 So, so this is me and my geeky science education days and so that culture and I just have like kind of just just for a little bit of lighter side of things. I've got a bit of a video that kind of it well it's just kind of fun but it also adds to, you know how that culture is, if it decides to open. Okay, when school isn't a place you have to be. Okay, we might have to close that down so it's deciding to be really slow right now. I'm gonna go. Okay, I will leave that. It was it was just really something dorky anyhow, but you know, oh, there it is. There's still running spirals so we'll just leave that. It's kind of, and I don't know if anybody I think Danielle's lived in that world before but it's, it's a world where where that whole idea of. I was setting up my camera earlier. Now I just need to find my slides back again. Where did they go. It's a whole world where the sort of the notion and the way the way you work is everybody you know kind of goes to everybody else's different parks programs. They share their different things that they're doing whether it's like doing alcohols which is what myself and Glenn were doing here. And there is, well, just I'll do the geeky thing that was in the video. But it was something I learned off of one of the parks guys in BC was to do a barred owls call it sounds like who cooks for you who cooks for you who cooks for you all. But you do to do it properly have to do it in stages the first stages of doing an English accent so who cooks for you who cooks for you who cooks for you all. No, if anybody feels like joining in. No. Okay, so the second stage is an English accent and peanut butter in your mouth so it's like who cooks for you who cooks for you who cooks for you all. And then the next stage is an English accent peanut butter in your mouth in your mouth in the shape of an owl so it's like. So those sorts of Glenn here he'd sort of grown up in Ontario Park so when he was teaching me this has actually sounded much more like a barred owl than mine does. But it was those little kind of things that we teach each other and then we share and we'd remix or the different stories about the different plants like the Douglas fir trees and so the feet and tail that are sticking out of the cones and the ears inside and we'd all have a story for that. And so, I always thought that's how education is you share you remix, nobody's ideas of their own you give credit back to whoever taught you or whoever they told you they got that from originally and and that's just how education was I probably saw my first contract later on in my mid 20s where somebody tried to get me to write something in that gave them. That meant that any ideas I shared with them would become their ideas and their copyright and I remember saying to them well, I can't do that because these ideas come from generations worth of people. These are not my ideas per se I'm just remixing them. Um, so it wasn't really till I was doing my masters and I was sort of running the master bed techs community feed that I started to see this, this word OER and I started sought first from tennis Morgan because she's always talking about OER is on on Twitter. And so I attended my first OER conference last year, it was lovely it was in Galway, and I was supposed to actually attend the only global last year I just unfortunately couldn't afford to so plus side of that that's how I ended up getting the BC IT grant though. So, it's um, yeah. Anyhow when I when I first, you know, started going to and attending these conferences in like the conference in in Galway. I was looking at everything and I'm like, Okay, well, this is going back to this whole world that I worked in here where we were remixing everything and resharing everything. And isn't that just what education's all about. Like when I worked as a classroom teacher. I used to create stuff and share stuff and we did our little kids science show there. It was all about creating works for teachers to to use and to share and to bring science to life in their classrooms. At conferences, there seemed to be a disconnect there wasn't a lot of the younger teachers there that that that could use the the OER content. I was questioning whether those teachers actually knew the term to get that content and to look it up. And there seemed to be a lot of people building great things but where was it going and I've been noticing the same problem in my master's so we're getting asked to build OER is quite a bit in my master's at the moment. But I'm with the majority of students in our program, they're just putting up pages. This is alibi the way they're putting up pages for the OER and building these OER's for their class assignments but then I think they just get left and they don't get shared with anybody beyond the people in our actual class. And so, when I was getting ready for this talk and that's what gave me the idea for the talk. When I was getting ready for this talk I decided to ask in my current master's class about, you know, what they saw some of the problems being around people understanding what OER's were all about. And this is the crazy thing is the student that answered me who's, who's, you know, she's a bright student and all the, all the rest of it sorry I'm trying to get rid of the one thing so I can. My picture of you guys is sitting right over top of the writing so Danielle do you mind just reading what it says there because I can't see all of it. All right, it says hi Erica. I'm going to pose an unhelpful question to you which might prove to be helpful. I'll be vulnerable and admit that I don't understand most of your post. Actually, I still don't really understand OER's beyond the context of this course. Are we talking Wikipedia. Are OER's just technical blogs. Are hipster travel couple blogger sites OER's. I didn't actually realize OER's were thing. Those are my embarrassing questions why they why they may be helpful as this. My challenges are in understanding what they are, where to find them, what their purposes and evaluating the validity of them. I don't think my educator friends know about or use OER's. They either also don't know about them, or concerned about the quality of information. I think they're all too busy marking and filing paperwork to create OER's. I don't know how to use hashtags. Bad millennial. I think that OER's need to be advertised better to educators, even sold by answering those questions I had above. But this looks very cool. Would you be able to give a brief pitch for OER global. Apologies for offering you more questions than answers. So, if we've got somebody who's in a master's program for educational technology, and they don't know what OER's are. This completely paints the picture for what the problem or what one of the problems and one of the challenges is out there right now. And I mean, ultimately, the whole reason why I, you know, sort of put this this idea out there is because it's because I think what's happening here is I think we're speaking a different language than the majority of teachers that are working out there are doing or speaking. And so it, I think there's a bunch of people who are creating OER's. And it's not getting into this community and vice versa the content from this community isn't getting back out there to the teachers that are working and needing the content or the homeschooling families or the community ed teachers, you know, the various different parties, parties that there are out there. And so I have a bit of a background in and I'm glad we have somebody else. It's Anita that you that has done the marking right. I have a bit of a background putting together campaigns and stuff like that and, and building niche audiences and I know that there's some other people here that have done some of that work before to. And so what I'm hoping is that we can start to tackle this issue and maybe have some steps at the end of this that we can start to do to put into play so that that we can do some community awareness building and and get the resources into the hands of the people that can use them. So with that, I've got a bunch of questions to start off with here. And so the reason why I'm in this room is because I've got a board back here. Danielle I'm still going to run into the problem right now with not being able to read what the questions I wrote on the screen if you don't mind reading them. And then I will be the secretary in the background here. And if anybody thinks of any additional questions to add, please by all means jump in. And I'm going to try to kill my computer while I balance it on the chair. There we go. Thank you for the question. Erica asks, what do you see as the challenges to awareness of open educational resources. Well, I can, I can start from my own experience. Teachers are always very passionate about their profession. And then you tell them about OERs within one minute if it's about copyright, and then you see their, their, their, their, maybe their interest disappear completely. So I think it's a challenge. One of the challenges is how can you tell people tell teachers about OER, connecting them to their passion so connected and directly to their, to their teaching and the way I approach it. It's not easy to work but it is not scalable is that every teacher has some barriers which prevent them from to teach the, the, the optimal lesson they want. And to analyze how OER can help them to overcome those barriers. Then you have to have attention. So one way to do this, it's not, not a recipe for that. So that I consider that as one of the big challenges. Thank you Robert. Alan, can you turn on record just so that so that when I go to write this up for all of us later I don't, you know, forget anything. We're already recording. Oh, we are. Okay. Any other people that want to jump in on the challenges. I would say it's not or shattering anything like that, but time in this case or kind of a focus on teaching or research or whatever they're doing at the moment. Perfect sure like faculty seems to focus on that and sometimes do not hear about the good stuff of open education resources. This is less, I would say also just the idea of change. This is something different and change is scary. And they, you know, faculty a lot of times have been doing things in the same way they know how that works they know that how that works with their students. And so the idea of change is, is hard. That's one of the silver linings of the pandemic at least where we are is we're seeing everybody a little more willing to look at different ways to change. And, and moving outside the box towards things like this that they would not consider before because it just seemed a little out there, but I have found that that that's definitely a silver lining of all this. Anybody else want to add in. It's kind of an unusual, I don't know, it's just something that I've noticed is. And I don't think it's deliberate because it's going to sound really negative but a misperception among some faculties about what students would actually consider affordable. And talking about we are well, my textbook really isn't that expensive and then they rattle off the price and I'm like, that would have been a big expense for me as a student. And, and so they think it's reasonable in their mind because it's something that they could easily afford, but they don't really think about the fact that their students might not be in the same situation. So, like I said that's kind of a weird one and it's not something that I think is done deliberately. So, yeah. Yeah, I think there is something where teachers also like some teachers make an additional income from that which I think I think you know, sort of this whole world potentially is challenging, you know a source of their income which is, you know my cause, cause concern. I dropped a master's class once for that very reason. The person teaching it wanted you to purchase the book that they had just published and it was really expensive. So, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's interesting. I, I, I kind of think that, you know, providing my materials as part of teaching the class so it would never occur to me to charge for them. It's, I mean, but we're also coming from a different worlds right you know we've been teaching you know I'm teaching online now right and we're in a digital that provide all that content where they're coming from to get students that content before they had to have it in some printed format. Anybody else. Yeah I've got one issue I came across in my research is. This is true this is one person's perception was about the culture of sharing. So it looks like professors are based on this one person's perspective it looks like professors are willing to create we are, but less willing to borrow and adapt. And that's part of that is, if you create an OER, then you've created a course you can put that on your resume whether there's any compensation for creating something simply because it's an OER. But there was it seems that there was more pride in creating an OER and that to borrow someone else's. Maybe that's perceived as being lazy or so the, the, the philosophy of OER and the culture of open education is not fully adopted. Among some people. I can confirm that for a bit but I can also give some counter examples. I actually did the research about in the Netherlands about the about reuse because I think reuse of OER is is a rather under research topic when you when you look at research about OER it's always about sharing, but less about reuse and the only thing which is research deep in the research is which barriers exist. But I did, I did a study in the Netherlands, where I wanted to find out more about, okay, is reuse actually going on. And what I found friends friends is that teachers teaching computer science are really in into reuse and much more than another group which I compare this and those are teachers in nursing education, which were much less and when I was looking for some explanations for it. The teachers from computer science told me, well, it's in our, it's in, yes, in our genes, when they all are able to program so our computer programs and they say we never make computer programs from scratch we are always looking for code open source and they do naturally the same for for resources so they, they, they are not creating resources from scratch or hardly doing this, but they, they, they start looking for something in the field, and which can, which they can use. And that's not always, oh, we are in the, in the smallest sense of the world, because they, they, if they don't want to adapt, they actually don't need actually creative commons license, they only need open access, but not the license to give them the right to adapt them. They are aware of that. And that is for that is some something I discovered and unfortunately I had too little data to see that for all fields. So, but, but, well, we've written a paper about this and it is accepted and we publish in open practice, one of these days, so they can read more about it. Excellent. I'll put the link up to that in the comments on the, on the. Yeah, it is, it is published this, this, this issue in which this research is done is not published it will be in the next issue of open practices. Well, we'll have to start a way that we can then share it with the group afterwards. And then when you do publish it that we can, I can email it or send it out to everybody. Thank you for that. And that makes sense because that whole computer science, like if they're, if they're a real computer scientist and they've been using open sort in part of the open source culture for a while. Since that's not new versus, you know, nurses, they wouldn't really have been exposed to that culture. Sorry, I just want to add. Part of my research involved someone representing the open source community and he confirms what you say this is again one person speaking, but he is a person who strongly is involved in the open source community and he was trying to bring the culture of open source community into the open education community. What I'd like to add is that Ross added a comment in the chat saying a motivation for OER is the intrinsic rewards for creating OER. Yeah, I would agree with that too. And I wrote about that a while ago. Getting people to create OER. And then you get that emotional kind of engagement and attachment. And I'm very likely to adopt after that as well. I think one of the things we're talking about here too is there is I think a bit of a difference. Because in this, in this is something we're going to get into later on there's different silos. So a lot of what I'm hearing here are from the silos of sort of the more post secondary academic academics whereas in K to 12. Those teachers are generally in survival mode most of the year. And so they're constantly reusing other people's content there it may not be. I mean I think there is pride in what they create but they also don't have the issue of if they find something from somebody else of reusing it. And I really think we're missing that K to 12 sector of teachers with the term OER at the moment. I also think there's then there's we've got that whole community educator part through museums and parks and things like that, who don't think BC is unique in the in culture that interpretation Canada had where, well, the name interpretation Canada clearly sees not unique in that that's a sharing culture to but they don't know. This is not a word they're familiar with right now to so. So I think we've got different layers of the issue here, which, which is good to understand. Anybody else prefer to move on to the next question or another slice into everybody says yes sharing is good I'm into it. I used to do some online talks about this and I would put up a blank whiteboard and I would ask this question or the barriers to sharing. And I was astounded by how much people critically looked at their own work and said, my work's not as good as others. I'm not, I don't think this is good enough to put out there it's not refined. I'm not, I don't compare to the person X who's a big name in the field so I think there's a lot of self criticism of people's own work and they don't. They don't see the value like they missed the whole value in their own work. There was a was that video by Derek Severs about like just just having one person saying what you did mean something to me just flips the switch for other people and, but I think there's a lot of self criticism that stops people from sharing. Well, I can support that point Alan it through my research in that people who who begin to get involved in the open education world feel that way until they build confidence in the community. Another thing is that people who get involved in building we are the more they become aware of it the more they get involved the more their community builds and so once the confidence within the community builds then people may feel comfortable sharing what they've got. And, and Sarah put in the chat that imposter syndrome is is real and yeah that very much as a situation with people new to open education. And one thing I'd like to add to what Erica was saying earlier. Well I worked at the Museum of Canadian Museum of Nature for a while and that's a place where people are used to working face to face. The knowledge of technology there was quite low in fact I had developed a small training module for for someone having done a small needs analysis prior to that and once I was done I was once it was done I was told. Oh well we don't want a tech based training we want face to face, because the staff aren't very much used to tech and so okay fine so they have tech issues and so that becomes a barrier to using we are because they don't have the basic will or skills for tech use. And now that we're in this pandemic. There's an issue in that well how how does a place like that deliver educational programs, if a lot of the staff are afraid or not used to working with technology so there's several layers of barriers there to to working with And that's a really good point is that that I mean with we are that is a difference that that tech component. And I just want to add the point from Robert here saying that in the Netherlands there is a national network for national platform for sharing OER in K 12 and there's a website linked there. Yeah, maybe maybe that's one thing that would help is to have national communities as one enabler to OER use. Can somebody take a note of just because I'm obviously not taking a note of the website can somebody take a note of the website so that we can put it in our notes later. We'll save the chat for you. Thank you. Okay, so going on to our next question. Can somebody read that. Here we go. For OER creators. What are your challenges in getting your OERs to your end users. I think making it findable. So that is the work of adding metadata, adding tags, making, yeah, creating some kind of manual maybe in which you describe when it is a larger OER for instance what goal it has, how much it takes, how much time it will take and so on. Those things are typically found in commercial materials but are hardly not present in OERs and it makes it harder for their end users which can be other teachers which will reuse ours or can be students who want to use these OERs to find out if those are OERs they actually need for the goal they are looking for. So I think that is for OER creators a challenge how to with as less work as possible, how to make it findable in such a way that it is findable for people and usable for people who will come across it. And I don't think that I definitely think and that's actually the way we try to implement our projects in the Netherlands that creating OERs is not one single person it's teamwork. So you need for instance a librarian who can assist you in all the nitty gritty details of copyright, who can assist you in adding the metadata, who maybe can assist you in uploading it to repository. So that's actually the way we think it will work because teachers don't want to do those things and in many cases aren't able to do those things. This is Anita. Robert, I'm a big fan of the idea of trying to push more metadata in these digital platforms because if I understand you correctly it helps with discovery. And so for example in the link I put in the press books, there is a section in the book information where you can add subject tags. And of course the press books itself is formatted to preserve style tags, HTML style tags, and so as well as the embedded hyperlinks. So I feel that those are the kinds of things that make OER discoverable in your regular search engines like your Googles and your who's in your beings and that helps reach an audience beyond your OER audience but perhaps even larger audience. Some of these intro OER quote unquote textbooks actually could be quite accessible to your lay reader who's maybe just interested in learning a little bit more about art history or, you know, biology or geology. But if, if that's kind of what you're talking about I also think that that's something that could be implemented actually fairly simply, you just need somebody who kind of understands where to put the metadata like what what slot that goes into. So, I think what you're hitting on here to Anita is we need education to OER developers around how to use metadata because you just have to go over to YouTube and look, and especially in educational communities where it's appalling that they haven't used the proper titling they haven't used their descriptions in a way to allow people to find that content. Well, I can't, I mean, again, I'm kind of a newcomer to the field and I can't speak for them but I, my impression is yes that they, you know, when I get a Word document from an author, I usually have to clean up the code before I upload the press books because there's these little weird little styles that get like stuck in there right that random styles that mean nothing but they'll screw up the HTML so I go in there clean those out and make sure that the H1 heading is the H1 heading the H2 heading is properly tagged H3. And so I would tend to agree that that's, that's an issue and on the flip side of it, you know, kind of as you and Alan, and I are familiar with we come from more of that kind of outside marketing. It helps promote your book if you can make it accessible in a Google search. You know, that gets OER out of the little silo of just the OER community, which is, you know, a little bit insular I mean I've attended some sessions where they're talking about, where do we store these OER, you know, publications. So we're not creating silos, right and we don't have a standard I mean it's much too early to have a standard. But on the other hand, I think we have tools that can make OER accessible to a greater target audience right. You know your mass market lay reader, your open access journal, right. You know I do some editing for a company that their job is to help non native English speakers prepare their manuscripts, so they'll be accepted and then match them according to journal metrics and subject matter to a journal where they will hopefully have the best chance of getting published which then improves their status in the community. And these are trends I think that we'll start seeing that we can apply in OER as well to improve the visibility and also legitimacy. Right, I mean we want to get past the you get what you pay for just because it's free doesn't mean it's not any good. And that's my big thing is like, I want OER, like I want you to click on an OER publication from us and say hey man, I would pay 50 bucks for this book. And then the other advantage of OER is we can make it relevant and keep it current. Right, we're not, you know, the brand new addition actually is like 20 years old because you know took that long to get all the copyrights in place. So anyway, that's kind of my little, okay I got my soapbox now. No, that was a wonderful soapbox. One thing I just had a question of why I was listening to you to is, can, can, how many, can you, people raise their hands if they, they're familiar and, and I'm going to need either Alan or Danielle or somebody to look and see how many hands raise who are familiar with what search engine optimization is. How many hands that we see there. So, so, so, so I know what it is but I'm not able to to realize it. Okay, okay. And so, of the people who do know what it is, how many of you know how to, to properly do it to to utilize like do keyword keyword research and, and utilize that search engine. Optimization. And I needed as I figured you did. Anybody else. I'm a bit like Robert, I recognize the importance of it, but I probably would leave that to an expert. Okay, just yourselves. Maybe like just just in thinking ahead here, maybe something like SEO, like a workshop on it might be something that might be useful to do for the OER community at some stage of the game. And that makes a huge difference in search engines being able to find it find your content I was thinking that yesterday when you are probably mispronouncing his name terribly. I was was talking he was talking about his the tech that they've built to basically pull in different OERs for big students to search through the his tech base. In order for that to work you've got to have all this stuff like what Anita was talking about with metadata on there. You also need the words to be searchable under the terms that people would be looking at for them. I could do a quick screen share and show you how press books does it press books actually has this really nice. You start typing in like a subject. It's like primary secondary top subject tag and it actually fill in the one that's most appropriate. So you can like make sure that you're using those tags if, if, if you allow Anita to do her screen share there. You can see how the books, I can't show you dashboard but I can show you the where how it's like all associated with press books and you can see okay it's still not letting me share. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Sorry. Now you can. I almost made you host. Oh no don't make me host I don't want that much responsibility. I don't either. Okay, so can you see this now on the on the screen so this is the nanny's book and I was very intentional about trying to include metadata. So there is a field and I can't show you the dashboard because we shut the dashboard down after it was published but you can see here now. So you have a primary subject and what happens is when you type start to type in it'll bring you a drop down menu that'll let you choose. So that way you don't make the mistake of using a subject tag that isn't going to be very common it kind of guides you to the one that's most common or maybe falls under like one of the library standards the book catalog standards, and then you have the ability to fill in all these secondary. So presumably someone who's looking for say maybe some information on the French Revolution could actually find this book in a Google or a Bing search, and this is the search engine optimization SEO that Erica mentioned, right. And then I also saw fascinating discussion where they were talking about social media hashtags now I don't think that's something you can embed in a digital platform. I mean there might be a way maybe to put it in the meta description right meta title and meta description I think Alan and Erica you know what I'm talking about like maybe hashtags could go in there. They would be invisible, but I don't know if they would get picked up in a search engine and then speaking of social media it never hurts to help promote your, you know, OER text both just in social media and make sure again you throw in some hashtags. So again they'll get found by a wider general audience. Now, on that note, if I were to say niche communities and forums and community groups and stuff like that. How many people are familiar with those here. Okay, I see Alan raising his hand. Let's see a few head shakes. Okay, so, so that's also like, I, I think, Alan, I think, I think we need a whole pile of. I think this is something that we need in the future is some some workshops on some of this stuff niche community building anybody who actually wants to build a campaign afterwards to all. I'm happy to put up some, well, I'm happy regardless to put up some some lessons showing you how to do this because I've already built all these lessons for my DC it students. So niche community building. There's all sorts of different little niche spaces out there and probably some of you are already using them where they're like Facebook communities their subreddits, their forums that particular communities have built out there. There might be groups over on LinkedIn and things like that where you've got like a really hardcore community that's interested in a particular topic. And so those communities if you're building on something like you're building OER say on aerodynamics. I've played around in some of the playing communities before for a TV series that you're helping to promote. If you go in there and you start nerdily talking about and sharing some of your content and also nerdily engaging with some of their content. You can get like some huge advocates behind your OER is in those little little sub communities and it takes time. And those people in those communities, as long as you're taking an interest in them as well, they can go out there and they can be the champion of the OER is in the content that you're creating out there. The tough part of that part is it's going beyond your current community as opposed to I think right now we keep talking to other OER creators and we're not going into those little end user groups that could really use the content to get excited about it. And the possibilities other people want to add to this challenges. Well, I wanted to say something was that. Okay, so one option is to provide training on on on some of these skills. I'd like to point out that Pamela had her hand open up earlier saying that she also knew about these SEOs. One third of the people here have have well one third and right now when you know one third one quarter have have have these skills. But one thing that was in my research and this relates a little bit to what Robert was saying and really it's a little bit to what you're saying about niche communities. In my research, it was about ecosystems of different roles in higher education that were involved in in open education. So my alternative to what you're suggesting as training is working with people in different roles because one thing that was found to be helpful in in a in an ecosystem for example a university is that people from different roles work together. So you don't just have the lone wolf, developing a course developing an OER you would have a librarian you would have an instructional designer helping a professor and people with knowledge of different things. So that that's one view is to rather than learn the skills in case you're not capable. The the alternative is to go and look for people in your community or in these niche communities as you're talking about to find the people to do that work. So I was back to to to the teamwork that Robert said earlier, which I think is absolutely important and I mean obviously what probably a need is a God sent to her team. Some, we do have an issue here though, a lot of the universities don't have these people, and the colleges don't have these people they might have marketing departments but they don't really know how to do this. Yeah, I would pipe up and say that I like this idea of these niche groups though, to then just ask for help a lot of people are willing to give you know free help. Right so it occurred to me like the thought popped into my head is that for a while I was a member of the Council of Scientific Annoters. And there's a group of people who could help with all sorts of, you know, parts of getting the OER publications done, and it would be a two fold learning process because I can make them more aware of what we're doing in OER but then again I could find somebody who could help me would say, Hey, how would you, you know, where would you find a list of, say, you know, ideal subject tags, you know that you know that would be most widely used for an educational setting as opposed to say maybe I triply engineering, you know, internet standards. Yeah, so even so this week. I, for my talk on accessibility yesterday, I wanted to know we never ended up having the time to share it but I'm going to share it later in the on on the connect platform. But we had, I wanted somebody who, aside from Laurie and I who had a disability that could share you know her experiences with online education and stuff like that. And it was through those niche communities that I got several offers to talk right away. And so I knew my friend Kat was really engaged in those niche communities so I sent Kat an email and I said hey do you mind and if she's trusted in those communities she was able to, I think by the end of the day I couldn't interview everybody only had the time to do one person but you know I had four offers and they all want to be involved in the podcast sort of later on that we produced from it so and she was able to do that really quickly and because she's been a part of that community they trusted her and because she trusts me, you know, it. Yeah so they work. Anybody else. I mean, I niche community that bothers me a little bit and not the idea but like yes to be active in these spaces to just going in there saying like here's my stuff. And it's more getting into the area of professional personal learning networks where you have these multiple places and not saying like everybody has to go and spend all their time in these. But there is sort of a piece about finding groups to be active in and also somewhat stepping out of those and that's that's a hard. There's a concept that came across a long time ago called structured serendipity. And it was a, I'll find the reference later but he was an economist, but he made deliberate approaches, he said he would spend two hours a week reading something out of his economic discipline so he would read biology papers or something out of his normal flow of information to pick up ideas. He also did things like once a week he would go to a different location to work in a different spot. And it's somewhat of just it creates a little bit of potential serendipity to either read something you normally wouldn't to enter a discussion where you normally wouldn't. And so, I mean some of these communities are the ones that are our academic and our discipline specific ones that aren't very active and we are so I mean that's that's an obvious way. But there's just like, it sounds like these communities to me they sound like these little separate islands and I think there are a lot of overlapping communities and I mean this conference is one and so you'll interact with people, you don't normally do. And then you'll run, you might bump into them in some other context and so having as much of that. Even small scale interaction does build over time and so I'd be more interested in doing things where people, I mean, personal learning networks or professional networks are kind of old now but they're still really vital. Being so flooded with so many pieces of information. I think that, Alan, I like, I like that idea that, you know, go outside of your typical communities. Anybody want to add anything else to this before we go on to the next question. Okay, the next question put up by Erica is who do you think your end users are. It depends. Both teachers and students. Self learners professionals in the field. That's maybe also one of the problems you don't know who your end users are. You can, that's also one of the hesitations I come across for teachers to share the materials to say I don't know where it will end, will end up and maybe it will end up in the context, but I don't want to end it up. They, they are very feeling very comfortable by sharing their resources to people they know, and they share those informally and they think market well as native dark reuse, but because you don't know who your end users are you only have some, some imagination might makes it hard. You're totally hitting on the nail on the head there with so many people it's, it's coming from storytelling fields, you know, to start to really, you know, dissect and figure out who different audiences are for different things so. Say for example eight years ago. Saskatchewan show crop crop dusting show I can't remember what it's oh that's definitely was called. One of the things like you know that we did when we were figuring out how do we reach the audience for this show was literally make a list of every different sort of overlapping community and group that might be interested in this series. And then it's, you know, it's literally going out and finding those groups to engage them. Part of the problem I think, and goes back to Danielle's and Robert's point on teamwork is, you know, that can be a daunting, daunting task of trying to reach all those different communities to. Okay, so we had students and features. Any comments on the end users. Again, one of the findings in my research was, you just, you just don't know and then that's the, that seems to be the nature of openly licensed materials is that you put it out there. You don't know where it ends up. Some people know who created it, but the creator this this came up in a point yesterday that but the creator doesn't know who ends up using it. So to that end, what it was a bit challenging is that you're whenever you're designing these things you're designing for some kind of audience whether it's an imagined one or a real one. And you don't know who you're going to reach you don't know if the people you've designed it for will use it, and you don't know if there's a different population that will take it up and use it maybe adapt it. So I think part of it is having to accept the mystery of who will use these things. Perhaps this is something that goes that needs to be going into the metadata as explaining who this is intended for. I mean, it's, it's, there's a lot of guesswork involved because the open world is so is so vast anyone who's got access to the internet can come and use these things. Yeah, but I don't. People can make an already introduced words serendipity. And I think that also comes for we are so can end in context is which you never have had couldn't imagine. You, you, you are you've created to know you are made for geography, and then maybe it has something in it, but makes it very attractive for teachers economy, and they use it. You haven't seen that when you create it and have that in the mind because the creativity of people in using materials is so large, you can't, you can't imagine that. I think I added a point here in the chat saying for digital platforms press books and I believe liberal text Google analytics can help answer this question in broad brushstrokes. For example, based on the location the type of format the number of visits so that I guess there's some form of tracking of some resources. And I think you should also remember that that the, the most type of reuse, which is done is using the idea, you get inspired by looking at the other from other people, but you don't reuse this or but you reuse the idea and your own, your own teaching or your own learning materials. And Anita seems to agree with that point. Yeah, I mean I personally find that unexpected to be exciting. And I think, you know, when we discover that there's an opportunity there right. Okay, this group's really enjoyed this I have this other thing that I would love to develop an OER on and maybe knowing that this is how it's been used in this way. I, you can learn from from that, as long as as you say you've got that data to track stuff and to have that understanding of where it's going. Other thoughts before we go into the next. Data and analytics are fine but nothing ever supersedes when someone out of the blue contacts you. And that you never expected. I will take that over data any day. Yeah, I'm Alan I'm fully fully fully with you I'm more of the, I mean it's good to know this stuff, but, but it's those anecdotal moments that sort of lift my heart. I mean, when we launched our nature series, and we had this, the knowledge keeper for the, the couch and First Nations, sort of talking about, you know, how we're all connected to the land and we're all indigenous to somewhere and we've just, you know, a lot of us have lost and lost connection. And there was a gentleman in Britain who sort of commented back on on how it had made him cry because it had made him remember. And like that's those are the stories that that stick with you right. Yeah, well, and this is one of my hobby horses but like, you know, often when people talk about public domain it's like, Oh you don't have to give attribution. I hate that. It's the minimum level of legal compliance. And so I share a lot of my photos on Flickr and someone wrote me a long time ago and said, Hey, I'm going to reuse your picture. And I wrote back and I did this whole explanation, oh you know it's license creative Commons that means you can use it. And, and you don't have to like as permission, and they wrote back and said, Yeah I know all about that I just thought you'd like to know. That really changed everything. And so I switched all my photos to be public domain as an experiment. And I get all the time, especially from musicians who want to reuse photographs for their cover art or their, their albums. And they just want to express appreciation and these are like small time independent musicians who are not making a lot of money. And the fact that they will reach out to acknowledge to me an act of gratitude and graciousness is so much more important and fulfilling as for someone who creates stuff. I wanted to pitch in as well and I really I agree with you Alan, just because it's public domain and says use it for free. One of the things I've tried to push for is kind of, you know, as our role as educators one of the things that I think is important to kind of help students understand is that this appreciation is really it's basically giving credit, you're not paid for your work, but you know get giving someone credit, I think it's kind of a bigger picture role modeling we need to do is like make sure that you give credit and so I push for making sure that even if something's labeled CCO or public domain that we still credit it, because it's kind of this whole idea of modeling, how you show appreciation respect and share knowledge properly is like there should always be you should always know who you know people deserve credit musicians artists they all deserve credit for having produced, you know for their creation. So, yeah. Absolutely. I actually what I'm teaching that stuff. I, I very clearly outlined, you know, in the in my notes you know where the like you know the Rupert where the marks are going and everybody who forgets to give credit then. That's the last time throughout the class they forget to give credit because because they end up getting dinged badly and they're in the grade and then, but then, because there were building stuff, and they're going to need to give credit throughout the rest of the class hopefully it then sort of, you know, starts to become automatic for them. That's kind of my goal. I'm not really a marked different person but my goal with it is so that they. It becomes ingrained in them. Okay, Lois is supporting this point that citing the sources is important. And this is something that Lois teaches in information literacy literacy courses. And I would add that I agree that in North America, I think we have a culture that finds it important to cite your sources whereas it seems that different in different locations. That's not valued and in fact simply copying someone's materials is seen as the better way to do things with copying and not necessarily citing the person. Yeah, I would say it's kind of one of those things that we kind of the basic tenant like can use other people's ideas you just want to make sure that you're not saying that you're using somebody's idea as your own. You're not going to come up with this idea but giving credit to who came with it and it's just a general respect thing, not that it's not that you can't use that idea or maybe come up with something different from that idea. But that yes you need to make sure that you're acknowledging where that idea started from. And that to that is knowing how to to cite or attribute. And apparently with open education with openly licensed materials you attribute and with copyrighted with copyright all rights reserved you cite the work. There's that distinction and then there's the procedure for the attribution the procedure for the citation and all the things you have to do. You know it's one thing to be aware of what to do, then it's another thing to know how to do it properly. And Anita seems to like that point. Excellent. So, what, in terms of those, I think most like, what are, what do you find as your challenges and building future. We already covered this and some of our other slides. Anybody want to add. I don't know what you mean by future yards. So, I guess, the question was more to do with. There's obviously a time investment when we're creating, and in order to build databases of OER content. We need. And so, what are, what are sort of the challenges that that get people, you know, and getting people to begin that process and, and I guess, building content, you know, over time and I think we might have covered this one in our original slide to be honest. So unless anybody has anything new they want to add I'm going to jump to the next. I would just add, I would just add kind of support from your peers, and also from, say, your, your, I'll call the boss, dean or whoever, or chair, I'm not sure who. So, that would be one thing. And then that also goes back to the understanding what it is that you're doing because, yeah. It gets back to the emotional part of it as well. Yeah, you know, intrinsic rewards. And Anita supports that point. And what I would say in my job is sometimes it's the nature of my job sometimes limits me I'm not I don't teach directly to two students. I work with professors. But sometimes my job doesn't call for developing OER I can do it in my free time, but the job itself doesn't always allow for it. And I think Ross has got his hand up. Okay, I didn't mean to. In this case though. I was going to say that. Yeah, the offside of the desk actually that's the typical sort of scenario of creating and if that time was was allocated then the nuts. We go pretty, pretty far in terms of getting some creation done. Yeah. Yeah. And time investment grant. They actually do have those at some institutions. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I like the idea. And there are a lot of comments here in the chat about having no free time and I do agree with that I think especially now in the pandemic. Perhaps pretty much everyone is stressed out and I think what free time we do have we probably need it to relax. And I go so far to say in order to create our best work. We need this we need balance in our lives and that that's been one of the real positives that I've learned through through, well, basically living in constant pain from my car accidents is I it's forced me to live a more balanced life, which is not a bad thing. And you can actually sometimes be more productive when you're taking that time. So this is the part that I think is really key here is we're all talking amongst ourselves about this stuff right now. But how do we reach those people that are already creating that that content that they're basically treating in an open way but they don't know the licensing and things like that. How do we reach them to do, you know, to create sort of open licensing and on their content. I think in my experience it's about building relationships with with these people. And, you know, you may not have the relationship, but maybe your colleague does, and it's kind of a one on one approach. And I know that it would take it takes a longer time, but that's one of the things I'm learning about open education. It's a long game. And so, but that investment in that relationship buildings actually really important. That's how folks get to know about it in some ways. You also do the other kind of large scale type of strategies but sometimes building relationships seems to be more than the most effective but what do you guys think to think the one and one is kind of an important aspect of getting know these folks. I, I don't personally like I don't that's not my role, and we have people do that but definitely it was about building relationships and finding the right connection Ross so I would, I would definitely agree with you it might be one on one. It might be a group, like a group presentation we've done that as well. But I think typically what happens is it requires a one on one so that the person is making the contact the fact of member who's kind of inquiring gets a good understanding and we avoid those misunderstandings that kind of play go we are. Like I said I am not personally involved but I've watched my, my team members and supervisors enough that that's a big part of this is, you don't pick the right project, you don't, or you pick the right people before you pick the project. Right, because they've got to be, we're going to be willing right to trust, you know they're trusting you take them on this voyage. So I would, I would echo your, your sentiment. I like stories too by the way and I know that's your expertise. Actually, so I'd like to hear how you would think is how stories can be involved in reaching people about who we are. Yeah, well I, I mean I ultimately think that as educators, we are storytellers, and I think a lot of storytellers are educators even if, even if they don't think of themselves that way. And so I think there is like a huge market out there of different storytellers that are doing things that have different educational initiatives. From documentary filmmakers to children storytellers to that if they knew that there was a way that they could utilize what they're already creating to reach different audiences to have a different purpose to potentially help support some of the sort of the ideas that they're trying to get across whether it's like you know whether they've got ideas that they're creating in their stories that are around inclusivity or or diversity or a love for our planet or all those different like you know things a lot of storytellers sort of work into their stories through sort of open educational materials around that. There's an opportunity there for them to share and to spread that content in a different way. But we have to reach them and unfortunately with the storytellers is a little bit of a higher barrier there, just because so many of them have worked in these fields where you know they're indoctrined into the whole copyright notion and that they think that if they let something be open they're going to lose their opportunities where their funding sources might be whether it's with a publisher, or whether it's with a broadcast network or or or something along those lines. I'm kind of working on a sustainable funding project at the moment, and part of that is and part of how we're going out there and experimenting and sharing some of our content at the moment. It's it's with that whole purpose of you know, one of the side purposes to the whole thing is demonstrating that there is a different way to do things than our traditional methods of funding in in in those market places and in that different way can be more open and things like that with them. I when I'm approaching that from from our stories I not all of our content is open, for example, when I'm doing our documentary filmmaking or the podcasting series that we're looking at right now with working with people with disabilities. I specifically don't put an open unless the person wants it to be open and they're and they understand what that means. I don't put an open license on that content just because as a documentary filmmaker. I, I need to be protective of my subjects and the reality with video is when you remix it, or you remix audio, what they've shared with me could be taken out of context. And so earlier I mentioned sort of the wonderful messages that when Tom was sharing with me when we are over on Salt Spring and one of our documentaries and had I, especially in the political climate that we're just coming out of right now, had I made that content so it could have been remixable when Tom's words which were beautiful could totally be taken in a very in a way that could have been abused by certain groups and and taken totally out of context and a documentary filmmaker there too, who's been very fortunate in the fact that First Nations community, trust me, and they want to create with me. And they allow me to share their stories. So and do them that get taken in a way that would be destructive by by somebody else who's using remixing in a not so wonderful manner. I'd pretty much be killing my, I'd be killing my future abilities to work with groups like that, as we're heading into this project now around around accessibility, that was one of the big key things that there's a difference in cat asking and communicating what I was looking for in those communities the other day is because they trust her and cat trust me she's worked with me for years so she could tell them that no, Eric is trustworthy. And she also gets where you're coming from because she's had her own, you know, disability and accessibility issues along the way. So, but then what I do with my storytelling and this is I think where you know you, you can show with these different audiences. We make that free so we make all those videos for free so even though I'm not allowing remixing on them. Teachers or educators or parks or different community groups, they can take those videos and take them and send them wherever they wish to send them and use them in whatever way they wish to use them. And where our truly open content is around it is building additional like, you know, classroom lessons and ways that you can take those, the content we've shared in those videos, further and, and, you know, build, you know, curriculum around them and things like that. So that curriculum those lessons, all of that is open. I think with each storyteller it just it depends on where you're coming from it depends there's this great platform that I started using this summer with my animated storytelling camp which is called elementary. And it's designed it's working with art different artists and it's designed for kids to create these wonderful animated stories. And the platform automatically credits the the different animators that become a part of these stories and if somebody then takes my story. They can then remix my story and add different elements to it and it credits me back as as being the kind of the original writer of whatever it is that they've adopted so Laurie who works with me created this wonderful sort of yoga travel story for kids on there. And so people have been picking it up and remixing it into different languages which is being lovely to see. So, but that is a tough community to crack, just because because of where they've come from it's kind of like how it's the musician community initially when it came to remixing stuff. Okay. Sorry, just want to add from Lois and Anita agrees with this point. Lois says, it's such an important point that there's a time and place for making something open, but that we can support OERs and also understand that there are important reasons to protect the nation as well. Some populations are sensitive. If you have a discussion or training session with a vulnerable population, such as maybe you're simply talking about sexism. If people are to be open and truly address issues, they need a secure environment so so that would not be something that you know if there was a recording of that, and made and that was made available, I think there would be less participation and less learning and the openness would defeat the purpose of the lesson. It's the indigenous communities sometimes that prefer not to have their materials exposed in particular ways. In some cases, maybe they don't want them recorded in a written form in some ways they simply don't want outside communities to know about them. Sometimes it's just simply respecting that some people don't want any contribution or any form of identification out into the public. Yeah, and I actually think that's a conversation. There's a lot of people in the open, there is that sort of more extreme sector of the open pop open ed population that it doesn't understand why you wouldn't have things open. When I was talking actually on the project and you know that that whole thing about some things, having some things open and some things free and the reasons for it. So in regards at lunch, I went to sit down at a table with somebody who I recognized and I guess she didn't recognize me initially, and she was actually bad by my choices that way and I kind of think that that I'm okay with it because I just just, you know, I re explained myself and I said this is this is why this is why I've made the choices here to have this aspect so that it's not open and and as a documentary filmmaker, that's important for me because there is a trust with other subjects and I need to respect that trust. But I think that that's something that we have to be very careful with as a community, if we want to engage other people around building open and and sharing their content in this way and inviting them into this community is we also have to respect that there's going to be some things that they might not be comfortable with in and rather than there being kind of that this way or the highway, we need to figure out how to build. So, so we show understanding and respect for other people's viewpoints and reasoning. Well, Anita contributed in the chat she says just because we can share an individual's information. Well, how should we do it. And my answer to that would be first you have to discuss things with the students in for my view of open education is that it in the part of the openness involves choice. And it involves allowing the students the option to choose to be involved and this involves and Anita is agreeing with this. It's about discussing things is about offering the choice to students negotiating these things from the start and then moving forward. But then that that requires the people involved to especially the instructor if that's the person who ultimately can make the final decision that that the expectation is that the instructor has that open philosophy in them and not everyone is that far into openness. And I think when we're talking like the student teacher sort of role here to we have to remember that as educators were in a power position with our students, whether, whether we feel that way or not it. You know, especially if you're in a graded course, your, you can be more intimidating than you realize in your in your students mind. negotiate so I guess just being aware of power but dynamic. I just want to point out there's about 20 minutes left in the workshop. Okay. If we're about 20 minutes left. And I think maybe what we do is rather than continuing with the questions here. Because I think we've touched on a lot of these and some of the other things. Let's have a look at brainstorming what we can actually create here to start building some awareness. I think I'll actually I'm going to go back to the last slide ahead. Just because I think it's a good thing before building a campaign to just think of what's important to you and maybe this is like you might be like what what's important to you in a campaign to build awareness. Like what would you wish to be as a part of it. I think some creativity, actually, something a little bit outside the box for creating awareness. And it seems like this is Anita again it seems like we've kind of touched on some of these like for example the, the cross pollination like going outside your that's a creative way going outside of your normal like you know, stomping you know just thinking of OER as education, not just open but education in general you know reaching your students, the the idea of respecting people's private information and teaching students respect again all these things would apply outside so I think maybe creating an awareness that we are is about education first, and maybe open access is a benefit or open, you know and pedagogy is a benefit but it's really about education first. You know, I keep hearing all these suggestions and I could see them applying to any, any course or any teaching curricula. Anybody else anything that they would see as important in building an awareness campaign around OER that they'd like to see included. That approach is sorry is there's a teaching strategy called what's in it for me. And really I think people are engaged they have to see what they're getting out of doing all this. I think we often hit them too hard with openness is so great and sharing is good. I think people have to find that they're personally getting something out of being part of this. There are many things that will improve this the work that they do. I was just going to say I, I, you know, again from my point of view I'd like to see to use the marketing term term to leverage more of the digital tools that we have for this digital media because the great thing about digital media is it gives you this interactivity gives the shareability but it also gives you this chance to like I said get discovery like a more global discovery. I would like to see, you know, more digital tools like being applied to creating awareness which I think we can do through several methods that we've kind of touched on. Yeah, with that to one of the things that it occurred to me to do was sort of maybe as a part of it to getting a list of different sources where people can go to what's already out there what what have we already got that we can do on top of and so that we're not completely reinventing the wheel to right. Absolutely. Yeah, let's not all do our own little thing and then once we get to the room go oh six out of 12 us are doing the same thing our own way. Yeah, I totally agree. I agree with that too and also this is this is low sorry that, you know, the practicality, like when you tell someone about something you need to give them something they can take away immediately and use. I think that's what we're kind of touching upon but that that's really important. Sometimes we like I've really enjoyed this conversation I thank you all because it is it's definitely something it's not just pie in the sky like this is stuff. Like I've heard some different things that I can immediately take away and use and I think that's really important when you're building a campaign and trying to get people on your side is give them the tools to kind of get started, not just a big idea that that they then have to figure out. I agree with you. This is Ross what about stickiness. I don't know if that's a marketing term or not but in this case, you know we try different awareness campaigns and so some of them stick and some of them don't but it'd be great if they actually be sticky for a long time. Not sure how to achieve that or not but I thought it would add to it. Well that's good. I, it's the thought had gone through my mind. I, at one point I had a slide about length and I was kind of hoping that this would be what we'd be moving towards is something that, you know isn't just kind of a quick flash in the pan but that we could hopefully build long term. And Ross definitely a marketing term stickiness has got to do with engagement so it's one thing to get a bunch of clicks but it's even more significant. If you can see how long the viewer is staying on the pages, like how long not just how many times they click but how long they've done so. In terms of OER, I think it's a matter of, do they use it for just one lesson, or do they start, you know, incorporating the OER for like regularly like every session every semester, right, do they start a war of it to me that's stickiness. Good so the more proper term is engagement that's not does sound better but sticking as its own sort of flair to it to you. Well, it's an old older term I think got to do with social media and websites. Right. Yeah. And they use engage. They also use engagement as well. Great. Thanks. Anything else in terms of the important, like things that are important that we want to have in there. Okay, more sessions. Sorry. More sessions like this. Oh, thank you. I, you guys are amazing. I was telling Alan beforehand that I had a fear that a, we wouldn't that nobody would show up. And be I had a fear that that, you know, whether whether people would want to be fully, you know, engaged or not. I am loving you guys because this is awesome. And I'm hoping that you know a lot of the resources that we've been talking about to that we can can share afterwards like I know Danielle keeps referencing her this dissertation which I don't think is published yet is it. So I'm hoping afterwards we can get that and and send that around to everybody for in case people are interested in reading it. Goals. What's our goal, or goals. I think one thing to help is to figure out what kind of audience to reach. Because part of my understanding was, was it was possibly to reach people outside of academia, given that there may be a different language to use outside of academia than in. Yeah, that's a really good point. This also might be where we have overlapping hashtags to like, you know, okay, we know this group is using this this term so. So, while we're trying to reach those different silos. We use some of the terms that they, they are using as well, but not with hijacking their term but you know, building and sharing overlapping in an overlapping way. And Ross suggests the hashtag open first. Yeah, let's see eventual goal is that when people are considering their resources for the course that they would consider open first. And, and then if there's nothing else than published perhaps. This actually happened in one of our institutions actually in the, in the interior in the West Coutines at Salkirk College. And there was actually kind of courageous person associated with the teaching and learning center that created it. And, you know, said, and had some guidelines about when choosing resources to look at the open resources first, and then if there's nothing to go on from there. So, I thought that was quite quite cool. So anybody else who has different hashtags as we go through this, just, just. When I'm working with teams, I'm building like a campaign or an idea or we're building a new show or something like that. I'm not sure if we agree about something sounding silly, or we put everything up there because the, because often, you know, it'll be something there that I either inspires the idea we have, or is the thing everybody comes back to. And even if we have something that we really really like, we might discover when we start to go out there and do the research that oh that's being used already and it's being used for something that doesn't fit with what we're trying to build. But who's our target audience. So, I know Danielle said the different silos. I think primary the teachers. So the teachers. teachers and maybe also the. Yeah, I don't know what are you called it in English. The education programs to for it to have educators. So, oh, the teacher teacher service programs, I think it's called. I don't know if you call teacher service program but students start to learn to become a teacher. I know, and the people who are teaching them. Those are also. So both the students who want to become a teacher and it teaches themselves. Maybe I should call them the future teachers. That's actually a really good group to target because then you're, you know, they already know about it when they're, when they're doing their training. Smart smart smart. I'm going to put community educators up here too. I'm going to put homeschoolers up here as well. Just simply because they might not be a group that might be building stuff although who knows with after Tim Chen's chat they they might be creating, you know, their own content that they want to share out there. But they're definitely an end user group for the OERs that people are making. So this suggests targeting administrators departments who provide funding and resources. We need to start paying people to develop OER. Yeah, I think that's one of the issues that one of the hindrances to developing OER is that developing courses whether they're open or not takes a lot of effort, especially if you don't have a lot of training. For that to be for there to be an incentive for developing the OER is important though some people would see developing as OER as overlapping with course development, which in some cases, well, in some cases it might be the same thing. But there can be incentive incentives for OER especially if there are benefits beyond OER being developed simply as courses. To add to that one thing that I think is is hindrance for some people is it depends on if your institution is focused on teaching or focused on research and as you know Danielle, if you're if you're 10 year your pay your progression, whatever your opportunities are based on research, they don't recognize OER as publishing. So, you know, that's kind of why through that out there because there needs to be that awareness of somehow including OER development as either professional development or 10 year track, you know accomplishments that's separate from actually getting published in an academic journal and doing research and even in a teaching facility again it's, you know, you don't get credit for developing OER because it's not class hours, right it's not student contact hours. So that's kind of why through that in there. I apologize. She's leaving. Thank you, Lois for participation. Yeah, thank you, Lois. And I need to as well and I certainly hope we'll see more of this discussion. Perhaps in the OEG connect. This was terrific for me. Thank you everyone so much it was so nice to meet you. Oh and thank you so much Anita and thank you for all that you you shared and taught us along the way. One point that I would add is that there's this role of teaching track, where the focus is less on research more in teaching. And sometimes in these roles professors don't receive much or any professional development, which is strange. So, I would suggest that there needs to be training for these people in development of courses and in OER and incentives to do this work and to be perhaps innovators. This is Ross and actually. Yeah, I need to just not hear anymore but there is actually some universities that are kind of forward thinking that do acknowledge creation of OER as, you know, part of their tenure track process or that sort of thing. UBC comes to mind actually, which is cool. Erica we've got about five minutes left. So, just thinking about. Okay, we've got lots there that will probably, what's the best way since we've got five minutes left. What's the best way that would be easiest for everybody to continue this conversation and if you're interested in sort of being involved in helping to create something that we can actually take actionable steps on. Where would people like to see both, you know, I'll obviously put the notes up and the things we discussed over on connect but if we then were to create a working document to try and brainstorm our next steps in this whole process. What works for people for first, do we want like a Google Doc space do we want to create our own little. I think one story to go we have the abilities to create our own little private work group on there. What, what works well for people on where their comforts are at as far as, you know, kind of continuing this whole campaign building process. And is that something that interests people. People can express interest by replying to you and connect and you're able to private message anybody and then figure out, you know, because they'll get an email of a response. That might be way just to find out, you know, because there might be people who are in the session. We might want to join in. Probably, I would shrug and say well you get to pick Erica because you're, you're sort of like, you know, rallying us on here so I think, you know, we navigate between so many different workspaces I don't think it's a big deal. Okay. And so, just because we only do have that very short time left here to anybody have any questions, or, or things that we haven't touched on that they were directions that they wish to go and continue kind of discussing following this. So I think that would help given that your strength or one of your strengths Erica is is creativity and the world of creativity in education. I think maybe it would help to show a variety, maybe what we can build if we're capable is different versions of we are that can be used educationally that it doesn't have to be just standard formats that people are highly familiar with for example open textbooks and open courses and I do. You know that I say that, even though open textbooks are extremely important to open education, especially in terms of access and cost, but that there's their possibilities beyond that. The open education is shifting a lot towards open educational practices. So I think it's important to show what possibilities are out there and that goes along with UDL and accessibility it's offering a variety of possible ways to do work to represent knowledge, and to include different people in developing content and designing lessons. So I think really pushing the creativity aspect is something that's important. Partly because it's one of your strengths. And I think it would attract more people from the creative fields. Okay. Thank you. Any thoughts, other questions, other just ideas that you want to share with people in general. Well, so I can see everybody's wonderful faces. I'm just going to stop the recording at this point. Okay.