 Welcome back, the Senate has amended the Terrorism Prevention Act 2013 by prohibiting payment of ransom to kidnappers in the country. The amendments are contained in the Terrorism Prevention Act 2013 Amendment Bill 2022 passed by the Senate on Wednesday following the consideration and adoption of the report by the Committee on Judiciary Human Rights and Legal Matters. The Committee's Chairman, Senator O'Pay, Mi'Bamidili, who laid the report before the House, said in his presentation that the bill seeks to outlaw the payment of ransom to abductors, kidnappers and terrorists for release of any person who had been wrongfully confined, imprisoned or kidnapped. A president of Senate Ahmed Lawan said the proposal would complement the federal government's efforts in the fight against insecurity when it is signed into law by President Muhammad Al-Buhari. Now joining us to discuss this is former Assistant Director of the DSS, Dennis Amakri, and we are also joined by Chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria, Kaduna State Chapter, Reverend Joseph Hayab. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. Good evening. Thank you for having us. We'll start with Reverend Hayab, who has joined us from Kaduna State. The reason is that Kaduna State has been the recipient or has suffered several terror attacks in recent times. And of course, these terror attacks have been accompanied with kidnappings and ransom has been paid. We can look at the schools and the school students who were kidnapped and parents have to pay the ransom and all that. Reverend Hayab, is this a welcome development as far as you're concerned? Well, one of the big challenges we've always had with the way policy makers or legislators come about with laws is that they used to put this second thing first instead of the first thing first. To my mind, the most important thing that should have been done is to address the situation at the moment we are facing. We have, as I speak to you, 30 days ago, 62 or over 62 Nigerians were kidnapped by those who attacked the train, Kaduna train. 17 women are still with the, when the terrorists, four kids are still with the terrorists, 42 men are still with the terrorists, all together 62. One student of the Burrito Baptist High School is still with bandits and you can name numbers of people who are still with bandits. We've really not done enough to rescue these people and bring them home and we are now coming up with a law that we want to send whoever pay ransom to bandits, 15 years in jail, then the bandits die. You've not even arrested any to show us that there is enough effort to stop banditry, to stop terrorism and you are bringing law. I don't think they understand these things at all because when your loved one is involved in this, then you will understand what is happening. I remember early this morning, a group of people came to me because a pastor, his daughter and one of his members have been kidnapped. They kidnapped us after a long negotiation, except to collect 900,000 from the family. When they collected that money, they released the pastor, they kept his daughter and one of his members. And now they requested that these people should go and buy a particular type of motorcycle as ransom before they will release the other two. They went, they went, paid money and someone went and bought the motorcycle on his way coming to Kaduna yesterday evening, afternoon, security stopped him, collected the motorcycle and they came thinking that I told them what can we do. But you see, I understand their parents. I understand what they are going through. When I was speaking to them, they said, sir, you can see our father just came back. Our daughter, our sister is still with the bandit. The other person is still with the bandit. Now they may have reported to security. Nobody had made serious effort to rescue those people with the bandit. And now you are saying that if they give bandit money, you will. Yes, of course, we would have loved it to be like that. But have we done enough to stop banditry, to stop kidnapping, to stop all these terrorism going on in our land before we put that low? Or we just want to put that low where we are doing nothing and so many souls are there suffering in the hands of this criminal. This is where I find this bill quite, quite, quite, quite not placed in the right time or in the right position. Now, though the bill still will need to go to the House of Representatives, I would definitely speak out and ask the House of Representatives not to concur with this bill because it is not yet time. All right, Mr. Makri, your thoughts on this. You've had the reverend who said it's not the right time to do this. As far as you can send for the security situation in Nigeria, is this a welcome development? Well, I agree with the reverend that this law is actually putting the card before the House because you should do things according to, according to the sequence in which things happen. Now, I have been, my position alone for years has been a case of a military ransom period. I don't believe in ransom period because when they collect the money, they use the money to go and buy more arms and then, of course, it strengthens them to even start attacking our military and security forces. So this law itself is good. I think I appreciate what they are trying to do, but I think they are doing it at the wrong time, just like the reverend said because if you don't, first of all, you have to make sure that if you are telling the society not to pay ransom, it means only one thing, don't pay ransom. If any of your people are taking hostage, the government will guarantee to bring them back. Now, the government has not guaranteed that if you don't pay ransom, your people will be brought back. So you find out that people have, in fact, we have cases in front of us. We still have Chibong girls, you know, and you are saying that, look, the families, and that was what we were talking about earlier about the Kaduga, Buja, the real explosion thing, whereby the ministry of transportation and the railway should be setting up a desk to make sure that at least the families are taking care of, well, we said taking care of them, if the public doesn't know what is going on so that they are not agitated or necessarily, secondly, taking some of these people at their bread with us, and that's how international standards, that's the benchmark in making sure that these families are taking care of taking what the hostages would release. All right, all right. So if you don't do it, what happens? The MD of the Hagrid Bank has gone ahead and they've paid his money and come out. Ordnance don't have that kind of money. So government should think at the level of the Otbaribai to make sure that when we put laws, those laws are going to be effective because if we leave it the way it is, I don't think that law is going to be effective. Dennis Amakri, you started by saying that you are ordinarily against payment of ransom to criminals, to terrorists, to bandits, to kidnaps, whatever. Why? Hello? Yes. What is the reason behind this, your original stance of being against payment of ransom to criminals? Why do I say that? Yes, why are you against it? It's very apparent. It's very apparent. How can you fuel the person that is fighting you? You are fighting with an enemy. You have AK-47, he has AK-47. You keep shooting at each other. Then when his bullets are running out, he takes a whole stage from you, then you take money and give him and then he releases a stage from you for you and then he uses the money you have given him to go and buy another bullets to be fighting you. It does not make any sense. So there is no need. Every responsible government will not do that. I know that there are situations where you negotiate with terrorists. It's not only by money. I know where Israel has negotiated with Egypt to get the body of a dead soldier by releasing about hundreds of the Egyptians that were arrested or were caught during the war. So there are many ways of negotiating, but terrorists will always want to deal with you in terms of money because they lead the money and if you push money to them, you know, it becomes a bazaar where they can do whatever they like. All right. Reverend Hyab, you've listened to Deniz Amarki tell us basically that he's likened the parents of ransom to fueling your enemy. And are you still, have you been able to have a change of mind listening to him talk on your opposition? I actually didn't say that I'm in support of paying ransom. I quite agree that paying ransom is actually even suicidal. The fact is that the terrorists and bandit terrorizing us have become strong because of the money that they've gotten. When they kidnapped the Baptist high school students, they got over 250 million from the school and the parents. And when they also attacked the train, they got 100 million from just one victim. Now they believe that they will get more and more and more hundreds of millions and that's why they are crazy. They are talk speaking to Nigeria as if they own this country. As if we don't even have a government. They flanked the pictures of these people to provoke the families and because they realize that we're so paying ransom is not right. But what we're just saying is that before you met a law and said that whoever pay ransom should go for 15 years in jail, what measures have you put in place that will even make it difficult for the bandit too? And if they touch anybody, you will go after them to show the people that you are there. Why people are paying ransom is simply because they realize that if their loved one is there, they can report several times. I have had experience. I'm not speaking the stories people are saying. When we go to the SSS, when we go to the police, when we go to the military, they will even tell us that keep negotiating with them and buy time. And if you continue to follow that advice, you will negotiate with them for the next 10 months, for the next 20 months, you are buying time because there is never a time that you keep negotiating and they tell you, oh, thank God that today we've arrested the man that you are negotiating with. So we keep negotiating and we have to pay before our loved one will come back and no arrest. So that's why people are paying for ransom. So we want to stop ransom. But what do we do first before we stop paying for ransom? Gentlemen, gentlemen, you seem to be on the same page here. But the Senate itself has cannot go fight the terrorists or the bandits. The Senate itself cannot go rescue these victims from the forests. They cannot, they're not equipped to do that. You've seen in times past Reverend that the members of the National Assembly, Senate and House of Reps have invited service chiefs to come and answer questions. So the oversight is there. I mean, probably this is the least they can do. This is much they can do to prevent money flowing into the hands of the enemy on the apartheid's legislative body. You see, the Senate are representative of the people. And when the Senate are making law, they make the law for the people. And the issue we are talking about is depends the people are going through. Whatever may be the conversation between the Senate and the chief security officers, the Senate must understand that they are talking about the people for years now. Money has been given to these security men. What have they exactly done to stop this evil? You know, sometimes in this country when you talked about security, those who are by privilege of office, or in particular office in security, we just think that you know nothing since you are not part of it. I believe security is about people. Security is about everybody. Security is not just an exclusive job of some individuals. So they need us, we need them. The role they play, we also have a role to play. If we don't do that, I speak because, okay, just the same, this morning again I hosted a large contingent of the police community relations committee. And we had this kind of conversation. How do we work together to help our security agents? But when the National Assembly are making laws and they fail to understand what is hitting on us, they fail to understand the pains we are going through. And there is no evidence out there to show that, look, if we come up with this law, then now all is well. That's why we are saying before you make law, think about the people and also call for the impute of the people. I am not sure that the National Assembly or the Senate particularly have really called for the impute of the people. But because, as I've said, this bill is not over. The federal representative needs to also come up and discuss this. So that means we just have an opportunity to correct where it is wrong so that the final copy of this bill will not just be this 15-year sentence if you pay money, but also if those in power fail to deliver our own, who has been kidnapped? What do we do to them? Dennis and Markry, sometimes, you're from the intelligence community, the defense sector, we won't call it that. Sometimes it may take, and I'm saying this as a layman who has no training in that aspect, apart from what I read, what I hear, what I watch, sometimes it may take, would I be right to say sometimes it may take a while for a rescue operation to be successfully carried out? And is there an element of impatience on the part of the families or the victims, or a bit of fear? You know, fear because the kidnappers, the bandit terrorists, call it what you may, are calling the families on the phone to say we are gonna shoot your brother, your sister, your father if you don't send the money now. And that panic makes them to, even before the authorities can get the acts together to plan a safe rescue, they go pay this money. Is that something that can play out? Yeah, very, very correct. Your assumption is correct. And I have been very much involved with cases like this, many of them. And that's why I was saying that there is need when hostages are taken, that the responsible authority, in this case we are talking of Nigerian Railway Corporation. Nigerian Railway Corporation should go ahead and set up in conjunction with the state government if possible, a desk where they will be briefing the hostage families, the family of the hostages, and the general public on a daily basis, on a daily basis, because we need to know. And that will lessen the anxiety of the families. That way, at least they are aware, they are aware, they are getting information. And then of course they will go ahead and take care of them in case they have problems. Now, there is another area that we have forgotten. And that is about hostage negotiation. It's a total specialty or its own. And I'm very, very sure if we have the police people, they should be able to tell us if they have. In fact, I was surprised to hear from Reverend, Reverend, I have that the security agencies were telling them that you go ahead and negotiate. You don't allow the families to negotiate. You don't allow, that is not done. And you don't allow the hostage himself to negotiate. Negotiate is released because emotions are involved. That's why you will have a specialist, either in the SSS or in the police, who is a negotiator? Who will be out there to negotiate with them? And they will negotiate to level where they will agree on something. Like I said earlier, it doesn't have to be money because the negotiation has to be, you know, concerning other things. If it is money, usually, like other countries will do, they don't deal directly with money, with any hostage. They can decide to use a third party. All right, Jen, we have to go, and these are some of the dynamics, you know, that may you are saying, you know, families should never negotiate with the terrorists. And I think you're all saying that, yes, and if you are against the payment of ransom, but some things need to be put in place, indeed, we have a list of all the amounts that have been paid, or most of them, it runs into hundreds of millions of Naira, if not billions of Naira, including some that have been paid by government, allegedly, as reported by the World Street Journal. But we'll have some other time for this conversation. I want to thank you for your time. Dennis Makri, former assistant director of the DSS, and of course, Reverend Joseph Hayab of the Christian Association of Nigeria in Kalina State. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Thank you too for having us, thank you. And that's a sizable package, some breaking news coming in tonight. The federal lawmaker and governorship aspirant in River State, Farah Dagogo, has been arrested by the police. He was arrested at the PDP governorship screening venue in Pothacket while he was there to be screened. He was earlier declared wanted by Governor Yosem Wike for allegedly disrupting the screening exercise which he earlier denied. Of course, Farah has been very, very vocal against what he says is the high-handedness of Governor Wike of River State. So look at this, I'm sure, subsequently on this program. Thanks for joining us. My name is Kofi Patels. See you tomorrow.