 Welcome to Economics and Beyond. I'm Rob Johnson, President of the Institute for New Economic Thinking. I'm here with Dr. Fatima Denton. She's the Director of the Institute of National Resource in Africa at United Nations University in Ghana. Fatima, thanks for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you, Rob. I have Fatima, I just by way of background and history, we met at a dinner in the Ivory Coast. She was a panelist in an Inet event at the Moe Ibrahim annual convention. I just thought you were so illuminating both at the dinner and on the panel that I turned to Camilla in full a shot. I said, this person has to be a member of the Commission on Global Economic Transformation. And I'm glad you accepted our invitation and under the leadership of Nobel laureates Mike Spence and Joseph Stiglitz. They're very, very focused plans on the priority of development in Africa. And I'm very happy because I know you will make a very significant contribution. Today, we are talking in July of 2020, amidst the pandemic. And there are many, many issues related to African development, the pandemic, climate change, how would I say, the unmasking of ideas. I saw that you had given a lecture called the Alexander Kwa-Pong lecture. And the title was Nature Speaks, Where Africa and Independent Thinking Come Together. Such a promising title that you chose, first of all, reinforces my enthusiasm for working with you on the global commission, but also as a member of this podcast community. And so I guess, without trying to, how you say, direct traffic, I'm curious, what have you seen? What do you find that is troubling, illuminating, creates potential possibilities? What have you seen you didn't like? What have you not seen that you would like to urge the world to embrace? Thank you. Thank you, Rob. Well, I think, first of all, what I have seen, if we're talking about our immediate context of the COVID-19 world, the world seems to have been more or less imposed on us by a very violent virus. And that seems like it's not going anywhere too soon. It is a solidarity, I think, that I have never seen in a long time or probably haven't seen it before. I think that nations are talking to each other. People are talking to themselves and to each other. And solutions have been identified. And I think that's actually the way it should be, because no one country can insulate itself within its borders. And I think there's one thing that this pandemic has actually revealed is the fact that we do live in a global village. And therefore, this being a global village, a lot of the issues that we will have to grapple with must be done in that way that is inclusive, that draws people closer. And that we can't really silo the responses. I mean, the pandemic also has shown us that the problems are not just one-dimensional. They're not health-related only. There are social problems. They're economic problems. They're problems that are related to environment and how we look after this planet. So I think that that's something that I'm sort of coming out of the pandemic in a way, thinking to myself that I wish we can take this very inspiring solidarity to many of the negotiation processes that we have been involved in. I wish we can borrow some of the principles of, you know, enlightened self-interest. And we can take them along with us when we're negotiating the Paris Agreement, because we've had 25, 26 odd years of negotiations and we don't seem to come as far as we should. So those are some things I'd say that I find exciting and hope that it's a lasting legacy of the pandemic. It has come at a cost, but at least we know that solidarity is possible and that, you know, it's when we do connect with each other, no matter where we are, that the true solutions emerge. It's an interesting thing that you say in light of, particularly in the advanced economies, there is so much which might call recoil from globalization, the kind of populist nationalism. Trying to, we might call unlink. I find this rather haunting myself in the context of the need for climate change, where the scope and scale of transformation in places like India, the African continent, China and even the United States doesn't just affect your own nation, it affects everyone. And so I think, and the other dimension though, I understand is that as Joe Stiglitz and Danny Roderick and our commission are working on, the notion, let's say started from the Treaty of Westphalia of the nation state and the tools it has in order to protect and enhance the life of its citizens take on a very, very different tone in a globalized nanosecond financial transfer, information transfer world. So I think there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of need to re-envision some of the architecture. But I agree with you that it's not time for nationalist retrenchment and decoupling when the possibilities from collaboration are both essential and beneficial. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it might still happen. We might still see nationalism rare inside the heads, that's still within the possible. But it is my hope that we will not go back to sort of that nationalistic approaches that we protectionism, we look inwards and to the detriment of the rest of the world. That is still, I think, a real possibility that as nations recover, they are so focused, might even say so obsessed with their recovery and how to arrive at that. But only that matters. And they go back to those sort of nationalistic tendencies that we see nationalism at the very start for a number of years now that we have been seeing. So that's still there. But my hope is that this has been a pandemic that has brought people together. So hopefully that togetherness, that inclusiveness will continue. Let's talk a little bit about how you say, illuminate the impact of the pandemic on the African continent. People have said to me, because of the younger demographic, that the dangers may not be quite as severe just given the nature of the virus and how it's affected older people. But in places like South Asia and Africa, the infrastructure, the health systems are not quite so fully developed. And I don't have a great deal of insight into what's happening in Africa. How do you see what's taking place? Yeah, I mean, I think to a large extent when the pandemic struck, there was a sense that for the first time, this is somebody else's problem. That was the wider perception, at least from where I sat. That was what I got. And I think as things continued, there was a realization that this is a global issue. And certainly the action and the prompt action that many Africans took, I think demonstrated that they were suddenly not waiting for the pandemic to sort of basically arrive on their borders. They wanted to find ways of ensuring that this was not going to be too big a problem for them to resolve. And so I think that there's been a decisiveness and a willingness to act on the part of African leaders. And I think that they acted quite, you know, in a hands-on way to really see how they can contain it. So all the borders, the restrictions, the lockdowns, etc., that was all done because they know that the health systems that we have in place is not fit for purpose. And that if the pandemic did happen in the way that it was forecasted in Africa, then, you know, this would be a really great situation because there was a sense that thousands and thousands of people would die. Some even went as far as saying millions of people could die. So there wasn't any sense of what might happen. But there was a sense that decision makers or policy makers did not want to be caught unprepared. And therefore, they had to really take the first pre-emptive strike to make sure that they were doing at least baseline preparation, you know, baseline prevention to ensure that they were not caught unawares. And so in a sense, I think the saving grace in Africa has been the young population because, as you know, this is a continent where, you know, most of the people are below 25 or 60 percent, I'd say, of the population of below 25 years of age. So it's a dynamic, vibrant, you know, sort of continent. And I think that that has been probably one of the reasons why fatalities have been quite low. But we are seeing numbers, numbers are sort of going up, you know, there's been quite a hike in countries where I am in Ghana, for instance, in South Africa. And in other parts of Africa. So we still haven't seen the full extent of the pandemic and how it might unfold in this part of the world. And as you said, the infrastructure that we have is nascent infrastructure and sometimes quite weak. And not often in strategic places where it needs to be health, education, etc. And so I think that's where the worry lies on the fragility of that infrastructure and the sense that, you know, if it does hit really badly, then, you know, governments and people would not be able to cope. And how would I say, do you think there is any advantage from the onset or the acceleration of the pandemic here being later than, say, in China, Asia, United States, Italy and France? Are there lessons to be learned, how would I say, from the mistakes these other regions have made? I certainly think so. I mean, there seems to be a great deal of consultation that's taken place between African leaders themselves and in their different regional organizations. It is certainly the case that ECOWAS, which is the, you know, West African community of West African states, are talking to each other. So a lot of the decisions on border closure, lockdowns or even reopening the borders I think have made at that level, at the level of air course. And I think they've got the ice peeled on what's happening in the rest of the world. And, you know, African Europe have had long years of history together, you know, colonialism and all of that. But now there are also market relations between these two continents. I think there's generally a sense that, you know, they need to keep their eyes peeled. The pandemic is having a huge impact on the economy. There are many economies that are seriously affected and almost on a limb. Especially those economies that are, the revenue base is very much dependent on, you know, hydrocarbons. And you've seen what's happened on the world, you know, in the global arena where the oil prices have come down. So I think from that perspective they are sort of talking to each other and they are quite in tune with what's happening in Europe and they're learning from that. I certainly think that a lot of the precaution about, you know, the sanitation and the hand washing and all of those things, I think we're accelerated. They were actually very thorough. The whole issue about mask, the wearing of mask, I actually felt that those were lessons that we're done in Africa more so than anywhere else. Because I felt that, you know, people in England, for instance, we're not as rigorous on the mask wearing that they're here. In Ghana, you can't go into stores if you do not wear masks. There is a notice outside that say, you know, no mask and no entry. So I actually think that there was a heavy sort of response that was put in place just because they wanted to be maybe a few steps ahead of the rest of the world. Because they did not want to get in a situation where they are in so much bother that they are unable to address this situation and the pandemic. So I think that, yes, there were some lessons that we learned from the rest of the world. I think I guess the sense that I have in the West is that there is this tension between protecting human life and spurring the economy. And by spurring the economy, we take more risks of the loss of human life because of the proximity of people in the workplace. And this is obviously tied into the moral conflicts related to inequality, because those people who have less means are the ones that are forced out into taking the risk in the workplace. But I think this raises a very powerful tension because I was trained as an economist. And we were taught that the economy is a tool, is a means to the end of human well-being. But we are now seeing in the United States in particular a lot of pressure on the part of elected officials to resurrect the economy at the risk of an acceleration of deaths related to COVID-19. I know you have a much more, what you might call supple and broad education, both with regard to the arts and literature and and the natural sciences than a traditional economist. And I wonder how you see the ideology of economics falling short or breaking down and what kind of, I don't know what I would say, how you would reconcile this tension between economy and humanity. And I guess what I would add to that is that the whole nature of the credibility and trust in governance hangs in the balance. Yeah. Yes, I would agree to a large extent with that observation. I think the Ghanaian head state said it right. He said that we know how to bring the economy back to life. Well, we don't know how to bring people back to life. And I think that in a sense there was this sort of dichotomous situation that most leaders and countries found themselves in, you know, because it was obvious that economies were going to be badly bruised after this pandemic. And there was a sense that you could not sacrifice the economy. But at the same time, they were keen to see how you can protect life, how you can, you know, support infrastructure that would then also, you know, especially health infrastructure that would then serve as an anchor for people in regions like this where those infrastructures tend to be quite weak. But that said, I think that this dichotomy is often the false one, at least from my perspective, because I don't know what you would do for an economy if you do not have people at the very center of that economy. I think that I think in any economy, you do really need people, you know, you know, for any form of production, people are important. And I think this is why we are now talking about economies that are inclusive, because we have seen far too many examples of rapid growth. And rapid growth, whereby we are measuring everything in terms of GDP per capita, but we're not taking people along with us. I think in many countries in Africa, countries have been drawing, you know, up to a two digit figure. But, you know, Africa is also known to be one of the most unequal sort of regions in the world, you know. And so, you know, I fundamentally believe that our economic model, as it stands today, needs to be revamped and rethought and reimagined. Because this growth at all costs, you know, you know, sometimes doesn't really make sense. Are we going to sacrifice that for welfare and well being, you know, and what are the potential risks when we do that? In some parts of Africa, people felt that restrictions were quite stringent. Some would even say draconian to some extent. And to a large extent, maybe that would have helped serve in, you know, saving lives and, you know, protecting human welfare. And so, in many countries, you know, even though these are countries that are highly indebted, governments have actually gone out to provide a certain degree of safety nets, you know, providing food supplies to those that are, you know, on the periphery, I would say, the poorest. And, you know, utilities, we all know how energy poverty is a huge problem in Africa. So in countries like Ghana, for instance, you know, government has taken some steps to providing some support in terms of electricity supply, so that people do not have to worry about paying for something that they may not have the resources to do. That goes also for water. And water is important in this pandemic, because, you know, sanitation is key to how you could protect yourself from the virus, you know. So I think those things are all been done. And, you know, I'm sure it has an economic cost. But at the end of the day, I think those things have to be balanced also for the greater welfare of people. The thing that I find most troubling right now in the context that you just described is the role of governance. Because I use the phrase that you use, putting people first. In the United States in particular, but in many countries, large corporations and wealthy individuals have an extremely powerful influence over what I'll call social design. In the United States, the need to raise very large amounts of money for the, for re-election, over a billion dollars to run for president, I think refracts the system, which we call democracy, in ways that make it very difficult to put people first. We can put a few persons first who are the most wealthy and powerful. But the question, I guess, is also without broad-based representation and governance, a lot of the dimensions of sustainability, social sustainability, cannot be achieved. And at this point, the despondency among many people with regard to governance, it's not as if it's the government or the market. People view, in many ways, the government is captured by the market or those who succeed in the marketplace. And so in restoring faith in our future, what do we have to do with governance that allows us to put people first and create a broad-based prosperity and security for many people who inhabit the earth? Yeah, that is a tough one, Rob, in many ways, because many of us have been talking about the importance of revisiting the social contract and ensuring that, not that governments take a back seat, but they actually enable people to better themselves and to really prosper, but in a way that doesn't just have an economic value. You talked about social sustainability. And in a way, one of the things that this pandemic has also revealed, especially in Africa, is the value of kinship. Even though people had to social distance, but you very much rely on others, those sort of communal relationships that you are dependent on when you're sick, when you're not well in a context like this, and places where governments cannot get to, places where health systems are absent, people have to rely on each other. So in many ways, I think, and in many parts of Africa, it hasn't really been a question of governmental markets, because many people have come to rely on themselves. There are many cases where governments support, at times when it's even dire, when you need that support to draw on as part of that social contract, it is absent. It's not there. So I mean, I can see how when you juxtapose that in the North and what is happening in the industrialized countries and what is happening here, to some extent, I'd say there is a slight difference. Although this part of the world is not also immune to market considerations, governments have their eyes peeled on that. And as we speak, thinking about how they can revive their economies, and some of that might mean that a lot of the games that they had made in terms of containing the pandemic might be lost, because they do realize that they can't continue keeping people confined and locked down for a long time. So at some points, the economy and economic and market forces will win. But yeah, I mean, I think that I go back to those two words about social sustainability and about the value systems that we have in place, the trust that we can draw on, trust in ourselves, but also in our family relationships that we have in the communities that we have fostered and cultivated. And those are all the systems that we draw on in such cases. Like I said, in many parts of Africa, you would want to have governments supporting you in terms of cure and prevention, but that's not often there. So I think that this, for me, has been a very much also a lesson on how we have to find ways of harnessing those social support systems, because that's actually at the core of our humanity. And when we lose that, we lose everything. Yes, yes, that's well said. You are an expert in the realm of natural resources and obviously the question of climate and particularly in the equatorial regions around the continent of Africa or Southern Asia are, how do I say, places that are most affected by the rise in temperature. We've been talking a little bit now about governance and representation and putting people first. The question, I guess I'm asking is, has the pandemic diminished the urgency to address climate change? Because we're spending all kinds of fiscal resources on sustaining the economy, the banking systems, etc. Using up our fiscal capacity, I would say, is the way some people would describe it. And then on the other hand, are people displaced from work, staying home, becoming weary in the sense that a profound change in the energy structure that's necessary to address climate change involves very different patterns of living, patterns of commerce, etc. So some would argue that these factors will slow down the vigor with which society would embrace this very important agenda. Others would say, we've shown that the system isn't right, the need for collective action, the need for international global collective action is essential so that we don't exterminate life on earth. And because, which you might call the rigid ideologies of the market or whatever have been washed out to sea by the pandemic, we can now, with a call to action, rise to this challenge with more vigor than would have been possible before. Yeah. How do you see the balance here? And what is your vision of how we will achieve a sustainable environment and sustainable resource economy? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky situation, though, Rob. It is really tricky. So, you know, I often like to, when I'm asked about this question, think about it in a normative sense, whereby I hope, my hope is that the vigor that you've talked about, that the same vigor is revitalized in order to fight climate change because it is a fight. And we have come too far to sort of let our guard down. But there is a tendency, there might be, I should say, a tendency that, you know, on the political scan, the radar of most policymakers, they may not join the dots. They may not see COVID-19, climate action, and all of these things as a kind of, and we need to have a joined up thinking, whereby we say, how do we use this pandemic as an exercise in really getting our economies back to back together, but in a way that moves away from some of the unsustainable practices that we have seen in the past. And it's a real dilemma to some extent. And I have a sense that the climate change is a residual problem. It's actually even more than just a residual problem. It's actually very prominent. But my sense is that it hasn't gone away, but on the radar of most policymakers, it might not be as prominent now as it needs to be. And in reality, one could say that, you know, planet, climate change has been called a planetary emergency. And I do feel that where Africa is concerned to a large extent, I would say has been in an emergency ward for a long time on several issues, on climate change, on energy poverty, and now there is COVID-19. So I think that the sense that we can, we have to inject some vigor in our thinking, in our practices, in our plans of building back better, we need to look at the situation as one of opportunities. How do we think through using renewable energies as, you know, the mainstay of our economies? It is true that Africa is in a situation where many countries are very much reliant on hydrocarbon resources. And those resources are being stranded and might have to be left in the ground. And leaving them in the ground might have some consequences for these countries in Africa because their revenue base is dependent on the foreign exchange earnings because most countries in Africa, even the most reach, if you take Nigeria and Gola, Algeria, Libya, maybe not so much Libya these days, but these are countries that are very much reliant on hydrocarbon resources that they export. They don't have value, you know, so they have no, you know, they have a very limited number of oil refineries. So most of what they do, what they export is crude oil that's been exported to other parts of the world. And so to some extent, they have been shortchanged for a long time out of resources that they could have had had they, you know, put in place all the relevant infrastructure. So that's a dilemma because the world is now moving away from these fossil fuel resources and many African countries are basically reliant on these sources, including those that have just discovered oil and gas. But they have to realize that this might be a crash course to start thinking about green trajectories, green solutions. Looking at, as I mentioned, renewable energy, the continent has, you know, a lot of potential in solar energy, wind energy, geothermal, you know, and taking advantage of that, even with all the, you know, because these are not also the perfect choices. They have, there are problems related to storage and capacity when you talk about solar energy, etc. But they are solutions. They could make up a menu of solutions. And I think that's where countries need to be. They need to start looking at what is it in their arsenal of solutions that they can tap into? And how do they build back better with that in mind? But I think the rest of the world also need to be somewhat patient with Africa and realize that, you know, Africa's part in this environmental mess that we find ourselves in is quite limited, you know. Its share of carbon greenhouse gas emissions is very limited, less than 5%. In terms of the carbon budget and what we have got left, you know, most African countries are not going to be able to enjoy that carbon budget because three quarters of it is already used up. But I think even with that in mind, you know, most countries would not want to have to develop and then come back later to clean clean after themselves. You know, so now is a time to do things right and doing things right would mean that, you know, the world needs to be, you know, patient and indulgent with Africa because these solutions are not going to come overnight. Some of them may need to be tried and tested. Very often infrastructure and the skill sets that are needed are not homegrown. So these are real issues that need to be tackled in as much as we're looking for solutions. You have to talk about how you start thinking about homegrown solutions that would support many African countries in that trajectory of going green, you know, of adopting a cleaner pathway and bigger vitality, all the words that you've mentioned are fundamentally important. I'm interested in, given the breadth of your education and what you might call the emotional and intellectual muscles you have cultivated through all of your time and training, what you see as the core failing of economics. Right, so my response would be slightly measured because I'm coming at it from a non-economic sort of perspective and I can only offer some sort of layman explanation or at least observation. At least from my understanding I feel that economics have not been very useful in predicting some of these big sort of global planetary disruptions that we have seen. I mean this probably was a big one to predict or to forecast but certainly when you look at the financial crisis that we have seen, many of those were not predicted in quite the manner that they have unfolded. So I think that that has sort of, maybe I think not helped in terms of what might be an antidote to these disruptions. So we haven't been able to prepare or to bounce back in quite the way that you would when you know that something is about to come. So I think that's one and I think that in that sort of absence of predictions or absence of forecast I think we have been severely tested even in this one because it seems to me that whether it's rich or poor we simply haven't worked out the right and this is an infrastructure issue. It might be hardware, software, whatever you call it but we simply haven't been able to come up with the right level of preparedness and another pandemic will happen and I'm hoping that we will be better prepared but we simply haven't both in the financial crisis and in this one it has caught us unawares and we haven't been able to prepare. The consequences are even prepare better for the next one. Very few countries I think have been able to do that and so that's one that I see just this complete absence of predictions that could then I think be accompanied with a level of support mechanisms and you know thinking people ahead also those things we're not we're not able to sort of rely on those things because the prediction was absent. I think the second one for me is I think we live in increasingly in a society where it's been far too motivated by profit. We measure everything by GDP per capita and I think that that model of development hasn't really served us because some of the fundamental things that matter do not have a monetary value. We are now talking about the sustainable development goals and these 17 goals are you know strategically important but many of these goals are very much anchored in systems people and how you make those things come together. They're not necessarily goals that are dependent on monies and how monies are allowed support of course that's an important part of the equation but I think that an excessive you know an excessive almost obsession on growth at all costs a capitalist model that really sees profit before people. I think that that has also sort of centers all of course you know the whole system is out to kilter because of the fact that profit seems to be what counts. I think even in countries whether it's Asian countries or African countries that have been traditionally pro people, pro living in sort of a communal space that sort of support that you get from working with people and fostering this kind of support systems and drain from them. I think even in those in those parts of the world there is this sense that the the market and the profit have been these two measurements that are now more or less disrupting this society is disrupting the social fabric of these societies in a way that these things are what matters and the solidarity and those things that we have come to count on and rely on are generally just sort of ebbing away so I think those for me are two potential not potential but two ways that I've seen that economies haven't really you know the economic side of things haven't haven't helped it has actually thrown us off kilter. So in the uprisings related to pandemic related to this unmasking related to the death of George Floyd and the hideousness of that eight minutes and 46 seconds and it's become symbolic for another what you might call dimension of inhumanity related to law enforcement. You can you can almost feel what I will call the spring coiling inside of humanity the in other words the reaction the call to action that's forming and I just say that as a prelude so that you can share with our audience what in the how do I say in the context of all this dreadfulness gives you the most hope for the future of humankind and society on earth. What gives me the most hope I think we as as people and people of different generations and from different regions of the world do have shared values after all you know I think even when systems in place in systems in place fail us even when governments fail us even when economies you know are not aligned to our needs you know our value systems our support systems you know are are still intact and we can still draw on that it's an it's an it's a reservoir that never dries up I think that gives me hope and that has been manifested by what's what has happened and you know with with the murder of Joi Floyd and the way that has been you know the the the sense of indignation that we've seen in the rest of the world that's the the sense of sorrow you know deep sorrow and I I don't even you know I mean no whether the the family of Joi Floyd realize you know just how powerful in death you know the the message that has that has come from all across the world has been you know a message for you know people to stand together when these injustices you know occur and when they occur in the way that that that we we saw it happen and so I think that gives me hope it gives me hope that it doesn't matter what color you are it doesn't matter where you come from but people do recognize injustice and people do have that sort of shared that we have shared aspirations you know we have shared values um and that that I think is uh these are price assets and and these are things that that that we run on basically so so that I think gives me hope um and and and we we talk a lot about the ugly side of globalization but what has happened in the US has actually drawn on that global phenomenon because everywhere Joi Floyd's name has been mentioned you know my children have talked about it and and talked about the video that they've seen and how they can't even bring themselves to watch it and and and they're no exception so it's been talked about everywhere and by all generations so that I think is what gives me hope and it what it is what gives me hope in the area of what that I am I mean in natural resources and climate change we've seen how the whole debate has also been taken up by youth movements and how much they have also you know decided to speak through to power so I think I think the next generation I think for me and and that's another my my second source of hope it's in the generation to come I feel that yes we can we can try and educate our children but I feel that they're going to be a lot more resilient than we were and and they will be ready to put through to power in more ways than we have been Fatima I uh I have how would I say been inspired when I first met you and I have been inspired by this conversation today I've referred several times and I'm really underscoring this for our young listeners about the breadth of your curiosity training and education and how you see I'll just take a brief tour right now of some phrases narrative sense people first preparedness unaware motivated by profit profit before people the system is out of kilter it comes to the quest for aspiration kindred spirits as I listened to you I was compelled to reach out to one of my favorite books it was a book by a famous woman poet written in 1949 named mariel ru keiser it was called the life of poetry and the book talked about an experience that she had had where people could not ingest into their mind and spirit poetry because they were so afraid that poetry in its what you might call a ethereal form is unsettling but she issued a challenge in that book that I felt like your spirit today issued to this audience that I wanted to quote she said the relations of poetry are for our period very close to the relations of science is not a matter of using the results of science but of seeing that there is a meeting place between all kinds of imagination poetry can provide that meeting place I've attempted to suggest a dynamics of poetry showing that a poem is not its words or its images any more than a symphony as its notes or a river its drops of water poetry depends on moving relations within itself it's an art that lives in time expressing and evoking moving relation between the individual consciousness and the world the work that a poem does is a transfer of human energy and I think human energy may be defined as consciousness the capacity to make change in existing conditions it appears to me that to accept poetry in these meanings would make it possible for people to use it as an exercise and enjoyment of the possibility of dealing with the meanings in the world and in their lives your way of seeing and sharing reminded me of that passage that I read many years ago and I really I want to thank you for being our guests today I want to thank you for what you impart to the audience for the work you do in your entire professional life and for our global commission and I look forward to speaking with you in many contexts in the coming months but I I'm sure my audience will agree I was very we are all very invigorated by the way in which you guide us to see in this conversation today thank you very much thank you thank you very much I really enjoyed the conversation and I particularly enjoyed the course that you just you know shared with me because I'm I'm a great believer in poetry I do write quite a lot poems myself and so I really did enjoy that so thank you very good and like I said before too long we'll we'll meet again soon bye for now and check out more from the Institute for New Economic Thinking at InetEconomics.org