 Welcome. Thanks for joining us. I feel like it's a Monday, but it's not. Don't worry. I've just been off the first couple of days this week enjoying some extended Fourth of July holiday. We are so thrilled to have you back here at the nonprofit show. Julie and I of course are here and we are with our guest Michael Buckley. That's a CFRE with kill low group and I'm so excited to have you with us Michael to talk to us about communicating with major donors, and I just have to say Michael and I met in Vegas. And we were attending a, a side get together a little, a little cocktail and connection with one of our friends, and really just glad to have the opportunity to meet you Michael and of course for you to say yes to being on our show so thanks for doing that. And before we dive into this conversation with you we of course want to make sure that our viewers and our listeners know who they're looking at are possibly listening to. Julia Patrick is here she is a great staple of the nonprofit show and she is the mastermind behind the nonprofit show so as the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy Julia. Again, I just have to say thank you for creating this platform because I love being here with you each and every day to serve alongside as the co host I'm Jared ransom, your nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven group. We are honored to have the continued support of our presenting sponsors that would be blooming American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, nonprofit nerd fundraising Academy staffing boutique and the nonprofit thought you know we're coming up on our 600 episode and we really have to say, thank you, thank you, thank you to these sponsors because they keep us going and growing you know Julia we used to say national but we're really international now. And as we were just talking about Ireland right like at some point I have a feeling we're going to be broadcasting from there so Michael maybe you'll be there as well. Count me in I'm honored to be here today but I would really love to be there so. Absolutely. Well if you missed any of our episodes or you know that you like what you're hearing and you want to share it with your friends your colleagues your board members. You can find us on Roku YouTube Amazon Fire TV, as well as Vimeo plus podcast so if you're a podcast listener, like I am, you can queue up the nonprofit show and listen to us we're still working on that hologram right Julia where someone just says the nonprofit show and we show up like in the flesh. Or in the digitized you know version but really excited so that we have this free platform for all of you to enjoy and experience. They live forever these recordings live forever so check them out. But again enough about us let's move into our guest I'm so excited, Michael Buckley to have you and you're a CFR E which for those of you that are scratching your head about me. It's a certified fundraising executive and so again, you bring a lot of great insight in particular when it comes to fundraising interacting with donors, and you also are the founder of the kilo group tell us a little bit about yourself Michael. Thanks everyone for the opportunity to be here, Mike Buckley with the collo group I have been a career nonprofit fundraiser, and I'm really passionate about the field I think the work we do to help advance nonprofit organizations, either in our community or locally or globally or whatever is really important so really happy to be here today I am a proud former student phone up on caller, which is how I got my nonprofit career start my parents are still not sure what I do for a living but they they know it's working. But anyway, so, just so thrilled to be here helping organizations really make smart effective decisions and communicating with major donors I know we'll get into that definition in a moment but I think how we communicate with donors can really grow long term sustainable relationships to advance the work of our organizations. You know, I love that you mentioned the, the college phone upon I was to find out how many of our guests served in that capacity because it tells it says a lot about us I think but I love that. So today you're going to talk to us really about you know how we can communicate with our major donors, but let's start with a baseline. What the heck is a major donor like let's start at that bottom bottom rung. Tell us in maybe even define Mike if you would like what is a major donor. So for me I always say a major donor is what you believe it to be and I think that that's probably an easy way out of answering that question, but I'll tell you when I worked in higher education. I think we were $25,000 and above that was the definition. A lot of my work after higher ed was in animal welfare both working in it and consulting in it, and major donors to animal welfare is, you know, a thousand 500 to $1,000. I think too often we talk about major donors and we exclude folks who have that potential based on what we might believe to be true so well major donors I think are important they're certainly important it's important to have a definition in your head. All donors deserve the same type of communication and the same type of interaction. Wow, that's a great, great way to define kind of what we're looking at because I think a lot of times, you know smaller organizations or newer organizations will say oh we don't have major donors. Yeah, I think, leave it at that. All major donors, I also say to folks to board members and staff when we're doing consulting work they think about your own personal philanthropy know we're all donors. And what a major, what an impactful, you know, stretch gift is for me is probably is definitely going to be different than other people so think about how you want to be treated and leave the dollar amount out of it. You know, like I have to add, and I've shared this on the show before, but I alluded, I didn't allude I said, I just I just flat out said it to a major donor of an organization where I was working with that she was a major donor and she goes oh gosh no no no like, thank you but my $5,000 really doesn't do that much I'm sure and I was like, she has no idea that she is a major donor and I remember having this conversation and I thought, should I have told her that. And, you know, in the moment I was like, Oh gosh, what did I do wrong but then I really realized what a great opportunity it was to say your impact of $5,000 is in fact a major major donor level with this organization, but it also told me Michael she has the capacity for Oh yeah, definitely and think about impact and outcomes I mean we we talk about that a lot in in our work as nonprofit professionals but it, it, you know it's almost like ROI, if you have a $5,000 donor that's got a high level of ROI to your organization. They should be treated as a major donor and that might make people feel uncomfortable, but realistically and you're absolutely right that says to me there's a lot more capacity there, so let's build a strong relationship and help them get there. Yeah, that's certainly what I heard I was like, okay, okay so we need to increase the giving here but again just just a great opportunity. Well you mentioned the relationship and I'm curious if you can talk to us a little bit Mike about, you know the importance of these in person visits, and I know that a lot of this has, you know gone into this digital space we're very comfortable meeting in a digital space right now, and sometimes even old school with a telephone this this is what a telephone looks like by the way. Yeah, the rotary right. But tell us a little about about the importance from your perspective in the in person opportunities. The presentation I did at icon was all about how to be a better communicator with donors how to listen to donors, and how to talk with the donors better really regardless of that level and and how do you grow a better more sustainable relationship One of the things that I was sort of shocking to me when I was surprising to me, I should say, when I was doing the research for the presentation is the amount of non verbal social cues that exist in one on one communication, it's impossible to get that reaction it's impossible to read someone's reaction on their face when you're on the phone. It's hard to do it on zoom. It's not impossible, but it's hard to do it on zoom because, you know, we're all in our own environment we're all, you know, dealing with technology and all of that So when it is safe for us to go back to in person visits and there's ways that we can navigate around that right now. But it's really important because almost I think it's a more than half of someone's reaction is shown on their face or in their non verbal cues, as compared to what they say. And think about how we deal with that every day in our lives you know we pick up on not only what people say but how they react in a non verbal way and we've got to do that in person when we're growing relationships with donors. I love that you said that because I think in in that process of trying to work with a donor, and then I think a lot of times we psych ourselves out by fixing that moniker major donor. It seems like we're worried about what we're going to say and you know are we getting through our script and, and then we lose those opportunities to really evaluate what's happening right before us. And it takes time I think that's the hard part about our work in the in the donor world major intro whatever you want to call them. You know we're building those individual relationships, it takes time to make those connections and they think too often. You know we've all heard horror stories in the nonprofit space of gift officers who have quotas and expectations and visit numbers and all that. You know it takes a long time to build a relationship think about and I mean I say that sort of tongue in cheek but think about how long it was from your first date to the day you married your spouse. You know it wasn't three things that happened you know in a very short period of time, it took a long time to build that relationship and that's what we're doing in this space. It's up for these reality shows that now they get buried like the blind date on the spot, but you're, I totally get it I subscribe to that as well right like I always say it's like dating it's like you know you're not going to ask your first date to marry you that night. And so building these relationships is so important. And one thing that Julie and I have mentioned is really, you know the tenure of a development professional and it might be, you know, 18 months that this person is in their development space or you know, place in this organization. So having this relationship transfer, and I'm always a huge proponent to Mike for like document document document everything needs to be in the donor database. Blumering right like having these notes in there, but how else you know do we really build upon these relationships you talked about the ROI you talked about, you know, how we can create some effective relationships. And seeing, and maybe what's changed over these last two and a half to three years that we need to be mindful of. I think it first of all asking questions, I think that's really important as major gift as gift officers as fundraising professionals whatever we want to call ourselves. Often we're focused on telling and sharing our story, which is absolutely important we want to be telling donors, what we're doing the in the outcome and the in the impact or your gifts are having, but ultimately sharing successes, sharing what the work you're doing, but asking questions, asking for donors to react you know, tell me what what do you think of our new strategic plan what do you think of our new priorities you know what do you think of the problem we're trying to fix. I think that build a more authentic two way conversation thing too often we're so, you know, we all love the work we do, we love the organizations we work for we want to share as much as we can. But too often I think we stop, we fail to ask donors and prospects for their reactions to that. And you know you talked about before you know a donor who didn't see themselves as a major donor. So if you think about when you're asking donors questions, they're going to tell you what is important to them, what is, you know, what makes them become a donor, ask those questions to build better relationships. You make this sound so simple, and you know I know Julia you and I we've been in this world a long time as well in this world really of asking and fundraising, but I have to I have to acknowledge Mike and I know you know this Julia as well. So many people put the donors like on a pedestal to where they're intimidated to talk to them they're not quite sure how to go about the conversation they get really nervous because they know that this person you know has a greater capacity. I'm really curious because we have a viewer on that let me know this morning they were going to join because this is a topic that is like just so perfect for them they have an opportunity to meet with so many major donors as their, as they're growing their own organization. So these questions, I think what you just did is like bring it down to something that as I said it seems so simple and these open ended questions. I love the fact that you said, you know, ask them what they think of your strategic plan. That opens so many avenues for conversation. Yeah, and I think asking donors. Why do you support our organization. I, you know, I am a donor to many organizations at different levels. I know one via email via phone and and let's not I mean as as three former phone upon calling nerds. Let's not forget the power of a phone call, like the actual we can zoom we can email we can do all that great stuff. But now when people call my phone I, it's like an honor, like people are actually calling to talk to me on the phone so called whether you're meeting with donors in person major donors, however, call people and ask them, you know, just very very generous to our organization. Why do you support our organization and just let the conversation flow from there you will be amazed at what you hear. They will be long winded conversations I'll tell you I shared in Vegas I'll share very quickly. My wife went to college on a financial aid scholarship and we got invited to the new president's reception and he did his due diligence and he said to her, Why, you know, what what did it mean to you to be able to go here. And that conversation just went in all types of crazy good directions and me I knew why he was asking, because I know there's going to be follow up there, but asking donors to tell you their story and authentically listening when they tell you it is is really how you're going to build that strong relationship. So good. You know I really feel that so many people put grand tours on the pedestal right and they're like, I'm too intimidated to talk to them and the same with major donors because maybe there's a risk of saying something wrong or you know not not saying something in the right place but I know you know really just having these relationships. One thing we've talked to you about during these pandemics plural is that return on relationship. And so I love that you mentioned the ROI the return on investment and that return on relationship and providing us some qualification, you know questions for us to ask our donors and it doesn't have to be rocket science it's it's a simple open ended and let them take the conversation. And then, could you speak to us Mike about how this then translates right into our donor pipeline and how we might manage this donor pipeline. Because this is, this is a lot of great opportunity but but where do we harness this information. To your point earlier you want to harness this information somewhere documented so that if we all win the lotto and our successors have to come in that is somewhere so I always stress the importance of all that interesting anecdotal information that you may think is not important, or is authentic to your relationship with that donor that needs to go somewhere definitely put that in a database please please God put them in the database. But ultimately, you know what we're doing is we're qualifying and cultivating by building the authentic relationships we're asking questions asking what's important to donors, you know I went to a wonderful college financial aid is asking me athletics is not ask me, you know ask those questions, and you know that when you come back to me to make a solicitation, you should not be asking me for athletics you should be asking me for for financial aid or whatever so having that information, building that relationship having that strong information really comes in important comes in to play in both qualification and cultivation you're asking the good right questions. You know what you're doing, or you're listening, when your donors are responding so I think it's really important you're able to hone in a better and more intensive ask if you've built a good relationship along the way. You know, and the fact that it's not a one size fits all, you know we have our good friends fundraising Academy and, and they talk a lot about you know how every donor journey every donor cycle is different, and if you go back to your example of marriage, you know it's not, it's not a one size fits all for any couple and it's not it's the same it's not a one size fits all for any donor. And I think that's important. One thing that I hear and see a lot Mike and I'm curious if you do as well is, you know, an organization engages with a consultant and they think that they're going to bring their golden roll a dex. And as soon as they signed on the dotted line right like a windfall of money is going to show up and just speak to you know how you work with your clients and maybe the expectations of working with a consultant in this arena. I think that, and that's a whole nother, you know, ethics conversation and soapbox conversation for how fundraising is different than sales and I struggle that we're going down that path but but anyway, you know, your most authentic, your your most high capacity, and your most connected donors already existing your donor database. It drives me crazy when nonprofit organizations you do the free wealth screen with whatever, and they send out their 500 richest donors like both you already knew why did you waste that energy, but you know capacity is really hard to determine now you know it's really hard to it's really easy to hide your wealth. Building those strong donor relationships, I think is more important than knowing who has the most money just because I have the most money doesn't mean that they're going to give you the most and I think the consultant's role is to come into the organization and help you craft a strategy to build that stronger relationship with the donors you already have a lot of my work as I said, is an animal welfare, unless you know Ellen or Oprah, they're not going to give to your animal rescue. They're not. So why are we wasting our time, trying to get to Oprah. That is so true there's so many like, you know, in our community, you know, there's there's a certain family and it's like, well, well they have tons of money. Why can't we just ask them and it's like well first of all get in line. Second of all, they're, they're philanthropic pillars are not aligned with your mission. And so just because they have the capacity does not mean that there's a mission alignment and a propensity to give you know to that so that's, that's really interesting. I'm going to wrap up Mike I'm curious if you can, you know, shine that crystal ball of yours I'm sure you have it, and tell us. I know as you're looking for it. Magic eight ball anyway, magic eight ball and and you know if you would just kind of. Where do you see major donors, going in the next 18 months. In the next 18 months, I think that the economy will certainly have an effect on what we are doing. Now is the time to build and I feel like a broken record but now is the time to build those relationships, whether or not they will give to you at their capacity remains to be seen I think we're starting to hear people getting a little bit nervous about what the market's doing and inflation and gas and all that. But that doesn't mean that they don't want to hear from you and going back to your earlier question, during the height of the pandemic which I hope was a go and not not still now you I think the most successful nonprofit organizations were those that were calling their donors just to say hello, and just to tell them that they were still existing. Don't ask for money, believe it or not it's okay it's okay to call donors and not ask for money, I'm here to tell you that. And interestingly, so many of those folks were surprised that they weren't being asked for a gift that they still made a gift. So some of the successful nonprofits, you know, in the last year and a half and I think in the in the future year and a half to two years will though will be those who just build that relationship and don't make it just about the gift, we've got to play the long game. And the long game is not dialing for dollars like we all did the long game is building that long term relationship. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. I agree and I think that is when you have that mindset, Michael I feel like those organizations that have embraced that. And that's really a core value. They have deeper relationships with those donors that then become foundational and become sustainable. It's, it's so hard when you're looking at the bottom line and you're looking at your budgets and you work with fear. But if you can step outside of that and say look, this is a long way away from where we are today how do we navigate that with our donors and with our community. It's such a healthier way to go. It's not it's not sales. It is with all due respect to our friends who do the sales work. This is a long term strategy there's a donor journey and you know we want we want to keep everyone's got a top three I think I think every donor has three pillars to your comment before. Make sure if you're in that three, you stay in those three and how you stay in is not always asking for money. I'm so glad you mentioned that you know one of the things we Julie and I catch ourselves saying often is there are 1.8 million nonprofits registered in the US. And for me, I also want to honor the fact that you know everyone has a choice when it comes to their donations and just because they're not giving to you in the top three doesn't mean that we need to, you know, look down our nose at these individuals and that means that they are in, you know, core value alignment and mission alignment with another organization. And I believe that we should still celebrate their philanthropy in the community at large. And I just love that you mentioned that Mike because you know maybe that wasn't quite your point but that's what I took from it as well as there are so many amazing causes out there. And for those individuals that are going to give to annual animal welfare, you know, great. Then there's other individuals that are going to give to education, as you just mentioned you know when it comes to, to, you know, help with scholarships and whatnot so we really need to thank the donor and their mission alignment and this has just been a great conversation again I knew when we met in Vegas at the AFP icon conference that you are going to be just a fantastic, you know, wealth of information so thank you Michael for all that you've provided us in this short amount of time that goes by to darn quickly. It does know it's great and thank you for the opportunity. It is always always love to talk and like you said this conversation should could go on forever so thank you. Well, here's Michael, Michael Buckley's information as a CFRE he brings a lot of education and observation to the table. Founder of the killer group the killer group.com is where you can find Michael and learn more about what he and his team do really been a fabulous opportunity to get this perspective on major donors communicating with major donors and how we need to maybe change our mindset as we move forward through an interesting time. Again, if we haven't met I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy and I have been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jarrett Ransom. I'm delighted to say shares this amazing journey, if you will, of the nonprofit show. We are marching towards 600 episodes and Jarrett, you know, I remind our viewers and listeners and I think I remind myself that when I look at who our sponsors are so many of these folks have been with us from the beginning, which is really an interesting thing and it kind of speaks to a lot of those things that Michael was talking about about the relationship and how you navigate, you know, working together and so I want to make sure that we extend our phenomenal gratitude to Blue Morang, American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, nonprofit nerd, fundraising Academy, staffing boutique and nonprofit thought leader. It's been a great conversation. And as we end our episode today, we really want to remind ourselves, our viewers and our listeners to stay well, so you can do well. I'll see you back here tomorrow everyone.