 Rwy'n cael myfyrdd i'r ddangos gyda'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r Cyngorau Pwysigol Gwyddiant, ac mae gwybod i'n myfyrdd i'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r Eicolau Llywodraeth, ond mae'n ddigonio'r cymdeithasol gwirionedd ymweld. Mae'r ddweud o'r gyfnod o'r Chychbrodi, ymddangos i'r Gwyddiant. A wnaeth i'n gwybod i'r Gymdi Edi, ymddangos i'r gyfnod ymddangos, Thank you, Jim, for coming along to substitute for Chick Brody. Agenda item 1, decision on taking business in private. The first item of business seeks the committee's agreement to take agenda item 4, the draft note of decisions to take in the business planning discussion in private. Does the committee agree to take this item in private? Thank you for that. Agenda item 2, consideration of new petitions. The next item of business is consideration of four new petitions. The committee invited the petitioners to speak to three of the petitions. The first new petition is PE1523, by Jess Smith, on giving the tinker's heart for guile back to travelling people. Members have a note by the clerk, the spice briefing and the petition. Can I welcome Jess Smith? Thank you very much for coming along. You are very welcome. Also, Mike Russell, who is the constituency MSPU, has had a great interest in this particular petition. I can ask if Jess Smith could speak to the petition of a maximum of five minutes. That will be followed by a contribution from Mike Russell. I will kick off with some questions. I invite my colleagues to have some questions, and then we will summarise and look at the next steps for your petition. Jess Smith, thank you very much for coming along. Thank you, David. In 2010, I was informed that the tinker's heart of quartz stone at the junction of Hell's Glen on the road to Strachar was almost destroyed due to neglect and cattle trampling over it. My husband and I went to see for ourselves and when I saw the state of the place, a knot formed like a stone in my stomach causing the death knell of an entire culture. The travelling folk whose families came from the area and many of those who had left believed that it was indestructible, a living monument. Nothing or no one would interfere with the place. Locals were proud to say it was in their part of her guile and it served as a church to those who went there, some to baptise babies, others to get married and those to die. The little heart was all the traveller's heart, an ancient place and nobody has discovered its roots. It's believed that the lads of the cowl who didn't return from the battlefield of Claude Moore were remembered by their families by placing a white quartz stone on the ground overlooking Lough Fine. And this was in the shape of a heart. And there are those who say it was appropriate to place the stones there because it is believed that on the ancient spot stood a Celtic church. A standing stone is supposed to have towered on the spot but was destroyed and the stones arranged to indicate where it stood because we really don't know its history. In 1808, at the construction of roads, it lay there undistalled. The builders worked around it making certain they did not interfere with it. In 1928, Lady George Campbell protested at a meeting of Cowell District Committee against any interference of the heart which at times became covered in grass. That part she held was of historical and sentimental interest as it was known from time immemorial to have been the place where the wedding ceremony of tinkers took place. The Reverend John McOrkindale, from Loch Goylhead, officiated at ceremonies there. Travelers, some with horse and carts, others with small prams and the foot soldiers visited year after year and they knew him well. It was their place to go to be reinstated with the earth. There was also a trump man who built a small hut down the road part ways to Cairndew and it said he watched over the heart for many a year. Allow me to read this letter to you. It was addressed to the headmaster of Ferryden School Montrose. His name was Mr White. He wrote to Betsi White congratulating her on the publication of Yellow on the broom. This is her reply. Dear Mr White, your letter was a delightful surprise. Of course we remember you but can hardly believe that you are retired. The years have slipped past so stealthily. One of my most pleasant memories of Ferryden was of you. It was the day of the Queen's coronation and the weather had become rather nasty so the children's fancy dress parade was held in the Scouts Hall. I was standing behind you and the other officials and I heard you say, I think the sheik and his wife are the best dress berns. However, the councillor said to you, oh, but that's the tinks and you can't pick them. The children were my daughter and her cousin so I turned away feeling rather depressed. To think that those educated men had so little sense then imagine my surprise when I heard you say and I can remember your exact words. I don't think anyone can dispute that the sheik and his wife are the best dressed berns and I truly admired your courage and during your stay in Ferryden there was no discrimination or segregation of the traveller children. You might want to ask, what does the traveller culture have to do with Celtic or any other piece of Scottish history? Well, as the Battle of Culloden was in 1746 you may want to read Robert Burns' address from Belsabob to the head of the Highland Society who wanted a certain Lord Glengarry who was successful in murdering and scattering 500 Glengarry Highlanders. When the Pai Cotid Gentleman of Edinburgh invited him to pen the poem, Burns, who was the great grandson of Walter Campbell of Lorne, a strong Jacobite spat fire, when he said, I'll write it, but no for me. Only the devil would suck me sick a chill and I'll do him the honour. And this poem was penned in 1786, long before the claim says, and only 40 years after Culloden, and here's one verse, and get a horse whip and a jowler, the languest thang, the fiercest growler, and guard the tatter gypsy packs where are their bees on their backs. Burns's ancestral roots were so strong he followed his heart and he showed immense courage. Lady Campbell, when she took on the Cowell Council, she too showed courage. I can imagine the look of surprise on the faces of those councillors when she may have thumped the table and insisted the old heart be protected. There is no doubt her request would have seen eyebrows raised when she demanded no, let the tinkers keep their heart, a very courageous gesture from such a prestigious Argyllshir lady. And when the Reverend John MacOrkindale ignored the might of the Church of Scotland and carried his Bible under his arm and gave his time to baptise the travelling baby, give comfort to the relatives of the deceased and bless the union of a young couple heading on their journey of marriage, he too showed courage. For that is what the Reverend portrayed, because if his masters had discovered he was officiating outside the house of God, he may well have lost his position and his mans. Every day a young traveller steps inside school. He or she knows that at any time they could be subjected to bullying. They are aware that their right to an education is theirs, a gift from the country of their birth. Their parents and grandparents suffered the same discrimination. The youngsters could take the easy way out and stop schooling and who could blame them, but they desperately want an education to go to university and fulfil their dreams. So they bite their tongues and they live with verbal and physical abuse and that takes a lot of courage. The heart to these young people is so much more than a monument. It is an indicator of what they believe is their culture. It represents a future, a place to visit and say, we are part of this country and we can make a difference. Letters remain proud of our ancestors because they kept our dreams for equality alive. They travelled to this little place in all weathers and we would like to say thank you and the only way we know how is to fight for the tinker's heart of our guile to be scheduled and protected by Historic Scotland. We now invite them to show some courage. Thank you very much. It's a very interesting presentation and I really appreciate you coming along and talking to the committee today. I can now ask Mike Bussell to add his contribution. Thank you to the committee for hearing this petition. I want to start by paying tribute to Jess Smith who I'm very proud to call a friend now. We've been working on this for a number of years and I'm quite certain it will have success. Not only because of Jess's determination but because of all those people behind her and some of whom are here today who feel very passionately that it is about time that we recognise the contribution of the travelling people of Scotland to our nation in two ways. Both to recognise the historic contribution they made and Jess has outlined that very strongly but also to in a sense reconcile that contribution into the modern day. This is the only physical artefact that we can associate with the travelling people. There is no other physical artefact in Scotland that has the association. In those circumstances it forms a unique contribution to our heritage both tangible and intangible. Convenient, if I can just mention in passing the convention for the safeguarding of the intangible cultural heritage passed by UNESCO in October 2003 came into force in 2006 still not ratified by successive UK Governments but an important contribution to understanding this whole issue that history is not just about places it is not just about buildings it is also about the intangible it is about the cultural contribution that comes from all groups within the community and this remarkable artefact brings those two things together it doesn't matter too much whether it has always been in exactly the same place it doesn't matter too much as your briefing paper indicates that it might have had more stones in it at one stage it is a vitally important assemble of the contribution of a very important group to Scotland and in those circumstances we should do everything we can to preserve it and to enhance its meaning and its availability and I want to make that point very strongly convener the monument at the moment and I want to call it a monument is not scheduled and it should be and the scheduling can take place because I don't think that Historic Scotland have given enough weight to the convention on the intangible heritage and the exception in this case to schedule it in those circumstances they also want to proactively along with others including our Gail and Bute Council bring in to this a landowner who really needs to be focused and involved on this and to bring in the community who need to be focused and involved in this to do three important things one is to increase physical access the monument stands in a field at a very awkward road junction where parking is dangerous and the availability of a piece of old road next to it which would provide access and parking secondly there needs to be significant signage there is one very small inadequate sign and there is a proposal by the landowner and their family to have further information provided at a community information point three miles distant that is contrary to all good practice there should be good substantial well designed signage on the site that explains the significance of this spot to Jess herself whose grandmother was born not so far from it am I right, your mother your mother born on the shore down below it in a story that needs to be told about how people lived and travellers lived in our Gail and the third thing is maintenance that there needs to be a arrangement put in place that cleans it up it's presently surrounded by a metal container which I think is whilst I think it's improved on what was there is by no means a best practice it should be maintained and looked after in a way that speaks of its importance I've been delighted to work with Jess and others on this it's unfinished business in terms of the travelling people but also in our Gail and it would draw many many people to a part of our Gail that really doesn't draw as many as it should so that they can understand the importance of this community community just to finish when I was very much younger I saw families of travellers sitting on the shores of Loch Fine that no longer takes place but the area is redolent of the contribution the very productive positive contribution of the travelling people of Scotland and I feel extremely strongly that this should now be recognised properly by the landowner by Historic Scotland by the Scottish Government by all of us as a community so we can move forward I thank Mike Russell very much for that that was both in the philosophy and in the practical steps that we perhaps can be helpful here and certainly on a personal view I'm going to a gown with you to think at during the recess so I'll certainly make sure that I visit the heart when I'm there and thank you for drawing it just to my views but also to the whole committees as well so just to be clear then on the practical steps it would be useful then if you could get the monument scheduled and to look at restoration and preservation so that would be the first practical step how would you describe your approaches to Historic Scotland so far? We met them once in the council Bill Hector Kilmory and I felt that we were there to discuss the heart but I felt by the way that the procedures went that the person from Historic Scotland had already made up his mind and it was a bit negative I would have loved to have went into conversation with him because a lot of times what we really need to do and Mike touch on this is to educate people about what up until this present day has been people who were kept to themselves, they were oralists they shared the stories and the songs Hemish Henderson would tell you that and really the history of Scotland went from campfire to campfire but it was never ever written down so I have attempted to write as much as I could in six books but we really need a lot more history, we need the young to be involved in this, we need them to get their respect back for their culture before it drifts away into the midst of time It would be helpful then if the committee agrees to this to put a very strong representation to Historic Scotland it would seem sensible to contact a Gellan Bute Council and the landowner, would that be a sensible practical steps? Yes, what we have come it's four years now I've been found for this and campaigning I'm up with lots of other people's help and what I found with the landowner is she seems to have made up her mind that nothing is going to progress that they are going to look after it and with all respect I say to the landowner she'll die, I'll die but all the other monuments in Scotland, all the war memorials have to be preserved, it has to live on because it's not about the living it's about everybody we really have to look after it and with all that she might want to keep the little cage there as access is but as I say it could change at any minute it has to be more cemented As Mike Russell said this is also a great opportunity to develop tourism in such a beautiful area I've been an author I've spent some time in many parts of the world there's still Nova Scotia in New Zealand and people that have come from the culture several generations ago but have not taken their birth coat off are very proud of who they are we want to go back to Scotland out of the place of our ancestors where did we go we know they travelled around Argyll we know they travelled around Perthshire they were banished very much like the clans but where did they go and I believe of Argyll and Bute council we just show a little bit of oversight and say let's think about this get the wee car park get tourism let them enjoy let them spend their money and other parts of Argyll and if the tourist industry took that on board and took it into their criteria we may see quite an asset for Argyll so there is also funding available here which there could also be access as well thank you for that and I throw open to questions from my colleagues Angus MacDonald Yes, thanks Camuna at the outset that was an excellent presentation both from Jess and yourself Mr Russell I have to admit to my shame that I wasn't aware of the tinker's heart until I had side of this petition and I also have to admit that I was touched by the heartfelt plea by Jess Smith for the proper recognition of the site it is according to the briefing that we had prior to this meeting it's unfortunate to say the least that the landowner, Kate Howe I think seems to be less than supportive and clearly the issues being brought up by the convener but have you or any of the other local politicians or Mr Russell had any face-to-face meetings with Ms Howe I've written to her including stamped arrest envelopes but she refuses to reply but Mike has he has met with him I met with Kate Howe on one occasion to discuss this to be fair to Kate Howe and I've seen to make sure that the monument is preserved and the local historical society make the same statement but with the best one in the world they haven't got the skills to maintain such a monument it's simply impossible for them nor do they have the resources to maintain such a monument nor do they have the resources to improve the setting of the monument so in all those circumstances I think if I take her at her face value they've been very positive indeed and indeed it was Arkham's enthusiasm that got us really pushed forward on this it is they who really need to come in and help to make this matter to make it happen John Wilson Thank you very much and I'm glad to hear Jess Smith keeping the oral traditions of the community alive and well as well as putting many of the stories down and writing because it is a tradition that people of Scotland should be proud of and should be well aware of in terms of the struggles and history of the travelled people in Scotland because as you said some of them have moved to other lands but their hearts still remain in Scotland and I think this is the whole issue about the thinker's heart and in your submission Ms Smith you actually gave an indication that Historic Scotland and your actual phrases Historic Scotland Rep said that they would not go against the wishes of the landowner and that worries me when Historic Scotland when you clearly identify an ancient monument and Historic Scotland with the powers that they have the authority they have feel that they do not wish to go against the landowner's wishes and unfortunately frightens me because it once again clearly indicates Historic Scotland failing to understand their role in preserving the history particularly when you've got something that's a physical history of Scotland because the wishes of a landowner Mr Russell made reference to the landowner saying that she will do things to preserve the site but does that include and do you understand it to include continued access to that the thinker's heart because one of the main issues for me is is the issue about continued access to the site by not only the travelling community but by others who may wish to visit that site what she specified was that she didn't want to make any changes that they'd put the to stop the cattle because the cattle are in there to stop the cattle tramping over it and destroying it she had this black cage put round about it which is temporary because they are big highland cattle with big horns and they will break it down in fact it is dented already and she did say that she only wanted a small signage on the gate and when it was suggested about a little kissing gate an entrance on that they decided against that in a field with cattle without access by anyone and if old people want to visit them they can't climb the gate and she wanted the gate locked but I don't think that's allowed you know the Scottish land rights you cannot lock gates it is after all part of the road system which did one time belong to the public it's just derelict but I found that she didn't want to change anything and that's really why I'm here today because we will all die and we need another body to protect it and look after it Mr Smith you made reference to the fact that it was a public road that the site stands in I'm a bit bemused if it was a public road then how does that public road now belong to a private land owner a lady here in the audience who's went to Great Lens Freedom of Information she cannot find out when that public road went into in fact we don't know for sure who owns that we've went to Great Lens the Sassain records and the land rights and we don't know there is a family called Noble one owns one estate, Christina and a nephew owns another Arkenglass and Kate Howe owns the neighbouring one Arden now it's interesting that it was effectively a public highway and that's probably the reason why it was in a public highway because of the access routes from the different parts of Argyll for people travelling through travelling to and settling there for short periods of time so it would be interesting if we could get the Historic Scotland or whoever to actually look at that to find out when public land or public highways actually come into private ownership what conditions applied to that and as Mike Russell indicated there's quite clearly the old road that passes through it would give us some access to parking, to access to the site without too much problems but it's clearly worrying that it's currently fenced off in a way that is not readily accessible by the community who would want to use the park readily and to be able to access it at all times Thank you for that Further colleagues like to ask questions Jackson Carlaw I have a touching story and it's quite nice to be asked to look at a monument that is a source of joy rather than one where people were sacrificed which is where very often I find we're being asked to rather luridly be invited to do it doesn't seem in essence to me is if there is a huge financial demand underpinning the request that you are putting which I think is encouraging I'm just a little bit worried that we don't evolve an exaggerated expectation of of a unique tourist opportunity I take it it's more that you see it as being one of a number of things within that immediate community around lock fine and everywhere else that could attract tourism rather than necessarily frightening the horses slightly with talk of a major centre being built on the site or something of that character and it does seem to me important that we don't polarise the debate and alienate the landowner completely in the process so you see it as being an effort to underpin and preserve something which would be there when people were in the community in the area to also see and to appreciate and for us to do all we can to encourage the Government and Historic Scotland with the kind of authority of Parliament if you like to pursue the request with a little bit more enthusiasm and resolve is that it? Absolutely, ideally I would love to see the landowner come on board I would love to say you know gosh this is my land you know what an honour that I have this if indeed it is her land I would love to see her we are just asking for the place to be a wee dike round about it a nice little ornamental place and a little path into it for people to know in the map of Scotland that that exists and that this country actually respected the travelling culture to an extent that it went to this bother to do this to actually say right yeah we believe in the travellers we know what they have given this country because Hamish Henderson did say when he was you know living in and out of the streets of Blair gathering the balance and singing the songs and enjoying it and the School of Scottish Studies packed with all these stories and these visions from the past that the travelling people were the roots of the music of Scotland I mean my sisters could sing balance 20s 30 verses at age 7 because it was the natural thing to do Mike Russell Jackson Carlaw, if I might uncharacteristically praise him, has put it particularly well on this occasion there is an existing partnership to look after this monument and it is a partnership of the landowner her cousin Christina who runs the Here We Are the unit which is where they have the interpretive material the noble family and the community in Kendi now I expressed this previously in a letter in a local paper all that is being asked for is that that partnership admits to new members that Historic Scotland who I think need to be part of this because they have their expertise and they have the money too and it's not a great deal of money and they've indicated that they would want to put something towards this but the other part is the essential ones the travelling people of Scotland and I think at a time when we are looking at different ways of doing things and more participation in doing things the travelling people of Scotland have to be involved in the decision making about this site this is theirs and they should be part of that now if those two additional partners can join in we'll get a much enhanced site it won't be the Disneyland of Cowell by any manner of means but it will be a place where some people will want to stop they'll be able to stop safely because presently it's unsafe they'll be able to find out more about it and standing at the top of Loch Fyne looking down at what is a magnificent view down to the shore and down to Loch they will reflect upon a number of things including the role of the travelling people in Scotland so it is modest in scale and scope but it has huge significance but the travelling people have to be part of that thank you for that is there any other member who wishes to ask questions well in turn to the next step Jess Smith as we go to summation where we've finished questions but we're now looking at the next steps for the petition and I think what I was suggesting at the start is clearly we need to do a note to Historic Scotland making representations on your behalf to the Scottish Government and if the committee agrees obviously it seems sensible to write to Gailin Bute and on the point about who owns the road I've just thought that Gailin Bute are a good step to ask them about the ownership and also the landowner as well so I'm starting to suggest that these are four practical steps but the committee may have others could just ask the committee's views and the committee agree that these we should approach these four groups I'm in agreement with that I just think that when we write to the council I imagine that it's kind of slightly anecdotal I don't think we should in relation to the ownership of the road and the land I think it's just a little bit cautious I think we're asking for them for their best information on it rather than maybe asserting any position as having been validated I think that's a sensible point John Wilson If we're writing to Historic Scotland could I suggest we ask Historic Scotland to clarify what exactly their role is in preserving historic sites and monuments because clearly this is a historic site that we're being asked to be preserved it's just so that we get a more rounded picture of how Historic Scotland see their role in relation to these sites because I would hate to think that we write to Historic Scotland to give us a response regarding this site whereas I would prefer to get a more in-depth response in relation to the wider aspects of Historic Scotland and how they see their role in preserving sites and who they engage with I think that's a sensible point I think that goes back to the initial contribution by Jess Smith we need to ask him what the decision making process is to make the site a scheduled ancient monument because that's the trigger under the act that they would then have a requirement to follow this through I presume that this is a delegated power to the officers rather than ministerial but might Russell can probably identify that if that's incorrect but I would certainly want that action to be taking place because that triggers off powers under the act that then opens up all sorts of other opportunities so I think that we need to be clear on that It is the recognising of the culture that we have to press forward I don't think that enough people in authority in Scotland recognise the culture, its history and how long we've been here Tinkler Johnson, then I use that word with respect, is recorded in the A.K. Bell library in Perth as being a hammer man in the 12th century we are told that the travellers came here in the 1500s but we have them in Scotland a lot longer When the Duke of Argyll in 1913 was invited by Mr O'Neill a historian from Dublin to speak on the clans he says, can you trace them? Oh, I said the Duke of Argyll, I can trace them right back to the first seed but don't ask me to trace the carriage the sub-clans, I cannot and another word for Tinkler in Scotland is the carriage Right and we sometimes overuse the word unique but I think that in this site it is unique and we should remember that Are the committee agreeable then to that course of action? So as you've heard obviously very enthusiastic about your petition we'll keep you up to date with developments and the clerks will let you know when it's to be scheduled again and you may be that you want to come to the gallery on that particular day but we'll certainly pursue that and obviously we'll keep Mike Russell up to date as well because I know he's very interested in the petition so thanks very much for coming along and also thanks to all your colleagues for all the work that you've done in this I think very very interesting your petition Thank you so much I'll suspend for two minutes till our witnesses have changed round The second new petition is PE1526 by Jack Fletcher I'm half a sex expression UK on making sex and relationship education in Scotland statutory for all schools Members have a note by the clerk the spice briefing on the petition I can now welcome the petitioner Jack Fletcher and Rebecca Rice from sex expression UK to the meeting after that I'll kick off with some questions and invite my colleagues to ask further questions Mr Fletcher Good morning and thanks for having us The petition that I've sent in was for compulsory sex relationship education for primary and secondary schools I'd just like to draw attention that the petition did garner as much as 1096 signatures and also was supported by BMA Scotland THT Scotland, HIV Scotland Rape Crisis Scotland and also the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association who also agreed that what we're asking for is appropriate Our concern is that many schools are actually not being teaching sex relationship education at all and they're missing out on very vital information that can tackle public health issues such as the rate of sexual transmitted infections, teenage conception domestic violence and sexual harassment Improvement Scenario I've been backed by evidence and they can also address such issues as lack of exposure or their exposure to pornography or an incidences of homophobia biphoba and also transphilbia I strongly believe that the submission of crucial information together with the lack of inconsistency across the country is a breach of human rights in relation to education health and child protection for children and young people of Scotland I believe that a statutory change is necessary and that sex education is a fundamental human right and without it we are not equipping our children and young people with the knowledge to make safe, healthy and positive choices about their sexual and emotional health and wellbeing and it's a violation of these rights and should be a major child protection concern for the Scottish Government Currently, the Scottish Government figures show that sex relationship education is lacking across schools In the petition that I had already said how 13 out of 299 primary schools are not teaching it but in high school there are some areas in regions such as Strath Clyde where it's only 84% of schools teaching sex relationship education That's just as clearly just not enough As the British Medical Association wrote in a Britain statement to the health and sports committee inquiry into teenage pregnancy in 2013 and that although part of a curriculum of excellence they were not sexual health promotion was not implemented uniformly across Scotland There is also a very much a lack of training for teachers that are providing this education There's as few as one to five on-trained per area and region of the country and this is as low as 43% across different regions Scottish children and young people are left not only with a lack of information but has been delivered by on-trained teaching staff This would not happen in other areas of education and it is shocking that in such a case for a key area of personal, social and health education programme that is being omitted This lack of consistency is further evidenced in other examples with the BMA welcoming the Learning and Teaching Scotland self-assessment tool for this area of the curriculum as a useful source but argued that its implication was a patchy across the country Again, in a written response to the teenage pregnancy inquiry NHS Forfally noted that curriculum for excellence was designed to facilitate better links with sex education to potential real-life situations such as the impact of alcohol on the use of sexual behaviours and risk-taking in young people NHS Health Scotland itself was particularly critical of programmes in school It argued that although evidence clearly justified comprehensive sex and relationship education in education settings there was no obligation to do more than the minimum mostly around friendships as demonstrated in the curriculum for excellence It was also argued that there was no requirement to use evidence-informed resources whether the result that an appropriate or out-of-date and sometimes inaccurate or misleading materials could be used in schools It suggested that there were no requirement for teachers and other providing sex and relationship education to have undertaken any additional training The overall effect that NHS Health Scotland concluded was that sex and relationship education was patchy and introduced at too late a developmental stage with schools left to decide for themselves what and how they would deliver and with very little feedback from pupils to assess effectiveness I'm wary of the time To conclude on what I have and what other evidence I have with me today the provision of sex and relationship education is very good in Scotland and the curriculum of excellence does have that leeway to it for making it more appropriate for certain regions but just now there are certainly not all schools providing this education it's patchy and it's also not of a great level as the teachers themselves are not actually trained in the area themselves English teachers and are already You may have concerns that the curriculum for excellence is flexible and that it's not got any compulsory elements but I would draw a point to you that the religious and moral education is already compulsory part and we would be seeking the same level of commitment to this extra relationship education Thank you very much for your contribution and I could also encourage Rebecca Rice if she wishes to answer any questions just to catch Maybe you've partly covered my first question but is there not already an obligation on local authorities under the 2001 circle if I provide a broad framework of sexual health education in schools Yeah, it's just from a review of sexual relationship education in Scottish secondary schools on sexual health did show that there was a vary amount of 83 to as much as 93 but really should be 100% of kids reaching this level of information So it's patchy and also local authorities are carrying out in different ways across Scotland Is that partly your point? The current way we're doing things just isn't working STI rates have not changed since 1994 and things of teenage pregnancy haven't gone down much at all and this is something that we have tried to tackle and we do have very good teaching in an education system but the fact that things aren't changing and there's new pressures for children that things need to change and compulsory aspect is needed for all children to reach this information My final question is you may or may not be aware that there is a child sexual exploitation what we got a request from Bernardo Stekai this work out one of the recommendations was that we wish to raise awareness about CSE both with teachers and of course with pupils particularly around internet safety and sexual bullying which does come tie in quite closely with your petition Would you agree that that was a very important step in schools in Scotland? With lots of areas it seems to be a lot of things or just very biological and not much actual reference to the relationship sides or as I say key aspects that kids are facing of online dangers and the effect of pornography whether they're watching it or not is something that needs to be more updated and clearly sexual grooming was an issue that we took a lot of evidence about and so obviously schools have a very important role teachers have got massive responsibilities in the school but they are experts on the children they are charged and they can notice huge changes of behaviour but I think that it has to be done in a partnership way that's what we were stressing in our report thank you for that can I bring in my colleagues can I start with Anne McTaggart then David Torrance Thank you convener and welcome and thank you very much for your presentation coming from a social work background of the importance of of it being statutory in a sense however I am concerned of the young people that perhaps don't go to school as often is what they would like to or or be should do so that there is a huge onus then on our youth work provision for to try and enable that that message does still get across to our young people no matter what medium that takes but also with that there is a huge part of it that has to be left to parents as well and that's about using some of the parental mediums the parent Scotland network and for parents to perhaps learn more about how they could be more involved in about she as well I'm well aware that within my children's schools they're both primary and secondary well up to date on she but I take what you say that there is slippage there throughout How do you want to answer that? So do you have a specific question or do you just want to talk about it? Really the importance of youth work the youth provision is a way of getting people who've fallen through the net that way so for example, Sexpression does do some work with youth clubs I think that's a really important point and I think the parental point is also really key I think school can't do everything it's not up to school to do it especially in a sense of relationships and things like that so I think extending guidelines out to youth clubs and getting parents more involved is really important but I think that's where the best way to get to the majority of young people and children so I think that schools should be leading the way forward and if schools by their own want to get involved with local youth clubs and invite parents to come I think that should definitely be encouraged Thank you David Torrance Good morning You're talking about training and teachers and lack of training Do you think that Scotland's got a greater role to play and the reason I'm saying it is one of my schools in my constituency Kirkcalty High School to a very bold move to go into partnership with NHS Fife to create a hub within the school they made the headlines for giving out free condoms in the mail but working with the pupils who are on it the teachers and NHS Fife they've made a huge success in an area of deprivation and seen a massive reduction of weaknesses within that area and my constituency has one of the highest rates so do you think NHS Scotland has got a greater role in partnership working to go into schools and create these hubs Living and working in Fife I thought might be best We actually work with NHS Fife as well in 6th question to Andrew so I absolutely agree I think the word NHS Fife particularly do with schools is excellent and should be encouraged I think it's not always up to the teachers because they're experts in the subject but it can be helpful for the pupils so they can really engage the outside speaker just because it's not the usual person they can feel more comfortable just being relaxed especially for peer educators so that's something we find a lot NHS Fife do a lot of good work I'm sure other counties do great work as well but I absolutely agree with you part of the recommendation currently in place for the guidelines for SRE is to encourage the use of external speakers which is how we get our gig in quite well Jackson Carlaw I'm slightly conflicted by your petition I've spoken in public health in the Parliament for the last number of years and I'm acutely aware of all the difficulties there are particularly amongst young people with the spread of sexual disease Chlamydia in particular which frankly I suppose in a shorthand many boys think has nothing to do with them when of course it is everything to do with them and I respect and agree with a number of the objectives within your petition but it strikes me that there is a difference between guidance advice and information and the statutory incorporation into the curriculum where I would worry that there would be a perceived version of what is correct and that that perceived version of what is correct might in some ways be at odds with the parents for whom all these children are still dependents and I wonder if there may not be a conflict that arises there through making it a statutory part of the curriculum so that's one question for you to reflect on and the other is we talk about Scotland and very often the indices that we look at are in comparison to other countries and I wonder whether you have looked at the way other countries are currently particularly those countries adjacent or immediate to us both within the United Kingdom but also within the European Union looking to try and develop an understanding of these fields admitting of course they come from a different starting point and with a different cultural perspective but that may be something which I would want some further understanding of before I would be sure how to take forward your petition I'll take the first question and Rebecca can give you a case study actually from Finland in terms of parents there's always that concern apart from it but there's lots of studies that do around 80% of parents do completely back sex and education relationship information it's about teaching factual information that are often just very health based on what it is and then they can actually make their own decisions on that information it's not about coercing them into some sort of that everyone should get an abortion or things like that that some people do get a bit worried about which is fine because you don't have to take you don't have to use the contraception if you don't want to but it's getting the facts that something like the condom can prevent community care and giving them that tool to a knowledge to be able to apply that to their lives and how sex education that's why I think that if we had a core of certain values that were compulsory then parents could also discuss as part of their PTAs of what sort of things could then be more appropriate so it's sort of things like gender based violence maybe that might not be in a core but it could be sort of more applyable to certain regions My concern I think is when it becomes part of the statutory curriculum there is a received wisdom as to what is correct and I have already seen with my own son's education in a completely alternate example where they were talking about the political systems and my son argued that he thought first passed the post was the correct political system and he was marked down because that was incorrect he was told the ideal political system as a proportional one now that struck me as a perception of somebody else's truth being imposed on him now I extend that to sexual education and sexual attitudes and I would worry that there was a received wisdom as to what was correct and that anyone who perhaps took an alternative view to that would be told that they were wrong when in fact that's a subjective argument not necessarily an absolute one The current guidelines that instead of making them statutory are already very robust and evidence based and careful thought to such issues as you've raised and the difference is just them making it compulsory whereas what is appropriate has already been found by the education part of the Government that I would say I absolutely agree with you I think that is a really common concern and what we would be looking for to be implemented would be sort of two separate parts would be the fact confirmation which there isn't really much discussion around the facts about the STI rates these are different efficacy rates of contraception and so on then there's more discussion based things and I do not think that teachers should be told to preach any sort of ideology at all it should be more about facilitating discussion and really looking for discussion I think it's good for children to hear all sides of an argument I think that will really inform their learning I do think that should be compulsory at all I don't think that should be optional I think that discussions about domestic violence rape, assault and child abuse should definitely brought up in schools and from a young age there are core values that we should be promoting certainly but never ever an ideology so for example abortion is always the one that's the big controversy I think that it can be definitely taught appropriately and you ask you give them scenarios so you say is it appropriate X, Y, Z what would a religious view be on that being you facilitate discussion it's never about preaching so it would be more about asking teachers to facilitate discussions on those topics and it wouldn't be like an exam you would never get two marks for mentioning a certain study it wouldn't be like an exam safer biology it would be more like with RE where you have a discussion I think that's a really important point Thank you for that Maybe Jackson, Carlo and myself can have a discussion about democracy at a later date in relation to what's the best perceived electoral system but in relation to the petition before us clearly some of the figures that you've used where you've said one quarter 24 per cent had no SRE trained staff and in 52 per cent of schools the staff currently responsible for SRE delivery were not trained do you think there is insufficient training being provided to teaching staff when they're being asked to take on this potentially be seen as a vital role and awareness raising for many young people in society today? I would say yes, I'd give the example of my own mum who's an English teacher at high school and she does sex relationship education so have you ever been taught in sort of the health and what is comedy on things like that and what is a healthy relationship and she's just like no you just kind of go on what you think is about right and with the guidelines there is that sort of assurance that you can fall back on something but there is definitely a lot of teachers out there really struggling with the lack of training that they have and for there to be great PSHE teachers within the system of course and I've met many and some of the sex ed is great in Aberdeen where I've been meeting in schools but there's just so many teachers that aren't trained and the quote I had was one to five people in the region I mean think how many schools are per region so that might be only one teacher per school that's trained in it so are all the children being able to be taught by the one teacher so the lack of training it really is becoming an issue A colleague David Torrance made reference to the work that's been done in Fife with NHS in Fife do you think that that is a more practical way forward for local authority education departments to work in conjunction with others in terms of delivery of SRE in the schools because one of the things is that while we may have a lack of trained teachers there is moment certainly we've got health education staff within the NHS that I'm sure could be utilised within the school system not only providing some awareness raising in the schools but also potentially continued backup care for those pupils that identify particular issues such as STDs or whatever in relation to their lifestyles or their peer group lifestyles We've got statistics here from the wellbeing and sexual health report that there is 76% of regions using other professionals that can give the sort of in-depth knowledge and that's our great thing with our expression we wouldn't be in the schools without the school but the fact is that even though we are getting external organisations and we are getting involvement of NHS, which is the 5th one I thought was fantastic the fact is that it's just not working there's been no change in STI rates there's been all these issues that are not being tackled and that's the issue that I'm raising today is that we need to do something more than we are just now Finally, convener Just to question you have raised in your submission the issue of denominational education and the lack of the teaching of sexual health awareness within some schools Do you think in this day and age that that should be allowed to continue or do you think every child attending school should have their awareness raised in relation to relationships? That was one of the main points I wanted to get in my statement was that I feel like with schools not providing this SRE it's a breach of the human rights of the children that they're not reaching this education status that Scotland of all places should be doing and we talked about other countries where there was where was it you asked about Jackson Carlaw Finland because they have sex education already and they had a 50% sorry basically Finland did much you can do that but yeah sorry that was a hard bit to speak but basically Finland there's always Switzerland Holland Sweden all have sex education and we're actually very much far behind this standard human right that our children aren't being exposed to Do you want to? We did have a much longer speech at the beginning because we thought we had more time so that's why we're a bit over the place So in Finland sex education was compulsory in schools in 1970 and then that was dropped down to optional in 1994 and at that point there was a 50% increase in teenage abortions there was an increase in girls starting to have sex at younger ages of 14, 15 and it was a decline in the use of contraception and then in 2006 a new subject health was introduced and it was made compulsory with some classes having a minimum of 20 hours training in it and at that point the trend just immediately started to reverse and girls are now starting to have sex at an older age they're using more contraception teenage abortions has dropped and there's a small decline in teenage births and it really is a massive public health tool education Thank you for that, Jim Eadie Thank you, Kevena, and good morning Can I just ask you what involvement and input you've had in the development of the new draft guidance that's being taken forward by the Scottish Government and the associated learning materials that would be provided alongside that Well It was a little bit late actually in getting involved with it particularly in Scotland because there was a letter sent from the Human Rights Association for a centre in Glasgow and they'd already sent off the letter that we would have backed so basically nothing Do you have a view on the guidance as it currently stands? Basically that is very good there's a lot of when followed it is definitely going to help towards these sort of public health issues and just what's missing is that there's basically is that there's some schools that aren't getting this information Yeah, absolutely I think that the guidance is fantastic it's the only issue that is not being implemented fully I think that if it was made compulsory then I think that'd be fantastic the guidance is really good You've seen your submission that there are a number of reasons why making a sex relationship education in Scotland statutory is both necessary and a priority and one of those is the issue of homophobia in schools which you highlight as being something that leads to self-harm, depression and reduced educational attainment for young people Can you outline for the committee how you see that issue being tackled more effectively as a result of the change that you're proposing? Well there's definite studies that show that sex relationship education does make the LGBTI community much more included as schools don't take away that stigma and take away that homophobic angle that is through the lack of understanding of the issues that is going on and as I say a lot of schools are very good they are sort of the gay friendly systems that they've got but it's just that there's not enough schools that are doing this basically I think there's again there's two ways of doing it there's the factual base which I think LGBT is not done enough I think that a lot of homophobia stems from just misunderstanding I think particularly trans it can be just issues like just not understanding what it means so I think there's that one aspect of just clarifying terminology for children letting them know that just simple things like HIV is not a gay disease it's really surprising how many people still think that and still associate with only then there's the more again more discussion base so lesson plans that we do around homophobia can be things like setting up scenarios where you imagine yourself bringing your partner to dinner or things like that and then can you imagine if you always clarified imagine bringing it opposite sex partner now imagine if your partner was the same sex what kind of issues was that going to cause for you and to highlight just everyday problems things like that thank you for that we're a bit short of time, do you have any other final questions before we go to summation thank you very much for your petition we're now at the point where we're finished with questions we're looking at the next steps it certainly seems sensible that we write to the Scottish Government to seek their views on your petition because obviously it's clearly a Scottish Government responsibility you've also mentioned the new guidance on sex and relationship education when the final version will be complete and we'll then keep you up to date with developments but that's my suggestion I'd like to hear from the committee first of all are the committee agreeable that that's a next step for us in terms of pursuing this petition John Wilson I know you've said we write to the Scottish Government can I just seek clarification because I think we should be writing to the Scottish Government education department but we should also be writing to the health department as well because I think there are two separate issues here in relation to the guidance issue to the education departments around Scotland and local authorities because I think that the overlap that takes place and has to take place if we're going to be committed to delivering meaningful sex and relationship education to pupils and schools The other organisations committee now suggest we write to are the EIS because we talked about teaching staff and the skills one issue that was raised by Mr Fletcher was the issue about the lack of training provided to those teachers who were expected to go into a classroom and deliver SRE I could also suggest we write to either COSLA or a couple of the local authorities to find out exactly how they are using the guidance because clearly guidance is only guidance and it's basically left up to 32 local authority to actually determine how that guidance can be used and I think by Mr Rice and Mr Fletcher clearly indicated the guidance is really good but it's only really good if it's being applied and used within the education setting we have to try to ensure that when we write to the Scottish Government we try to impress upon them that we should be expecting that guidance to be delivered in the educational settings that children find themselves in because clearly without anything as I said guidance can be really excellent but unless it's actually been taught and delivered then clearly it's of no benefit particularly to many young people that require that support and assistance and guidance in terms of their future Jackson Carlaw Can I suggest we write to the consulates based in Edinburgh of some of our European partners I think it would be interesting if a number of them were able to give us a concise briefing on how these issues are addressed in their own countries and what the outcomes of that practice have been My members agree with the two additional points made by Jackson Carlaw and John Wilson in addition to the points that I made Thank you for that so as you've heard we're obviously taking your petition forward once we've got the responses back it'll be scheduled by the clerk in a future date obviously if you wish to attend in the gallery you're welcome to do so so we'll keep you up to date with developments and hopefully we'll get some progress that you've raised in your presentation today and I can thank both of you for coming along and putting forward the points of new petition in a very professional manner thank you both and I'll suspend for two minutes till our witnesses to change round Thank you We're now on PE 1529 by John Ronald on enforcement of child court orders The third enforcement new petitions are in the name of John Ronald The committee agreed to invite Mr Ronald to speak to the petition on the child court orders but not on the petition about child court reform Members have a note by the clerk of the spice briefing on the petition You're very welcome Thanks for coming along I can invite you if you could speak to a maximum of five minutes on the petition and thereafter we will kick off with some questions from myself and my colleagues Certainly, first of all I'd like to thank you, Mr Convener and the rest of the committee for inviting me along to give evidence on my petition The petition is a very close-hearted petition to myself and I'm not a very good public speaker so I do apologise that I get mixed up or hesitant or anything like that First of all I would like to start by saying when family break-ups happen it's dramatic not in particular for the children they go through a whole load of emotions Generally 9 out of 10 times it's the mother who ends up with the child in custody and the father has to go through court if there's not an agreement between them on visitation The norm resident parent follows what the rules are set out by the Government and the law goes through a whole wide range of court sessions and hiring a lawyer paying a lot of money for a lawyer to get visitation rights for the children The one's visitation contact has been guaranteed by the judge as the judge deems what is in the best interests of the child There's been an increasing there's been an increasing episodes of where the resident the parent of residence just changes the contact order changes the times to suit yourself This was highlighted in Herald on May of this year that there was a very large increase in the resident the parent of residency just chops and changes the order as we win the suit Now, there is no enforcement of this order apart from having to go back to court again which again costs the non-resident parent thousands of pounds and it's generally 80% of them are hardworking working class people especially in this climate where there's been pay freezes the wage isn't going up the same way as in relation So the parent with norm residency has to pay thousands of pounds to hire a lawyer again to go back to court for the judge to mostly be quite dismissive in these matters I've had personal experience with this where the parent who has just totally disobeyed an order has just turned around and said that don't do that again followed the order that's been made and there's been no sanctions there's been nothing put in place the police can't do anything to help the only people who actually gain from the order not being followed is the lawyers because they end up getting paid thousands of pounds more working class people went to a lot of debt for it's not an option you know you've got two options it's either one you just don't see your child or you let the mother your child or the father the child who has got custody of the children do as they wish which isn't an option for most parents most parents will be gladly going to debt just to try and get it resolved I'm simply here to ask yourselves and you know it's is there not a body a governing body which can enforce child orders now I would understand if there was a problem if the father of the mother who doesn't have custody was putting the child at risk or if there was issues I would completely agree with not giving the child over I wouldn't give my child back if I thought my child was at risk if it's just the fact that the non-resident parent the parent with residence just wants to change things because it suits their lifestyle because it suits what they're doing for that week or for that month you know I do believe that there should be something in place that actually stops that from happening instead of punishing the person who's followed the rules and regulations that were set out by the government to obtain access through the legal system went through the whole legal aspect got a court order and just for that court order to be dismissive even lawyers I must admit some lawyers even dismiss the court order I actually have with me a letter which I got from a lawyer telling me that there was no discussion or anything around access to my child and I've got a letter from a lawyer just telling me about access won't take place you know and that's that where there's been no discussion about a holiday or anything I've just sent my letter out saying access isn't going to happen for this period of time and there's really no one who can do anything about it apart from having to go back into debt which I have done to go back through court using the problems that I don't have but as I said it's not an option there's no I can't just sit back and then not see my child so I would rather go into debt which I can't afford most fathers have which have been proven in the Herald which they've done in May most fathers and mothers who don't have access would gladly go into debt resolved and really that's the basis of my petition is that there should be something there where we can go to if there's no risk and it's just the fact that the mother or the father whoever has residence changed their mind because they happened to work away for that week or they happened to have a night out that week so you're not seeing the child for that day so it's in place which says this is the court order and if there's no risk to the child any dangers or any fears then you must follow up thank you thank you much for your presentation there were some quite difficult personal issues around your presentations so I appreciate you coming along and speaking about the Scotland wide issue so clearly you feel there's a weakness in the current court procedure as far as child access procedures are concerned how would you remedy in an ideal world that weakness that you perceive in the Scottish court system? I would set up either um I would either set up a family kind of liaison body you know where they're kind of similar to the police but they're not the police but they do have powers where if contact doesn't happen they would come out on that day if your house was burgled you would phone the police you would phone somebody what has legal powers to come out ascertain what's going on and then determine whether there's significant facts to why the court order isn't being followed and if the court order isn't being followed then I do believe there should be sanctions whether it be the other partner has to pay the legal fees or whether it be now the other partner is giving warnings or I don't know sanctions of some sort but there should be a legal body to make sure that court orders do follow so that people who do go through the legal channels which is set out by the Government you know they tell us this is what you must do to get access we go through all those channels we spend all that money so we feel let down we feel there should be something there to support us once we've done that once access has been granted we feel let down that the police or no one else has social work that can get involved and you have to go back to the start again and go all the way through the court process which can take months as the parent who doesn't see the child and the child themselves you may be aware we also have another petition which we were looking at with Ron Park about equal rights for unmarried fathers so it may be if the committee is agreeable that we try and consolidate all the discussions we're doing about the same issue at a later date but that's obviously a matter for the committee it may not exactly cover your point Mr Ronald but the last session suggested that there would be a Scotland-wide system of specialist family law courts which it hasn't come to fruition but certainly they've made some recommendations in an area which is not too far away from some of your suggestions so there has been some debate around this I think one of the other issues to be found in previous petitions is about access to legal aid which is obviously a difficult issue and you yourself have identified that could I then bring in my colleagues to have received any colleague wishes to ask a point Amit Taggart Thank you convener and thank you very much Mr Ronald for your presentation I'm finding it more and more within my own surgery cases that it's kind of turning that there has been loads of fathers have presented at my surgery for access to their children and obviously they have grievances about the legal system just now however I am a huge supporter of mediation and think that your idea is great that the only person that does gain from is exactly your correct is the legal system the lawyers who gain financially from this and obviously the losers are the children I think it's hugely important that what the convener has asked we do have a few of these petitions that could be put together and for the committee I would be suggesting that we do look at them together and perhaps look into inquiring to the justice systems report that they have done previously I fully agree with what you had suggested I think that's a fabulous idea but obviously it's not entirely up to myself for that to happen I think that something's got to happen and I think for to continue this petition and enable us to inquire further convener would be a great idea Thank you fat, John Mawson In your submission you indicated that you spoke to the Scottish Government child legal team who indicated that they can't enforce the order on the basis of the best interests of the child can you expand on the discussion that took place because my understanding is that we put legislation in place to allow the courts to make decisions particularly around access and what you're telling us today is that a court grants access rights to a parent but those access rights can then just be ignored by the parent who has residency or by any other individual who purports to be putting the interests of the child first I mean, I do actually have written proof of a court order and a lawyer's letter which the lawyer's letter totally contradicts the court order as far as the point you were making about the discussion that I had with the legal team they said that they can't enforce any sort of legal action as having the police get involved or any other organisation because it would have to go back through the courts to see why contact isn't taking place and I explained to them going back through the courts is going to cost thousands of pounds they can be, and I mentioned legal aid I'm a nurse a nurse at the legal aid but I'm one of those people who are just above the legal aid aspect but are also hit by not just a five-year pay freeze but my wage barely gets in the past so I don't have help but like most fathers in my situation and there will be some lawyers out there as well when you phone up the Scottish Government and you speak to the legal department you're just told they have to go back to court because the court has to then decide what is in the best interest when they already have decided what is in the best interest I was just totally fobbed off That's the point I'm trying to get to Mr Rorald if you've went to court to get granted access rights the people supposed to deliver that access right and then ignores the court order then what ultimately is happening is and I think Ann McTagar and others have mentioned the only people that seem to be making any real benefit of this are the legal profession and the courts potentially are being clogged up and reviewing decisions that have already been made by the courts and I can understand that there is a major change to circumstances then there may be issues about granting continued access but clearly it's a like Ann McTagar I think we need to take forward and ask the Scottish Government for clarification on what the intention of the legislation is if it's not delivering for parents who won't access rights and have been granted access rights I mean certainly the brief would suggest that I obviously don't want to talk about your individual case and if you don't mind perhaps don't mention here because it gets us into legal difficulties but the generality would be if one parent had access arrangements through the court and the other parent refused to allow that to happen that would be a contempt of court and if it was required to have legal action on the other side of the case that the costs could also be granted as well so I think that it's useful for us to do a bit more digging into the particular points that you're raising would other members wish to raise any general points that's been discussed this afternoon so I suppose what I would summarise from the philosophy isn't as well known to us all but clearly the current philosophy which successive Governments have looked at around children has been we should have a child-centred approach rather than a parent-centred approach that the welfare of the child would be paramount and that also the views and wishes of a child bearing in mind the age and maturity of the child has to be taken on board and obviously the family lost Scotland 2006 said that the need to protect a child from actual or possible abuse is another factor that courts need to take into account I think it's important to mention that it's probably well known by yourself and the committee that that should be and will be the philosophy that's in the mind of a judge when these cases come before the judge in day-to-day cases but it may be as Justice Committee has suggested last time around that there's a better model and certainly the issue of access to legal advice is a big issue that you've rightly identified and other petitioners have done that as well so does any other committee member wish to raise any other points but we've had a very similar petition by Ron Park and Mr Ron's got a further petition thereafter which he's not speaking on in child court reform it may be that the committee wishes to consolidate these in the future however I do think there's some issues here that we need to try and get some information back from obviously the Scottish Government the Lost Society, the Family Law Association Family Need Father Scotland about their views on the petition so we can start doing some work on this but clearly the management of the petition is first of all committee's views whether you wish to follow that course of events or alternatively we could defer a complete consideration of this until the 11th of November when we are looking at Mr Park's petition again so that's the two main courses of action that I would suggest you do in terms of how you manage this individual petition could I get first of all views from the committee on which course of action they wish to follow that's the first would do some work now or the second we defer everything into Mr Park's petition comes up I think we should do some work on this at the present time I think we need to as you've suggested write to the Scottish Government to seek clarification on what the legislation is intended to deliver the Lost Society of Scotland's views would be useful Family Law Association Families Need Father Scotland could also suggest we actually write to women's aid as well because I think women's aid have commented in the past about access rights and equally I think it might be useful to write to the Children's Commissioner to seek the views of it because we are talking about in the best interests of the child and really while this may be a dispute between parents about access we need to be in mind we have to put the child first in any decisions that have been made so it might be useful to get a comment from the Children's Commissioner on this issue I think particularly I think that Mr Park raised this at this petition is that I think there's some suggestion that if a parent can't get legal aid and therefore can't get legal representation is that a breach of European convention human rights that might be worth getting some view on that? I fully agree with my colleague John Wilson about trying to do some work on this just now but also including I agree with what's been mentioned so far but also including I'm not sure if we've mentioned social work Scottish Council for Social Work to ask that advice as well David Torrance I fully agree with the recommendations Thank you for that Angus MacDonald There's no harm I don't think in seeking clarification from the Scottish Government just now however and also contacting the other bodies already suggested but we'll wait for the consideration of the other petitions later on Give that to Jackson Carlaw content I think that As you've heard we're going to pursue your petition and we'll keep you up to date with all developments Obviously in future if it is scheduled you're welcome to be in the gallery and hear the proceedings but obviously I know that you'll probably have to take time off work which is probably an expensive way of doing things but obviously we'll keep you up to date with the development and thank you very much for coming along and giving your presentation I was obviously your personal experience in the court but thank you very much for that I know you've got a petition after that and if you wish to stay in the gallery you're very welcome to do so but if you have to leave we totally understand that and I'll suspend for one minute around Mr Ronald to leave his position I've missed the rush hour traffic to get back to Glasgow Can I just say thank you to everyone for allowing me this Thank you very much The committee were on the fourth and final new petition 1528 again by Mr John Ronald on child court reform members have not by the clerk, the spice briefing and the petition the committee may wish to consider the petition and the spice briefing and agree what action to take I mean the possible actions again are we make as I said at the previous petition when we agree to consider the petition alongside PE1513 and that's scheduled on the 11th of November in doing so the committee might wish to encourage any organisation individuals who wish to comment on the matter to raise the petition to write to the committee prior to the meeting alternatively the committee may wish to consider that the issues raised in the petition are distinct from those raised by 1513 and they should be considered separately so again can I just ask guidance from the committee in which course of action I wish to follow John Willis content to hold off the issues of the rest of the committee our other committee members also content that we hold off until we can consider them separately so that 1313 is up again in November ok, thank you for that if I move then to agenda item 3 that's consideration of current petitions there are nine on today's agenda the first is PE1319 by William Smith and Scott Robertson improving youth football in Scotland I think members will agree that this has been a very very thorough and first class petition we agreed to ask the children's commissioner to do some work on this area there's a scoping paper in front of you I met the commissioner and I'm very impressed with the plan the work that's going to be carried out there if the committee agreeable the young people's commissioner will go away and do this work and report back at future meeting is that agreed? thank you for that the next petition is PE1460 by Susan Archibald on behalf of the Scottish Parliament members of a note by the clerk again I think this is a very very good petition we did a lot of work on this one my view now is that we should close the petition under rule 15.7 on the basis that the location and details of the new national service for chronic pain have now been confirmed is that agreeable? thank you very much the next petition is PE1482 by John Warmersley on isolation in the single room hospitals members of a note by the clerk and submissions I know Alex Ferguson MSP had a strong constituency interest but he wasn't sure whether he could attend today can invite contributions from members but I would certainly recommend that one possible option is to consider the petition again once the Scottish Government's review of research and single bed accommodation hospitals is complete the next petition is PE1497 on behalf of Ceno to Tesco on supermarket expansion on local high streets members of a note by the clerk I know that Patrick Harvie MSP has a strong constituency interest but he wasn't sure whether he could manage today and also Sandra White similarly has an interest in this issue she's currently on justice committee and perhaps put her apologies for our inability to attend I mean I would see it really we have two real choices today I think we can either close the petition on the basis that we have explored the issues far as we can within the policy areas devolved to the Scottish Parliament or the other option is that we ask the local government regeneration committee to consider the petition as it is seeking in the context of its scrutiny of the community and parliament Scotland bill I think that my preference personally would be for the latter that we refer this to local government regeneration in that they are doing some work Angus MacDonald I would certainly be lost to close the petition as it does have some merit particularly when you look at the claims that major retailers are regarded as running roughshod over independent retailers in certain areas so I'd certainly prefer to see the petition referred to local government and regeneration committee to allow them to to allow them to incorporate the petition in the work that they're currently doing for the community and the Parliament bill Patrick Harvie has just arrived I know Patrick Harvie has a strong constituency interest in this particular petition Do you want to address the committee on your support for the petition? Thank you very much I apologise for making it here by the skin of my teeth I'm aware that this isn't a full evidence session on this particular petition for the opportunity to speak briefly simply to put on record once again the strong interest that I'm sure members will be aware of right throughout the country but including in my own region in Glasgow about this matter even in the few months since the committee last considered this petition I'm aware of even more small independent businesses businesses with their roots in the local community that they serve who've gone out of business in areas where supermarket expansion is continuing this flies in the face even of the stated intentions of encouraging retail diversity and vibrant diverse high streets and shopping areas I think this is the one issue that I would encourage the committee to take seriously the conflict that exists between the stated objective of treating all applicants equally and the objective of encouraging retail diversity in the same way as equality policy that treats everybody equally does not achieve genuine equality for people people have different needs the same approach I think should be taken here treating all applicants equally regardless of the identity of the applicants regardless of the nature of the retail offer that's going to change and regardless of the what we know very clearly about the economic impact of supermarket expansion does not achieve the stated planning objectives of encouraging retail diversity and I do encourage the committee once more to look as creatively and open-mindedly as possible at that case You probably would have missed my comments in terms of options I mean basically we boiled it down to two one was that we closed the petition on the basis that we've explored issues as far as we can but the other one which might be more appealing to you is that we refer the petition to local government regeneration committee because it's doing work on the scrutiny of the community empowerment bill Do you have any particular views Mr Havie on those options? If those are the only two options then you perhaps won't be surprised to learn that I would encourage you to refer the petition on the on-going mismatch between stated objectives and what is happening in the ground not just in Glasgow but around the country is one that I do think requires further consideration Thank you very much for your comments Bring in Jackson Carlaw I'm not a complete curmudgeon I'm happy to support the latter of the two options but I would just and so doing said I'm doing so for two reasons one is that I was aware that the petitioners felt very strongly we hadn't done justice to the considerable volume of work that they had produced not all of which as you know from my previous contributions I'm entirely sympathetic to supporting the conclusion that I would wish but I would just also add it to give balance of course to Mr Harvey's intervention that I too in the time since the last committee have met I'm aware of areas in towns in Scotland where the opening of a local convenience store and what was otherwise a high street that was derelict has led to the prospering of additional new businesses adjacent to it and therefore I think we have to be very very careful that we don't mount some unsubstantiated crusade against local convenience stores that are being operated by multiple nationals simply for that fact alone for that I would never accuse you of being communge in this in any such way can I ask other members for their views we've certainly had two members happy that we refer this to the local government and regeneration committee and could I John Wilson as a member of local government and regeneration committee you need to declare an interest in the sense of work it's not extra work what want to be is convinced that the bill that's currently going through community empowerment bill would be sufficient to deal with the issue that the petitioner has raised because the thing is that what we've been told by submission after submission is that planning cannot deal with this issue alone and it's whether or not the community empowerment bill in the section that's raised in terms of our notes today would be sufficient to allay the fears of the petitioner and other communities around Scotland and it's really and the other issue for me would be is how the Government themselves would view any additional powers or any issues within the community empowerment bill that they presented could be amended to take account of the concerns that are raised in the original petition the other issue for me convener is I'm not sure whether the Ellie Harrison original petitioner has responded to any of the issues raised by the responses we've received as a committee because it would be useful to have the written submission from the petitioner just to indicate what the views were to date in terms of responses and how they would perceive they would take the issue forward but as I said I would have and I think the original request was to look at the planning legislation and to find out how local authorities and their planning powers could actually tackle the issue of the footprint being made by some of the major retailers in their town centres and whether or not there is sufficient as the community empowerment bill currently stands to allow local authorities and others to reasonably raise objections or concerns about a major multinational site themselves in the corner of the high street or in the centre of the high street where all the petitioner hasn't responded and I agree with you that it would have been useful to have had that information. I think the complexity around this petition is that some elements of it are reserved to competition policy and that has made it quite difficult. I do accept the points that you're making around planning. I'm actually quite encouraged by the community empowerment bill. I think that there's some sensible ideas in that particular bill that it's not going to be a magic wand for this particular petition. I just felt that because local government and regeneration were examining this there might be a good opportunity for them to do a bit more work. I know that the petitioner has done a lot of work in evidence and I wanted to make sure that that evidence was before another committee and I had the ability to look at it again with fresh eyes. I can only say to the committee that if that's the wish of the committee to pass it on to the local government and make further consideration I can tell the committee the timetable for examination of the community empowerment bill is very heavy and to add a reasonable consideration of this petition in amongst what we're already considering may be difficult to give full justice to the petition that's before us. As I said, if the committee members are so minded certainly the local government and regeneration committee will take it on board but is this whether or not it has the time because we've already diverted under dates, under evidence sessions in relation to the work ahead. So it would be one of those areas where just by all means pass it on but don't expect to be full, detailed examination of the issues raised in the petition. Thank you. Members who perhaps haven't spoken on next steps where they can confirm what their views are on this. David Torrance? Right. I have spoken I did say that I would be loath to close the petition as it does have some merit particularly when you take into account major retailers are regarded as running rush-on over independent retailers in certain areas of the country. For the reasons that have already been mentioned by Mr Harvey and other members of the committee, I contend that I recommend you. We are agreeing by majority that we refer the petition to local government and regeneration committee so that they can look at this as part of the scrutiny and community that is coming along and making his submission and for the petitioners for all the work that they have done on this particular issue. Thank you for that. If I could just move on to the next petition it is PE150 by Stewart Houston, OBE on behalf of RSPB Scotland on the Golden Eagle as the national bird of Scotland. Members have a note by the cleric on the submissions. Can I invite contributions from members? We have received what I regard as a most commendable further letter from the minister who has reiterated, I think, very sensibly the point which I think I tried to make at an earlier submission that there has in his mind not a proven case regarding the general adoption of national symbols for the stat and the next thing or that secondly were there to be one for a bird that there is a proven case in favour of any particular species. So that I would really very much suggest given that we've now had two letters from the minister in which he has very emphatically made that point move that we close the petition. Now I note that there is some consideration as to whether or not what might validate a subsequent opinion in all of this is a broader consultation. I have to say I'm not myself persuaded that the RSPB or the resource thereby is adequate. We've just, if you like, had a public consultation that engaged 3.6 million people. I'm not altogether sure that one which manages to engage a few thousand is nevertheless representative of anything and I am concerned that the fundamental point that the minister makes twice is the debate we have about the general adoption of national symbols and in some ways I think that there has to be some agreed conclusion about that before we then start consulting on what they might be and what they might be within what they might be. I take the point that you're making, Mr Kalam. I'm not sure if you're suggesting we should have had two questions a few weeks ago in the referendum about national symbols. Clearly a missed opportunity. Having said that, RSPB are a very large if not the largest membership organisation and I personally have a very strong view that they are a very good organisation if they were going to carry out a consultation or if the organisation had asked to do it but I know John Wilson wants to add his comments as well. I declare my membership of the RSPB in this debate and I think that Mr Carlaw while paraphrasing of the minister's letter I think that the minister says in the letter that however I am not convinced that a persuasive case has yet been assembled in favour of Scotland having a national bird or for the golden eagle to be that national bird then goes on to say that you will be aware and the procedure that was devised for the scots pine designation that process did involve some public consultation and I believe that involving the public would be a vital part of any future procedure. As the convener has indicated RSPB currently is one of the largest membership organisations in the United Kingdom if not Scotland and I think it might be useful to keep the petition open and contact the petitioner to seek the petitioner's views on the minister's letter with a view of asking whether or not the RSPB would be prepared to carry out a full consultation process along with their members and other organisations to determine whether we could have the designation of the golden eagle as a national bird. We are minded convener that the debate on the scots pine while the minister did originally indicate that he wasn't in favour of the scots pine did after consideration in a member's motion to the Parliament agreed to the designation of the scots pine as a national tree. Issues in the past that have been raised and the minister has taken a view relented on the original position and I think it might be useful to write to the petitioner in this instance and seek their views and whether or not they would be prepared to carry out the necessary consultation as outlined by the minister. Can I ask other members to write to Mr Carlaw later if he wishes to respond? To continue the petition and as John Rawson has indicated to ask the petitioner their views on moving forward. Thank you for your recommendations. I am certainly open to clarification but as I recall I think it was set to the scots pine because the photoshoot commission himself did conduct a consultation so I would be happy to go along with John Rawson suggesting that we contact the RSPBE to see if they are willing to undertake a consultation and then bring it back on. Jim Eadie? Jim Eadie, I have no strong views on the subject. Jackson Carlaw, do you wish to come back on? I do because this is what the minister said and I think maybe we have to write it into the record. There is also a wider discussion to be had about national symbols generally what do we want of them and what other types of national symbols might we want to consider. I recognise that we now have a national tree, the scots pine however I feel that choosing these symbols is more than just the environmental or ecological question. It was for this reason that I expressed the hope that we might get a more rounded picture by asking other parliamentary committees for their views. I have done this and received some responses but I would still prefer that we find a way of getting a considered view from the Parliament about the value and purpose of national symbols and hopefully avoid the potential for ending up with national symbols proposed and designated on what is essentially an ad hoc basis. I think that that is a very clear recommendation which goes beyond the scope of the immediate petition which is why I believe that it should be closed. I think that it is an interesting argument and consideration for Parliament to have but I think that it goes beyond the scope of this petition which is why I, of course, we do. I understand that I am trying to get some consensus because there is a base letter to the majority of the committee wanting to defer and ask RSPB for their view. If we wrote to them and they said that we can do a consultation not just on our own members but for the Scottish public overall and that we can do it under a conservative timescale and the Government is happy with that, is that not something that we could facilitate and if we get that positive note back we can discuss this again at a future meeting. I am in the minority. I do not see how that addresses the issue as to whether or not we want these national symbols or not which seems to me to be the minister's caveat prior to the consideration of adopting any particular symbol for any particular thing and I think that that does go beyond the scope of the petition. Even if the RSPB were to say yes, we would, I do not see how that really gets us beyond the minister's consideration as to whether or not we want national symbols. Sure. Can we put one final plea in terms of trying to get a consensus? If they do come back in a positive note about running a consultation and the Government is happy with the type of referendum that they are running, then I think that that would resolve the issue that you are raising. That is what they did with the Scottish Parliament. Once in a lifetime opportunity. I am conscious of time. We probably could keep this going for a while until Jackson Carlaw's opposition does. I do understand that. I think that the majority of the committee wants us to defer this petition and ask RSPB whether they are able to run a consultation. Once we get that back, we should check with the Scottish Government what their views are and then take it from there. I move on to the next petition. It is PE1501 by Stuart Graham on public inquiries into self-inflicted and accidental deaths following suspicious death investigations. Members have a note by the clerks' submissions. I invite contributions from members. John Wilson. I am minded as part of the recommendation to refer this on to the Justice Committee and allow them to consider it in terms of their on-going considerations of other issues. I would be minded to refer it on. I ask other members further views. Members agree both with John Wilson's points. For the record, if members are agreeable that Mr Graham has put a lot of work into his petition and has put some very strong comments back. If we could just quote one line, he said, Mr Graham said that he is dismayed by the lack of support for change in our system and feels that social justice has not applied to families of the bereaved. He feels very strongly about the issue and I would welcome the views of the Justice Committee on the petition. Are members agreeable or have members got a contribution? Not in any disagreement. I have had constituents who have found themselves at odds with the system. In passing it on to the Justice Committee I do so with a considerable amount of sympathy for the issues underlying the petition. The decision of the committee is to refer the petition to the Justice Committee. We should also highlight the evidence that we received on the petition. Can I move on to the next petition? It's PE1509 by Lee Wright on Aberdeen to Rennes rail travel improvement. Members have been up by the clerk on submissions. I raised this issue last time around to raise a couple of points with the Scottish Government, particularly about the dualling of rail to Aberdeen and to Glasgow Edinburgh. The lack of dualling causes real problems in the rail infrastructure in the Highlands and Islands. There has been a note back from the Scottish Government about this. Mr Lee also makes the point about the lack of electrification north of Edinburgh and Glasgow. I don't suggest that we do anything further but note the points that Mr Lee Wright made in a very, very good petition. I would suggest that we close the petition on the basis that we have had a final response from the Scottish Government. Is that agreeable? The next petition is PE1512 by Bill Chisholm on amendments to the freedom of information Scotland Act 2002. Members have a note by the clerk on the submissions that could invite contributions from members. John Wilson? The petitioner quite clearly I am just trying to find the comments. It raises a number of issues in its submission regarding the comments made and the responses we received. It raises once again the fact that the freedom of information commissioner responded to this petition before it actually went public on the Parliament's website. Clearly, in my view there are some issues that are still outstanding in terms of how freedom of information requests are dealt with. I think that the petitioner was highlighting initially the accuracy of the information provided by the body where the information has been requested. I do not think that we have had that fully answered in any of the responses that we have received today. There are still issues about trying to ensure that when a freedom of information request is made that the information is accurate up to date and is relevant to the request made by the requester in relation to that FY. I am not sure how we take it forward because clearly the Scottish Government, the commissioner and others are content with this current system and whether or not there is any scope for taking this much forward. I am not sure. I hear what John Wilson says but given that the Scottish Government has said that it does not propose to take it forward and agrees with the Scottish Information Commissioner having raised the issues and explored them I would have thought that if the Scottish Government is not prepared to take the matter forward then there is no further progress we can make and in those circumstances whether I find it desirable to have a response to the petition leads me to the view that we have no further course that we can pursue and therefore require to close it. I read the Scottish Information Commissioner's annual report and there are certainly very strong comments about the failure of some public bodies to respond on freedom of information so I think that the information commissioner is very clear on this problem area but I take Jackson Kyle's point it is again a very good petition it is just a case of I am not sure if I had a very strong steer from the Government on this one. Members agree that we close the petition on the basis that we have taken the petition as far as we reasonably can do so but also thank the petitioner for the excellent work that they have done in this particular area. Thank you for that. The final current petition today is PE1463 by Llorian Cleaver on effective thyroid and adrenal testing diagnosis and treatment. I think that the petitioner is in the gallery, and members have a note by the clerk. Elaine Smith has had a longstanding interest in the petition and I can ask if Elaine Smith would like to make some brief contributions to the committee. Thanks very much, convener. I want to just start by thanking the committee for their continued interest in this issue and in the petition and I note the response that you have received from the listening exercise would focus on the needs and experiences of those with thyroid disorders, so I think that that is to be welcomed. I also note that the paper that you received from the petitioner, Llorian Cleaver, has though reiterated that there would be value in a committee inquiry even running alongside the exercise that the Government is undertaking. I wish to continue to add my support to that suggestion in terms of a one-off session with Sine. I think that it is up to the committee, obviously, whether the committee think that is useful, but I understand from the petitioner that the healthcare improvement scoping report, a recent report that was published, points to thyroid function guidelines being based on poor quality evidence. The session with Sine might be helpful as well in taking forward that issue and, as the petitioner notes in her submission to you, there is more and more new evidence coming forward so I think that that is extremely interesting. Thank you very much for your continued interest in these matters. Thank you, Llorian Smith and the petitioners again for this very, very thorough petition. As members can see, there is a suggestion that we have a one-off evidence session with Sine, the Scottish Intercollegiate Guidelines Network, which I'm sure you're all aware of. Are members then agreeable that we go ahead and have that one-off evidence session? Thank you for that. We'll obviously involve the petitioners in terms of letting them know when the meeting is and, obviously, Llorian Smith wishes to attend that. That should be very welcome. That's the end of our formal public business. We're now going into private session for a very brief item and just have a few minutes for the gallery to clear.