 get another episode of Ephraim Next Gen Series, where we are celebrating the win of the winners of the second list of Ephraim PR and COPCOM 40 and 40 list. So today we have with us Ms. Kerban Rajdeo, who is the lead communications at Adleria Foundation for this video interaction. Hi, Kerban, how are you? Hi, Nafisa, I'm good. How are you? I'm good too. So how are, you know, these work from home time treating you? I think it's been good in a lot of ways. I think you're able to spend a lot of time with your family and you're able to, you know, be safe firstly on priorities. So it's been good. Although there are challenges, you know, you do miss the whole team engagement. You miss meeting your colleagues. You miss, you know, those conversations to side maybe what they miss all of those things. So, yeah, but otherwise it's been a good experience. And congratulations on being a part of, you know, the latest of here in COPCOM 40 and 40, the second list. So my first question would obviously be, and how do you feel being a part of the list? It's definitely a great honour. It's definitely a great privilege to have been selected. And particularly if you see the cohort this time, it has some really, really diverse and really, really experienced peers. So I'm very excited and very happy to be part of the list. I think at the end of the year, you know, because it has been such a challenge in your fall of us, something like this, it really lifts your spirits and it really encourages you to, you know, keep going even though you might feel, you know, what am I really making any impact? But I think these kind of lists, they really motivate you to do a lot more and to really, you know, be able to contribute a lot more than you already are. So, yeah, I'm really, very happy to be part of this cohort this year. Absolutely. And, you know, let's continue this winning streak for you and for all of us. And, you know, my next question would be around, you know, everything has changed during the past couple of months. And also for the PR and Gopcom sector where, you know, we had to go through tremendous amount of changes. So what, according to you, are the key skills required in the prevailing market for the PR professionals? I think given that, you know, things are changing so rapidly, I think the way that, you know, product services and all are being, are being communicated out in the market and we even consumers are responding to it is changing quite rapidly. So I think one of the main skills that, you know, any professional within the communications industry should have now. And I think it's also irrespective of whether there is any pandemic. I think that would be agility. I think you have to be agile. You have to be flexible. You have to be willing to understand that, you know, you're living in an ever-dynamic, ever-changing environment. You know, also it's changing from many perspectives from the supply side in terms of the kinds of products, the kinds of services, the kinds of companies, organizations that are there today and also from the supply side in terms of, you know, the demand side in terms of, you know, the kind of consumers and their changing behaviors in activity. So one has to be flexible. One has to be agile. One has to understand that, you know, one kind of pattern will not work for any, you know, for any kind of communication. You just have to keep evolving it. You just have to keep changing and making sure that you are staying ahead of it in some way. And being open to say to you, okay, you know, this is not working. Maybe this approach is not working. Retract and regroup. So I think that kind of flexibility to also acknowledge that something is not working. Maybe we need to look at it a little differently. So I think that's one of the broader, very, very important skills that I feel that really communicators need to have today. I think there was a network glitch. Okay. So according to you being flexible, agile, and, you know, ready to adapt, would be key skills required and obviously evolve with the changing scenarios. Absolutely. Okay. So moving on to my next question, like, you know, the 40 and a 40 list, you know, celebrate leaders, upcoming leaders who have been doing exceedingly well in the industry. You are a leader. You have been a leader for a long time now. So what according to you, are the qualities that a good leader should have in them? Well, I find this question very subjective because I think that the leaders are also people and people are very different endeavors. And people have different ways of, you know, working, ways of dealing with each other. So I mean, I've learned a lot from so many leaders, all of who have been very, very different. But I think at the end of the day, there's one thing that I feel every leader should have is, you know, sometimes, and from my personal experience, you get so caught up with your Excel lists and your team and your deliverables and your tasks and, you know, all of these things that you forget that your team is also human. You forget that humanizing anger, you know, that really comes into when you're working with the team. So I think what really helped me and what I've seen from my mentors and leaders is really taking one step back as a leader and approaching, you know, your team as, you know, just as someone who also has a life outside of work. You know, that simple question, how are you doing? How are things, you know, they really go a very long way rather than, you know, just being very guarded and always talking very professionally. So I think just one step back as a leader, just having that kind of empathy, having that kind of, you know, conversation which really shows that person beyond everything that we're trying to do, you know, there's also this personal relationship that we have that matters. I feel that is a very good quality. I've seen in a lot of mentors, I've learned from a lot of my mentors. I think apart from that, as I said, you know, leaders are all different. Many have different ways, styles of, you know, managing people, of styles of getting work done. And I think as long as you're respectful, you're professional, you know, you understand that, you know, as I said, do you understand that there's a human working with you? Do you humanize that relationship? I think it's a recipe for a great leader. Absolutely, I think everyone out there would agree to your point. So, you know, a lot of, as I have mentioned earlier, you know, industry has gone through a lot of changes and quite a lot of trends have come up now. We have seen many new trends that have, you know, evolved or were maybe present before and now have been amplified. So what, according to you, are the trends that have reshaped the communications industry in these couple of months and more so in the last one decade, if I would talk about it? So I think, you know, it's no doubt that the importance of social media, of course, if you look at the last decade and also if you look at the last 10 months, it's really gotten very, very important. I think across the board, if you look at, you know, organizations of different capacities, they're all embracing it. And I think it was definitely something everyone did, but I think everyone looked at it as, you know, an add-on to your existing communications, your events, but now I think it's become a very key focal point for you to tell your story as a brand, as an organization, as a company. And that is probably one of the shifts that I've seen. And, you know, I come from, like, a developmental communications background and when you work with foundations, when you work with NGOs, you know, you are very, very engaged with the work you're doing because you're really working towards a primary stakeholder who's really benefiting from your programs on the ground. So you look at these things as very secondary, but I think now, you know, because there is no other route to really tell your story with as much conviction as you would have wanted, you know, you're not doing as many meetings, you're not doing as many, you know, you're not physically meeting your funders, you're not physically meeting your customers. That emphasis from social media just being, like, you know, something that all organizations do to really being the focal point of your communications. To me, that seems like something that's really become important and something that organizations are taking very, very seriously. I also feel it's a very nice change in the way that we do events. And I think, you know, as a communications person, when you are working with events, there are a lot of areas to think about, you know, logistics and content and speakers and things like that. But I think now, because of the virtual environment, we're so able to focus on the kind of content we are talking about, you know, we're so able to have structured conversations because we're not so worried about, you know, those logistics and hotel and, you know, that stuff that distracts you from the main purpose. So I really like that. I hope that this really picks up. I really feel like webinars, you know, even if you look at, you know, webinars or even if you look at any other online format of having conversations, it hits, you know, podcasts, for example, or the radio cast, they're really, really reshaping the way that we're consuming a lot of information. And I find that very, very exciting. And I think it's good, you know, you're coming back to what's really important. You're coming back to the conversation which is really, really important. The content which is really important. So I like that. I like that shift. I think that's a good trend, a good shift that's happening. Okay, so you mentioned about the virtual meetings and events happening, fully virtual now. So what according to you, you know, it's the PR industry and if we cover the overall cons industry, you're ready to go fully virtual in the time to come. Are we technologically that strong to move all other skills of the PR professionals, you know, are there so much to go fully virtual in the couple of years? Yeah, I think so, I absolutely think so. I think even as the communicators before the whole pandemic, you know, everyone, you know, all the all the communicators that were making noise, that were talking, we're all talking about how things have to be digital. Even before, you know, the pandemic happened. So I think communicators have always been aware that this whole medium has a very large reach and we have to use it to our optimum capacity. So I think that definitely everyone accesses, but one of the things I feel we may struggle with as people in the industries, you know, we haven't yet probably, you know, know how, like you probably know the impact of technology, but you know, when you're working in the team, when you're organizing, when you want to, you know, as a PR or someone in a PR professional, when you want to engage with the client, those conversations I think might be getting a bit tricky to do online because you're so used to, you know, going to meeting a client, that physical, you know, aspect of, you know, speaking to someone, understanding their feedback, all of that has kind of also become a jewel apart from, you know, your communications. I think that part may be, for me personally, that is something that, you know, I feel we're probably adjusting to, like as communicators, how do we plan our communications with our teams and with our renders and with our partners and, you know, all that whole piece is something I feel we're still getting used to. But I think we've always, I mean, anyone, even if you see, you know, some panels in the past on the trends of communication and technology, online, social media, all of that has always been discussed and put forward very strongly. So I think that part is good, but maybe this is where, you know, we may have to adjust a little bit more knowing how to work ourselves virtually rather than, you know, that physical space, particularly in an agency, you know, which is where it's such a vibrant culture where, you know, you really, you know, bounce off ideas of each other, you know, copywriters, et cetera. I think that's the part which might be a little tough, but yeah, I just hope that answers the question. Yes, absolutely. And what about you, you know, what would be the key technological trends or terms that have come up very strongly during these, you know, during these times? And what are the basic tools that are being used now? So I think in terms of, you know, technology, I think one of the things that what I am saying is, you know, how do we really evaluate our reach? So if you look at public relations for a long time, you know, we used to assess it as per the, you know, as per the columns that we are getting in terms of the paper coverage and we would, you know, acknowledge that from the people and then we would come to like a number of, this is, you know, how much our reach has paid. When it's online and particularly when it's social media, you can, you know, you know, who's there and who's, you know, visiting your page and things like that and what has been your reach and the conversion of it, like how much of this is having a real impact on your business or impact on your brand or impact on your organization? That is one piece which I feel we are kind of struggling with. And I think that is something which we need to, you know, develop. How are we really bringing out our data on what we're doing as communicators and how are we able to, you know, quantify our kind of, you know, work that we're doing for the brand or for the organization? That quantifiable impact probably is the one data point which I think we'll have to reassess and rethink about, you know, as the digital phase kind of goes on. So that's one of the key things that, you know, that I've been thinking about it. You know, when you say that you've got this coverage or you're doing this webinar or you're doing this social media, what is it finally, can you quantify that in terms of impact for your brand and how do you do that? So, I mean, I'm sure if others have, you know, tools and data tools, it would be great to use that. But I think that's a very important question that we now need to ask ourselves, given things are changing so rapidly. So yeah. So being strong with data and insights has to be the way forward for the times to come. Okay. So if moving on, if I ask you about, you know, your clients or maybe the people you had to be, what has been, you know, the sentiment change that has occurred before COVID times and during these times? So, I work for the foundation. So I haven't had to have that conversation with clients but I think from a developmental communication point of view, what has really changed, what we're hearing constantly is, you know, how can we tell our stories more efficiently? How can we be better storytellers? How can we be more empathetic to what we're saying so that it reaches a wider audience? Because we're not saying it's all gonna be very digital, it's all through videos, it's all through AVs, it's all through, you know, how can we really make that storytelling experience more impactful? And that's really the piece which even, you know, we are hearing, because as I do give, we work with a lot of organizations, we work with a lot of NGOs, we're our partners and that's what we keep hearing from them and doing such amazing work where we're really, you know, working with such impactful projects but how do we, you know, really translate that into or communicate that in a way which really tells this beautiful story of the work that we've done. And that's one of the key conversations that now we're having because there's so much content out there, I think one of the other perks, I could say, pluses of this has been that there's just so much content to be absorbed, you know, even digitally, because everyone has really kind of taken to it, putting out videos, putting out contents, webinars, podcasts, you know, it's just been so rapid. So, then how do you then stand out within that, you know, how are then you creating your brand or your image within all of this? So that's also a key important conversation that I think now we'll have to start having in that way, you know, we're really trying to figure out, you know, how to make sense of the chaos that's on actually, so, yeah. Everything now is all the content and everything is revolving around communications, right? Everything, all the marketing interventions, advertising and everything has, you know, summed up on the kind of communication that is being done. So communication has taken the center stage now. Okay, so moving on to my next question. What, according to you, would be the key innovations that would reshape the industry in the times to come? Maybe you can talk about the three innovations, according to you, that will shape up the industry. So, as I mentioned earlier, I think, how are we assessing our impact through data? I think if there's a more concrete way to show that impact, I think communications as an industry will be a lot more, you know, strategic, not just marketing numbers, but numbers in terms of, if has it led to any behavior change, has it led to any emotional change or economic change, et cetera. I think those data points are going to be very critical for us if we work towards it. I think second, not an innovation, but an extension of, you know, of already existing technological advancements. How can we, you know, really, really put out very, very strategic content out there? How do we really, you know, is webinar the only way or is podcast the only way? No, it has to be some other ways that they are done, that they can be put out there. You know, earlier it was all about videos and now it's all become about webinars and podcasts. Is there any other? I'm sure that there will be some or the other more engaging way of, you know, making it not just a one-way kind of conversation that you're viewing, but a more participatory place where you can actually participate in the engagement and participate with the brand and with the organizations. I think that would be number two for me. And number three, as I've always said, is how do we innovate in our storytelling? I think that's for me as a communicator from the beginning. You know, this is one of the key things we always told that you all are storytellers, you know, the importance of storytelling within this industry is absolutely critical. So how do we really innovate that? How do we, how are we able to tell, you know, really hard-hitting stories, but in a very sharp and a very impactful way? Again, you know, these are the three places where I feel we could have some innovation that would really be very, very defining for the sector. So. Okay, so you have actually summed up very crisply and neatly all the important aspects that might reshape the industry. So, you know, I am done with all the serious questions. And so I would like to ask, how has been, you know, a work from home shift for you? Because everyone has had their share of experience. Do you just share with us some of your experiences? I think it's, I think it's going to be same as everyone. I think initially we were all very happy, you know, we're all going to work from home and, you know, we can manage our housework and, you know, there's no rush to get to office. And particularly when you're in Bombay, you're like, oh, thank God, you know, I don't have to take a rickshaw today. I don't have to worry about going to office today. So initially, you know, it was all very relaxed. And I think I liked to be able to, you know, work from home and manage. But I think as, you know, we also thought that this would probably be, you know, one month, two months, like, was maximum that we thought. We didn't really expect it to go on for like eight, nine, 10 months, you know, in the next year. I think that's when things started to change, when you really start to, you know, miss your colleagues, you miss the environment of working in an office, the professionalism of working at your desk, your space, you know, you miss those things. And you don't realize that until it's kind of taken away from you that those eight hours or eight, nine hours dedicated to your profession, how important it is. So, and I think, I think also what happens is that because you're at home, you know, your work life and your home life, you kind of mix. So you have to have a very rigid, you know, strict kind of policy with yourself that these are the hours that I will be working and these are the hours that I will be, you know, at home. And I think otherwise what happened with me was, you know, it got too intertwined and it got really, you know, very hard to manage. But I think once you segregate that, it gets easier. And what I'm sure these are challenges that, you know, everyone is faced, but at the end of the day, we are all very grateful that, you know, we have a home that we can, we have a shelter, we have food, you know, we're not, we're not, you know, in those kind of situations, fortunately. So I think once you realize that, you're like, bring it on, like whatever. I'm blessed and I'm truly happy. So then you kind of make your way around it. I think that has been my work for home journey. So now I'm happy with how it is. Yeah, and I think everybody has, you know, got used to this environment and they have started enjoying. So Kirwan, I would like to ask you, like the platforms like E4M, 40 and the 40, we are in Cocom, 40 and the 40, what kind of, you know, value will this recognition add to your profile and to the communications industry at large? Well, I think it has tremendous value. I think what such platforms enable is for people to really strive for excellence. I think when you put something like this out there for the communications industry, particularly, you're really able to get people to, you know, put their best foot forward in the sense, you know, all the applications, I'm sure they were so thought of. They were so, you know, vast and so many different questions. And it really even got me thinking, you know, when I was writing the application, we even got me thinking that, okay, I don't know, I've not thought about this or I'm not, you know, done. So I think it really makes you strive for that kind of an excellence that really in the communications industry is required. I think that in the future, I think already and in the future, it's going to be something very aspirational. I hope that, you know, communicators across really look at this list as, you know, how do I get on this list the next time, the next cohort in the next year? And I think that's really where this list, I think it's already there, but I think it's gonna be even bigger now given that, you know, it's been received so well. For me personally, it was my goal for this year. It was my goal. I've just finished a decade in the industry. So it was my goal that I have to, you know, get on board a cohort like this. I have to be recognized amongst peers. So when I recognize it, it has definitely given me an elevated kind of, you know, experience. I've really felt extremely motivated, more passionate towards what I'm doing. And it's also reaffirmed that what I'm doing has been good and, you know, I'm on the right path. And now it's just a process of learning and growing and evolving more. So thank you so much to the entirety for them, Jury and everybody who put this together. It was, I think it's going to be a really incredible aspirational list for all communicators in the future. Right, so we are really pleased, you know, to recognize leaders or people who are doing exceedingly well in the industry. So Kirvan, my last question has to be around what are your future goals? Future goals, I think I've always planned my years in terms of three years at the time. I don't look too ahead, I don't look in the past. So I think my future goals is definitely to continue to be in the developing sector space, to continue to work with foundations, with organizations, with NGOs closely. It's truly something I believe has a lot of potential, you know, even in the communications industry, which particularly in India, it's not been very wide known and we don't have a lot of foundations that are very out there and speak to me now. Of course, we haven't given any others, but I think it's definitely something that's going to be very important. I think given the COVID context also, the work that our frontline agents from NGOs, from self-help groups, from foundations, from funders, this whole work of this whole cohort really has elevated and given us a very rare opportunity and a very good opportunity to also look at how the communications around that can be driven because a lot of foundations and NGOs, as I mentioned earlier, we get so caught up in the work we're doing for our primary stakeholders. We forget that we are very able to tell such amazing stories. So I think that focus on this sector is something that I want to keep doing and keep evolving, keep trying to make better, keep making foundations and NGOs into their own brands, their own organizations, that's really where I see my future path. And we wish you all the very best in achieving your goals. So, Kirwan, we would like to end this insightful interaction on with your message to your juniors. To my colleagues and to everybody who I work with. Sure. So just thank you to everybody who tolerates me on a day-to-day basis. I think that you are only as good as your team, you're only as good as the people you work with, as the people you interact with. And it's because I work with such an excellent group of people and I have worked in the past in all my other jobs and also I will give the team that I work with, it's just been phenomenal. So I think as a team, learning from each other and growing with each other and these are all very important aspects. So I thank each and every one of my team members for believing in me, investing in me, learning with me, growing with me. And I've also learned and grown from them. So thank you everybody. And I think as communications begins to evolve, I'm sure that we will all also begin to evolve ourselves and be more empathetic and more flexible and more agile as the years go on. So that's my message. Awesome. Thank you so much, Kirwan, for your time and for such beautiful insights. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you.