 Hi, welcome back. Yet another amazingly special session to come. I just wanted, we're gonna do very brief introductions and move into some scene work and then widen it into discussion. But I wanna, it's a particularly special combination of people, one of whom many of you know well, who's my close colleague since the moment I got to Georgetown was here a year before. I was as part of opening this building and shaping the Theater and Performance Studies program here, Professor Maya Roth, who specializes in feminist plays and cross-cultural adaptation and new work development has worked closely with Heather Raffo over many years with our own faculty member, Christine Evans. She stewards the Jane Chambers Prize, really important prize in our field of which our guest today is a recipient as is Christine Evans and others and she has a new co-edited volume, lesbian and queer plays from the Jane Chambers Prize and a second one coming cross-cultural plays. So she is going to be the perfect person, of course, to be in conversation with the incredible Martina Mayock who was the recipient of the Pulitzer Prize for Cost of Living in 2018. Also the writer of a number of other extraordinary plays largely about the immigrant experience, the play Queens and the play Iron Bound which was done here in DC in a memorable production at Roundhouse Theater. And the play we'll be engaging with today is her play Sanctuary City which is in development for a production at New York Theater Workshop next season. So I'm gonna invite I think first Maya to the stage to just briefly set up the Sanctuary City scene and then we'll move forward with Maya and Martina. So please welcome Maya Roth. I'm adopting a new best friend in order for me to stay in the country. So I doubt that the guy is the partner of my life along the way. So I'm working on six, four, seven, seven, and I'll be one, two, three, six, a bare stage for this reading when you hear this new member of the fire escape. I see that. Can I come in? What time is it? I have a test tomorrow first period. No one's gonna, no one ever calls the cops. Hold on. It's freezing. Hold on. It's freezing. Hold. I don't wanna wake your mom. It's freezing. So I climbed up. Where's your coat? I know it's late. Where's your coat? It's freezing. Oh, fuck it's freezing. I know. She's going back. What? She's going back, back. Hold on the manager's looking at me. I don't know what to do. Meet me outside. I don't know what to do. What happened? Can't wait to get away from us. Your neck. One day, I'll... Did you see your neck? It's at home. What? My coat, it didn't have a chance to grab it. Can you close the window of my arm? Yeah. Never wanted to hurt someone so fucking bad for him to hurt so fucking first opportunity I get, man, I'm out of there. Well, is your mom okay? Can I get under your blanket real quick? Yeah. It's cold. Better? Yeah. Good. Can I cross with you tonight? What happened? She's going back. Who? Back home. My mom. She's going back. She's afraid of staying in the country. There's some shit at work, she said. Boss keeps taking money from her tips because he can, what she's gonna do. Report it to who? And she's afraid what happened to Jorge is gonna happen to her. And so she's going back. And, because of September. Keep your voice. You think I'm in the middle of here? Now anything can happen. Anything can happen to her now. Like she didn't say that, but so she's going back. What about you? She said I have to decide. Decide what? If I wanna stay or go back. Yeah. Did she give you a date? Now. She'd like to know now, like right now. Soon, real soon. I'm 17, she says. I've almost grown, she says. So she says, I can just decide what I wanna do. She didn't wanna wait till you finish school? No. But it's just one more year. No. You're senior year. No, she doesn't wanna wait. I've been here 10 years. 10 years we've been, that's half my life. More than half my life. I got everything here. Yeah, like my family's there, but everything from over half my life, that's all here. Why would she just go? I don't know what to do. What's that all about? She came here for you. Why would she be going back without you? Did something happen? I don't know what to do. But I knew she'd. Oh. From my arm, I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm sorry. It's okay. It's fine. I'll say it's mine. Then what are you gonna do about next year? Can you graduate? If I stay. What about college? I can't go. Why? Unless I pay for it myself, which I can't go. Well, what are you gonna say at school tomorrow about your arm and the neck? I'm not going. Yeah, yeah. Probably you should maybe don't. What are you gonna say at school about your face? I'm not going. Yeah, yeah. Probably you should maybe don't. What are you gonna say at school about your eye? I'm not going. Yeah. What are you gonna say at school about? I'm not going. Yeah. Yeah. Probably you should maybe don't. Just last time this shit happen, remember my eye? Mr. Weekend saw Sami to the nurse, called my mom, said I fell. Then she freaked the fuck out at me I came home. She said to say I fucking fell, whatever. Said to say I always fall. I fell, which I think they'll buy once. I can bring you the homework. Sam sick. The flu? I can bring you the homework. Sam sick. The flu. You flew last time. A cold? Yeah, just say a cold. I'll bring you the homework. Sam sick. A cold. Something longer. Right. Need a few days this time. Chicken pox? Yeah, say chicken pox. I can bring you the homework. Sam sick. Chicken pox. We've got it ready. Measles? Mumps? Pox mumps. Stomach bug? No. Why? No, that's nasty. No. Lice? No. Crabs? A cold. Yeah, I think it's fine to use a cold again. A cold. A bad one. A really bad cold. Say Lice. I can bring you the homework. Sam sick. The flu. Are you sure you just don't want to tell? She's scared they'll send us back if we find out what's going on at home. Who? Or just her. She's scared they'd separate us. Who would send you back? America. They wanted to investigate if they liked CHEP. She's using a fake social security for years. Everyone's more, you know. Yeah. Because of September. Or maybe they put me in some kind of, some place for kids to separate us. I don't know if she even knows specifically what to be afraid of, but she is. She's scared. There's that place on Fishkill Road in South Kearney that the place where Haley was died got sent to. Or that's just for guys, that place, I think. No, I don't want to get separated. But for her to go to Fishkill Road. It's just for guys. But where do they send women? They got to have somewhere to put the women. Where do the women go? I don't know. Further, I guess. I don't want to get separated. I don't want anything like Fishkill. I know there's people, even if it's just for guys. I know there's people there on Fishkill Road, behind wire. I see them. We drive by, and I see. There's barbed wire and people, and I don't want to go. You wouldn't have to go. That place is real, which is better not to talk about anything that happens at home. Better I stay, I sell, or have the food. Maybe it would be good to be separated. Not from my mom. No, but... She's never going to leave him. I think I have an ask. Do you want me to hide under your bed from your mom? It's okay. I can just jet right now, before she wakes up, if you need me out. It's okay, my mom won't care. I'll just walk around the neighborhood, go to Palos whenever they open, hang out there, eat some eggs. I didn't finish math anyway. You can just stay here. I've been coming by a lot. Well, so stay. Eat breakfast with us. Eat breakfast? Not usually, but I could. Yeah. We could. We could eat together. Yeah. I got eggs. Stay. Don't go. Then I'd end up just like her. If I stay in the country, I'd just be like my mom, doing whatever job. A shitty job. Whatever shitty job would take her just to fuck her over down the line. You went to school. Always scared. You did like all of school here. It doesn't matter. My mom brought me over and she kept me over. So? So when she overstayed her visa, so did I. But you were a kid. We were supposed to go back nine years ago. And you were supposed to know that? We were supposed to buy a plane to get up fucking eight. It doesn't matter. You were a kid. It doesn't matter. If they find out how long we've been here, we won't even be allowed to back for another ten fucking years. Don't go. I think we're sleeping together. We are sleeping together. I mean like together. I don't think so. Why the fuck not? Which, I can't go. But why? Because I can't pay for that. For college? By myself? Neither can I, but eight. I can't apply for aid. Why? Because I'm not supposed to be here. We came here legal, but we didn't stay here legal. We overstayed. So I'm a fucking criminal according to here. I could pay for school if I could pay for school. They'd like take my money. If I had, like happily. Listen, I could do a lot of things if I had money. I can't get aid. Scholarships. Can't apply for financial aid. Can't go. Your mom can't help? My mom is leaving. What about community calls? No. No, fuck that. You know how fucking hard I worked since coming here? Fuck that. I get better grades than fucking everyone in there. I work harder than fuck that. For real though, thank you for letting me stay. It's okay. Good night. Hey. Yeah. Thanks. All good. Yeah. Thank you. Anytime. Good night. We'll find a way for you to stay. There isn't one. We'll make one. I don't even know if I can even, my mother's working a full-time job for this roof and she has to borrow money from me sometimes. Coming home like half a person after work, exhausted. How am I going to do all that and school? How am I going to do that? You can live with me on mine. You don't even want to live at yours. Good night. Hey. Buenas noches. Good night. I can help you pay rent. What? On this apartment. I'm over here all the time. We sort of kind of already lived together. You're asleep. I sleep here sometimes so I should help. I can pay. For a year then you're gone. First opportunity you get, man. Just finished school at least. Then what? You'll keep working at the restaurant? Mopping floors? Washing dishes? Or shit. I could always go to work. They're not checking papers. I could just ship out with all the seniors still failing algebra. You're like a high school reunion in Iraq. What? She's going to leave him. We're leaving. And how are you going to help me pay rent? With my job. And how much you make? A hundred a week? You can't bank on varies. It varies but I'm there almost every day after school except Thursdays. Shit. I've come away with a hundred sometimes just on Fridays because of tip-out. Really? Almost once. Yeah. Almost. If things keep going how they're going on home I'll be at your place a lot. Really? Unless you don't want me to. Oh no. You're good. It doesn't look like anything's going to change so I'll probably be here a lot if you're like, have me. I'll make a key. So I'll contribute. That way you won't have to do this completely alone and you can finish school. You're sure? Make me a key. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I can do this. You can rent out the extra room. What room? For extra money. You can rent out the extra room in this apartment. When she eventually... I'm sorry. You're leaving? My mom and I. Where? Harrison. Like right on the border. How did she... She got naturalized. What? She's a citizen now. She was taken all the tests secret. She got a naturalization certificate, a restraining order, and a fucking moving company all secret. We're going to want to leave for work. We're going to pack up all our shit and go. When? Tomorrow morning today. Today in a few hours today. Moving guys are coming soon as he's gone. Then we got to pack up everything we can and haul that shit out fast. We got to be out there by four when he's back from work. Back to an empty fucking apartment. She had the shit planned for months. Fucking months. I can't believe it. We're finally leaving and I don't even have to sweep schools. That's great. I know. Congratulations to your mom. We're both moving. On becoming a citizen. I'm one too. What? She squeaked in right under the deadline. What are you... Right under the wire, because if you're under 18, if the kid's under 18 when the parents get it, then it gets transferred to the kid automatic. So you didn't have to pay none of those fees? Yes, not. Or have to take the test? Nope. I'm sorry. You're going to need help? With packing? You got guys. I know, but do you need more help? You got to pack up an entire apartment in how long? Yeah, but it's during school. So how are you going to... My mom's going to call and say I'm sick. She planned that shit too. So I'll say I'm sick. No, but you have to miss school. I didn't do the math anyway. Tomorrow then. You want to crash here? Tonight? One last time? Why one last time? I'll make eggs. And you can rent out the extra room. What? For extra money. You can rent out the extra room in this apartment. When she eventually... Sorry. It's okay. When? This morning. Did she say goodbye to you? I rode the train with her to the airport. Helped her carry her stuff. Or they don't let you wait anymore. Did you know that? They don't let you wait with your person that's going to board the plane. Because of September. So if you're not going to get on the plane they don't let you pass security. I watched it out the window. Watched for hours. Imagined her in one of them. Knew she was in. One of them. Flying away. Of course we said goodbye. We've been saying goodbye since she bought the fucking ticket. You want to crash? With me? At Mines? I don't want to go back there by myself. I know you got your new place now. I'd love to crash. She left a glass of water on the table. She drank out of it this morning and left it on the table. It'll still be there. It's going to be parts of her all over the apartment. Things she left. She wants me to donate. I don't think I can. Okay. Thanks. It's okay. There's so much to pack. There's so much to pack. I mean you could just leave them a mess, right? If there's shit you don't want. True. Shit you don't want to clean. Well you're never coming back. So leave that fuck a mess. I thought about pissing in his bed. Why don't you? We'll see how we're doing on time. Would you want any of them? What? Her clothes. Let's start with the clothes. Clothes. I can do that if you want to box the book. Books. I don't know how I could have done this shit alone, even with a guy. Tape. Yeah, I don't know how you could have either. Those guys are garbage. Get your money back. I'm going to miss this place. How could you miss this place? 12 years. Yeah, but... Longer live in here than anywhere else. Then longer than I know you even. What still? It's the place I was. I'm from here. Even though I was born and I'm from here. Wherever I end up ending up, I've gotten there from this place. Here. And it's closer to you than my new place is going to be. You don't have to if you... No, just... You sure you don't want to keep this? If you like it, take it. You sure? Take it. Thank you. But don't throw it away, okay? If you take it, don't just throw it out. Okay. Wear it. Like... Sometimes? There's another one. Another what? You just moved and there's already another one. Like a weed. Like a... At least he doesn't knock her unconscious yet. That I know of yet. I don't know, man. I can't seem to keep a dick out of that woman. That woman gave you life. So did yours and here we are. Can I crash? You still can't see? Don't you have a test tomorrow or it's late? There's so much stuff. You should have the life of stuff. I can't do this all right now. Come to bed. Would you want any of them? What? For clothes? You don't have to... No, just... You sure you don't want to keep this? If you like it, take it. You sure? Take it. Thank you. But don't throw it away, okay? If you take it, don't just throw it out. Okay. Wear it. Like... Sometimes? Good night. Hey. Yeah. It's okay. Thank you. It's okay. Thank you. Okay. No fucking way. Come on. It's racist. No, I'm telling you it's okay. It's so fucked up. So you'll do it? No. Come on. I can just write a note. I can forge a note. Just be glad they don't want her to come in. I'm calling. No. It's ringing. I'm not ready. You've heard her talk enough times. It's so racist. You've had like nine years of research. It's so... It's so... It's so... Tell everyone. Thank you. Bye. What they feed you tonight? Chicken Milanese. Nice. I brought some. What? What they feed you tonight? Penne Barcasa. Yes. What they feed you? Penne Barcasa. Yes. With chicken. Yes. Fuck yes. What'd you get tonight? Spaghetti. Oh. Okay. What'd you get tonight? Chicken. Yes. What'd they give you? What'd you get tonight? Actually, so they want us to eat family meal at work now, actually. Oh. Because people, yeah, because people take too much. Sure. Bring it home for their actual families. Right. You eat? Yeah. What's that? Chicken Milanese. Yes. What'd they give you tonight? Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot to grab food. What you didn't eat? I forgot. Oh. Okay. You hungry? There might be something in the fridge. Not much. You want me to run to the store? Why don't you check? Shop rights. Just check the fridge. Open the fridge. Check the fridge. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy... I'm sorry. I meant it as a nice thing. I know. I'm sorry. Where have you been? Out. Okay. Where have you been? Good night. Out. Good night. Where have you been? Where have you been? Okay. Where have you been? Can I get under your blanket real quick? Yeah. It's cold. Better? Yeah. Jesus Christ. Can you open the window? The fuck? Hello? Are you fucking kidding me right now? What? I can't hear you. I'm coming. You're gonna open the window? I'm coming and I'm opening it now. I'm exhausted. He's fucking essay. He's fucking homework. I'm just not... I'm not doing this fucking math homework. Fuck math. Fuck all math. They call me in the work tonight and what could I say? Now it's 2 a.m. I'm so tired I don't even... Why don't you just take the fucking stairs? Tradition. Well, you know... You're sick? No, I'm not... What's wrong? I'm telling you, I'm not doing well in school. I'm not doing well with any of it. Work? I can't keep up. I'm so tired. I'm so like... It's like I'm running in my sleep everywhere. All the time running. Use the key please next time. I got into school. What? I got in. Where? Boston. Scholarship? What's that? A bottle. The rest of a bottle. Celebrate? You can call me on that. My queen ask you to tell us just a window about what part... Sorry. Also I lost my voice yesterday. So this is what you got. Sorry. It... Like this... This and most of my other plays I started from a personal place. I was actually looking at another play. And couldn't... I was sleeping about three hours that for like a week working on that play. I went to bed at three in the morning and I kept thinking about something from a memory of mine. And I got up at three in the morning to think that maybe this is a play. I started taking notes and then I just realized that I was asleep. And I got up at three in the morning to think that maybe this is a play. I started taking notes and then I just realized I was right in the play. So then I had basically the first act by like 10 in the morning. And wrote it in three days in kind of a fever pitch and sort of have been... And I wrote it two years, two and a half years ago. And actually I thought I was like, oh, we're fine with the dreamers and DACA. We're good. This is going to be super relevant. And wah-wah. Yeah. And I want to thank our actor so much. Bobby. Yeah. So both of them have done really extraordinary work. Bobby has a relationship with this project and that he's been in a reading before. And Dahlia has just had a day of rehearsal, hours of rehearsal. So to both of them a huge thank you. So what is your... What have you in terms of a relationship to the project? Where does it most resonate for you? Either as an actor, as a person in the world. Yeah. Hello. Hey. Sorry. Yeah, it's more of a question of like how this play doesn't resonate with me. I mean, I can see from out here like a lot of... We know the immigrant tale, I think a lot. And I think when we did it in New York Theatre Workshop, a major thing that I kept kind of coming up with was I just saw my dad constantly of the... We had like a... I remember at one point we were talking about the character of B and how just his circumstances, just what he was born into, nothing more, have slowly just put him up into a corner to where he has no choices, basically. I don't think that's a spoiler by any means, but like, I mean, if that's not an immigrant tale, I don't know what is to where everything is literally working against you. And what's kind of beautiful that I think it's the idea of another... A friend of yours that you have a sanctuary with, this whole sanctuary city, a sanctuary relationship, how that's tested with the ability to go to school or to live your dreams and how that affects your relationship and how that affects your perspective. And what's interesting to me is like, even within this close relationship, that they've known so much about each other, know everything about each other and their circumstances of being undocumented and all that kind of stuff, when she gets documented and once she gets to school, he becomes even more by himself and she has her own experience as well. You kind of lose the connection. There's something about that switch that kind of really hits home with me because I find that's more of a tale that I see where it just shifts. When my dad got his visa and everything like that to where family members, that's not what that was in the case and like there was just like a disconnection as far as the experience of each other. And what's in intervals like they still fight for each other, which I think is also an immigrant tale. It's now soaking in the sorrow of the thing, someone's trying to bring you up and keep you going forward, which I love about it. So yeah, I connect with it in all the different ways of being part of an immigrant household. Hi guys. I wanted to add that I think that what really resonates with me from this play is that everyone's really, they're the VNG, they're working really hard to be here. They want to study, they're working really hard and I think that also being a part of an immigrant family, it's just this constant hustle and then through that constant hustle, their relationship and then the safety they feel with each other. But I like that, I like that she's working, she's what you're saying, and yeah, that really resonated with me and even to do that even with the struggle of not having documentation or like, yeah, that really felt that way. There is also another surprise in the play, which since this is being live streamed to HowlRound, we won't tell them, but it's not the only thing that V especially is dealing with right now that comes in later in the play. So yeah, just because it's being live streamed, I won't give it away. Yeah, yeah, they got to come and see the play. I think it's like, I didn't realize that I was doing that, I think, and then because it wasn't the default sort of linear, we're in one place for a time, it sort of stood out from, people thought that they needed to remark on that to me. I was like, oh, I guess I am playing with time and then why would I be doing that? And I sat with the question for a little bit and I wondered if it had to do actually with being sort of by cultural and living and having lived in other places where there's like, I was born in Poland and my family is still back there, my mom is here and my half-sister, and I always won't, I didn't make the choice on my own to come here, I was brought here, and I wonder about this other version of myself that might still be there, and who is she? What is she like? Would she be a playwright? And I think that when you know that there's time is bound with different versions of yourself and place, and I like to juxtapose scenes where characters have plans and then later on we see what happens, because most of us make, we make the best decision we can in the moment and then life will tell us whether it's going to work out or not, you know. And I like seeing the intentions of people and then seeing what might happen to them that might have been very much outside their control, so I mean it has to do with that too. So folks who know Ironbound, then it travels 10 years, 20 years in advance, back in time, 22 years and all. And so you get the sense of the dream or the vision and then what did or didn't happen, the rerouting. So it's not just circular forward, but also the movement back. They're speaking to each other. There's a relationship that a person is having while they're not just, and it's really that some of the characters passively observing their whole body is taken in with them for the whole experience. So when you mention a memory walks in, there's certain memories that assault you. There's ways that memories hate you and then you are just there. And I think particularly for people that don't often sit and muse about the whys of things, you just sort of thrust into them. There's something similar with memory where all of a sudden you're just there and you're experiencing it again and then you're out of it and you're not, you know, you're living many lives, many lives during the day. So can you, we've alluded to, can you tell us just a little bit about your life trajectory? You were born in Poland. I don't know if you want to talk about Chernobyl. Yeah. But just so, we'll give us a sense of. Yeah. I was born in Poland and when I was two and a half, my baby teeth turned black and disintegrated from what we think is Chernobyl radiation exposure. There's really kind of no way to track it because that wasn't, it's a lot of the history of that is the history of evacuation and refugees. And so I don't know if it was Chernobyl, but definitely it happened that week. I woke up with ash in my mouth and that event and when the truth about that event came out it was largely something that my mother wanted to leave from that area. And in addition to other things, it wasn't also, it was also personal. As much as an event that seems like a big historical event had to do with her wanting to leave, so did other personal things in her life. And we moved to New Jersey, grew up in the area around, in and around Newark. And in the past, right, if anyone's a jewelry person, no, I'm okay. Yup! And in that path, well, I'm a friend, a good piece of Nino's. And my mom worked in factories and clean houses. I didn't see Fido at all. I was about 18 years old. And when I went to college, also went to public schools. And when I went to college at the University of Chicago, that's the first time I got to sort of explore it. And afterwards I went to Yale School of Drama and Juilliard, all because it was free. Like, I went to get health insurance. And they also had stipends, which is why I was able to go. So it's sort of, those were, that's sort of hell. That's a short version, I guess, of my journey. Yeah. The missing system also seems to be one of the things that's actually used to be considered. It's doing, but also in the future. Yeah, for this one, it was part, like, growing up in Newark and around, it was like everyone was from somewhere else. It used to be the thing where, like, when kids were learning how to walk, their parents were learning how to speak English at the same time. And so that was, like, my understanding of this country, my understanding of America. And it was not strange for, like, the Polish person to know some Spanish and things like that. You know, it's, like, right outside of New York City. And for this play in particular, I felt like it didn't, it wasn't as much about where they're from as much as it is that they feel themselves to be American. They don't want to come up here. And it's not as though there's something in another place that they really don't have a connection to that they don't want to return to. It's that this is the home that they've lived in and understand. And this is where their friends are. And this is where they plan to make their future. And so that's why it didn't, it felt like I would have been closing doors by specifying exactly where everyone is from. So I wanted it to be more open. And then certain place, for example, Cost of Living, has, I say, there's two disabled characters in the play. And I'd say, please cast disabled actors in these roles, period. Like, there's no qualifying, it's just period. And I did that specifically because I felt that for those roles for disabled characters, the disabled community of actors tends to get jumped over and ignored. I feel like, listen, I love Brian Cranston. I love Eddie Redmayne. He's very handsome, very talented. But like, most of the time, people are jumping over other very talented people that are not given the opportunity to portray disabled characters. And so, thanks, man. Thanks, dude. And so it's just like, well, if you want to do the play, you know, you have to cast disabled actors. I've like, devs had theaters tell me, ah, we'd love to do it. But like, we just don't know any. And so I like publish lists of where they can get them. And it's still like, ah, we'd love to do it. But like, our theater is not accessible. And I'm like, that's easy to deal, to help you with. Also, there's funds. Do you want help? And then sometimes just because they like the play, which is fine. But like, don't use those excuses. And hopefully, like, one of the coolest things with the Pulitzer was, I feel like, I hope that people now will not have as much of an excuse. If, you know, like, if you want to do the 2018 Pulitzer prize play, you have to cast disabled people. So, yeah, that was where they came from. Tell you all about it. Listen up. Working class, Siri. We have no money. It is hard. We're engaging working class lives. And then I want to ask about the reception of the works and what gets staged and in what spaces, right? So, Siri's response was perfect. I don't understand that, what you're talking about. So, you know, what are the ways when a piece gets premiered at wherever? Manhattan Theatre Club. You know, have you thought about, I know you have. Give us a window into how one diversifies audiences or you're not writing to the subscriber-based position of privilege that many regional theater audiences would have. If I want to write anything I have to do with my life, it's not going to be an MTC subscriber. It's, I guess, like I was, you know, yeah, I'm not an MTC subscriber. I didn't, I wasn't born raised as an MTC subscriber in terms of having disposable income to go to the theater. No judgment on subscriber audiences. That just was not my experience. And so, I wrote from my experience and when I first started writing plays, people would tell me, oh, you're writing about immigrants. Oh, you're writing about poor people. I was like, yeah, I guess this is my family. Like, it was my family. And then from the outside, I got the response of, oh, you're writing about this thing and this isn't a net sort of thing. But it's like, you cannot separate the realities of immigration law on these people's lives. For example, it's not just like an article and a nice like thing to add into a character. It's like, it's dictating the parameters through which they have to move through their lives. So, you know, I could, I hope that an audience would come meet me. You know, in a particular, I mean, I don't even know where to start. The like, surprising responses I've gotten. I'll tell you a one that had to do with cost of living when we did cost of living in MTC because you talked about it. It's like, I kept getting the note during previews. There's almost spoiled something about what's fine in the play. There's a character who you don't realize until later on through the play that she's been sleeping in her car. She's, she went to Princeton. The character went to Princeton and has graduated and has fallen in difficult times. Her mother has gotten sick and has had to go back to her home country and she's here alone and having to make ends meet and help her mother in another country and student loans, et cetera, et cetera. And ends up having to sleep in her car is the best option. And I kept getting the note from audience members that they didn't believe that somebody who went to Princeton could end up sleeping in their car. And I was not this, I was not too, in my experience, this is my life. I was personally not that far from that fate. You know, not planning a place to live. But you never want to be like, what? It really happened. And then shut the fuck up, because like that's not useful. It's useful to like a point and then they're still like, I don't get your play. I'm not coming back. And so I kept, I was like, the play is not about this. That is not what the play is about. But okay, you're telling me you don't understand something. I'll write a little bit more and it'll help you accept that to take it in. And I kept writing this garbage, like just terrible monologues about poverty. And I was like, oh, I just felt disgusting. And I took it out, because I was like this isn't this character. I left some of it in to like do compromise. And like still I would still get the same notes. And there was one day a group of students from Newark and Jersey City, so the area that I was writing about and from came to the show. And I asked them to talk back. I was like, so when she says like, you know, she went to Princeton and she's sleeping in her car. Did that, was that weird for you? And they were like, no? Like, they were like, yeah, it's my cousin or whatever. And I was like, all right, cool. Like it's not that the play is wrong. It's not like there's something, but I guess I'd hope that I'll go up to a point and then hopefully you'll meet me halfway. I'm not trying to exclude anybody from these narratives. The idea is to invite people in. But I can't convince somebody that like the truth of what the country they live in is. I think it ended up having to be about like people didn't want to believe that somebody went to Princeton and I'm sleeping in her car. And I was like, I can't help you. So that's one. But it's often it's like, oh, I don't have, I haven't had this experience. And so therefore it must be false. Which I think is like a very, it's a dangerous position I think for anybody to say a human being is not capable of something good or bad. Like we've had the history of the world to tell us that people are capable, a human body is capable of horrible atrocities and beautiful, wonderful acts. To say I don't believe that that's possible I think is a very limited perspective on your life and living. So I don't know what you do. It won't surprise you to know that I think almost every play has the sentence, sentiment, there is no place for sentimentality in this world or something to benefit. Do you guys have questions of each other before we open it up to the group? Yeah. Martina or you have none. Yeah, exactly. Where's a good place to get food in D.C.? Moments when you were most hooked or questions you have. I'll say there's also among the projects in process is a musical about Chernobyl so that little snippet that we heard perhaps there's going to be an audacious new play that one would not imagine coming out. New musical. Chernobyl. Yeah. I swear it'll be funny. It has to be. Continue. These people continue. Like I think there's been a like, you know people look at Chernobyl and they look at the quote unquote like sad and devastating thing which are they are sad and devastating things but like you people continue they have to find a way to keep moving forward and I think certain narratives cut off at a point which it's the most sensational and devastating but then don't look at how people continue and so that's why and they say it's funny. Not that Chernobyl is funny it's totally not funny. No and there's also a do you have a mini series on right now right and so like thinking about what theater does differently or why you express the work you express through plays and theater. I haven't seen it but like you know I wish I wish Craig and the folks well but yeah I think we're looking at different things looking at the event and I'm looking at the event plus what happens after. I have a question for the actors. We were speaking earlier about this beautifully liberatingly unique uniquely liberating choice to have the characters in this show listed as just non-western European descendants which feels very rare to me and we're hearing a lot these few days from a lot of leadership and I would love to hear from you as actors the struggles and the hopes that you have as being actors who are non-white Western descendants here what that is like from the actor's perspective of like am I making myself clear can you go somewhere with that? Yeah? So I'm gonna call out someone who's already in the audience Heather Roppo one time talked about value and it stuck with me obviously for a while this is like when we're doing a reading at the Atlantic for like the Mixfest Middle Eastern Mixfest right wonderful works of Middle Eastern people Middle Eastern stories varying different stories obviously and one time in she was talking about the idea of value as far as the people and crisis and constantly being in crisis like that's a very big Middle Eastern thing right if you're in the Middle Eastern crisis that's a common story we've told right is not not true obviously there is a good amount of crisis in the Middle East correct but I think the sheer thought of people that's having agency and just kind of being like an everyday thing and having that ability and that strength and like seeing what that is in the world like the sheer idea that I'm Iranian American right having that be a thing but not be a thing does that make sense I really feel like that's the step that's the step I look forward to and I feel like I've been fortunate to a degree in theater to kind of have that ability to kind of stretch and not be defined by my ethnicity which I'm not ashamed of by any means or anything like that but I just think there's so much more to a human than just their country of origin I mean I was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico like come on I'm not strictly thank you Iranian you know so there's so much more experience that I have that I don't get to express and it's getting better I will say it's not quite there yet it's not there yet but it is getting better in my eyes and we have wonderful voices like Heather Rockwell, like Martina like a lot of different plays that are opening up to this B to have agency to have value like this story like yeah it's a crisis but it's also just it's more than that it's not just that it's so many different things it's like a love story but it's more than a love story it's a it's an immigration problem but it's more than an immigration problem it's a human problem it's like all the universal kind of tidbits and like that idea of value and being more than just your crises and your place of origin that's the that's the goal and I guess sorry to you but to answer your question I feel like it's getting better because the playwrights like this and like there and all that stuff yeah I used to always say when I first moved here from Cairo that I was like oh I just want to work on projects that just have to do with you know oh it's you know the relationship between the characters and it's like not like oh my god you are defined because you are Middle Eastern because I come from a mixed background so my my mom's Venezuelan my dad's Egyptian so I'm mixed so it would always be like no you have to you are this person and we're gonna play you're gonna be in display because you are this ethnicity and so when I read this part where it was like oh it could be from any of these places like yeah that's exactly I think it is getting better because there are so many plays that are it doesn't yeah the identity is important and the fact that you're an immigrant it's a part of the storytelling but it doesn't really there are so many different immigrants and there are so many different like it's not just like one color so yeah I think it's getting better yeah I think it's getting better too I think that was that did that answer your question were you better or worse by getting better I add one more time yeah one more time it's also and I'm not calling people out but it's also the idea of these plays exist we need to produce them like you don't tell me they don't exist I can't tell you how many times I've heard stories about oh we love to do that play but we can't find the people very calm and tail they're out there I'm sorry we've made literally databases for people you literally just go to the website and click a fucking database for every like you need a thing here's a thing here's a thing here's a database database somewhere for your thing that you need that's one thing like we have the technology we have the people that's the big thing we have the people just try it's not a hard try I don't think you'll be surprised just try and like I'm sure people will help if it does get difficult that's all yeah also just now clearly we have like a lot of opinions about this may I add critics while we're at it like there's all that's exactly what I was thinking too yeah well do you want to ask do you want to well it's just that there's like I swear to God that if death of a salesman had been written by a woman they would have called it emotionally baggy and domestic and small so good play but like there's a perspective that a person has on it of like oh this must be small and you know whatever because it's written by a woman or by an XYZ or whatever and like it would be like nice to have sometimes like yes the identities of these characters is bound within who they are but also be nice to sometimes just be have the freedom to be able to write a character oh my God I feel so free I feel so free because I know it's not going to be like I'm making a comment or speaking for you know it's like I write a play and they'd be like well these female issues or well I'm like yes yes yes but can I just can she just be like complicated or like as opposed to it being a comment on like women or any other any other thing that has to be and I think that's that's that's also in how the work is talked about after it's you know once it's up the thing that always kills me is like theater it's beautiful and ephemeral and then it goes away and the only thing that stays are the reviews online which is very a very biased perspective we all have a bias we all have a limited experience of living our lives and the things that we've consumed but if there's only one person out there who can say whether yes or no and this and whether it's valid then that's dangerous as fuck man I'm sure there are things how did you discover theater and why do you stay with it? I go backwards and answer why do I stay with it why do I I hate writing so much I really don't like it but I love being in the rehearsal room with actors and collaborating if I think if I knew if I had the right answer I'd write fiction in a room by myself but I know I don't I write when I write plays they're a hypothesis the first draft is a hypothesis like is this true does this work and then in conversations with other people and their truths you work to make a more honest version of whatever story that I try to I hope to and I love that process so much I feel more alive in the rehearsal room than pretty much anyone else in the world so I continue doing it for that I also find when I first started writing I found it really I had to be everybody I had to be all the characters and so nobody could be a villain and nobody could be a victim because you had to occupy all of them and that I find that to be a beautiful thing and very useful and helpful I don't there's conversations I can have with myself through the act of making theater that I don't think I'd be able to have on my own or just in a way and so that's kind of why I keep keep doing it I love it I'm addicted I can't stop so yeah that's why I keep doing it so the immediate question that I had when I was listening to the reading was why wasn't this why why didn't this get written before and then I understand that it was just sort of spur of the moment idea that you had so then my new question is would you have been able to write something like this let's say even five or ten years ago where the conversation about undocumented immigrants or migration in general was a lot was a lot different back then I mean at least I can say that five years ago I would be fighting with very progressive liberal friends about you know they were saying yeah if you're undocumented you should be sent back just because you're undocumented and even ten years back I mean it was even more harsh so would you have been able to write something like this ten years ago five years ago fuck yes then can I ask why didn't you because I had other plays that also with the topics like I started writing I'd say like what 2005 or so and they were all I was undocumented for a time I overstayed my visa my mom overstayed her visa and I and it's in the plays it's in the other plays too because it's their lives my first play that when I was playing called Iron Brown it's the Polish immigrant that's the largest based on my mother's experience and that's and so I was writing those things they existed why is this the first time you're here no why do you think maybe it's because it's not on Broadway why is it not on Broadway well but yes I want but I think I know what you're asking me like was it this wasn't a thing of I read an article and I wrote this this particular one before I actually thought genuinely the issue of Dreamers has you know we've we've figured that out we've solved it the Dream Act in 2012 it's all good and then this has been happening and all these things and so it wasn't the purpose for me actually the purpose for this play wasn't like oh let me show the lives of these of the situation it was me feeling intense guilt for a choice that I made where I could have helped more and I didn't and I and I started writing it from there from personal places that have the political in them but I and I think these plays have existed and they probably existed at the ones who can produce existed on small stages that are now changing but aren't at the height that they could be so I think yeah they think they could have they could have been particularly if the person is writing from personal experience because that's not it's not what's popular in the news it's just your personal experience if anyone would like we have time for one more question is this on I promise my question isn't that good hi yeah hey how you doing I'm good yeah you too Martina I feel like my question is probably the flip side of Hector's which is that I think I have seen on stages small at least in different incubator groups that nurture writers of color this tendency to lean into a trope that actually is sort of like hemmed in by the stories that producers want to see told and so actually like especially for undocumented writers Latinx writers specifically just narratives of migrant issues and border crossings are really really prevalent and I'm wondering how we challenge institutions to highlight stories that are incredibly timely and personal and urgent while not leaning into the trap of sort of like liberal back padding that happens where they only want to see us as one thing they only want to see Middle Eastern stories that stories involving terrorism they only want to see black stories and involve black death for example so how would you break out of those tropes while still saying true to the stories you want to tell institution I wouldn't know like what what they could do aside from like finding what finding language and I mean it's also like it's money right like I mean you're having to it's like nonprofit theater yes but it's capitalist you got paying I'd pay a bunch of money to go and it's not like it's in the it's in the marketing of the thing that you might there are many ways to have pleasure in the theater they can you can be scared you can have you could be laughing you could be crying and it's not I think most of us aren't like trying to get our news from the theater we're trying to chasing after those like feelings of transcendence and that we that we want and they could also happen to be you know about about many things but like to your question about tropes I feel like I am I actually get like I have a lot of like white playwrights will ask me like can I do this I was like why are you asking me like like can I can I whatever there's one person was she was trying to write a one person show where she talked about her neighborhood and she's like there's a character in it that has a that has a thick Asian dialect like can she she has like a white performer do that I was like okay well listen I was like you can do anything however like know that whatever story you're telling is in conversation with all the stories that have been told ever and including all of the representations of anyone identity that have been told or allowed to be told on a certain platform ever and so like if you choose to do that if you as a white person choose to occupy that position you will be in conversation with the Mickey Rooney's and all these things whatever so like do you want to be a part of that or do you not want to be a part of that and I leave a choice to you and so I think there's when you're when one person is writing it and they have to be conscious wherever they're from of the tropes that are told about any one particular person and then you know ask themselves is that this character have you made that choice because you feel like they're from this identity like what what are you putting out in that a play is limited time it's 90 minutes so you can't encompass an entire person's life but if the things that you're choosing to tell about anyone character that happens to be this which also was seen as a very specific thing that might be a dangerous that might be a dangerous thing that you're doing and unnecessary and so find the other thing to show but and there also I feel like there are there are these plays that are that are because because the writers are from these particular worlds they're writing from their experience of being a millennial living in New York City or whatever it is that also happens to be undocumented or black or whatever whatever other thing and then the reviewers or the preferable me outside are saying that it's a play about this when that wasn't the intention that wasn't the sole intention to to to write you ever play about like four girls hanging out and if you like trying made girls all black would it then be able to show about the black experience yes but not just like no one's saying all the white girls is a play about the white experience it is but no one's calling it that and so this defaulting that I think is happening is why we were having to you know playwrights who have or othered stories who are othered continue to be othered because we've lived with the default for so long and no one's called out the default so I mean it's a kind of a long-winded thing but I'm not sure how do we solve it fix it what should we do I don't know fix it Brian one of the things that you do is the both and so I mean cost of living the title has it right in there it's so much about economics and it's so much about the human costs of living and some like the both end with the flexibility with language in almost every play there's some marker so in cost of living where it's saying you know wherever the character is from you know translated into that language you've got the flexibility here so it's both particularized and open I cannot say the number of times people have been like all cost of living is about disability I'm like it's not absolutely not but that's what I'm saying both and and that's you're creating these stories that are resisting but that doesn't mean that the reception is going to the lens hasn't quite changed the outside lens of how those how to define those things hasn't and so you're then the person watching is then going in with a certain thing of like I'm supposed to learn about the disabled experience which is false it's a false way to enter a play I think it's more to focus on the things that make we're way more similar than we are dissimilar we've all experienced love and loss and grief and all these things and they all exist in these plays that are binding but this focus on the difference is like yes it's true but it's also not just that thing he was just saying that's always an interesting starting point the idea of starting a play of the part of where we meet each other as a part to where we don't meet each other like that's that's a really interesting thing to me and that's what I feel like when we talk about problem plays or topic plays or things I feel like when we just focus on the topic we find the difference and the other and the push away as opposed to a more empathetic inviting thing which I think theater is kind of based on in the sense of communitas and everything of each other and even in the most terrible person we're going to meet them somewhere in some kind of human experience like I always feel like that's a more interesting inviting point with a play than the other which you do find the other times thanks for having me just a huge thank you Bobby and Dahlia and Martina and Maya really beautiful performance and conversation so we have about a 10 minute pause here before we resume with Secretary Madeleine Albright Ambassador Palouse our friends from Alliance for New Music Theater in conversation and performance with Voslav Havel's protest so there's coffee in the lobby if you want to stretch your legs and we're back