 Aloha, I'm Joshua Cooper and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio on Honolulu tonight. Today's episode is we're looking at inherent dignity and inanimate rights. Universal Declaration of Human Rights preamble for peace and worth for all in our world. And I'm very honored to be joined by Ben. Ben, how are you doing today? Aloha, Josh. It's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me. And it's particularly good to be able to do it from Honolulu. It is an honor to have you with us today. And we're really excited to be looking at the preamble and why it is so important as we consider the world we live in today. Could you share with us why you began to get passionate about human rights and the imminence of the words in the preamble for the planet that we face today? Yeah, thanks, Joshua. When I first heard that you were exploring each of the articles of the Declaration, I wanted to jump at the opportunity of taking on the preamble. Not only does it lay the foundation for the rights that follow, but it speaks with real candor and humanity and even a beauty that is really rare to come across in internationally negotiated agreements. And to pull the preamble apart, there are three things that really stand out for me. The first is that you can really sense that the trauma and suffering is still live for the drafters and for the international community. They use these really emotive words like outrage and barbarous and they talk about the collective conscience, which really gives strong cues for the sentiment at the time. Secondly, it makes these groundbreaking universal statements on equality, on dignity, on worth. It talks about inalienable rights that apply to the whole human family. And thirdly, and I think with great wisdom, it makes this clear link between human rights and what it refers to as larger freedom and to peace and conflict prevention. You know, that's really important because it's that recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal inalienable rights of all members of the human family. They call it, that's the foundation, freedom, justice, peace in our world. And that's what's so crucial. And as you pointed out, that disregard and contempt for human rights results and barbarous acts, which outrage the conscience of humankind. And that's really what's so crucial and we see that. We see when the world met in 1945 in San Francisco and they created the UN Charter, they said, everyone everywhere on this earth has rights that we're born with those. And that governments are duty bears that they have to uphold these. Can you share a bit of your experiences that you've been able to put this preamble from paper into making it different in people's lives around the world? Because you've had many different unique experiences as a diplomat, as a human rights advocate, maybe you could share how this preamble is actually so crucial to so many communities around the civil society. Yeah, thanks Joshua. I mean, that's a really broad question. And as you say, I've been fortunate to be able to work on it for a number of different angles. A part of that has been working in negotiation of resolutions, an important part of it has been working with local communities. But I think one of the pointiest aspects has been the human rights investigation work, particularly in areas afflicted by conflict. And there were two further parts of the preamble that I wanted to underline. And one of them is exactly the point that you just went to. And I've got the language in front of me. So I don't misrepresent it. But it is that statement that the disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts that have outraged our collective conscience. And I think it's important in this 75th anniversary year to ask the question, do we still hold on to that outrage? Are we fatigued in the device of international community that we see now? And this is something that I've long wondered doing investigation work, particularly when you look at situations like Syria and Yemen that are protracted, that have presented some of the worst atrocities in modern memory. I had a period as an investigator with the Syria commission of inquiry. You look at the conflict in Syria and you have the use of chemical weapons and prohibited weapons. You have the deliberate targeting, not only of civilians, but of healthcare workers, of hospitals, of other protected sites. Now these are without doubt barbarous acts. And the following question is, what are we now these years prepared to tolerate? I want to keep trying to return to that. Do we still hold that same sense that the drafters of the UDHR did? Is that outrage? Is that refusal to accept atrocities still live or has it been diminished? Has it been worn down over the decades? No, it's an excellent point and it sort of reminds me of the conversation that's happening upstairs with Governor Green to saying there are some horrible people that do things that are beyond the scope, but that the wider circle of humanity still cares. And he, as human rights advocates, peacemakers and defenders of really an earth democracy have to stand up in solidarity to challenge them. So I think it was a great point of, is there fatigue? And then the other side is, is there a beyond belief commitment to challenge it at every corner? A life without rights is a really worth living. And it gets to that point. And I really appreciate the way you said that we have to really think about it. Like 75 years ago, we're looking at that and we're at the halfway point of the sustainable development goals. And listening to the youth upstairs, we think about who are the champions today for human rights? Which NGOs do you see that stand out who are really making a difference in property and creating those declarations as more and more declarations coming? Since the UDHR, we see those coming up first and children, women, and then conventions and then committees coming to implement that. What do we, who are some of the champions that you see to be able to create a culture of human rights? Yeah, I mean, you raised an incredibly important point and that is just how many people were disenfranchised at the time that the UDHR was adopted. You had 58 member states, decolonization had not yet taken place in full force. Women were not represented, marginalized communities, minorities were not represented. So you have this compelling statement of universal rights and inclusion through a process that really wasn't genuinely representative. And that goes to the point of the importance of youth voices now. And we're seeing that space is being created for youth now in a way that it wasn't. The same goes for marginalized communities and minorities. There's that awareness now really in that poetic succinct phrase, nothing about us without us. We're seeing that applied, taken from the disability, rights movement and now applied to so many communities because that's exactly the way it has to be. I think that civil society does have a particularly compelling voice now because we're seeing what I describe as diplomatic fatigue. You'll see a lot of prominent countries and very capable diplomats who have been long engaged in negotiations and efforts, speaking of a collective fatigue right now, how difficult it is to push through changes, the sense of division that they're feeling in so many different UN bodies. So it is the responsibility of civil society to remind our representatives and these negotiators of what should be driving their efforts. And that really has to bring us back to the spirit of the UDHR, to avoid these barbarities, to avoid conflict which inevitably has a disproportionate impact on civilians. No, it really does bring the point to the North Star for us all to share, to reflect on because when you look at what the world was at in 1945, human rights does create a floorboard that will say, we won't accept anything below this but then also ignite the dream of what's possible in our prison that we should not spare to. And even beyond what they thought at the time, it is something we do here at the UN General Assembly at the high level, opening week and that sustainable long-term summit. Some people said that this halfway point had happened. Would we still be able to get language cut in 2015? And what you shared of course is, if we did open the UDHR, would we have gotten the students' language to pass today that we can say is important? So I think that's important. The preamble really does frame what matters most to humanity. And it also gives us that moral architecture of what we should aspire towards and how we should look at that. What for it's inspired to get involved with human rights, to dedicate the career to social. Yeah, I was in law school and was struggling to find an application of the law that I found important and compelling. And I was lucky to take human rights as an elective and it offered that application and that meaning. It required a command of the legal system and an understanding of international law. But it allowed an application that could hold authorities to account. It could empower communities. And there was that framework and structure in place. We of course got the International Bill of Rights with the two covenants following the UDHR and we have this extraordinary architecture that has developed not only through the treaty body system but organically through the creativity of bodies like the Commission on Human Rights and the Human Rights Commission. And we see this extraordinary array of commissions of inquiry in ours as expert investigative bodies to look into situations. And these are all examples of invention and invention by diplomats in partnership with and often under the pressure of civil society. So that was my entry point and that really has been what sustained my work. Now admittedly I've shifted a lot in different roles over the years. I see myself as something of a human rights mercenary and that I do want to be able to work from different perspectives and aspects for the experience of it. But I also feel that each additional experience allows me to have an extra level of understanding and hopefully an extra amount of effectiveness in the way that I approach issues and situations. And really this, I sort of need to think it really is intention, innovation and then implementation and putting those three together because it starts with the idea and that might console society that may be in front of the necessity of having those rights abused to saying we don't want to serve everyone else. And then an initiative such as the creation of a declaration of convention with a committee that then implements that's an implementation where people want to make sure that we're not human rights defenders of we civil society or enforcers with the people in government to make sure that the government sees those aspirations that also these rights recognize in international human rights. And I also remember being in those first classes where you see how this is where the big question are being raised. This is where what matters most is mobilizing to change direction to be something more than it is today. And it's always been that way. And as you talked about the youth, it reminds me even the youth in the exact place where I'm coming to turn the law. And saying we should have a case that the international court of justice on youth in future generations and rights. So it's, what is exciting is UDHR in a way is that seed and from that we seem to go down and we've always seen these amazing branches of what people have done. And you really did summarize you've been in that experience of the commission on human rights that existed for six decades and that human rights council. And we all know that shifts of place and everybody was true with the council leader. Governments were hoping there to be less procedures, less proper careers and inexperienced working groups. But as we can see, as we're now in the 54th session of the human rights council, it's exciting to see what has evolved and how it's kept moving. What are some aspects that you talked about commission and being free? Some initial reflections that council's been created and how it's been created. Some of the landmark achievements of the council. Well, look, I think you go back, you look at the special procedures. What I mean, what a phenomenal act of creativity to be able to come up with a decision to appoint experts on themes and on countries to go out there, collect information, report back to the council. Same with the commissions of inquiry. And I think the real value there is that there needs to be this loop of information. There needs to be that direct connection between civil society, between UN country teams and expert themselves, allowing these diplomats and these international forums to make informed decisions to then empower these experts and these bodies to go out and do more focused, more impactful work. And that ideally that virtuous look just continues and continues. Now, it's not always the case. Sometimes we see fractures. We have to acknowledge the fact that delegations are often overburdened and don't absorb the information in ways that we would like, but there are little ways to modify and to pressure and to improve. And while we have time, I do wanna jump onto one further aspect of the preamble that I think shows true wisdom on behalf of the drafters. And to read that section of it, it's essential that human rights should be protected by the rule of law. If, and I'll say communities, are not to be compelled to have recourse as a last resort to rebellion against tyranny and oppression. And this goes to impunity. This goes to the clear message that where human rights protections fail, people will be compelled to rise up to claim their own protections. Now, we've seen this through the sweep of the Arab Spring and we see this so clearly now in the situation of Myanmar are people who had access to an emerging democracy and who has spent two and a half years now resisting the brutal attempts by the military to seize back power. Now, it's failing in that attempt and that's because you see this extraordinary country-wide social movement that is based on human rights and that uses the language of fundamental freedoms. So again, we see this lived experience and wisdom of the drafters coming out 75 years later in a very live situation. It is, you really do see that inherent dignity that's mentioned, that quest for democracy, rule-based society, and then really that aspect of global advocacy, of understanding how it's all interconnected. And so when you look at that, it's direct action and diplomacy. And it says when people are denied those rights, then they have the right to use those rights that are existing, right to thought, freedom of expression, coming together, changing the government. And as you said, looking at that example of Myanmar, it was an emerging aspect where human rights seemed to be tasted and chewed on and they were devouring them to know what was possible and then to have a government once again trying to never let go of that power. And we see that around the world. We see indigenous people standing up for their right of self-determination, Common Article One of the Twin Covenants. And that's, I think, what's also so powerful is that that's what's in the UDHR. It recognized that aspect of rebellion. But I also really appreciate what you called that loop. And that loop, we're always trying to get tighter. It's a loop of liberation, it's a loop of love where we can hold those governments who aren't doing what they should a little bit more accountable to end that culture of impunity and make sure that that faith and fundamental freedoms is able to be expressed by people on a daily basis in their own daily lives. And as Eleanor Roosevelt said, where do human rights begin? At home, on the ground. And that's where I think you had the unique experience of helping people on the ground where many people would not maybe want to go. We might be comfortable in Australia or in Geneva, but you've been able to actually make sure that if this culture of human rights that's created at the UDHR, that everyone has those rights and can attain those. Yeah, that's really beautifully put, Josh, I agree. And I think a strong takeaway for the youth of today is that they have permission to have a sense of rebellion to take on these causes. Not only is it essential, but it was foreseen in the UDHR. So I think that could be a very important takeaway for our youth and their activism. It's true, when you think about that, it's that rebellion. And which NGOs or civil society have you seen having a great impact from the community to the global civil society to promote and protect human rights that we could see as true champions these days? Yes, rather than identifying individual NGOs and organizations, I'll talk to a spectrum. And that's to say that all these different kinds of organizations have an important place. Now, working within local communities, being constitutive of local communities and being able to speak to issues and efforts with an authentic voice is extremely important. That authenticity, I can't underline enough that they're the messages and the voices and the experiences that have to be shared with the international community and with these international forums. You also need the organizers, the alliances, the bodies that can pull everybody together to collect and collate these experiences and to convert them into shared points of advocacy. And then you need the organizations with the technical expertise, the ones who understand the mechanics of the mechanisms who have cultivated the relationships with the diplomats, who know how to engage in technical points of procedure or how to draft language in particular ways that will have an impact that will articulately capture the main points and that are feasible, that are likely to be political, feasibly, yeah, feasibly achievable efforts that will allow a little step until the next effort. So have a great big broad plan and strategy that nail down those incremental steps and make sure that you have the precision and expertise that's needed to deliver it. Because ultimately it's about making it as easy and as compelling as possible. Do it in a way that's going to take hold, do it in a way that's going to be light lifting for the people who are gonna have to sell it. And then use that as the basis for the, and the foundation for the next steps. It's true, when you look at it, it is those three layers. It's at the community with directly impacted people to make sure they're able to share their story. It's at the capital level with public policy and planning and then it's also at the global level where we are still chiseling away and in making sure we have the strongest global institutions for all humanity. And I think that's one of the brilliance too of the UDHR is that we're saying every country could stumble and we've seen superpowers and different states stumble but no matter what there's that global standard that you still can't fall below no matter what happens in your own nation and that we can continue to create that. And you see that with the special rapporteurs, I know we weren't able to get, the first time we tried a special rapporteur on climate, we're able to get a special rapporteur on human rights and environment. And then most recently, we now have a special rapporteur on climate change and human rights. So it's coming up with what we see as the world but using that framework that's really captured so well in the UDHR preamble to then promote and provide that vision for where we can go as we see what matters most regarding human rights. Maybe you could share a bit, what do you see as the important issues or future of human rights building on that preamble? Well, it's all in there, isn't it? It's all in there. And we've seen so many important issues tackled by subsequent declarations, conventions, covenants and other instruments. I think a singularly important issue at the moment is working on unity. Is finding ways to have reasonable conversations to accept that there are differences but more importantly, there are common grounds. So I think the language of the declaration sets out that common ground but even more importantly, the language of the preamble is a cautionary tale. It needs to always be a reminder of what worldwide suffering looks like. And as you said, to sit down today and attempt the adoption of a UDHR would be impossible. To look at the emotiveness of the language, the very real hurt and trauma that was shared collectively by the international community gives a clear example of how much agony there was at the time. And our primary effort should be to avoid ever returning to a point of such collective agony. It's so easy to look around the world and see places where there is intense agony, where there's horrendous suffering, where there are barbarous acts right now. As an international community, we need to address those but at the same time we need to make sure that they don't escalate and that we don't put ourselves on a path that's going to be a trajectory that mirrors exactly what the founders of the UDHR tried to avoid all the way back, through 1948. Yeah, you really are summarizing the spirit of San Francisco but also that promise of Paris when they met in December 10th in 1948. And it does remind me of really what we're looking at, avoiding that agony, making sure that people don't have to feel that pain that we can prevent pain in people's lives. And I remember being at the Paris negotiations on climate change and it being December 10th anniversary day and trying to remind them how the human rights message is relevant for the climate justice movement today. And as we look at the future going forward, maybe you could give us some closing thoughts on what matters most. Because as I see it, the peoples of the UN affirm their faith in fundamental human rights and the dignity and worth of the human person in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life as we put about larger freedom. But what are some closing thoughts that you have as we go forward? What matters most is the human person, the human person and the community in which as article 29 says so beautifully the full expression of their personality as possible. So in everything we do, we always need to remember that there were people at the end of this conversation, at the end of this negotiation. It is about individual lives and it's about the communities that they are integral members of. It really is, it's coming together and that's really summarized as also that common article one of self-determination to pursue economic, social and cultural development based on one's own unique values and to determine one's political destiny to make sure that we can all collectively appreciate these rights and make sure that one other aspect that was brought up that solidarity, that spirit of Ubuntu that if my rights are not realized and your rights aren't realized and I can never achieve my rights fully. And we really thank you Ben for a lifetime commitment to human rights and thank you much for joining us today.