 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you're hailing from welcome back to another KBE insider show I am Chris short host of the most of this thing we call redhead live streaming I'm joined by a special guest host today Steve spiker as well as our special guest machek shuluk but you know and machek is a Great contributor to the community. I've lost the page with all his descriptions all of a sudden the tabs, which are Rooney Hang on that he we're gonna talk to machek today about you know being a software engineer at redhead obviously But also about what it's like being a double SIG lead and his work on the Kubernetes CLI and controllers But first the news Mina take it away. Welcome back by the way. Thank you. Hi. Good morning everyone Gonna talk about some highlights here as I do on on all episodes except I guess Gordon did a really really good job last last month, so I do have a heart to uphold But security has been But a big issue I think with Kubernetes in the last couple of months and one of the Couple of the articles that I want to highlight There's a new tool that wants to save open source from Supply chain attacks SIG store will make a code signing frigate easy for software developers providing an important first line of defense this is I think a really really good first step in in in You know Defending those attacks and then there's a NSAC is a Kubernetes hardening guidance, which also Identifies the common areas of Kubernetes security risks as supply chain malicious actors and insider threats It aims to educate engineers to avoid common Misconfiguration issues and safeguard applications the guidance suggests that supply chain risks are hard to mitigate and can emerge in the container building cycle Or infrastructure provisioning especially in cloud environments And then we have Helga labors coming in talking about how to secure Kubernetes as it becomes Mainstream this is an actually an interview with the CEO of ARMA who talks about security and Kubernetes systems What makes them susceptible to cyber attacks and what should organizations expect when deploying them? He answers, you know attackers are looking for targets And how do they choose their targets by a combination of key parameters the value of the target and how easy it is to attack it? So after talking about this stuff Obviously, we need to have a way of knowing if our Kubernetes network security strategy is solid And then I think there are four critical questions that must be asked to understand Where these vulnerabilities persist and where steps need to be taken to ensure adequate protection within your container network? So before you decide anything ask these five questions to yourself does your network inspection achieve complete visibility? What isn't protected by your security deployment or service mesh? What are the limitations of your existing web application firewall protection? Are you addressing security drift and how fast can your Kubernetes security mitigate threats? Again very very important theme in the world of Kubernetes now I will drop in the links for for the for these specific opinion pieces and news articles that I've addressed right now and then going in What are the main drivers and challenges of container technology today? Obviously security being one of the main challenges They're related to the application container technology They limit its its adoption There's a lack of internal alignment and experience in Kubernetes management That are also named among the key barriers to adoption Main drivers are increasing number of enterprises Are opting in for the powerful deployment options invisibility over complex deployments Efficient distribution of workload across clusters resources and accelerated software delivery powered by kubernetes But despite the challenges the idea of a simplified and automated service delivery continues to drive The deployment of kubernetes across across the world Then we want to highlight the five DevSecOps DevSecOps open source projects Again, you can go in and look at this article to learn more about these projects But teams that embrace the DevSecOps approach make security an integral part of the entire application life cycle And these specific open source projects aim to help that Claire six-door cubelenter open policy agent and gatekeeper and falco So I will again drop all of these links into the chat Feel free to go and check those out come back to kubernetes KBE news page every week. We have great articles coming up today as well And giving it back to you chris and steve Thank you. Meena. Awesome. And yes, security has been a huge issue lately um Machek Machek who is your daddy and what do you do? That will depend on the context and everything around it, but I we I think we can figure it out eventually over the course of the rest of the meeting So your software engineer here at red hat Collead of two sigs sounds like you're like me. You wear mini hats at red hat and Yeah, that's true an interesting challenge um It is uh Let's start that I was a six cli lead for Almost four years now and I said was because last week I officially stepped down from the six cli chair role in six cli we have a division of What a chair does and what a tech lead does so theoretically all of us are wearing both hats But over time when we want to appreciate someone else or I will be slowly stepping down, but I want to help with the technical side of things I'm giving away the organizational hat and we'll take care of the technical stuff, especially that I have a lot of knowledge that Most importantly historical knowledge And decision that we that we did over the past years and I know that the other chairs and tech leads We're asking me to be around to help them because That historical knowledge is sometimes helpful for resolving conflicts and situations Which are basically on a daily basis so That's that Yeah, the context why we did this this way or the other way in the past Have we tried to look into this or something else? And yes, we usually have but the decision from the past was that because there are those Other stuff that might interact We have to make this hard decision of doing this or or differently So this definitely saves a lot of time when When I can look it up in my head somehow I don't know how I Managed to to to keep a hold of this many information, but somehow I do But I think it has so many people Yeah Yeah, there's a how many people are usually interacting with and that's six y'all. I kind of like uh six y'all varies But I think it'll be somewhere between 10 and 20 people that are constantly on our well currently We have this many meetings that we are meeting every Week because there's the official six y'all I meeting is every other week and that's That's in the other weeks. We are doing box crops and just recently Katrina started doing Customized box crops. So No matter what's Wednesday, there's usually a six y'all I meeting whether they'll be box crop Or customized crop or a regular meeting It's all in the calendar So, uh, you should be good Good one. On top of that you also do work in SIG apps too. So as part of your community participation Right. So I was part of the SIG apps basically since The initial days when I started working on cube uh, because my My initials to my original story with Kubernetes started with jobs. Uh, well at the time it was called Actually scheduler jobs. So that that was the idea of adding Uh, something like crons in Linux if you're familiar with Linux systems You know that there is an ability to schedule some tasks at any given point in time Initially, that was called scheduler jobs over time It was renamed to cron jobs And that was the original idea During the initial discussions we divided that into jobs and cron jobs So this is how we uh, how my story I think that was around 2016 Yeah, that's what I'd say that 2017 very early on. Yeah. Yeah, that was very early on in Barely a couple months after I joined red hat if I remember correctly But since then I was jumping the train in couple Places and if you look at my contributions and I I don't know what I was doing, but I was looking for something and I was looking for What I did what I touched. I touched very different Places in the cube ecosystem And even though I'm on a daily basis Uh, the team that I'm leading at red hat Is overlooking both 6c li sig apps and also six scheduling, but thankfully I have amazing folks working with me that are Uh Handling the six scheduling. I don't have to do it because uh, my mind would blow what I would have to look at the third sick but even still, uh, I'm also participating in sig api machinery and trying to Uh, to look into what they are, uh, cooking both from sig apps perspective because Controllers are interacting with api one way or the other A lot of primitives that makes the api machinery is working on Is being used heavily in both sig apps and 6c li So it's somehow natural to me to also follow along with those folks interesting So hello out there everybody in the audience Just wanted to make sure we get a hello then I was just gonna jump in you mentioned like you're starting the kubernetes and it sound like part of it was your Your role in in red hat. I don't know if you can talk a little bit more about how that kind of started Hmm. Well that was an interesting, uh turn of events Uh, I was basically And invited to a conference that was happening in southern poland pretty close by where I was living in a very small city Nearby and a friend of mine asked me. Oh, there's an open source days happening in bios kobyawa Uh, that was like seven years ago In march if I remember correctly and I was like, oh, yeah I I promised to go with you on a conference a couple of uh months before and but I couldn't make it Oh, yeah, I'll join Also, that was a time when um, I was a couple months after switching my previous previous job to the current one at the time and I was like very Disappointed by the pick that I did like literally after a week of working there. I was like, yeah, that's not the place that I want to be in um Well happens and um I went to the open source days and I've met uh, my wonderful friends and co-workers until today uh, jirka uh folta whose currently in charge of hr and check republic And michael foitig and michael is uh stuff engineer in open shift until this day And he was my team lead for a very very long time And I consider him and my friend. So and we started chatting and it was like Oh, it would be so cool to be able to work with you Uh, there was one little at the time Is that open shift back then I was seven years ago Was at the version two that was written in ruby And I'm being Pythonista and I was like, yeah, that's not my game um So I applied for two positions actually one was for open stack and other one was for open shift And because of being and having my heart with python I cared more about the open stack role more than the uh, the open shift It turns out that uh, I didn't get the open stack Because I was missing some proper virtual machine knowledge But I got the uh, open shift role soon after Open shift started working on v3 And we switched from ruby to go and I was like, oh, yeah, that's fine because I worked with java before I work with c So switching from uh, from ruby over to go Was pretty uh, was pretty exciting for me actually And that's how I landed over at red hat. Uh, I did touch the ruby codes for quite a while I think I was one of the last person that was Still, uh, maintaining v2. I think folks that were joining red hat, uh, after me Did not maintain the v2 already because they were already Jumping into v3 and go base solution. So I was exciting chips that you uh That have happened out worked out for you. I mean worked out for the team overall Um, so that's great to hear. Um, the one thing it I think it was an interesting story I hearing folks like you work upstream so much in the community Is it there's a lot of pieces there that are kind of hard to pull together But at the same time you're managing delivering I want to call downstream But you know a thing that's taking those bits from the upstream and then downstream China practice I'm dealing with behest releases. So you're working with many versions of cube or cube c cubes cuddle cube ctl whatever you want to call it right and And have to deal with those challenges. So I'd be kind of interested to hear your story there What that's like dealing with not only the community parts But now you're kind of in a some ways going back and porting forward like all the different challenges or or ways of working day to day Okay, so before I jump into that one, uh, let me straight up one thing about the cube cuddle cube ctl, whichever Um, I'm going to use both interchangeably Love it. Uh, although although a couple years back Uh, if you are familiar cube cuddle ahead of has a logo And we struggle with it and talking with phil and shon at the time Who we're leading sick to you like? Well are still on to today We figure out that maybe something like cuddle fish for cube cuddle which is cuddling the cube logo Uh, so if you haven't uh, check the logo if you go to kubernetes cube cuddle on github You'll see the our logo proudly presented on the front page Uh, but both names even though we went with the cuddle Both names are perfectly Okay, and I've seen lots of questions Debites And it's actually something that we we are being asked almost Every single time when we're talking about six cli during cube cons For the past three four years, I would say And now going back to your original question I must admit that the fact that cube decided to switch from four to three releases a year Was a significant improvement from my point of view because If you're thinking about just cube You're thinking about past four releases currently three releases But for me as you said that means Double the digit So it was eight releases a year or six releases currently because for me Uh, my life cycle looks like this I'm done with let's say Kubernetes 122 which was released Uh, a couple weeks back And I'm jumping immediately into Into open shift four point Where we were for point nine Which will be which is based on on Kubernetes 122 and that will be released in a short while And then immediately I need to jump on the track and start working on 123 already And we will be slowly preparing for another version of open shift. So we're constantly between Uh, feature freeze I'm literally chasing every single date, whether that's cube feature freeze Or open shift feature freeze, whether that's cube, uh, code freeze or open shift Code freeze and jumping, uh with those dates is challenging at times Um, and it sometimes is overwhelming But thankfully I have an amazing team both upstream in 6cli as well in a sig apps That does a lot of the work Uh, and can help me with pretty much delivering any And any single feature whether that's downstream or upstream So backing up a little bit further, you know, when did you get your starting like open source? Like how did you discover open source software in general? Yeah, so with open source the story goes back to python Uh, and all the way back to the my to my university years Like 20 years ago or something along those lines um I took a class on python and I was like, yeah, well Ma, I'm not sure if that's something for me A couple months went by And I had an internship and during the internship I got to work with python heavily And that's where where uh where I filed them off with python And over the years I figure out Well, uh the community Here with specifically the python, uh community was delivering was providing with this amazing tool Uh for free So I figure out that I want to give back something And my initial contributions, uh were to python itself. Uh, I think I did a couple prs Uh to python itself specifically imap and smtp libraries Over time also helped with box python orc, which is the buck tracker for python And that's uh, I think that that was the initial Story where I started with open source. I was doing As much as I could in my free time And I'm trying still to be active in the python, although Live work and everything else Uh is not always in line with uh with my willingness to work on python stuff That's interesting. You said that you get to play much with python these days or it's I mean, I wouldn't say that uh, I don't have a time I Every single time I'm working on something simple that I want to scrape data or somehow analyze the data I'm going to reach out for python every single time that I'm doing something like that Uh over the past years whenever I was preparing some kind of a demo for open shift Um Or presenting some ideas. I was always uh preparing a an application and that application always Reused python under the covers just because I wanted to give it a try In the past in the earlier days when we started shipping v3 I was also involved in uh source to image, which is the the build technology for uh for open shift And I was the primary owner for uh for the python builder I kick off that one so So I've always tried to use whatever I built and make sure that uh the experience that I'm Feeling is actually legit and whether I should improve something and make it better Or whether it the ux simply to say is Is reasonable for uh for a regular user so Source to image I think fondly called s2i. I'm dropping link to that in chat if you're not familiar with it folks Yeah, the the one thing I don't know if you want to maybe jump back into kind of the what's happening in the cli space So around kubernetes and six cli. I don't know if you want to Spend a little time about you know, I'll talk about the plugin model like exploration around crew and then kind of integration with Customize and any plugin ecosystem kind of throwing a broad statement That there are sort of like cli topics So kind of curious right, so six cli itself we have Actually three main sub projects That we are overlooking You didn't mention customize And I I also mentioned earlier Today that we are doing box crops and one box crop is actually tomorrow Uh, it's around 6 p.m. Central European time and it's around noon eastern time 9 a.m. Pacific Uh, we will be going through customize box. We have a very talented group of people who is working on customize and pushing this forward listening to what the customers and users Want to have at it? There are cases where we are trying to simplify a lot of stuff for customize because It was a problem for some time where customize moved forward And before that we decided that we want to ship kubectl with customize embedded And the fact that customize went so far in with features and Capabilities we were left in kubectl with a pretty old customize Uh, and the dependencies Unfortunately made the problem even harder for us to upgrade. So we had to Refactor a little bit of customize to To be able to update the version And jeff did an amazing job here and worked tirelessly to bring The necessary changes into customize and then update the customize in in kubectl So that's on that end of the next project crew And the entire plugin model So that was basically in line with what the majority of kubectl was doing so kubectl decided that the core would be pretty much closed And we would open up a lot of places. However, you can inject or add Additional capabilities kubectl wasn't different Um, we look at other tools namely git and other Binary's how they implement their own plugin models And we came up with the current plugin implementation that your plugin It has to just it just have to have a prefix of kubectl Uh, and that will make it a plugin to kubectl out of that Ahmed and friends figure out that it would be nice to have something to manage the plugins for for kubectl That's how the crew started its thing and it's pretty popular And we're very happy to have crew on board and lastly, which is a pretty new addition To this 6cli sub project is koi. It's a project initially started by ibm and Uh driven by nick especially, which is a Gui approach to Kind of like a wrapper to kubectl it has a much richer Uh capabilities of presenting the output of the kubectl commands Um, so it's like a combination. It's not like a web console But it's definitely a much richer kubectl wrapper than if you would use normal kubectl It has a live preview of let's say if you start watching pods And it allows a little bit more freedom around sorting and formatting the The output of the kubectl commands So there are pretty interesting stuff and lastly because You did mention the plugins during the Uh, the work that we did on plugins We extracted a library called cli runtimes and that exists on github other Kubernetes Where we are providing Outdoors of the plugins with a lot of the primitives for printing data for Reading configuration, etc. So that you don't uh, first of all you can be um Your output your way of doing stuff is similar to what kubectl does by default But it also deals a lot of for a lot of the stuff for you So you don't have to write anything from scratch when you want to I don't know parts kubectl for example Do you have a is there a place listing? Uh, kind of common or popular plugins that exist? Um I mean i'm on the pru website right now. There's 154 plugins. I'm not sure I think there was or There's not like a support function But Okay, you can you have your own number of stars. I'll drop it in the chat I guess do you have any favorite or one you use often or when you want to plug? um My favorite I would probably call out to debug uh, which was which originally started as a plugin But we're currently in a process of uh pulling debug into the as a default command in kubectl It's it's rather lengthy process. Uh, if you're a plugin, it's obviously in you can have a little bit faster iteration of your releases if you're in a Um In a core the process is you just you basically have to follow What kubectl does but on on the other hand? What is something that we're we've been working for I would probably say three years maybe even four years Is we're trying to simplify the kubectl code so that we can um Move the entire kubectl code to a separate repository even though that If you will start if you check out github Uh, you'll notice that kubernetes slash kubectl exist as a separate repository It's actually not a repository where the entire development is happening on a daily basis Uh, kubernetes has a notion of staging repose So if you look under main kubernetes kubernetes repository, there is a staging directory and if you drill down you'll notice that there is a kubectl directory That means we are publishing the contents of that Directory into a separate repo the goal for that was that We can And we ensure that the libraries that are used within the staging repo are not Using any of the dependencies from the main kubernetes kubernetes repo and that eventually we will be Uh, we'll be publishing from entirely new repo. We're currently Discussing how to uh, how to do it because it's a lot of Challenges are still ahead of us for how to release because if you look at how kube currently releases It is basically publishing all of the artifacts from a single repo I was talking with Sig release. I think that was last week or two weeks ago About us wanting to publish kubectl code Or basically kubectl artifacts from a separate repo It will take a little bit of time still But we're hoping that within a couple next releases to three maybe We will be able to uh to publish from a separate repo As soon as we reached that point where we have a separate repo um, we will return to the discussion of Maybe shipping kubectl faster Then kube then kube itself is because that was one of the goal if we move to separate repo We will try eventually cut the court For releasing. Obviously there are some challenges um Coming from that because currently we are required to support plus minus one version Which is the default policy for all of kube If we start for example Publishing kubectl every month That means we need to make sure that the support Matrix is not plus minus one, but we will be supporting about Four or five releases back and forth So there's a lot of Maybe none of the code changes required, but there's a lot of Discussion that needs to happen around processes mostly How to proceed with this approach So there's a lot of work around that But we're very hopeful with with regards to that Sounds very interesting. Um that you kind of curious In a lot of work that's going on in there So I appreciate it from you and all the your team and the community members that are doing it I'm just kind of curious as I think about Like if I was a plugin if I wanted to develop a plugin like either You know, how would I look at what's available? And I think we talked about that and talk about what do I do to get started you talked about this This stk that's available. I didn't know any other tools or recommendations you might have For them, especially in light of this Making sure it works across multiple versions of whatever's interacting with on the cube and back and Right. So we also thought about that one. Um, and there are a couple resources available Uh, first of all a shameless plug with who on We did a presentation during one of the past cube cons about how uh, what it takes to write a plugin if you Search with my name and six you lie. I'm pretty sure that you should be able to find it I think that might have been either Seattle Or um that time um Additionally within the main Kubernetes Again staging repo. We are publishing A uh a repo that has a sample cli plugin And if I remember correctly, the repo is literally called sample cli plugin Uh, similarly to how There is one for sample controller And I think maybe even uh, simple API server there is one. So if you go to github slash Kubernetes sample cli plugin, it's a very minimal plugin That allows you to switch namespaces Permanently But most importantly it shows how to write a plugin And how to reuse the libraries that we are shipping The cli runtimes. I mentioned before How to build on top of Kubernetes API Kubernetes client go to achieve the necessary Stuff to build your simple plugin Put your up in a wing to that right now and chat for you Makes sense. Um, thanks um I guess um, I was just thinking through some of the other pieces of of the cli you mentioned um Uh, customize or anything you see kind of coming down the road as other cli integrations people are then Or kind of core features that people are trying to work their way in as far as uh, or a sub project Hmm, that's an interesting question Uh, honestly, I haven't seen anything New in that territory although at the same time with This many duties that I'm dealing with and prs and approvals and whatnot Both upstream and downstream. I'm not very closely following um The area of either cli or controllers And as always takes me well, sometimes it takes me by surprise Uh, but if people are showing up, uh, either for sig apps or six you like with something new Uh, then yes, uh, I will be aware but nothing like that Uh, showed up sounds like the pretty full pretty full plate there. So yeah, the plugin model really allows for uh Allows for anything to happen at this point too. So that's yes, that's true Sounds like that's the right thing to allow there. So curious a bit more You talked a little bit about your involvement in sig apps early days as far as jobs and I know kind of recently Become the co-lead of of sig apps. So I don't know if we'd talk a little bit about what's What's going on the kind of the key things and sig apps these days Right so Yeah, a lot of the So equally as with sig 60 li where there's a lot of moving pieces Uh going on there's a lot happening in the sig apps area as well um Most importantly, we're trying to align some of the controllers By adding the capabilities that were Previously available in other controllers For example, the ability to say oh during a rollout. I want to have this many pots unavailable Which is something that we had since always in deployments Over daemon sets. We're currently adding similar capability to stateful sets so that Before stateful sets were always going one by one pod Now you will be able to pass a little bit Greater Unavailability rates. So for example, you you will be able to move faster with your With your upgrade There are other Issues that we're overlooking From sig apps point of view as well the biggest one that we're that we're looking at in the very Long term Is we're trying to unify the statuses of all the controllers If you've ever looked at the controllers You need to know how to read properly deployment status Separately stateful set status separately job or cron job or any other controller There is literally close to zero Common interface between those The reason for that is because each of those controllers were written by a completely different person So everyone had a different opinion how the status should look like The biggest downside of that is if you're building tools on top of the controllers You have to write a logic That will know oh, I'm dealing with a deployment. This is how I should interpret the status If I'm dealing with a stateful set Well the logic has to be Different So we're trying to figure out a way how to combine the current statuses in all the controllers and make them Somehow unified so that you will be able to just write one uh One implementation and that will have the necessary information whether Your workload is just starting or it's progressing whether it it is done or it's like running And that will depend there are various different cases Because If you think about it Most of the workloads controller so stateful set deployments Damon sets Their end state is that they are running But if you look at for example the batch workloads where you just run a task And the task has an end Their state will be a completed So we need to figure out those common statuses somehow And present them in a unified way to users. So we're slowly working on Um on enhancement for Kubernetes where we will try to combine those statuses And then eventually slowly over time. We will be implementing I'm positive that during the implementation phase even though We're already spent a couple of weeks or even months Looking at the statuses And trying to figure out with something reasonable I'm positive that as soon as we start implementing those Uh additional edge cases will pop up And we will have to modify the initial uh Requirements that we put Ourselves That sounds like a pretty uh pretty decent task and I've run into this multiple times We're trying to build experiences around extensions and trying to get the the status of what's going on And it's Bit challenging to write that kind of common tool to to roll that up One thing is kind of curious like we're what is sig apps is you can say apps You can put anything under apps in a sense. So how do you define the scope Of what really goes into sig apps or how is it defined as far as the everything that's is it I know you mentioned workloads kind of aspects of of kubernetes But I don't know if you talk a little bit about what all what all happens there When's the decision of keep punting it to other sigs Well, that's that's a very good question. So I'll probably refer to the sig apps charter So basically every special interest group within kubernetes Has a its own charter as As as it sends it basically lists Who is the chair? What are the sub projects and what basically we do and what are our responsibilities? So if you look at the sig apps charter, uh, we are Saying that everything From controllers all the way up to that is running on top of the platform is considered as part part of the sig apps so There are multiple topics that went through sig apps controllers are obviously the most Primary one I would call it that way So whenever you want to discuss any changes Whether to api or functionality to one of the core controllers The sig apps will be the place although Some of the controllers are primarily owned by a different sig So for example endpoints or services those will be owned by the Uh by the networking sig Sig apps will be mostly controller so All the stateful sets uh daemon sets replica sets replication controllers all of that And then everything on top of that is running There's there was a lot of work around and we still have a sub project called an application Which is actually in a grouping primitive for a set of workloads together Just recently we had a very interesting presentation About operator for higher level Uh like over operator That is overlooking the penises between deployments That was Last monday if I remember correctly the recording is up And that was pretty interesting and I remember that the person that was explaining the The project they mentioned that they are working on Open sourcing the solution currently So there's a hope that there will be more uh stuff like that available If you look in the past um a helm was For a very long time one of the primary topics During sig apps calls And probably a couple other topics And um it was sometimes hard Or overwhelming but I think at this point in time Um the majority of the sig apps calls are devoted to the controllers If there are no topics we started doing box crops and pr crops and go through issues because there's uh, there's quite a big backlog Of the issues that we have against the controllers and we're slowly going through Through those and we're trying to make sure that the people People's voices get heard Yeah, that was got involved in uh sig apps a long time ago And we jokingly refer to it early days as sig helmet. Um because of what's dominated as helmet is a topic One of the things I was going to say is like if you look at the um the GitHub page talk about uh sig apps It's one of the things I think is great about it is the non-goals kind of part of what it describes it doesn't Endors one particular ecosystem tool does not pick which apps run on top of kubernetes Does not recommend one way to do things or I think so. I think that's really helps clarify what the group is there to do so, uh, even to the point of um the app definition I know there's the the label recommendations that that the sig apps actually Um overseas as well so Overall kind of kudos to a complicated topic I think the that sig has worked pretty well to handle over the years as far as scope of applications Yeah exactly so You know, we only have Wapping 15 minutes left and obviously we don't have to take the whole hour if we don't fill it, but What do you think are some of? unique challenges of kubernetes today and You know people starting out the things the sharp edges. They might catch themselves on potentially, right? Like if they're getting going with kubernetes Hmm That's that's that's a very interesting question uh For me personally I think the biggest issue is the volume of the changes And something that I'm personally struggling is how to keep up with all of the changes All of the requests for reviews um I know that There there are multiple issues and pull requests with my name on it And whenever I'm talking with people during kube cons or during uh, sig meetings I'm always asking them to reach out to me on slack Because my github notifications and my email are way off charts Yeah, and um I'm always promising myself to keep up with those and It happens a couple every I don't know every couple of months. I'm gonna okay. I'm gonna clean my inbox uh I'm gonna go to all the way to zero And and then only two three days later or I don't know something happens Uh that there will be other topics that I need to deal with Uh for two three days, I'm gonna neglect those Those emails and they will pile up very quickly and then It just goes by For the next couple of weeks and then I have to go back to the initial. Oh, I need to go through I don't know a couple hundred emails and figure out which I care about and which don't Um, so that's unfortunately Uh a big problem for me personally That's why I'm always always asking if you care about your pr Please reach out to me directly on slack. I don't mind if you haven't heard from me Because you ping me once or twice and if you haven't heard from me Ping me again in a week. I will respond Uh, I've had a number of uh, many people are pinging me Uh, literally every week for Extended period of time like really extended period of time And eventually I got it through every time I apologize for uh for neglecting that But I always try to If I don't respond within a week, feel free to ping me. I don't mind honestly, I don't mind because There's life. There's so many things going on in parallel That I it just might slip my attention or Plenty forget about stuff So I don't mind being pinged again and again About prs or reviews That that's how it that's how it works. Yeah, if you don't I couldn't imagine Yeah Could imagine your inbox and the backlog. Yeah, there it is I I used to use someone travel dead time to like kind of catch up on those things and don't have that anymore so But also don't have travel dead time. So anyways, um The the thing that I was thinking of sort of much is like kind of that involvement of the community and how you adjust Because I think back like I remember in uh In the 2019 in san diego at kubecon and we're you know, we're I think three of us are probably the same height Like we're pretty tall and we're like talking, you know People walking by and just hanging out there between the exhibit hall Let's just such a great way to connect with people and with kubecon coming up in north america again I was kind of curious how you have you adjusted to engaging with the kube community and the more of a virtual presence or so Since day one, I'm every mode at red hat But as we were talking with chris I do enjoy Meeting people in person In the early days, I have a pretty big red house office in check republic Which is two two and a half hour drive from where I live. I was visiting the office every single month Uh, just for a day, but that was nice And even though I'm an introvert and I prefer sitting at home, you know close by With just my monitors in front of me I at the same time enjoy From time to time to actually go out and talk to people So even though we are stuck at homes for the past almost two years. I do miss, uh, kubecon I'll be missing it even more in Two weeks if I remember correctly at the beginning of october. I can't Join folks in in la, but I would love to be Around because it is just nicer to talk with people. I think Most of the communication most of discussion can happen. It's that that's not a problem Either through a slack or zoom that works But the bonding part, you know having a Beverage of your choice with the person and just chatting about silly stuff. I don't know. Disney world trip Yeah, uh visiting parents about kids about Uh life in general Poor transportation in Detroit exactly. I mean literally anything and most often that's not even work or project related That would make a huge difference and even though kubecon Did a pretty well job with, uh virtualizing those events It's not the same. I do miss the interaction where I can see Stand in front of the people and talk with them ask the questions. We literally did Instead of doing any kind of presentation for 60 light back in san diego two years ago What we did with phil and shan we stood there and we answered questions about 60 light everything For uh for 90 minutes. You can't do something like that with the current Pre-recorded sessions for kubecons. It is not that easy and even though There are slacks. Uh, there are some virtual chats. It just doesn't work that way Uh, the ability that I can come to person ask the question poke them And or have most importantly the hallway conversation That's invaluable. So I I do miss that part and even though I I usually attended kubecon both in In north america and then in europe that was enough for me for a year I did those two conference then dafcon as well In bruno and I was done for a year three times. I did more once or twice Well, I was like, yeah, that's way too much for me. I'm I'm okay with doing A conference per quarter. That's enough for for my introvert Character So, yeah, it's a good point. I'm flying out next saturday to kubecon And yeah, like I remember being in san diego and like at the conservator summit and like There was all kinds of technical issues and then like, you know It's much easier to say. Hey, you don't know get let's just sit down and run through it real quick Right, like this is the bare minimum. You need to know now you're a good contributor and like Having that face-to-face discussion where there's you know body language and everything else. It's a lot easier to interpret Exactly the work that's happening, right? Like that's it's It is very different, right and even like life dream like we are right now It's not quite the same as sitting down at a table with our computers and talking about a problem, right? Like it's very much a Hey, we're going to talk. We're going to work. We'll talk some more. We'll work some more, right? Like it's not the same flow, right? Yeah, exactly Yeah, I even have to confess though. Even at san diego when I was there Like I'm not a not a crowd person either like, you know a bit of an introvert So like the keynote sessions. I don't go wake in line. Whatever. I stream them from my room So there I am in san diego Sitting looking around at poles Away So Finally being an introvert I actually sat during all of the keynote sessions and actually I if I remember correctly The keynote sessions were the only ones that I actually attended because the the remaining ones I usually end up talking with folks in the corridors or in the both halls or you know basically wandering around and eventually Just popping in for for my session or one or two either Sessions so the key notes were like the ones that you can actually find me on And then the ones that where I'm presenting others. Well, I usually try to set up my schedule somehow Oh, yes, these are the stuff that I want to see I probably don't see I don't know like 20 30 of what I check like yeah, I want to check this one out. Yeah, we have the same here Yeah, I get a few sessions in that feels like about it Yeah, I spend more time talking to people and figuring things out than I do actually listening to people talk, right? Exactly exactly That someone just mentioned in chat Rapscallion Reeves at least most people at those conferences tend to be introverts too. So you're kind of amongst your own people um And then yeah Tanawa three points out acoustics for the uh exhibition hall in san diego was awful If anybody remembers that it was just constantly loud In this big domed space with music playing in the background 20 000 of our favorite friends or whatever Can't remember the attendance numbers, but it was just loud I mean, I remember the I remember when we were in london. I think that was the first kubecon um in europe and there was like 100 and something people we We barely had like two or three rooms Just a little bit of people Berlin was pretty much similar and then it just grew exponentially over the years. That was crazy Yeah And this kubecon I feel like is gonna be a little bit like that where it's like A little smaller more, you know quaint environment compared to the the tens of thousands we're used to Yeah, but the the downside of that one is that we will be missing a lot of the contributors to the core Because of different reasons. They're not traveling to us or they are not even traveling within the us I spoke with many people and It's not as easy or they are just not willing to To do so at this point in time. So Yeah, no, I was just talking to a friend on twitter a few minutes before the show started before we got on air and it was like Yeah, no, they can't come because they're in the uk or you know, berlin or whatever and Yeah, the the lack of international folks is going to be very obvious, right? Like it'll feel very You know us based right like as opposed to international conference where people kind of gather But With two minutes left, there's no questions in chat for oh, there is one question in chat. I don't want to ask. Sorry What's the best way for random people slash developers to help out with kube projects? I have my opinion, but I like to hear yours or steves for that matter Honestly, I always say that it's easiest to Show up during one of the calls. Yep, whether that'll be 60 lie or say gaps Especially the ones that are going through box crops. So for example, we will be going through customized box crop tomorrow or there's a 60 lie box crop in two weeks from from tomorrow Those are the places where we literally asked is anyone interested in working on this one Anyone? It's a good place for For asking questions if you're new Even during the sig apps or 60 lie calls We try to give a little bit of space at the beginning for everyone to introduce themselves with they are what they want to Work on so it's perfectly fine to also show up for any of those calls and And explain. Oh, this is the issue that I noticed. I want to work on it Can you help me and just ask questions? There's no dumb questions about any of those topics. So it's the right place to ask that That's that's usually my my simple answer Yeah, and that's my answer too to be honest with you steve. I'm curious if you have a different opinion Yeah, I mean I think also the contributions are very valuable across the board. So talking about like Getting started early and looking at some of the setup instructions might be wrong helping fix those up opening bugs for You know issues you see for different things that seem a little off So all of those things are a good way to get started and like I think one time I started was I was even a go Coder and I fixed one of the The cli issues just because the new lines were screwed up So I knew how to insert new line and compile the code and contribute that back So it was like I could even just fix it was like easy enough said describing the problem It's like here you go, you know, so I think the little things like that are a good way It just depends on your context and background so Yeah, I mean I started off in sick docs very early on and then made my way over to Contrabex and that's kind of where I live now. That's fine with me That that'll work for anybody else. I feel like too Yeah, there are multiple options. So just Pick one Yeah, and if you really you know want to talk about it feel free to ping me on the kubernetes slack folks for short Wide open there. I'm sure machek and steve Are welcome to answer your questions exactly And Yeah, so thank you machek. Thank you steve for guest hosting. Thank you audience for attending Really appreciate everybody here on this call blighting out there. Thank you very much It's good to talk. Yeah Coming up later today. We have the call for code for rachel justice. We'll be talking about take two It's a project that will help folks Analyze data about the justice system in a way that will Make people rethink about sentencing and things like that. So should be an interesting call and lots of fun stuff for the ibm team On the call for code side. So yeah, good stuff. So thank you everyone for joining and have a great day and stay safe out there