 Welcome to CN Live. This is Joe Lauria reporting from London. We're standing in front of the Ecuador Embassy. We're on June 19, 2012. Julian Assange sought and ultimately received political asylum. He stayed here for seven years. It was in this building and from this balcony above us where Julian Assange addressed his supporters that were aligned across this street many days during those seven years. Here Assange announced that the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention had ruled in fact that he was being arbitrarily detained and that the United Kingdom should release him and actually pay him compensation. That was a triumphant day for Assange. Of course the British government ignored that ruling. It was also here in this building where Julian Assange worked running WikiLeaks. This was the headquarters of WikiLeaks for seven years and Julian also lived in a very small room inside the Embassy. He had health problems while he was here. The British government said he could leave anytime he wanted to to get an MRI for a bad shoulder to get dental work but they would arrest him if he left. He was only wanted at the time for skipping bail, a very minor charge. But of course we knew that in fact he was here in this Embassy because he'd lost the case at the UK Supreme Court to be extradited back to Sweden and his fear was, has now been verified, his fear was that Sweden would then extradite him onward to the United States. So Julian Assange stayed here, wanted Sweden prosecutors to come here to interview him. They refused under pressure from the British government, as we know from the reporting of Stefania Maurizzi, the town journalist. Ultimately Sweden did come and interview him at the Embassy. There was never any charge against him of rape or anything else. Those charges were dropped three times and Julian remained in this Embassy working until the change of government in Ecuador. The government of Rafael Correa gave him the political asylum where he legally stayed inside this Embassy even though the police shortly after 2012 threatened to come into the Embassy and arrest Assange which would have been a major violation of the Vienna Convention. That never happened but when the new government came in of Lenin Moreno, Moreno within a short period of time cut off Julian's access to the world. He had no longer had internet access. That was in March 2018 and that's when Julian Assange stopped communicating with the world. Effectively he could no longer run WikiLeaks even though he was still legally and at that time safely inside the Embassy but conditions were worse. The staff treated him more and more poorly. People who came to visit him were being harassed. They had to give their telephones. As we now know it was here that the CIA ultimately contracted with UC Global which was originally hired by the government of Correa to provide security for Julian Assange but that was later turned into a way to spy on Julian Assange including his conversations in this building with his lawyers, with his doctors, with friends who visited him. All of that at some point later on became a 24-7 live feedback to the CIA. So Julian Assange's rights were violated in here not only by the UN ruling that he was being arbitrarily detained but now that we know from testimony in the UC Global case in Spain and also from Yahoo News reporting that while Julian was in this Embassy the CIA seriously discussed kidnapping him from here or poisoning him. When Stella Morris at the time now Stella Assange was visiting with their first child she was warned by one of the staff members here at the Embassy not to return because they were stealing nappies out of the rubbish to try to get DNA on Julian Assange. It was not safe for her to return and she did not return. So Julian stayed here until that day, April 11, 2019 when the Ecuadorian government in fact gave permission to the British police, the London police to march into this building to arrest Julian Assange. Assange resisted being arrested and he was literally dragged out by about six cops. Down these front steps that we'll show you in a moment is where he was brought out and put into a van with smiling policemen, laughing policemen. He was driven off to Belmarsh prison in the United States that day unveiled the indictment that WikiLeaks had said since 2010 was being prepared with a grand jury but the Obama Administration refused to indict him. Then Vice President Joe Biden said on Meet the Press television show in the United States NBC in December, December 10, 2010 that they could not arrest Assange as they could prove that he actually stole the documents but if he just received them from a source which was Chelsea Manning they could not arrest him, they could not indict him and in fact he was not indicted. It was the Trump Administration after the 2017 release of Vault 7 which really infuriated the CIA particularly the Mike Pompeo, the then Director of the CIA that led to these discussions to kill or kidnap him which of course never happened. Julian's rights then were taken away by Moreno. He was ultimately arrested in the US, unveiled that indictment that same day. He's been since that day in April 2019 in Belmarsh prison, high security ever since he's gone through the extradition process to lower court. The lower court ruled in favor of the United States on every point of law but the judge Vanessa Beretsa found that extraditing Assange to a terrible US prison in the mental condition he was in, highly suicidal, was oppressive and she denied the extradition, the US appealed, went to the high court. The high court agreed with everything Beretsa said but they believed assurances by the United States government to the British government made after the decision by Beretsa that they would actually treat him humanely, would not put him in a high security prison and would give him adequate health care. We do know that if he goes to the United States he will be held during pre-trial detention and during the trial of the Alexander detention center we know from Yancy Ellis' testimony during the extradition hearing that is no doctor on the side of the ADC. Now Julian Assange suffered a mini stroke on the first day of that high court hearing so in fact he would not have the kind of response from her medical team that would be necessary to try to prevent a more damaging episode if that should happen. Julian Assange's case after he lost in the high court they appealed to the Supreme Court the Supreme Court denied that hearing it was sent back to the lower court that originally decided not to extradite Assange but this was a formality they sent the extradition order on to Priti Patel the home secretary of Britain she is now sitting on this there have been submissions made by Assange's team there have been petitions from Assange there have been a whole slew of human rights organizations press freedom organizations that have been appealing to Priti Patel not to extradite Assange but she could make that decision at any moment we are filming on Sunday and she has until Tuesday to make that decision we understand we will of course report on that when it happens but that's not the end of the road legally for Julian Assange that decision can be appealed Stella Assange said at a cinema opening that we attended earlier this month also they can appeal those points that Vanessa Baraitz or the lower court judge agreed with the United States on which in deal with things press freedom first amendment in fact this is a political offence which goes against the US UK extradition treaty the fact that he was spied on by CIA that the CIA then seriously discussed killing him the state of his health all of these issues can be brought to the high court which cannot depending on what they decide that's where we are right now waiting for Priti Patel's decision and how the legal team of Julian Assange will respond now let's walk over to the entrance of the embassy and we're going to politely knock or ring the bell it's a Sunday we're hoping that it's quiet if there's someone there and we'll let in we're going to ask whether we can go to see the room where Julian Assange lived the conference room where he met many of his guests including his lawyers and doctors where he was indeed I'm standing now in front of number 3 Hans Crescent this is where his support is this is where the police van was a very narrow street where they arrested him that night before nights before we knew something was up there were unmarked cars here Cassandra Fairbanks who was one of the witnesses for Assange in the extradition hearing was here in London and went up to clearly they were a police that was scoping the building out there was also an incident around that time earlier where they was an attempted break in here that we colleagues has confirmed it failed let's go upstairs I'm pressing the perception button I don't see anyone but let's see Embassy of Ecuador there is no one at the concierge desk it looks pretty dark in there but maybe we can get somebody who previously worked in the embassy they're deadly serious about storming they're also deadly serious about doing it before Keter makes an announcement they don't have time and that person who used to work in the Ecuadorian embassy was Fidel Naraz who was the consul in 2012 and worked six years in the embassy and we're very happy to have Fidel join us now on CN Live Fidel thank you for coming to speak with us about the years that Julian spent at the embassy tell us how you first met Julian Assange what that early period was like in terms of him getting applying and then getting the asylum from the Ecuadorian government of Rafael Correa at the time thank you thank you for inviting me it's a pleasure I met Julian before he came to us for asylum in my embassy I met him a whole year before 2012 I'm in 2011 my government approached WikiLeaks regarding the cable gate you must remember that at the beginning of the cable gate WikiLeaks was publishing the cables in agreement with different media around the world basically in each country they choose certain media in order to partner the publication and my government was really concerned about the media that were publishing those cables in Ecuador they were basically picturing or misinforming we had that feeling about the whole cable gate relating to Ecuador so we approached WikiLeaks basically saying we would like to see everything we would like to see everything to be there for the public to see is that possible and it was I think we were the first country to have all the cables available accessible that did not imply any compromise or any negotiation of any kind with WikiLeaks they were basically understood a request and that was the beginning of a relationship between WikiLeaks but it was also the beginning of a personal relationship between myself and WikiLeaks and Julian himself so that was obviously key a year later when all the doors were closing for Julian's freedom and liberty and so the last resource for him was to look for protection and he looked for the protection of Ecuador and I was happy to help him with that but there was quite a long process before he was given asylum it's not correct oh yes, yes basically according to the international legislation on political asylum the country that receives the request he has to look at it, he has to analyze and he has to verify that the claim of persecution is justified and that's what we did that's what we did we knew quite a lot about the case already because that relationship with Julian but since the day Julian arrived he would normally stay inside the embassy that was nearly two months period when Ecuador looked at every claim basically approach every country involved in the case Ecuador approach Sweden approach the UK approach the United States and I understand as well in order to analyze the case and at the end we took the decision to grant him political asylum you understood your government at the time that he was being persecuted that would he be endangered and unfairly treated if he were to go back to his own country maybe or to Sweden certainly if he left the embassy he needed the protection, you concluded that really evident he was totally evident that he won't have a fair case in the United States that the reason he was being persecuted judicially, politically was the journalistic activities that humiliated the United States basically his request did not have anything to do with the Swedish case it was all to do with persecution from the United States and as we saw many years later the claim of a secret of pseudo secret grand jury cooking charges of espionage for those publications was to be totally right totally true the same grand jury in Virginia state was known as the espionage court was cooking those charges that he's facing now right well not long after he entered the embassy there was quite a dramatic scene where the police were threatening the British police threatening to enter the embassy in what would be a violation of the Vienna convention to arrest him did he have asylum yet or was that in those couple of months period when he was still waiting to get it and I believe you were on the scene because in the film hacking justice we see you there when the police are outside can you just describe to us when that happened and what it was like well that happened the very day before we granted the asylum in fact the British I think they had intelligence that Ecuador already made his decision and the threat of raiding the embassy I think he was to dissuade Ecuador of taking that step so that was a formal official threat they wrote what they called that was a letter basically saying we will be entitled to go into the embassy yeah if we understand that the embassy is not being used for the functions diplomatic functions that go with the Vienna convention but that was against the Vienna convention they were basing that threat on British legislation but the written threat was also physical they surrounded the embassy with many many policemen police cars they basically stopped the traffic during the night they really wanted to intimidate us at the time we did not have any security guards at the embassy they were just diplomats the ambassador myself and we clicked steam but we did have plenty of video cameras inside recording every movement there and I think it was good that they realized that it was going to be a huge huge mistake to do that not only against the Vienna convention not only breach of international legislation but they will put in danger every British embassy anywhere if they go after foreign embassy why not in other countries somebody can raid the British embassy so they step back from that and next day Ecuador signed an agreement they knew that would have been their last chance to try to deny the asylum we are bringing in now Emmie Butler Emmie is one of the leaders I would have to say here in London of the pro-assange movement the support system Emmie when did you first get involved with the Julian Assange movement and when did you first start going in front of the embassy already there was a popular support for Julian Assange in London all through his extradition case going through the British courts already during 2010 and 2011 I did not participate in that at that time I had a young family and I was very much based at home but I was active online in various forums social media and following the case very closely I did also participate going around to see Julian speaking on occasions when he was in London but the crucial point that made me realise how absurd the situation was and how this month's life was in danger when he sought political asylum inside the Ecuadorian embassy I come from a country Greece with a very turbulent history I was born in 1917 the middle of a Greek 7 year military rule which was brutal my family was unfortunately targeted and my parents suffered our apartment was often trashed looking for materials, flyers I grew up with a sense that democracy is something very precious and that we cannot take it for granted so when I saw a publisher someone whose work I applauded from the comfort of my kitchen applauded all the amazing revelations we heard about wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was actually seeking political asylum to protect his life that resonated with me very strongly and that is when I started naturally going outside the embassy from the 19th of June 2012 I joined others continuously till the 11th of April 2019 I would go on a weekly basis others were there 7 days a week as the years went back the solidarity vigils reduced in numbers but they were a constant week in week out and the basis of it was solidarity with Julian Assange and keeping the flame alive and being witness of what was going on in the streets around and over the years my goodness what have our eyes seen what have we experienced myself and my colleagues starting with Jim Curran who registered the solidarity vigils with the local metropolitan police commander and my wonderful wonderful Clara Campus friend and comrade who was the backbone of the solidarity vigil over the years wonderful Tom and others mostly Latin American and people who had arrived and lived in the UK with political asylum themselves and understood what was going on formed a small team of people who faithfully and patiently stood there in solidarity so you arrived the day he went in and you were there the day he was arrested yes and I was there every single week the atmosphere it was intimidating because of the very heavy presence of the police in particular the first few months the day that Fidel described where the police nearly invaded the embassy it was the night between the 15th and the 16th of August 2012 that night I stayed up till three o'clock in the morning watching online because there were some people there transmitting the events and I called my mother to beg her please come and look after the children so the following day I could join and this is what I did on the 16th of August once mum was at home looking after the kids I went outside the embassy and I saw it was going hundreds and hundreds of people but I counted with my own eyes 120 Metropolitan Police officers in uniform 120 they were preventing us from going close to the embassy they had blocked the road and we all waited on tender hooks for the announcement of the Ecuadorian government which came around midday just before a group of Ecuadorian people started marching up and down in front of the embassy with banners and in support of the government and in support of the sovereignty of this nation and what was being done to it and there about half past one it was announced that during Assange should be granted political asylum jubilations from the crowd jubilations and since then the permanent vigil that was stationed there slowly faded away as the months went by but we remained and we started getting organized with banners, posters flyers engaging and observing what was going on the police was a constant constant presence at all times all through the years from the 19th of June 2012 till the 15th of October 2015 the police was uniform police and you could easily identify them for the first six months had posted a communications van as they called it opposite the embassy with an extendable two meter antenna which we always wondered what was it doing there obviously it was for surveillance purposes up to eight uniform police were there all the time in their usual attire but at times they were joined by the rapid response team which were policemen who have the right to carry the guns so often they were joined by them lunchtime mostly bringing them their lunch at other times we had a very large number of presence of vans parked on hands crescent around the corner one after the other often full of police so the surveillance and operation of the police that we experienced and witnessed varied over the years until the 15th of October 2015 the uniform police disappeared and we know it was replaced by undercover police I will stop here for now Fidel let's go back to the incident that didn't happen on 2012 when the police didn't invade they ensued then what could now be called some good years relatively good years to join as good as they could be being confined to the embassy and the police were able to get to work as the editor in chief and publisher of WikiLeaks he had many many visitors there of all types celebrities activists family of course and friends and you got to be quite close with him tell us before we talk about some of the more unseemly things that happened later what were those years like when he could have dinner with wine at that table when he shared what happened later yes we have to differentiate very clearly two periods during Julian's stay one under the government of Rafael Correa those first five years basically and then when the government changed everything changed in Ecuador and as well at the embassy so that first period was basically continuing protection for Julian political asylum does not mean at all that you lose rights on the contrary you have the right protected so the conditions in them the logistical conditions inside the embassy were always very very difficult because it's very small apartment you don't have access to fresh air you don't have much natural light coming in Julian has compared it as a spaceship because we were always with artificial light inside the embassy and as I said the small apartment overcrowded at some point Julian was allowed to have visitors of course was allowed to perform his work he had very small spaces private spaces for himself and for his work and it was a respectful relationship between the Ecuadorians and Julian mutual respectful relationship with diplomats and all the Ecuadorians the exception always was with the private security company that worked for Ecuadorian government the Spanish security company so that was always a bit uncomfortable even for us for the diplomats but otherwise yeah as much as we could we share occasions with Julian birthday celebrations during those years the staff was being so welcoming or going away gatherings as much as we could we tried to make it comfortable for Julian and yes indeed during those years Julian did a lot of interviews conferences he edited some books and WikiLeaks kept publishing basically he was very active he was never bored I think he is a work colleague he only works but I think that was helping him to cope with the situation keeping him busy and active yes what about his physical health he had some issues with his teeth with the shoulder maybe other things now the British would not allow him to leave without being arrested but well that was tricky as well because there are only certain issues that could be that a doctor could see in those premises just the basic stuff but for some things he needed to he would have to be for example scanned by equipment, by medical equipment that cannot be taken inside the embassy basically he had something with his arm that could never be looked properly because it was impossible to do that and yes we know that the British won't allow him to do a medical visit and then come back again inside the embassy or some dental care was not possible to perform inside the embassy it was tricky that's true I'm going to ask you of course about the change in government and what it meant for Julian including the UC global company but I want to ask you about some moments when Julian stepped out on the balcony to make announcements one in particular that's well known is when the UN working group on arbitrary detention ruled that he was arbitrarily detained that the British government should free him and even compensate him was at that moment anyway a victory and Julian went out on the balcony how often did he go out there and was there a lot of discussion in the embassy whether it was safe for him to do that was that his call or was the embassy involved and when he could go out on the balcony and how often he did that well he did that only exceptionally in those seven years literally three maximum four times he came out to the balcony and made a speech but obviously needed to be coordinate with the embassy and with Ecuador not only logistically but politically after all he was a guest in the embassy and yes soon after he was granted asylum the security company was hired by Ecuadorian government and all the logistics for his public appearances and his security was obviously something that the company took charge outside the embassy inside the embassy yes they were hired exactly for that they were hired by the Korean government to protect Julian later it turned dark let me go to Emmy for a moment Emmy you were outside the embassy were you there the day that he made this announcement that the UN Group on Arbitrary Detention were you there the day he went out with Noam Chomsky and a few other times when he had pretty trumpet moments out on that balcony I was there for all the speeches that he made I was not there with Noam Chomsky that was just he took a step outside just for the purpose of taking a photograph a photograph with Chomsky but it was in February 2016 when we with great anticipation understood that the decision would be announced a decision that the United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention had already taken at the end of 2015 but they were obligated to first communicate this information to the relative parties and then make a formal announcement in February and it was announced and Julian came into the balcony it was the 5th of February 2016 and we were there we were there and we heard him speak every time he made an appearance everybody just rushed to the scene we anticipated we want to see him we want to make sure he was alright because we're very concerned always about his welfare and well-being at the same time there was a very heavy presence of media who were not always were not always on his side on that particular occasion he was hackled by a Channel 4 reporter it was shameless absolutely shameless and we were there to protect him and also show the world and the world's media with our banners, with our presence but there are people who care about this man and are willing to defend this organisation and his work and that's why we rushed there we put up our banners we had music we made small distributed flyers, posters and heard him speak always very moving to see him but it was a very rare occasion that this happened we were thrilled we were thrilled to hear the news but yet again every single time there were good news about his case he never benefited from it and that was a proof of the political nature of his incarceration and his being under siege inside the embassy that's how it felt every single political institution or diplomatic institution used to protect his life was always sabotaged by those who controlled the situation which was the UK administration and the US administration in conjunction I was speaking with Fidel Navas who was the consul at the embassy in Ecuador when Julian Assange got political Solomon, Amy Butler and one of the leaders of the Assange support group that was outside the embassy and outside the courtrooms later on Fidel, things started turning dark around March 2018 with the new government of Lenin and Julian Assange was cut off from the internet he could no longer do his work as before and things really started turning badly even inside the embassy I believe you weren't in there anymore but what do you know about that decision to cut him off and how Julian reacted to that and how things started turning in a really bad direction for him with the political change in Ecuador everything changed basically Ecuador stopped protecting Julian and the new government was making everything possible to end the asylum to begin with they tried to break Julian in order for him to give up voluntarily and basically they tried to harass him to the point that he will give up obviously he was not going to do that I was still in the embassy when the government cut his communications and basically isolated him I witnessed myself when he was told that he was not going to have internet connection he was not going to be able to make phone calls to use his mobile phones and he was not going to have any visitors allowed set for his lawyers to begin with we didn't think that was going to be a long term decision we thought that maybe a couple of weeks but that period extended for nearly seven months and he left the embassy already so I did not experience the full isolation but I have very good information how it was it was tough it was tough for him when the government basically realized that that was not going to work they changed tactic and they imposed convenient conditions for his stay in the future so they were basically conditioning the asylum to those domestic living conditions that he needed to respect the government was basically deciding who can visit or who cannot visit Julian and basically what he can publish or not publish it was it was banana peels on the floor in order for him to fool and end the asylum and that's what happened at the very end the government took the cues that Julian was interfering with the affairs of friendly countries to Ecuador and that was in breach of the political asylum with this no sense we had already I think agreed the handling of Julian directly with the United States and with the British of course tell us then about there was a lot of friction between Julian and some members of the staff even with the ambassador things got worse do you know about that well I was not at the embassy during that last year basically but all the staff was replaced the diplomatic staff new ambassador, new diplomats who came with the mission to harass Julian and to expel him and I understand there were frictions and the security company was also replaced and there were frictions as well obviously that's a key part of the story obviously but I want to ask you why did Ecuador's government change this policy do they act on their own in your opinion but was there reasoning for this why did they change one change towards Julian attitude towards Julian change of politics basically they were they needed to please the United States the Korea government stood up against the United States pressures and Moreno wanted to please them gave up and Julian was part of that obviously the security company was hired by the Korea government but then it had a radically different job when Moreno came to power we now know from testimony in UC Global that trial in Madrid that there was a secret agreement at least secret to Julian Assange and the rest of the world between this company and the CIA and that tapes were brought from the embassy to the CIA and then ultimately there was the 24-7 live stream and they actually taped him with his doctors and even more significantly with his lawyers you had no idea about this at the time you were there right, is that right Fredon? No, no we never knew for certain that they were spying for their party we were always uncomfortable with with their behavior of the company we always saw that was unprofessional and too intrusive with everything with everybody particularly Julian and his visitors of course we thought that was one of the reasons why the company was replaced because it was already unbearable but the company who came later was in worse in terms of the husband and the spying on Julian so we didn't know the Korean government for certain didn't know that the first company, UC Global the Spanish company started to secretly work for the Americans and you need to understand that these security companies are kind of mercenaries they will work for the one who offers them a better deal yes unfortunately that's what happened and there's ongoing judicial cases against the company yeah there's always been a disinformation campaign against Assange going back to 2010 even earlier dealing with the Swedish case but there were also all these stories coming out about Julian's bad behavior inside the embassy that he was making himself an unwelcome guest that he was doing things with the cat etc etc tell me about your experience of Julian's conduct inside the embassy no as I said the relationship between Julian and the embassy staff the diplomats, the Ecuadorians was always always very respectful one mutually us towards him, him towards us despite the very difficult logistical conditions that we had there there were exceptionally some incidents with the security guards from this private company and as I said these security companies are kind of mercenaries in order to justify their work they produce misinformation about the inside of the embassy portraying Julian as a conflictive person portraying Julian as a person who needs to be disciplined by the security company so in order to justify the need of them they produce these reports which were by the way confidential reports sent directly to Quito to the Ecuadorian intelligence agency who was the contractor for the security company who by the way was not king on Julian either yeah so the embassy staff not even the ambassador we didn't know much about these reports when at some point those security company reports were leaked we all realized that there were no sense that they were untrue for and at some point we didn't pay many attention to that because they were written by those hardly literate security guards very no-sensical reports but fortunately those were the base for those stories about conflictive Julian inside the embassy disrespectful Julian untidy Julian which is mostly untrue or exaggerated misinformation yeah now the attention continued to increase in the embassy breaking at some time in 2018 into the embassy and then of course we lay up to the arrest but before that we learned first in the extradition hearing because of testimony from two witnesses in the UC global case in Madrid and then later from this Yahoo news report that the central intelligence agency actually discussed trying to kidnap Julian from the embassy possibly poison him that an embassy staff member warned Stella Morris at the time not to come back because they were stealing DNA from the babies nappies what did you know about this or how did you react to hearing all the stories about CIA plotting to maybe kidnap him from the embassy that you worked in it's always shocking to hear and to realize that they were going to those extremes but otherwise it wasn't much surprising for me because I never trusted the security company we always knew that we were surveilled and and surrounded by intelligence agencies the British and the Americans and basically that was just the confirmation that all our suspicions and fears were basically justified on those testimonies the security guards told us how the Americans for example had laser microphones aiming to the embassy windows to listen to us so yeah it was shocking but not as much surprising for me Emi back to you in those days leading up to the arrests on April 19th it became increasingly clear that something was happening there were these unmarked police cars people inside parked right in front of the embassy it seemed like any day would happen and then it finally did tell us what you experienced being in those days leading up and on the day of the arrest what did you experience first of all just to explain that since 2015 when the uniform police disappeared and was replaced we were aware of what was going on the surveillance outside the embassy a flat opposite where we stood at number 18 Hans Kressen in the first floor apartment constantly had its windows open whether it was rain or shine and soon attracted our attention we noticed that in that building loads and loads of people were coming in and out furthermore we noticed that an electricity company was digging up the pavement to supply high voltage to that particular building exclusively to that building and you kind of trying to figure what was going on we had no idea but we were thinking it was the British police the British undercover police having an operation from there and of course we could see the camera the surveillance cameras all over now building up to that time it was evident and we could hear that the Ecuadorian government's new position its realignment with the US foreign policy and its collaboration it was evident and we kept hearing that any day now Julian Assange was going to be his political assault terminated and he was going to be surrendered to the police we tried as much as we can to hold vigils out there already the March 2018 we had asked Kieran O'Reilly who is a Catholic worker to come and keep vigil as much as he could in those crucial days when his internet was cut off and he accepted to do that and we supported him 24-7 by during the day having people support his vigil so he was never alone but after that when he was allowed to visit we returned to our regular vigils and coming up to March 2019 we intensified our vigils and tried as much as we can to keep constant watch but it was impossible impossible to know when when the event would take place we were talking what are we going to do what are we going to do and we all decided whatever happens we're going to follow him wherever they're going to take him if they're going to take him to police station we'll go there if they take him to the courts we'll go there and we just watched in horror events unfolding in front of our eyes without having any sort of control over it when he was taken there was no one from our regular vigil holders present which was a great disappointment to us because we were unable to intervene which we would have if we were there but of course we must understand that the moment of his arrest was carefully planned and just like Julian Assange will survey so were we and so we still are it's a very difficult situation to find yourself in wanting to do so much more from what you're capable of doing as the human being but we watched and witnessed and even after his arrest we went out there and we stood witness as inside the Ecuadorian Embassy his personal belongings were being photographed we watched the flashes of those cameras going over again and again and again every single every single item that he owned we saw the new Ecuadorian Ambassador with his helpers inside talking and we appeared through the windows to see what they were up to they threw some of his personal belongings to the street in a dustbin one of us tried to recover part of his belongings but it wasn't possible he was intercepted it is a very traumatic event but it was a very eye-opening experience and it only made us more determined to continue our support of Julian Assange and to try to do what we can as simple citizens no more nor less to defend him and we have seen since his arrest the support swelling swelling around the world it's a great hope that eventually he will prevail as long as his health allows him as long as his health allows him to survive physically he will be victorious it's the only way both you and Fidel followed very closely the legal process that ensued after his arrest we did 67 we organized about I was counting the other day 64 actions outside Westminster Magistrates Court Old Bailey High Court 64 actions solidarity actions outside we followed him we were faithful to what we said we were going to do and follow him where he is and we continue our solidarity videos outside HMP Belmarsh where he is and elsewhere in London How would you assess overall the way this political it is a political process I meant to say a traditional process and maybe that was a good for it and slipped there but it's taken place what kind of processes Julian had what are your overall views of how it's gone for him and where he stands right now on the eve of the Home Secretary deciding whether to sign the extradition order or not I think his legal team has done an excellent job in putting out in the public domain and in the historic record the achievements of WikiLeaks and the persecution against him from the establishment putting all of that out in the public domain what remains is for people who are involved in political processes to take up the button and run with it already the campaign has done tremendous steps forward gone are the days gone are the days it was just a bunch of people outside the border in embassy and he's in a circle trying to protect him gone those days now you have the Council of Europe Human Rights Commissioner on his side every single human rights civil organization in the west and beyond on his side a very clear understanding of what is at stake all these are achievements achievements of everybody involved in defending freedom of the press defending human rights and defending him Julian Assange as the publisher of WikiLeaks what is evident to all by now first of all that Julian Assange was right was right from the very very beginning and second that this case will only be victorious in the political arena which where it belongs I can only speak from myself and for the public the people who have stood beside me hundreds thousands of them and hundreds of thousands around the world to say we do what we can we play our part politicians now have to play their own part and we put them in front of their responsibilities about how this case is going to end this case is of a start proportions because Julian Assange is a publisher he received classified material published it in the public interest and a vindictive government of the United States with their allies here in Britain have teamed up to punish him in the way any tin pot dictator would do around the world any totalitarian society that throws away a journalist who's published inconvenient and damaging information about them it's encouraging that you say that the awareness of this case and what is at stake has grown so much with press freedom and members of the public we hope those who want Julian to be free that pretty patelles feel in that pressure Fidel before I ask you about your take as you were also in the courtroom we saw you in February 2020 queuing up to get into the courtroom was there any maybe you don't have an answer to this but is there any anecdote that you could tell that has never been told about Julian that showed his character something that happened in the embassy that you witnessed I have a couple but I think I need to keep them for the moment for for the book it's been written okay it's gonna be out soon this this year but as I said despite the conditions those five first years Julian was able to to work to do what he enjoys more he was suffering for certain but he gave interviews he published he received people from many parts of the world that was one of the things I must value from this experience the amount of people from all over the world that came to express solidarity with him and with the country that was protecting him that was a great great experience for everybody in the embassy and in particular for me that was so close to Julian and I need to mention that Julian became Ecuadorian as well in fact strictly legally speaking he is still Ecuadorian there is a legal process in Ecuador that hasn't finished yet they are stripping him out of the nationality and I as Emily said I am confident as well that he will prevail he will prevail on this fight but that victory in my opinion is not because the system was fair to him is not because the politicians realize that being unjust to him is because they felt the pressure from the public from people like Emily and all the support group from people like you, Joe and all the journalists who always campaign for him is because his family, his partner his lawyers of course all the people who don't give up don't give up I know that it's not just about him it's about basic human rights for everybody Fidel last question for you the United States and Britain are very fond of talking about defending press freedom around the world and the United Nations for human rights abuses those nations almost always are ones that they have some strategic or geopolitical feud with whether they're full enemies or just adversaries they're always talking about what others are doing often in developing countries where there's no due process there's no rights for journalists and thrown in jail etc were you surprised by just how the United Nations against human rights when they accuse other countries of these things and they seem to be doing having done this themselves I was a little bit surprised when I look at what happened in the court during those years I had higher expectations from British judicial system in particular seeing how the defense have reflected every single allegation against Julian seeing how clear this is a persecution political persecution it was for me obvious that they needed to refute the extradition that they needed to deny the extradition and they haven't done so they haven't done so so yeah I'm surprised to the extreme that they can go yeah we'll give you the last word if they want to be seen as a democracy as they claim that they are a functioning one in the world what is their behavior in this case say about that even there is no separation of powers between the judiciary and the executive power in this country because you have a high court that relies on diplomatic assurances to influence this decision diplomatic assurances have got nothing to do with the law or with case law it has everything to do is a diplomatic political tool and so they accept a political tool and upon this they rest their decision on the other hand the political powers pretty per tell from having written to my Member of Parliament who replied when I asked about her decision he said pretty per tell is going to give due respect to the British judiciary so they are passing the back one from the other they are referring to politics and then they refer to judicial authority but actually the two very clearly work in conjunction with the other so you have a revelation in front of our eyes about the corruption of our democratic system and what we hold dear in this country when the judiciary and the political executive are acting hand in glove and there is no separation of powers beyond the aspect of press freedom beyond the aspect of human rights we are understanding that the way this case is progressing is corrupting for the entire democratic system that we rely on so it is a very very urgent call to action very much like Nils Meltzer the former United Nations special report on torture said is a call for action for people to take action everyone what we can do no more no less in putting our footprint in this very very important struggle and path towards reassuring and re-establishing the rights the democratic rights that generation upon generation of people that have come beyond before us have sacrificed their lives their blood their sweat to achieve for our societies this is what is at stake is whether we are able to preserve those rights for the future or we are willing for these rights to disappear disappear for us and for our children so I encourage everybody find the thing that you can do to support Julian Assange to defend him and to finally secure his freedom and do it that's all we can do thank you thank you Amy Butler and Fidel Narvez for joining us on CN Live and we will be back soon when Pretty Patel makes her decision