 And we're live. Hey everyone. My name is Anthony Johnson founder of the 21 convention in 21 studios Coming at you live today from 21 studios world fucking headquarters I'm here with Nicholas cloud who is not in Florida. He's out in the Midwest Say over St. Louis. Okay. Yeah, very far west of me No, we're near me anyway, Nick. Thanks for hopping on today Nicholas cloud was the The person by far the most responsible for directing me to a whole new line of the speakers this year for the 21 convention and really Challenging the philosophy I had led and different components of my life up to that point Nick introduced me to the work of Rola Tomasi and the red pill in late, June I think of 2016 It might have been like July 1st right around that time And after I had met him at the under 21 convention last year in the land of Florida Nick also ended up attending the 21 convention 2016 and of course also be this year's event the 10 year anniversary in Orlando, Florida With all that said Nick. Thanks for hopping on and that I miss anything I didn't mention like your career and stuff you do all kinds of really cool adventure. Oh, we should get into that too That will be really good The James DeMor stuff if yeah, that would be I mean I've been meaning to talk to you about that on a more personal basis I'm curious Yeah, so I write computer software. I've done that for 13 years now, I guess Kind of got into that. I grew up with the computer Kind of self-taught. I just I wanted to learn I learned how to computers work because I wanted to to play video games it's a good way to get into it and Turned it into a career and it's kind of self-taught started going to school dropped out because Anything you're gonna learn in school is gonna be a couple years behind anyway That wasn't where the market was so I dropped out and I've been doing it ever since so Yeah, and you mentioned, you know, you a lot of work and like the guys I know the do the kind of stuff that are WordPress developers designers People who are pretty good at coding now different parts of the web One of the guys that the guy that before you was the best I knew he met you and he was like holy shit like Nick is you're like you're way more advanced than most guys I know in this field Not to blow too much smoke up your ass, but like you're actually really seriously into this stuff I'm kind of a big deal. Yeah, kind of a big fucking deal Kind of big fucking deal I've never seen the guy I'm talking about I've never I've never seen him respond that way to someone When it comes to computers and the internet and WordPress and everything like that So it was it was fascinating to see that in person last year on MAMI Awesome, thanks So with that said Let's you know, we've been introducing Red Bull topics and speakers on the channel slowly in recent months Especially with Tanner Guzzi and then into the private man who recently passed away But for the guys who don't know can you kind of walk them through the elevator version or a short version of what you walked me through through email and a very well-written and Detailed email you sent me introducing me to the work of Rola Tomasi and Red Pill Yeah, so I guess just a little bit of background about my Kind of my life. I grew up in a Pretty religious home very religious home actually it's pretty pretty traditional Protestant You know, so I had a lot of I guess Quote-unquote biblical patriarchal influences that I was taught But there was also there was also this kind of underlying Philosophy of how men and women relate that is much more what what our culture Kind of promotes, you know, that men don't ever hit women when you know, men always hold the door for women A woman's prerogative is to change your mind These types of things so I grew up so I grew up with these ideas and they're just kind of common they're not really tied to religion per se, but You know, they were they were pretty well accepted by by everyone. So I enter my adult life and I Ended up leaving the church walking away from Christianity. I became an atheist. I actually you know started reading philosophy sort of questioning a lot of things I believed and Those are probably early 20s That I really started that I really started questioning and ended up walking away. I was also homeschooled. So, you know, I got I got It was a pretty big Fire hose of fundamentalism that that I was drinking from up until you know And I say all that just because like I you know thinking back like I walked away from all these things But you know when Consciously like I was consciously rejecting these bad ideas But then it wasn't until 10 years later after I had been through an entire marriage that I discovered that I had some even more Core fundamental ideas that were they were kind of poisoning the well They were still poisoning the well and I went deeper than you thought Exactly, exactly and it took me a 10-year marriage And and a divorce to actually actually figure that stuff out I found out recently I didn't know that that you found the red pill while you were still married about two years before you ended up divorcing Yeah, yeah You know, so so I got married early got married young had a very short dating period You know, I have like like my ex and I we we parted ways on on decent terms I have no animosity towards her We were both we both came into the relationship with bad ideas and we both made bad ideas work for 10 years And that's that's something that no one should have to do That's that's a although honestly that that's better than how it turns out for most like this is not I don't think this is particularly common Most people blow up Or there's all kinds of you know alimony payments and settlements to just get men get totally shafted. Yeah You're aware of at that time, right? Yeah, so so what had happened was you know during that during the course of marriage I mean, you know life events happen you go through things but as the years marched on I started realizing that There was something broken about the relationship and the marriage and I didn't know what it was Things didn't work, you know, and you always hear that you're supposed to tough it out You're supposed to just have these relationships and you're supposed to work through the hard times and to some degree That's true to some degree. There are gonna be things in life that you just have to plow through But it was more it was it was more at the core of my being where there was just deep-seated unhappiness where I wasn't getting Certain needs met and I didn't know I didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it and so what I started doing was I Started kind of deep dive. I didn't know what to read. I didn't know where to look so I started deep diving material Online just searching for general topics of masculinity and femininity like what are what are maybe the roles that? I'm supposed to adopt and maybe I just don't understand something about that and I gotta back up a little bit too like You know my ex was a it was kind of a career woman She was very independent. She had a lot of she had several college degrees very accomplished person and Coming through some of the the philosophical readings that that I'd done I was very much into kind of like the individual self-starting person like that really appealed to me And I even got to the point where I like during my software career where where I was working full-time and I had my own LLC I wanted to start my own business like that kind of entrepreneurial Self-motivation like I really I really love that and so I saw I saw this person Who I was dating and then and then got married to and I was like this person has these qualities because she has these degrees and she's not a fairly high-powered job and and I really look to her as being that kind of Self-motivated person which legitimately believe that those are good qualities to look for Yeah, 100% absolutely And Yeah But is the years one is the years went on What I noticed is that there was this that was that was kind of like her public persona but then the private persona was very much like She she wanted a degree of dependence on me for either material goods or emotional sport or whatever There was this and it seemed to me to be contradictory This this two kinds of personas and I didn't know what to do with that Because my persona was more like the ex my expectation was always oh a marriage is going to be equal Both people are going to show the weight for both things You know there's very kind of egalitarian idea of marriage this very this idea that you can take the roles of Husband and wife and you can just apply them like peanut butter to bread and it spreads evenly like that's that's how I really looked at it My roles are like homogenized like the same thing basically. Yeah, it's like we'll we'll split that we'll split the the career driven bread-winning type of Responsibilities, but we'll also split the housework and domestic responsibilities like I I totally really believe that and I know a lot of people do So then you get in you get into the place where or at least I did where that just was not working at all Like both of us were very unhappy fundamentally unhappy And so I started I started looking like what what what am I missing here? What's wrong? And that took me to places on the internet That I was not comfortable going like like the red red The red pill subreddit and all these all these crazy men talking about all these misogynistic ideas And I'm like what what I don't even know what I'm reading at this point. What is this? But I kept going because I was like, you know what I have to have I have to be able to go to places where I'm reading stuff that I've never been taught because all the stuff I have been taught all the The traditional lines that you're you're given all the traditional wisdom that's imparted to you as a as a young boy growing up None of that's working like it's all making me miserable And so so I had to go to those those places and read the material and I read For several years solid just red and red and red I'm proud to say I have gone through the entire red pill subreddit sidebar I checked off every item on that sidebar, which included a rollo's book rational male and in You know basically tons of articles from from his blog So I started reading this and I realized that I was in a fundamentally broken Relationship and I should back up a little bit actually the first thing I read was not so when I got into the red pill subreddit the first thing I read was Apple Kay's book married man married man sex life primer. I think is what it's called Okay, and he's kind of gone since since I've read that he's kind of gone really purple pill from what I understand So he's not he's not really red pill, but this book specifically is Red pill principles applied to marriage because my goal was to save the marriage I if it could have been if it could be saved. That's what I wanted to do. So I was like How can I change myself? Is it possible to change myself to be a person that can can Perform in this marriage and potentially save it so read his book and it was fantastic and I started to apply Some of the changes that he talked about And I and I think it's important to at this point is to say that I Was pretty driven in my career like like you were talking about earlier. I've been very successful. I've done very well But that's why I totally believe you going dying item by item down the checklist on the sidebar And just like I'm going to conquer all of the information. Yes. Yeah, and that's how I always approach my career It's just like yeah, I'm a sponge and I'm just gonna soak everything in that I that I possibly can well It's also very it's very orderly and it's like very It seems very masculine in a sense or at least like Ultralogical and like the deductive logic that we use right you're trying to master something You're trying to master something so you're gonna deep dive understand all the principles understand how things work and go from there Yep problem is that I Had the career step down. I knew how to do that. I didn't know how to take care of myself personally as Masculine human being and then how to take care of the woman who Really was under my care and I didn't realize it and so that deficiency Damn, that's let's just pause for a second. That's like Holy shit For a guy, I can imagine. Did you really so you came to that that epiphany or that conclusion when you were still married? Yeah That's fucking intense man. Yeah, it just started. It just started really occurring to me because I had got I I had And I'm not proud to say this But I had gained a ton of weight. I was a heavy. I was a heavy drinker and I used to I used to veg out video games all the time things that were escape Escapism basically and the idea was that I knew my psychology my in the back of my head There was that voice that's saying you're miserable because something's not right and because I didn't know what it was It was kind of like when Nathaniel Brandon talks about in his books on psychology I mean you're basically I'm gonna gonna repress this and you're gonna repress this and the more you repress it the more Neurotic you get in order to deal with neuroticism. You have to escape. Yep So that was all happening and and and being miserable in the relationship and being self-destructive that way And that's when I and that's really what I decided I needed to I needed to fix myself I needed to figure out what's wrong and When I really you know when I came to realize like what my role should be and how I needed to change myself It really began to dawn on me that I that I believe some really bizarre things like this idea of One of the one of the key things I learned is that there's no real such thing as relational equity Which is something that nice guys and I think a lot of men who are raised nowadays Who come up in our generation buy into and it's the idea that if you're doing something in the relationship being a doer as a man Is going to be what gets a woman to like you and be attracted to you and feel arousal for you Kind it's more the provisioner. I'm the provisioner or I'm a hard worker or whatever And she should be attracted me for that and when I realized that that wasn't the case You know being so good in my career like I have that kind of expectation There's gonna be a relational equity here. I you know, I'm earning them more money. I put all that money into stuff for us vacations, whatever Home improvements doing things like that new cars, whatever Well, I'll say it's these are bizarre ideas because they are bizarre, but they're also very common right right It's not normal, but it's common. I think is a kind of we look for right It's bizarre in hindsight It's bizarre in hindsight because it makes total sense to me now that you know you know a woman's affection for a man and her arousal her feelings of arousal towards a man are Are far more impacted by how that man presents himself I mean she wants the best she can get and she wants a man with with confidence. She wants a man who looks good Well, she wants she wants like better than she can get she wants like one step above that, right? Right, right. Well, yeah, exactly, but her mind that's still the best She she's shooting and she will always shoot. She will always shoot higher and that's exactly You know that makes perfect sense You want the most for your money in whatever venture you're you're going to going to be in so so when I realized that it was basically like this Coming to this this come to Jesus moment where it's like well I've really kind of run my own personal life into the ground and that is really a Fundamental point of arousal and attraction to my mate and then perhaps the reason that I'm so miserable Is because I've done this to myself and I haven't even realized it Yeah, so I started putting some red pill principles in action started doing like self-improvement You know really working on Myself bettering myself Figuring out what it meant to be masculine in in essence. What was what it? What is the unique properties that men have that women don't have what is the differentiating characteristics and how can I how can I start maximizing those those differentiations? Well, this is a wrong thing. I mean, it doesn't sound like you respect diversity very much. It sounds like you're just I'm just trying to troll you just You get fired from wherever you were if you worked in California you'd be instantly fired But see I look at it the other way like this is actually the appreciation of diversity. Oh, of course It's appreciating that men and women have defining characteristics that separate them but also are where their strengths and Weaknesses are going to be that are complementary and it's like you your life perspective is going to be defined by How you're defining characteristics interact with the world around you my my I will never have a woman's perspective I just won't because I'm masculine and I the way I approach the world the way the world approaches me is Is in that in that vein, you know years ago people are asking a lot Why I don't do a convention for women and that was exactly even before the repel is that was exactly what I said I was like, I have no idea what it's like to be a woman. I can I can try to figure it out I can observe I can maybe talk to them about it You know, there's like little bits of pieces I can pick up But I'll never have you know the first-hand knowledge as what that's what Nathaniel would call it right right we share we share common humanity and We have empathy for each other bait, you know based on our common humanity, but as far as our defining characteristics go You know a guy with 70% more muscle mass is going to have a very different experience when it comes to moving heavy shit Then is then his girlfriend or his wife will I mean if that's just that's the way it's gonna be a man I mean as that's seen as offensive and it's it's diverse to be like based in reality Therefore it's offensive is like the line of thinking people go through now, right, right? the other the other key idea was was that the polarity between those differences Capitalizing on those differences increases arousal And as a man as a man, it's like at the top of your list I mean, it's like with the few things you want or it is a sex and food and Maybe a little bit of diversion or a little bit of alcohol or something like that, you know That's like that's like the top three things sleep is in there somewhere I suppose You know, but I was very important and it's like how do you facilitate that? How do you get a woman? or reach into her core and Provoke those feelings of arousal and you know being in and and and my marriage suffered horribly because there was in terms of the sexual Relationship because I didn't know how to do that and she didn't know how to tell me what I was missing Because that you just you're like a fish and water you you just kind of assume the world around you is Correct and it wasn't and so neither of us knew neither of us knew and this was this caused so many problems So started applying red pill principles and I was like can this actually Can I actually say this? Can it be saved and I did that for a couple of years just growing through it It was a very it was very clumsy. It was very Still broken, but I was you know making progress working on myself working on how I approached our relationship trying to break bad habits trying to be more assertive and dominant in the sense that I was making decisions first and And saying this is what we're gonna do and then if she said I have some input on that then I'd be like, okay great Let's hear your input But really being the one to take the reins because every yeah, and I think I think men in relationships know this They ask, you know, they ask their girlfriend. Well, where do you want to go to eat? She's always gonna say well, where do you want to go to eat? I'll just talk to sales going circles I don't know where you are. Yeah, and and and that was a lesson I learned early is Start phrasing things in the imperative in a decisive way Just say we are gonna do this or I am gonna do this have a plan and if she has Input on it. She'll just tell you most of the time. She's like, okay, great. That's fine That's awesome. And she loves that. She doesn't have to make that decision You know because it's not something she's interested in really exciting but but seeing that confidence and seeing that That assertiveness, you know really affects the way a woman looks at a man and So those things had some positive impacts in the marriage but after a couple of years It was still apparent to me that that it was still broken and that I was still Drowning and trying to learn how to swim at the same time and you can't do that. You cannot do that damn And so I started thinking this is this is probably gonna end I'm probably gonna have to end this it's it's fair. That's the fair thing to do because I don't want to I can't drag this on It's not it's not fair to me. It's not right to me and it's not fair right to her so You know, I got some legal advice from an attorney I started basically getting all my things in order figuring out how assets would be be divided figuring out what a Fair arrangement was gonna be we didn't have kids. So that was off the tape You know, that was something that wasn't gonna affect us Our our debts and assets were pretty well buttoned up So there wasn't gonna be any big drag-out fights And I told you this before like I I was sad because I actually do respect like her family I still do her father or her dad like my ex-father-in-law I have a tremendous amount of respect for him because it's very great that old-school masculine the previous generation who still had the The kind of that imperative personality still the go-getter. He's the career man He worked at you know, he was at his job for 40 years worked up into high management very respected by all of us He was in engineering too, right? Yeah, he's an engineer You know, so my biggest thing was in this arrangement I actually wanted to please him more with the arrangement than I wanted to please her if that makes sense Which sounds strange, but I really I wanted the arrangement to be such that I could at least have his respect like well This you know my my my little girl's husband is is is cutting ties here is leaving the family But he's done it in such a way that there's still a better level of respect You didn't want him showing up your door with a shotgun like boy. Yeah, exactly. No fucking doing my dog Exactly and and he brought you know if it could have happened, but no he He wasn't happy, but you know, my ex did tell me that it was that Yeah So and part of how you did that you told me was you created like an Excel sheet and you just for him Specifically and just you know light I know my light I don't want through like every little thing between you and her Yep, all of our assets all of our our fit tangible property over a certain dollar amount All of our all of our liabilities everything was just that's incredibly thorough. I like it Yeah, well, I want and I wanted to make sure like be and like you said a lot of guys do get screwed over Because they don't because they don't think things through before they pull the trigger and I needed to be able to do that You know and I and I and I had the time the system is also set up to where if you don't do what you did You most likely will get screwed, right? I mean did you say did you you recognize that reading Red Pill to there, right? I mean yeah, there's a curtain lots of stories and the Red Pill subreddit about guys who had you know various kinds of experiences through through marriage or even even now through marriage You just with girlfriends and stuff like that Like I for example I told you this story earlier and I'll repeat it here. So a couple of weeks ago So I have a girlfriend now and we've been seeing each other for a little less than two years But we were out at a bar the other day having some drinks just chilling out having a good time and A guy a couple of a couple of seats down from us just starts up a conversation and he asks out of the blue What do you guys think of marriage? And I'm like, oh, well, this is I was like prepare yourself. I have a story for you. I Know the situation. Well, let me tell you let me tell you buddy Yeah, so so we're talking about it in his situation But as the reason he asked this because he had just gotten done writing a dissertation on the child support laws in Missouri because he had had two sons by a previous girlfriend Who he had solely looked after for four years And then one day he gets pulled over by a cop and the cop says there's a warrant out for your arrest a felony warrant For your arrest because you haven't paid child support and he's like what are you talking about? I don't I don't have to pay child support. I've always looked after my kids So we had to go through this entire legal process that took months and months and months Before he finally got a judge to dismiss the charges because the the boys had always lived with him He'd always taken care of them, but she went and saw it child support from you a child support Injunction against him even though she wasn't looking after the boys. So and well, let's let's clarify too She not only went after she not only pursued that she got it Yes, that that that's a point that I think is easy to miss like had he sought that I'm skeptical about what happened It does happen, but it's like super rare, right, right I know I've known one woman ever to actually pay child support and as any garnish out of her wages because she you know refused to pay it and shit Right, right. So so I'm like sitting there, you know my girlfriend and I have talked about Marriage and I I have no desire to get married again. I have a desire for a family I have a desire to be close and intimate with a woman I think you know, that's what I want in my future, but I'm not I'm you know I'm not tying myself legally to someone. I don't want shared dad. I don't want shared The legal kind of dependency beyond maybe having children and whatever is required for them to make sure that they're taken care of So we've talked about this and here's this guy basically confirming everything that I've been talking with my girlfriend about and I'm like, I could This is a guy could have paid, you know, she she probably thinks I paid him off to sit here and talk to us Yeah, there's those it was a really interesting experience So you're not so you're not opposed to a lot of things that are normally associated with marriage But you are opposed to the legal entanglements, which are like, yeah Which at this point or I see them as suicidal like it absolutely Ultra high-risk and like insane is that that's kind of where you're veering with this, right? Yeah It's more like well, it's more like Russian roulette, right? Yeah, there are there are women who you know My ex was we had a pretty Safe pretty clean cut divorce. She didn't come after me for crazy stuff or whatever You know, I consider myself really lucky and I'm very thankful that you know That she was that good of a person that that was not an issue and I and I actually was seeing another gal a couple years ago Or this was after the divorce obviously Who also had been divorced and they had a and actually this is another interesting story so she and her husband went to court represented themselves in court and They had decided on the split the husband was gonna take most of their assets because he had the high-earning job He had paid for pretty much everything. She was cool with that the judge Sat there and tried to get her to screw him over Saying that he was entitled to more of this and she she kept saying no She's like this is what we brought to the table This is how our marriage was and they weren't married for a trivial amount of time It was a while and she's like she said this is what I'm comfortable leaving with it's fine She was so angry at this judge. See you do have you do have a woman out there who recognized the injustice of that Look at the judge. I mean, holy shit. That's like white nighting like on steroids. Yeah, exactly. Lot of steroids white nighting from the bench Yeah, yeah Yeah, no no one and no one proposed. He did that he just went out an issue Just yeah, I'll do that like let me jump in there and fuck things up for you a little bit Holy shit, dude, right in my understanding too is that family court is and and the gentleman I was talking to at the bar confirmed this is kind of its own beast in terms of the latitude that judges actually have for the whole process like it's not it's not this unbiased impartial system that is going to put the blind like justice should put the blindfold on and Actually ask critical questions. It's very much full of bias and very much whatever the judge feels like needs to happen It's gonna happen. So whatever influenced his life up to that point is gonna dictate what the fuck happens, probably, right? So to answer your question. Yeah, I'm not opposed like I mean, I mean human beings have been getting together and having families and raising children for ever That's that's so I'm not opposed any of that. I am opposed to putting a having a legal gun put to your head Where there is no actual protection for you. Yeah, I like to you put it in as Russian roulette It's like that is accurate But why would you play it? I don't know why What's the point right and any more that there's probably more bullets in the chamber than there are empty Empty spots in the chamber. So, you know, yeah, not taking that risk but at the same time it's like You thought of so when so I first met you at the under 21 convention last year short two-day event for young guys You were not under 21 obviously when you attended, but I told everyone totally cool to come and attend I'm glad I'm very glad you didn't need to Supremely glad to be honest to put it lightly What did you think at that time or I don't even know if you were aware of it up to that point But obviously I avoided legal entanglements in my former wedding marriage thing. I did private marriage Were you aware of that or how did you do that at the time? Was that interesting or Talk to you about it much. Yeah, it was interesting and I had I had not heard of private marriage, although My my political leanings are basically remove as much control from the state as possible And so the idea of private marriage. I've always I've always thought that marriage should be a private affair So when you said there are when you talked about actual avenues for exercising that that really did pique my interest I haven't done a lot of looking into it yet And it is one thing that I would look into especially if I was you know I do want children and they would be in the mix and if that's it if that's a good avenue for protection Or another thing is like medical issues, you know a lot of hospitals have criteria that you have to be married or have a legal relationship to Another person in order to have visitation rights and stuff like that So if that's a way to solve some of those problems without the legal entanglements without having the you know The family court hover over your head with a guillotine Then yeah, I would definitely be interested in and looking at that and I will you know I have to admit too I did find it hysterical that you weren't aware at that time that her and I had split up So you were just like sitting in the audience like holy shit. What the fuck? Yeah The whole time the whole time I was thinking I was thinking I thought yeah, Mary. Yeah, I you know Where where is she and then and then you got up and gave you a present She must be on vacation. Where is she and I and it was like I could hear my jaw hit the floor like it was I was like, how did I not know this I hadn't talked much about it. I think of that did I a little bit on social media, but not otherwise not much I kind of saved it all For that presentation. So yeah, I was very that was really put a grin on my face. I was like, oh, he had no idea No idea Nope So tell me a little bit more about how you found where so you found the red pill separate It was that before the 21 convention or after or how did that work as before? So when I attended the under 21 convention, I had been that what one was that june June 2016. Yeah. Yeah, so I had been divorced for about Seven months. I suppose eight months, maybe So I found that the red pill separate it probably two years before maybe Yeah, yeah, that would have been about right And I had started reading a lot of books I read Robert Glover's no more mr. Nice guy, which was a big help because he does talk about the the the relational equity idea comes out of a deficiency that nice guys have where They do not ask or pursue aggressively what they want when I say aggressively I just simply mean going after it not being You know not not taking advantage of people and stopping on them or whatever But what they do in turn is they do nice things for people with the unspoken expectation that they will get what they need or want in return And so Robert Glover's book really helped to pop that That idea plus the relational equity idea in my head And I realized that that was something that I had grown up with and I think part of it was I you know my My mother was the it was a dominant figure in the household And my my siblings and I have talked about this extensively. We all agree that this is the case A very domineering figure and you know, so in turn So if you had a problem with with the family or if you felt like you were being Emotionally neglected or emotionally abused you were not free to say anything like that That just she she couldn't handle that she was not stable emotionally stable in those areas And um that that created a lot of basically repression and all of us and we've all had to deal with that And that you know in in men's but you have a unique relationship to your mother Um, especially as a firstborn, which I was that ends up producing a kind of nice guy syndrome Where you assume that just by doing things to make other people happy make your mother happy You will in turn get that kind of reciprocal affection and you end up taking that lesson into your the other areas of life When in reality you should be like this is what I want. This is what I need I'm going to pursue this myself And if you're not the type of person who is going to Who I can get along with and who is also reciprocal, you know reciprocating that affection without me having to give you something Um, then then that's not a healthy type of relationship But you need to be you need to be happy and content yourself So you carry that into a marriage you carry that into a having a girlfriend or whatever And that's uh, it's a recipe for for disaster basically a lot of guys who carry it into multiple relationships One after another after another until right finally gets snagged or something and women detect this They detect that neediness and they'll they'll be like, you know, they don't want to be a mother figure Um to you The panties dry up the panties dry up exactly and that's and that's totally correct um So robert glover's book another big, uh Book that I read was um s revealers manipulated man um, which she was uh, uh, I want to say, um I want to say austrian, but that might not be right. Um, but german she's I think she spoke german So she could have been either war. Yeah, I can't remember. I could be wrong in this, but I think that's what it is Yeah, um, but she had a critique of feminism and but she also had a critique of men that was particularly good And she was basically like look she's she's like men are stupid. They let uh They let women set up all these rules and then they jump through hoops, um hoping to get You know something from these women in the end And she's like that that never works. So like that's not what that's not what arousal or attraction is based on I meant her stupid because of it. I was like, well, okay. Yeah, she asked her you've got me there. Um, so that was I think black label logic actually talks about how this happens and it is ridiculous But there's a whole like Sequence of events that this goes on in our heads. Yeah, even though you're not getting you're you're getting contradictory feedback to what you're doing It's not working. You just keep doing it. Anyway, right, right and then and you know there And I don't think I don't think every woman's out there setting up this these traps for men like that I think you know, it's it's the worst of the worst are out there and they know what they're doing Like they're conscious of it Um, but you know, I think what I think what what women want is a guy who already knows his own direction And if he doesn't know his own direction, she's going to set up the breadcrumbs for you But they're going to be according to her frame of reference and her personal desires and goals Um, and she's never going to be content with you doing things just to please her that's a placating supplicating kind of approach to a woman and and She doesn't want that she doesn't want that from from a man that does not what attracts her Um, she has her she has her own needs and her own and and if you're doing that you're not actually meeting Giving her or what she needs so that that kind of blew my mind too when when I read a s revealer's book It was like, oh that that's that's that's true How exactly did you find the 21 convention that was it from the red pill subreddit? Did they link a video or something like that? No, actually, so the way I found the 21 convention is that you have had on in and Previous conventions certain people from like the iron rain institute like eric daniel Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, and so I and so I being interested in philosophy I was looking at some of these some of these speakers who don't usually you don't usually see them Getting a prominent platform on youtube. They're just you know, iron rain objective them not that popular right now not that popular But but they did they have these great presentations I watched their stuff and from that I started watching the rest of the 21 convention videos which dovetailed right into The reading I was doing in the red pill subreddit the books I was reading and so I was like it just expanded my universe a whole lot Even though at that point I was completely oblivious almost completely oblivious to the red pill enrollers work almost 99% unaware of it Yeah, but I saw I saw them as very much converging because Yeah, they were it was my primary concern was how do I how do I be? How do I be masculine? How do I be a real man? How do I fill a role? That Will meet a woman's needs and that will also in turn have my needs met and needs met and so those two things converged I mean almost flawlessly I saw him as being just basically two sides of the same coin Well at this point, I mean you are the one I keep saying responsible for now the ultimate convergence point Which is the event coming up our 10 year anniversary Where we have like the whole deck of stack towards red pill speakers like between you leading me to rollo And then red pill and rollo helping me piece together these other speakers. It's like It's like the world's first red pill summit in a sense. It is the first multi-day one Yeah, and and I am super excited. I mean all pretty much all the speakers or most of the speakers that you have on the lineup are either People that I've read their books or articles or that I maybe follow on social media There were a few that you had that um I had you know that I didn't know about and so I've been following them since the speaker announcement has come out There's just such a rich treasure trove of Of wisdom. It's like every day on my social media feed Um, I basically see two things One I see people screeching about current events and getting hysterical and then I see these men Who are saying here's how you be better. Here's how you take life by the by the horns Here's how you actually be a man Here's here's how you establish for yourself the calm and the storm And so I have that on the one hand the calm and then I have the craziness that's going on the world Is the storm. Yeah, I'm like this is this is perfect like this is exactly what I need Let's actually we're running out of time. You need to get going soon. Let's kind of wrap up Uh, so you've you've lived and worked in the world of technology for a long time at least getting your age a really long time What was your first response? And then what are your current thoughts on the James DeMort thing with google? Like you're obviously you have you have insight into both both the red pill kind of issues he brought up At least in his own way which weren't really that intense and then also Technology and like working that field. What was I like just watching that unfold? right, so right now the tech industry is very much buying into the what I call the cult of diversity And I call it the cult of diversity because it's almost this blind belief that just simply varying The amount varying the kinds of knowledge or the kinds of ideas in a particular setting produces something good which I don't know why people think that because if you have a bunch of people with a variety of bad ideas You're not going to produce something good. You know what I'm saying produce the disgusting cocktail nonsense Yeah, it's it's about the ideas and the quality ideas that has nothing to do with but that's another that's another So when I saw his when I saw his memo, I knew exactly why why he had written it I've seen a lot of this stuff in just You know i'm in the midwest it's a little more settled in the middle midwest There's not as much craziness as there is on the coasts with you when you have these giant tech companies like Facebook or amazon or google But there is some of that here that goes on and So so what everyone looks at is they say why they ask the question Why are there more men by a large margin in technology and in computer programming Than there are women and there are two ways to look at that Roughly one is the well women have been discouraged and discriminated against because men don't want them in their club That's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that for whatever reasons women their interest in computers and in technology Is not that's not where they're directing their interest and so they're they just don't go into these fields because they're they're They're interested in other things. So those are two kind and that was what james the more that was that was his Point his way of looking at it was saying Women aren't interested So we shouldn't have these artificial programs to try and shove them into something they aren't interested in But then he offered the solution where he was like, let's make programming more interesting to women So they come in naturally which everyone ignored Except for the people who actually read the memo and were honest about it Um, but every everyone ignored that they jumped on the ebocyte stuff that he talked about Uh, how men and women may be biologically different whatever Oh, no run for the get the pitchforks Grab the torches and burn them alive right and you know, I've read I've read articles by um A variety of women who have been in tech some women say, you know what I have no I've never had a problem in tech. I got him because I loved it. My dad taught me about computers when I was a kid I've always loved it. Um, it's been a passion of mine Never had a problem with men Then you have other women who are like well, I got in and it was just this tumultuous experience and I I didn't know what I was doing In in terms of um being able to navigate the the maleness of this space or whatever See you do have these competing these competing views on that In my personal experience Every woman I've ever worked with in tech Has been smart wanted to be there and got things done and I've had I've had fantastic experiences You know, but they wanted to be there and they were and they were doing the work that they really enjoyed doing Programming you enjoyed it is because of your male privilege your white male privilege So I don't know if you were aware of that or not. You must not be you must have forgotten Wait, I'm white and male. What? No Oh, and so so and there's this article that's been going around it's been going around for a while And the just the article is that in in the mid 1980s something fundamentally changed in in computers that caused women to Flee the the technology space and there's a graph in this chart in this article and it shows the Participation of women in the computer sciences increasing up into the mid 80s and then dropping off and the article's conclusion is that the The reason that this happens is because For some reason computer companies the personal computers introduced and computer companies start marketing exclusively to to boys and men And the computer seen as a toy for boys and that discourages women from from using computers Um, I don't know what the what the evidence is based on, you know, I've not seen anything like that Any any kind of advertising that was specifically directed to to men and boys, but I started thinking well What could be an alternative? What could be alternatives to this explanation? Um, and I got to go here in just a second, but I want to give two two potential alternatives one is that When the personal computer was introduced it used to be when you when you program computers people were in a big room and they were working collaboratively together to Create programs on punch cards and then they had to put those into a computer and wait for a long amount of time The programming was a social event Um when a personal computer was introduced programming became a solitary event. I work from home. I got to talk to anybody all day Um, I'm you know other than on you know, I am or whatever I'm sitting on my keyboard and and you know, I'm typing code and this is very focused thing for hours on on end That takes a particular type of personality to be able to or to even want to do that. So that's one possible Scenario one possible reason that that women might not be as Interested in tech they they do want want to and excel at it too I mean, there's a two those are two separate issues not only the interest, but then actually doing really really well at it or having a Perhaps like a biological inclination to be able to do that for such long long long solitary hours right, right Let's break that up. Yeah, and the other the other Possibility is that you start seeing the rise of tech companies Microsoft apple and and the tech industry explodes in order to have an exploding industry You have to have long hours You have to have people working very very long hours and I can't tell you how many times I have had to pull midnight shifts to deploy production into production at full applications or whatever Fig bug fixes emergency bug because you get called in the middle of the night all this stuff So it became a very strenuous type of job to get into So you have to also be the type of person who's okay with that And who can put up with that which I did for a while and then I realized I didn't want anything to do with that I started trying to make career choices to put me in places where I I wouldn't have to deal with that That's just not but there are people who thrive on it And and and the women I've met they uh, who are who have been in tech have been very much like Um, no, I want to go home. I want to be with my family Which is what I want to if you know, I don't want to work long hours Well, they're only saying that because the patriarch be told him to say that it brainwashed them I don't know if I don't know if you're worried that or not. So yeah, they can't they can't make their own that Own value judgments and decisions about what's right in life. It's like it's like the judge, right? No, you need more than you realize from the from your husband. We're gonna we're gonna I'm gonna help you Don't worry. Right. The government is here to help right exactly. So so those are two possible explanations I don't know if they're right. I haven't I haven't looked at the data But to me it's like you can't you can't take a bus feed article with a chart on it and be like Oh, well, this is gospel truth, you know, I think I think james demore. I think he I think he's hitting on something whether it's completely true 100 true or it's only partially true You can't you can't look at it and look at the body of scientific evidence that he's talked about and summarily dismiss it And you can't call the man a misogynist. You just scientists misogynistic. I mean, did you not know that? Right. That's right We invented it to oppress the lesser the lesser gender Yep We got on our petri dishes and our beakers and said, you know, I don't know we're gonna create a monster Um, I think you got to get going, right? It's uh, yeah Dude nick, I appreciate your time everything you do with me now has been so helpful You know from day one introduce me into the red pill rolls work I look forward to seeing you again in a few weeks and Orlando, florida Thanks for your input on the various issues, too. We talked about today and sharing your experience Absolutely. Thank you, anthony Cool. I'll see you later, man. I'm gonna wrap up on the video here. So all right guys now it's just me Nick's gone. Thanks for tuning in live to the stream today. I appreciate it And make sure you come out to the 21 convention 2017 coming up this year in Orlando, florida It's about five and a half weeks out If that it's going to be September 28th to October 1st in Orlando, florida And you can get tickets in the video description underneath the link or underneath the uh, you know the video So it's you know, open the box. Click it. There you go Also, you're going to type it in at the 21 convention dot org dot org Thanks. See you guys soon in Orlando, florida and I'll see you soon on the channel in the next stream