, look at it as is as you have changed. So to them you have changed, you've become different and it has changed when you got this baby. So since you got a baby you have changed but that is just as much as they know. So how to support you they also do not know. So you will suffer, you will have some people probably having checking up on you but they will not know the right way to help you. So it's always good to seek professional help. It is very important to seek professional help but you see until you understand that you are in need of that help, you might not go for that help. So that's why it's important for us to have this conversation so that we're telling you if you feel like these and things have changed after you give birth, please go see a counselor. Let them tell you you're okay or you're not okay and if you're not okay this is what we can do for you, this is how we can help you. So that you don't just sit there thinking that you've just changed and life should just continue and you will get better someday. You can never snap out of a mental illness, you can never snap out of it. So it's listed as a mental illness, post-partanal depression. It is. Under the World Health Organization. All right, so I was having this conversation with one of my workmates some time back and she was telling me that she went through this, it was very hard for me to believe and I'm pretty sure it's very hard for half the studio to believe that this thing exists. Why do you think it's hard for us to believe that there's something like post-partanal depression? Post-partan depression being a mental illness is something that only the person who is suffering from it actually understands that they are not okay. Mental illness is not like physical illness. Physical illness, you'll be able to say, I have a wound, I have something that can be seen. Mental illness, if you're suffering, you're mentally ill, I'll not be able to see. And so it has become very difficult for people to believe when you say that you're depressed, which is also making so many people with mental illness suffer alone without help. And that's why we also have a lot of issues on people dying by suicide, because they're struggling alone, nobody's believing them. People think that you're looking for attention and so nobody comes to assist you and then you suffer alone and then you end up, you know. All right, childbirth has always been portrayed as this wonderful time, a blessing from God and everything. So I guess that is one of the reasons. It's very hard for me to believe you can be depressed after giving birth. Do you think we should change this narrative and then speak the truth as it is? We should. We should. That is where the conversation has to start. We need to make women and mothers understand that it's okay to say that motherhood is not easy for you and motherhood, it can never be that easy for anybody, because it comes with these challenges. Remember, when you're starting your first baby, you are alone, then these other baby has come. They never come with a manual. You always say that. It sounds like a cliché. But you have to figure out how to do it alone. Did they come with a plate? How could they not sign me up by then? Yeah, so it becomes very difficult for moms to speak out if they feel like everybody else is having it easy. Because when you go to social media, if you ever think about the friends that you know who have babies on social media, they only bring out the pictures of the beautiful side of motherhood. They bring pictures of them holding their children and saying it's such a blessing and so awesome and all that, but they never come back with pictures of yesterday I could not sleep. I feel like a zombie. I am not thinking right. Like motherhood is not easy and it's okay to say motherhood is not easy. I just think that doesn't make you a bad mother. It doesn't mean that you're a bad mother because you struggle through motherhood and today you just don't feel like you love your baby as much, you know, because there are those times when your baby will just be there and you feel like it's taking a toll on you and you're like, I am not even sure I was ready for this motherhood thing. But the truth is, as long as you get the right support and you remember to ask for help, because again, as mothers, you always feel like we need to do everything alone. Please, it is okay to ask for help because the moment you get that help, the more you're able to care of yourself, you can get that sleep, which is very important, because sleep, sleep, you know, people just talk about, can you get enough sleep? And you just feel like, you know, sleep is very important. It is very important. It's one of the reasons why you might end up depressed. If you don't get enough sleep at night, you might just get depressed. So you have to be very intentional about helping yourself as well. You need to be careful to ask for help. You need to be careful to, you know, be physically fit. Physically fit. Physical fitness is also mental illness, like a mental health, I mean, they are very intertwined. You need to be physically active to also enhance your mental well-being. Yes, so it's very important. Stay physically active to enhance your mental well-being. Yes. Our guest of the day right there, remember we are on social media and our conversation is post-partum stress, post-maternal stress. Post-partum stress. Post-partum depression. Post-partum depression. But the bigger word is maternal mental health. Maternal mental health. Yes, because there is anxiety under it. There is post-traumatic stress disorder. You probably had a traumatic bad experience and it has taken a toll on you because you cannot get yourself out of it. We need ten interviews for this. There are some topics. Yes. So what is the umbrella for everything? Maternal mental health. Maternal mental health. Yes. Maternal mental health is a topic of conversation. Why to fight for channel on Twitter? Why to fight for, underscore channel on Instagram and why to fight for on Facebook? If you have a question send it away and our very able guest right here will be able to answer. All right. So another thing I'd like to know, as a brother who has sisters who have kids, what can I do to maybe prevent this or support just in case they are going through this because they might never tell me? What we advocate for is support. We don't have to wait until they are already in depression for us to come in and help them. Your sister, your friend, your brother, because men also have depression, they also get depressed. Yes. There's also men who go through postpartum depression. That's why you work with pregnant women and new parents. Yes. All right. When you say new parents, it's the dads and the moms. Yes. All right. So men can also go through this. Men can also go through it. It is that men because of the society again, they do not accept that they are suffering, it is not a good thing by the way. It's very important to allow yourself to be vulnerable so that you go for help because if you don't get help again, it will take a toll on you and you need help to get better. So it's very important. Help in cups. Help in cups. Very, very important. Very, very important. So as a brother, as a friend, what you need to do is be there to support that person. Automatically when a mother gets a baby, they need help. If you're a friend, you need to go there and visit. Don't go there and expect her to be the one who is serving you. Be there to wash the dishes, be there to clean the house, be there to hold the baby, let them have a one-hour nap, like just be there to help. I'm a sister. I have a sister who is delivered. I need to be there to offer support and help. Check on them. Like you need to be present because remember, someone who is going through a mental illness, you are just coming randomly after six months and asking how they are doing. Will not be a safe space for them to accept that they are suffering and be ready to give that conversation that they are actually suffering. But if you've been present continuously, then they will tell you, hey, today I really struggled, this is what happened. And when a mom now feels like, you know, there's a time when a mom will even come and tell you, I am not sure I even love this baby. I just feel like I just want to either abandon them or I just feel like I have had thoughts of even humming my baby. So then you're able to know that this person, dealing with moms, you have heard all these stories, people coming to us because they are either getting help for themselves or help for their friends or people they know. These are the kind of stories that come up. And until you have that honest conversation with that person, they will not be open enough to tell you how they truly are doing. But the moment you're present, then they are able to tell you. And then you can get them help or you can, you know, tell them to seek help. And then they can start their journey to recovery. Wonderful writer. I have a theory. Are you ready to listen? So either you'll tell me if I'm correct or not. All right, so people claim depression and mental illness is not an African thing. All right, so I'm guessing back in the day we used to have a society that was set up in a different way. Then post colonization, we started living like the Westernized guys. So we can't say we don't have the same problems as them when we leave as them. Is my theory correct? Not. It's not correct. All right, bring me out to speak. It is not correct. And let me tell you, mental illness, by the way, it is very widely known. I know that theory. People believe that mental illness is a Western kind of an illness. So any time you say you're depressed, you're like, what's wrong with you? Why are we starting? I don't know. You're a Zoom. But that is not correct because remember, it's an illness like any other illness. And it does not choose who it is going to affect. Anybody can get mentally ill. And the reason why there's also another one that goes that people keep on asking, why did our mothers not go through these issues? They also got, in fact, very many key children. You're probably suffering with one. They probably got nine, you know. And the question comes, how come they never suffered? But remember, like you said, initially, children when a child is born, they used to be a community. You know, like the whole community used to come around you and support you. A child used to belong to the community, including the disciplining, you know? Yes, yes, yes. I never loved that part, though. I don't understand why my uncle gets angry. I know. It's because children were taken as a community, like they belong to the community. So I never, mother would, you know, deliver. Everybody of the neighbors are there with, you know, jugs of Uji. They're there with soap. They're there to hold the baby for you. They're there to support you. Nowadays, things have changed. People rarely, like, probably don't even know your neighbor. Like in an apartment together, you don't even know your neighbor. You just normally meet on the lift stairs and you just say hi and that's it. You do not know each other. So even when you deliver, they're not going to come and support you. And even if you're lucky to have a partner, he's probably working 90 hours a week. Oh, yes. And then, of course, it's also very important for us to also, like, forget about the African way of doing things the way, you know, men are told that they're things, they're roles that are supposed to be for women. So when a child comes there, you cannot even hold the diaper. You cannot change the diaper. You cannot give milk because the mother is there, they're not supposed to do it. No, we are, you know, it's 2020, surely. Things have changed. Things have changed. And as long as you support your wife, then you can expect your marriage to be OK. But if you do not support your wife and she ends up depressed, remember, it will also affect your marriage. So by helping her, you know, just helping her, just as in, like, the moment you help her, you're helping her to be OK. You're helping your marriage to work. You're helping her to be able to bond well with the baby as well. You're securing the future of the baby as well. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. One last question before we talk about Kama and as an organization. I'd like to know, how does post maternal depression impact on the baby at a later stage in life if it's not well taken care of? You see, when a mother is suffering, what they will not be able to do, the basic things that she's supposed to do for your child, is normally the vaccinations that the child is supposed to be taken for. If this mom is even fearing leaving the house, so chances are that they won't even take the child for vaccination, then this child will not be able to bond with the mother as they should. There's going to be the issue of breastfeeding, because when you are not OK mentally, then you also have problems having enough milk. So the baby is supposed to benefit from your milk, but you're not able to produce enough. So the baby again suffers because they're not able to benefit from milk milk. So the issue now arises because there's not bond with the child. The child is not being able to feed from the milk. So health-wise, they don't end up developing the way that the child was physically affected. Mentally, they're affected. Because remember, the child is very dependent on the mom. When the mom is well and they have a good bond with the child, then there is a sense of security. There is a sense of belonging, because they have a special attachment with the mother. But the moment that is lacking, the child also gets affected mentally. And that's why we normally say mental illness can be intergenerational. It goes down generations. If you're depressed and you do not get help, it could pass down to your children. It could pass on their children if they don't get help in time and they don't recover. Then, of course, it passes on to their children. So it becomes a generational issue. So you helping yourself, you've not only helped yourself, you've helped your children. You've also helped the baby to be OK so that it does not fall down into their children, their children's children. So it's very, very important. I have a neighbor with a baby or with a child. Not so old. I don't know how to estimate the age as well. About this hydra here. His name is Rodney. Ask me how I know his name. Because his mom in the apartment block, the mom always calls Rodney at volume 30. Rodney's always running. Rodney there and Rodney gets spanked. Rodney and a chap who are left, right and center. Is this a symptom of such a case? It's not all those cases that are mental, as in like they're related to a mental illness because maybe Rodney, the mom is not able to hold her calm when Rodney is all over. Because boys can also be all over. So sometimes she loses her cool and she doesn't have to be truly mentally ill for her to react like that. Sometimes though, if you realize that it's not going beyond just, you know, you definitely want to just confirm whether there's beyond because it is also doing damage if they're not connecting with that child. Every other time it's her being violent on the child. If it's her always being, you know, on the child's case and all that. Because then, of course, that also affects the child. So that needs to be. But it's not all. Some people are just not good people. I'm just not worried that someone is mentally ill for them to do something. Because also remember, there are women who kill their own children. We call it infanticide if you kill your child before one year post-childbirth. Because that is the period within which you are taken to be very prone to a mental illness. Yeah, so when you go to court, it becomes a lesser sentence. It's called infanticide. So you're going to be charged with a lesser sentence. But because you're taken that you are not in your right state, you're not completely recovered. So you might do that as a result of what you're going through your emotions, your hormones, and all that. So you might end up killing your child. However, there is the cases of infanticide which are truly, the mother is not OK. There are also other cases where it's just people who are not good people. Some people are just loud. Some people are just loud also. So you want to confirm whether it's a case of a mental illness or not. All right, come on. The organization, what is your physical location? We are located in Westlands, Nairobi. That's where our physical location is. We also have a website. If you want to know and understand more of what we do, you can go to our website. It's calmandfoundation.org. Just tell them. Look them straight into their eyes when you tell them things like that. Yes, we have a website. And it's calmandfoundation.org. You can see more about us, what we do, what we are involved in doing. We are happy to get more people on board if you want to be part of what we are doing. It's always good to do things as a community because it affects each one of us. The more, since we started, we started it as my initiative because of what I had gone through. Right now, we have a WhatsApp support group with 150 moms. And we support each other. We offer support. We also do noble things like some of the projects that we have done. They have come in and supported some of the projects that we are doing in some of the places around Nairobi. And so doing this, you cannot do it alone. But when you come together as a community and as people who have a heart and a passion for seeing mothers get better and take care of their children, become a happy community, then it is good to always be involved in such activities. So what we do is that we have projects that we run, which is the WhatsApp support group. We are active on WhatsApp support group because we believe when you come together, we are able to support each other. What we call peer-to-peer support. We're able to support each other. And if a mother is going through a difficult time, we have counselors who are in the group as well. And they are able to support them and offer them counseling services. And then we also have events. So the events are more on education. We are big on education because we believe the moment we have more education, and people understand that mental illness is not a Western issue. The better. And it also helps with the stigma. You know, eradicating the stigma and discrimination because that is why mothers are not able to access help and go for help because they are. It's the stigma that surrounds mental illness. Then we also, so we do a lot of events to educate the society, to educate mothers. We also have support group sessions. We have one that we started in Kawangwara. So we have one for pregnant moms and another one for new moms. We want to bring dads on board. It has not been easy. Please bring dads on board. Please bring dads on board. It's not going to be very easy because it's hard to, like dads are very difficult to just come and accept that I need help, I need to do this. And the extra time is spent watching football. And sharing beers. The moment they realize that mental illness and getting help for mental illness is just as important as getting help for physical illness. We will help ourselves so much. Like we won't have all this. We are going to be able to reduce the number of people who are dying by suicide because that is where it starts. If you don't get help, you're going to go watch your football. You're still not okay. You go back home. You're still ill. Wake up with the same problems. And then it takes a toll on you and before you know it, you are at that edge. You cannot help yourself anymore. So it's very, very important for the mental also to come on board. We are also actively involved with the Mental Health Amendment Bill. It's a bill that is in parliament. It went through the Senate. It's currently in National Assembly. So we are providing this because we, the mental health health that we talk about currently, it's sponsored by Senator Sylvia Casanga. Shout out to Senator Sylvia Casanga right there. Yes, she has truly helped us because the act that we are currently have is a 1991 yes law. So I mean, so much has happened. We have a new constitution. We have so many things that have changed. So it was very important for us to have another law that reflects the issues that we have right now. And it is a very good law. So we are very actively involved in trying to push for reach to pass because the moment we have a good law, then it means that we can also access good services. We can hold people accountable to offer us good mental health services because mental health has not just been forgotten in the conversations, but even in prioritization in health agenda, mental health has been given, you know, like it has been forgotten. Yes, it is only now that I realize that even the president recently spoke about mental health when he was calling for the task force to be formed. And it's because it has become very obvious that there is an issue. The cases of people committing suicide are very high. People killing each other. People killing each other in relationships. Exactly. So I think it has become very obvious and I'm happy that finally someone has realized that it's time we do something about it. And so things are now happening. So we are very actively involved in policy work as well because we believe good policies, if implemented, then it means that better services are going to be available for the people. How can we support Senya Takasanga first? In pushing this bill? Senya Takasanga, you can reach her. You can reach her. She's very available for anyone who wants to contact her, who wants to reach out to her and support her with the bill and even have these conversations because you see when we come together and have a voice in the bill, we are going to have a good bill that encompasses all areas of mental health. So it's very important for us to have our eyes and our voices in that bill and in laws. So she's very available. You can reach her. There's always a way. She's on social media. She's on Facebook. I sent it to Sylvia Takasanga. You can just have a conversation there and start a conversation there. You can email her. So she's very open to having a conversation and reaching out. Another big shout out to Senya Takasanga. If you know what I tell her, we give her a shout out. That's why I tell her for what she's doing for mental health. So come mind, the vision for come mind. The vision for come mind. Because you're more or less told that it's a mission and what you're doing. So what is the vision within? Our vision is to eradicate stigma and discrimination on mental health. Eradicate? Yes, because the moment we eradicate the stigma, then it means that someone will go for services. It means that services will be prioritized. It means that people are going to understand but the time we are done with the stigma, the same way we did with HIV. Remember when there was a lot of stigma around HIV? There was, people would not go even to get tested because you are afraid when I get myself called. People would not share a room with post-EVs. Yes, you see. Now things have changed because the voices were so loud and people understood that it is not a dead sentence. So in the same case, we need to have our voices out there for us to eradicate that stigma, that's around mental health so that people are able to go for those services and understand that it is okay to accept you're not okay and you need help. All right, yes. Another thing that people are always scared of when it comes to accepting their mentally ill is later on, it affects your life. Say you have it on record, you've been mentally ill before and you're applying for a job, maybe. Chances are you're going to get hurt if you're going to be saying, applying to teach Sunday school in church, you have a history of mental illness, people are going to judge you. How can we deal with this? You see, we have to have one discrimination because that is discrimination, like it has become, it is the way things are, I agree with you. That is how things are. The moment you come out and say that I have been suffering with anxiety, depression, whatever it is, then you of course get discriminated. Nobody, people will not tell you, we are not giving you this job because of such and such confession, but that's the truth, it's a truth and it's unfortunate. It's very, very unfortunate. Unfortunately, the only way we are going to get to a place where you're not discriminated by virtue of having a mental illness is if we have this voice. Keep talking about it. Keep on talking so that people realize that because I'm depressed, doesn't mean that I cannot work. There are people who are depressed and they are all of us and there are people who are making it big and they have had their own challenges with mental illness. So having a mental illness doesn't make you, it doesn't equal to disability that you're not able to do anything and so if you give this job, you're not going to be able to deliver. It's just a chip on. Yeah, they only need to go for help. They need to go and probably if it's cancelling, if it's medication and they are okay and they are able to work as anybody else. So it does not equal to not being able to deliver. You couldn't have said it better and thank you very much for that and thank you very much for what you're doing. One last thing. This is Gwyn's Wednesday. This is strength of a woman but I always love to represent for a boy child. Yes, very well. So there's that boy child out there who's probably about to have a baby and he ran away from the woman. There's a boy child out there who has a baby who's never contacted the mother of the child for a very long time. What would you tell this person? What is the importance of a child having a father figure in their life? If you are out there and you know you have a baby out there, it is very, very important for you to be present in the lives of your child because we have single mothers who have made it and they've brought up very good children and they are well and they are okay but there's always that support system also comes with having a father figure in their lives and I love that things have changed. Nowadays, even when you father a child and you don't end up with the mother of the child, I see so many people who are co-parenting. It has become very acceptable nowadays and there are so many mothers and fathers who are co-parenting their child. So they probably even remarried but the child, the father of the child is always present in their lives of their biological children. It is very, very important for that child to grow up knowing, this is my biological father, it's okay, they probably have another father but it helps them to not feel like they were, you know, a child sometimes gets to a point where as a single mother and they realize that their father just walked out of their lives and they start blaming them. Their friends have fathers. Yes, at school, when they're talking about my father this, my father that, you do not have someone to talk about in terms of a father in their lives. So it helps the child to just have a sense of belonging and also feel wanted because if you run away from their lives, they start asking themselves, is it that I did not look like I was good enough for him to want to be in my life and then it is so unfortunate that some of those fathers will not be present in the lives of their children until when they are 18 and when they are probably marrying or getting married. The number one in case, yes, yeah. The mother struggled, she did everything alone and then when the child is now an adult, now you want to be present. It complicates everything. It complicates everything and it's not for even for the child. So as much as some of them work, some relationships, some children are able to forgive their fathers and all that, but it's very, very important. If you are out there and you know your father that child, it does not mean that because you're in the life of your child, you must be in the life of the mother. If things are not working between you and the mother of the child, it is fine, but please make sure that you are in the life of your child. Thank you very much for coming through to Why in the Morning. One last thing, remind them of the website and the social media and the helpline if you have one. Yes, you can find us on our website. You can access us on our websites. Our website is kalmanfoundation.org. We have social media platforms. On Facebook, we are Kalman Foundation. On Twitter, we are at Kalman F and on Instagram, we are at Kalman F. We are happy to interact with you. Should you need help? If you're a mom out there and you need and you've been wondering where you can get help, please reach out to us. We are very open to walk this motherhood journey with you and to support you. Thank you. All right, wonderful. I can't add on to that. Remember, this is strength of a woman and if you think there's an amazing woman like this when it was doing amazing stuff out there that needs to be on the spotlight, I send the information out there on our social media handles that was right there below the screen. My name is Barry Moses. This is strength of a woman on Why in the Morning on Queens Wednesday. Kalami Val is coming up next with another fire topic. You don't want to miss it.