 Moving on, we are going towards our last panel of the day, which will talk about fostering brand and PR agency relationships, the challenges of overcoming creative differences and crisis mitigation, how brands and agencies should take a joint stand in case campaigns face a public outlash. Now, here we have a stellar panel. Once again, let me invite them on screen. We have Sunanda Rao, Founder and CEO of Setoff M Communication, Suvir Paul, Executive Vice President Rudra Fin, Rahul Nag, Head of Communications, Pocket FM, Saurav Das, Vice President, Corporate Communication, SEM Corp Energy Limited, and moderating this session is Shrabasti Malik from Exchange for Media. A very warm welcome to all our panelists and Shrabasti over to you. Yes, thank you, Cathy. Good afternoon, everyone. It is great to have you all in this session. Hi, good afternoon. Hello. Yeah, can you hear us? Yes, we are. Okay, right. Good afternoon, Shrabasti. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Shrabasti. Good afternoon, Mr. Rao. Good afternoon, Mr. Paul. So, welcome and thank you for joining me in this wonderful session that we have today that will talk about fostering brand and PR agency relationships. And like we know that some of the most successful and beautiful campaigns come out of a joint collaboration between a brand and an agency when they proactively collaborate with each other, ideate, and then dole out the campaign. So, in all of these myths, what do you think are the challenges that a brand and a PR agency face during communication? Novel discussing about the campaign of a certain product or a service. What are the challenges and the hurdles that both the PR agencies and the brands come across face and then overcome? If I can start with Mr. Rao? Hi. So, actually, I was just listening to the keynote speaker before and the most important thing for me lies in trust and it starts actually, you know, when you say it's an established relationship between a brand and a PR agency, this is one thing, but when and how do you come to that stage? There's a lot of process involved in actually choosing the right agency for the brand and also vice versa. So, starting also right from the pitching phase and getting to know each other and then, you know, evolving that relationship is the first and foremost step, which is obviously based on a lot of credibility, hard work, research on the basis of, you know, on the part of the agency, but also on the level at the level of the brand as well. Who am I choosing? Am I choosing the right partner? So, you actually are walking hand in hand for even a short term or a long haul campaign. So, just to kind of start off this discussion, I think I would rely on my colleagues from the brand part of it to give us some insights as well and then I'll pitch in more. Okay. Taking the cue from Ms. Rao, if you can move on to Mr. Das, if you'd like to weigh in. Yes, this is like the intercom story, right? Who came up first? Okay. So, the challenge which you are referring to, whether it's who's to be blamed and who's not to be blamed and who's to take the credit and who's not to take the credit is probably as eternal as that. And I can tell you because I sat on both sides of the table, right? So, I do understand the pang that comes on the other side and I understand the pang that comes on this side. So, quickly jumping in, you know, and I think this has moved a little bit. I mean, if that was the cheese somewhere, that cheese has moved and in the last 24 months, I think that's the movement that has happened. So, we know pandemic has made a significant shift to our life, the way we see things and that's not the breaking news. The good or the bad part is that, you know, we both realize whether it's the agency or the brand realize that we need to survive and thrive together. I think that realization has set in and I think that's the whole ecosystem. It's not just us. I think the planet sees that, you know, it's not me and the rest, it's us now, right? So, we are looking at and this is an opportunity for us, you know, and what has also happened during this last 24, 28, whatever the amounts were, that, you know, brands have become ubiquitous because the customer is like, you know, we have to look at the customer and customer is right now all over, medians, take the platforms, take everything. So, the challenges which we had has multiplied, you know, it's like increased many foods, right? So, if I look at what is the challenge, the challenge is about the Dharma of coalition, okay? I know this is very relevant to the Dharma of coalition. So, the agency and the brand cannot be sitting in two poles. I mean, you have to come. It's whether it's the in-house team or it's the external agency or the agency and the in-house brand guys, okay? Each brings its strengths and each comes with its weaknesses. I mean, the faster we are able to identify that, the faster we are able to, you know, kind of realize each other's strength and build on the weaknesses. I think that's going to help. So, three more things before I just wind up because otherwise Rahul and Suvid will just probably maul me down on this is like, you know, three things which matters, okay, for a brand and an agency relationship and three things which usually breaks agency and brand relationships are the campaign, the narrative and finally the relationship which I think Sunanda just mentioned about I'll touch it upon at the end of it, right? So, when it comes to the campaign, we do fantastic campaigns. I mean, India is a storehouse of creativity, whether it's PR creativity, whether it's advertising creativity, we are, right, we are and we are pushing the frontiers we're building up. But I think one thing we have to keep in mind and that's for the young people, the 30 and the 30s, the leaders of tomorrow credibility, be credible when you create campaigns, ensure they're memorable. And one more thing, keep it simple, just keep it simple, too much convoluted smart campaigns don't work too much smart campaigns, they just confuse people. The next thing is that we have to and that goes from both the sides, you know, that's where you can break the challenges, either if you're not doing that together, if we're doing it together, we'll ensure that we kind of look at it, if we don't, then we create a problem. That's the narrative part of it, you know, we need, when it comes to narrative, we need to be ready for the unexpected. And when I say unexpected, it is like, you know, okay, there's a brief, there's a draft, but how nimble are we to adapt the faster we can do that, the better. And that can happen only when we, when you have a strong core idea, strong core proposition in place. So I'll stick to what core, okay, that makes a lot of difference. And finally, the relationship, okay, Sunanda touched upon it. And I know because I was sitting on the other side many moons ago, and I had faced this from the client side, you know, when you pitch, you make a fantastic pitch, you have a proposition which can really blow the client up. But then what happens, agency is also a thin set of line of people. After pitching, the core team moves on to another pitch. And the client is left with another set of team, which literally can be a heartache, a pain for the client, you know, that's the other part we need to look into. Have that balance. I mean, the expectation management is important for the client. If you can do that, you can live with the client for a lifetime, you know. And finally, there is the new entry. It's not new, because that dilemma existed, but now it's strong. Is that, you know, agencies tend to have competitor mandates also. While there are Chinese worlds, there are, you know, well guarded processes in place. But we know we are human beings. So that's how once it creeps in, it doesn't make the client comfortable. I don't know how it's going to be addressed. I'm sure people will be talking about it. I'll pause here. Back to you, Shavasthi. Thank you, Mr. Das. Taking from one point that you mentioned that expectation management needs to be wholesome. I would like to ask Mr. Paul on bringing on harping on what Mr. Rao said that choosing a right agency is very important for a brand. But that also goes, that's also the case for a PR agency that choosing the right brand and the right campaigns to pitch. So Mr. Paul, if I could have your opinion on the same, on choosing the right brand and, you know, balancing the expectation management part of it. Shavasthi, thank you so much for having me and congratulations to all the winners today. You know, harping on what my fellow panelists have just spoken about. When we go in and make, and I'm totally from the agency side, I've never worked on the client side and I don't intend to, I enjoy the agency atmosphere. So when we go in and make a pitch to a particular client, it is obviously built on certain premise, a premise of a need or a want that is outlined by a client. It is very important for us who are on the client side, on the agency side at least, to understand what is the need for the brand and what are the wants that are being articulated. When you go building a campaign or you're going in for a pitch, it is about, you know, giving them a sense of how, what's the thought process? How are you going to approach that problem solving that has been articulated by the client? If you get that right, that's the first step of winning anything in the market space today, obviously. And I keep telling this to all the people that I work with, the trust is earned, it's not given. Somebody obviously puts a punt out to say, yes, these guys get it, they can deliver on what they're saying. And then it's about actually delivering to that commitment that you have made, right? Now, ideas that come, and I always lay stress on this, and in today's world, it's all changed. You know, when I started, when I started in communication over 20 years back, it was a lot different. But today's world allows us to play with data science umpteen. You can cut, slice, you know, look at, look at various, various problem statements, look at various aspects through various lenses. If you can back good ideas with data, there is very little that can be led from an argumentative side, or from a side to say that they could be a different opinion, because if data points you in a particular direction, it requires you to kind of understand, contemplate, and then say, yes, whether this is a good idea or not. And that's what's most important. One is us as agency people understanding what is a good idea, how do we substantiate it, how do we sell it. And the other side who's sitting and receiving that also needs to understand and get whether this is the right way for the brand. And most times of not, people who spent enough time in that industry on the client side and having worked maybe long years in that particular field, they get it. So our ability to marry the crew and then understand that, you know, there is an idea that is backed by data that commits that, that makes a promise and that there is a execution plan or a commitment to deliver on that promise. I think if we get those aspects right, we shouldn't see any dissonance in, in, in a relationship between a client and an agency. It is a partnership at the end of the day. You choose to work with each other. And that's the commitment that you need to deliver on. Thank you, Mr. Paul. Mr. Nag, if I could have your opinion on, on the subject. Okay. So, first of all, thank you for having me here. And again, like, congratulations to all the future heroes of the PR industries and the future leaders. Okay, coming back to the point and coming back to the panel, I think there are three aspects that we need to be a little, a little careful of or caution of. One is what sort of has already mentioned expectation management. And if you look at it, expectations management doesn't happen from day one. It comes from a continuous flow of trust and credibility that one build over a period of time. And unless and until the trust and credibility comes into the picture, there is always going to be an expectation mismatch. Point number two is I have always, always seen that there is some thin line of thick line between agency and brands when it comes to the strategic focus in terms of dragging any campaigns and vis-à-vis the tactical part which comes as a, as a, as a, as a byproduct of that campaign. Now, if you look at, if you look at a very, like at any campaign, at that point of time, you will see that the brand or any of, any of the corporate side of the, of the conversation is coming more from a strategic approach and having a very strategic outlook to it. But unless and until the other side, which is, which I generally call advisors or consultants, unless and until they get the strategic aspect of the campaign, it's very difficult to marry both the agency's aspect and the, or the advisor's aspect and on the opposite side, the brand's aspect. So it is really important to have that marriage when it comes to having the strategic, strategic alliance or strategic amelioration or alignment in terms of driving the, driving any campaign or narrative. Second is how the tactical part is going to be aligned in, in order, in, in, in order to the strategic outcome that you want to drive. The third point is, and this is again, again a part of the second point, which is that whether the agency is actually considered themselves as an agency or as an advisor. Because the moment they are behaving like an agency, because to be frank with you, I have a bit of a kind of comprehension about using the term agency for any, any form of PR partner. And I generally address my PR partner, my PR advisor, always as partner. So I don't call them agency. So the, the first and foremost thing is agency is comes more from a tactical perspective to get the job done. And get, so basically that's how that term was coined in the advertising and marketing domain. Come get a, get the job, the job done, get a percentage of the entire value and move, move ahead. But when it comes to public relations and the communications practice, I think agency is no longer going to be relevant. One has to come as an advisor, one has to come as a consultant and be a partner to the journey rather than just focusing on getting the job done. Over to you, Salasthi. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Naaz. That was really insightful. And coming back to the point that you said that the relationship between a brand and an agency develops over time and on the basis of trust and credibility. So while during the strengthening of the relationship and during, you know, making and the promotion of campaign, there should, there sometimes are creative differences because the clients come with a set of ideas that they want to, you know, put out to the audience and the brands have a few ideas of their own that they want to amalgamate with the ideas of the brand. So do you think that these kind of creative differences strengthen the bond or, you know, strains it? I would like to start with Mr. Rao. Yeah, okay, great. So in that perspective, you know, what the other micro panelists have said, it actually all boils down to how well do you want to work with each other? Right? Yes, there may be creative differences, but I wouldn't really call them differences. These are when you're brainstorming together on ideas, when you're actually coming up with creative ideas. One thing is obviously when we start giving in some pitches, when it comes to creative ideation of campaigns, be it a long-term or a short-term campaign, I think, of course, as a third party, when you're, I'm representing an agency, so as a third party, you are not from that system which has the mission, which knows its brand, which knows its own personality, what it wants to portray. We as outsiders, of course, need to be a little more briefed and it evolves over a certain period of time. But on the other hand, what the third party perspective brings is fresh ideation, fresh creativity, as in out-of-the-box thinking, which I myself as a brand probably have not even stepped into that realm because I am coming from inside out perspective. So these two things, when they're married, all that can work out if you have a basic understanding that you want to work with each other and chalk out that brilliant plan that both sides are working with each other for. So at the end of the day, the goal is set that you have a campaign, the mission is set because you want to work together. I don't think really that at that point of time that they are two different parties that are working. I think they do come together. We do so much of ideation. The latest one, we have actually helped in a project that has been, it's a multi-cultural, multi-national project just recently that we got over with for a client of ours. And in that whole thing, it's not just about feasibility or either we are sitting across the table and just flinging ideas across the table. It doesn't really work like that. We get the briefing. We do talk about feasibility as well. Is it feasible? There are so many things that probably a brand has limitations. They have shortcomings. They have challenges that like, for example, I as an agency can use shutter stock images, but then my client will say, no, I cannot. But then that's where I'll have to see how feasible it is, what are the assets that we have? I'm just giving a very, very tiny minute example of how actually a day-to-day functioning comes when you talk about creative brainstorming, for instance. So those kinds of issues can be solved as long as there is that mutual understanding. And that's where it boils down to. If we are friends, if we want to have that basic fundament of working together, if we have the credibility, if we have that mutual trust, if we have the honesty, if we are hardworking, I think nothing can, I don't see that as a problem. Sorry, I got a little long on that. Thank you, Mr. Rao, for your input. Mr. Das, if I can move on to you and ask you about, Mr. Rao just spoke about feasibility, about if the agency is able to meet the requirements of what the brand requires in terms of promoting their services or their products. And if I could have your view on this? See, I think Shunanda's view, I'll definitely touch upon that before I go into it. I also kind of really resonated with two points, one from Shubir and one from Rahul. Shubir's point, which he referred to, that need and want. Okay. And need, understanding the need of a client and then probably I'll just slightly give it my twist, align my want with it, ensures that we win the trust. I have, and I'm coming from several successful self-experiences when I was sitting on the other side trying to do that, right? It works. And many a time, young, talented comms, professionals sitting on both sides misses the faster and the better we understand that. Probably that's the starting point, because we need to realize one thing, big ideas are not IPs. They come from anywhere and from across the horizon. A big idea can come in from anywhere. So having a creative difference, I see it as a strength. It's like it's the core of bringing it, but as long as it's healthy and the differences doesn't get translated into personal and animal cities. So if those two can be met, kind of addressed, it's like a marriage. Okay. As the reference was that Rahul said that we are partners and I think there was a couple of times, even Vinit was mentioning in his previous address, that it's good marriages last a lifetime. Bad ones ends in too many divorces and we know that from our human, our general social analogy itself, right? And that whole thing starts with the trust. I understand, I make space. I try and give myself that space to understand what my client needs. And the client sitting in and tries and understand what the agency wants to do. There's that whole bit of insecurity once it fades away, that fog goes out. There's a great space for having creative differences, which can help. I think I'll stop in here. Listen to the others. Thank you, Mr. Das. Mr. Paul, if I could have an agency a point of view on the subject. Yeah, sure. So what I'd like to say over here is the first tenet of teamwork, right? First tenet of teamwork or partnership or whatever you want to call it, is all successes and failures are collective. It's not a situation where you fail and then it becomes an agency and a client problem. The successes are celebrated equally, right? I mean, we're joined in that. As long as we understand that about each other, I think there is great joy to be had in the working relationship. The other thing I just want to pick on is, you know, when coming into a room to kind of give out an idea or to kind of work with creative differences, it's not unhealthy. It's actually very healthy. I would propagate the fact that people are coming in with different opinions. They're coming in with with well researched ideation in terms of what they're trying to serve. Again, it's upon the leadership of that particular organization or the particular people over there to understand what will work and what won't. And the ability to say, yes, this is a great idea and then take it and build on it. It may not be the entire idea. You can take it and you can build on it. And it again, it's a collective effort from both sides. So I don't look upon creative differences actually being a negative in this particular discussion or have a negative connotation whatsoever. I think creative differences are extremely healthy. Personally, I do believe multifaceted disciplinary resources lend to that discussion. So it's great if you have five guys who've done public relations all their lives, but I'd love to involve people from advertising. I love to involve people from research. I love to involve people from different domains and each one comes with a different idea. And they approach the problem differently. So I mean, on a whole, I completely welcome creative differences in a room. Obviously, keep it healthy. And I think we're all well experienced enough to know what that means. But creative differences are what takes you to the next level. If everybody thinks like you're just doing more of the same, where's the innovation? And that's where I kind of put it out, when ever working with young teams, people who are eager to succeed, be the guiding force. Mentor them well. They'll come up with some fabulous ideas which are executable, which have been executed, and the results are there on the wall to see for anybody who's interested. So that's my take on this. I always welcome alternative thinking, bringing in new concepts, new thoughts. This is it. This is the new world we live in. Thank you, Mr. Paul. Mr. Nag, harping on what Mr. Paul just said about creative differences being healthy, as long as they come in from the right quarters and from various quarters, from advertising or from marketing, and about streamlining ideas that are different, yet adhere to the same output. So if I could have a brand point of view on this. Sorry, you're on mute. Sorry, sorry. So I would probably agree with all the three other panelists over here. And I do agree that creative differences is probably the foundation of any successful creative content. And unless and until you have that creative differences, you are probably sitting in a room with a lot of yes, boss kind of people, which probably is not a healthy sign for anything. Second is whether this is coming from the right quarters. I don't think there is any right or wrong quarters, when you are doing the brainstorm and doing a discussion on certain creative ideation. I can give you for an example. I was actually doing a kind of rehearsal session for another panel a couple of weeks back, and someone from some other consulting firm actually gave me an idea, which I really liked it. And I actually started rolling that idea in my organization. The point is, are you receptive enough to hear out the ideation that is coming to your way? Be it from anyone, be it from people whom you may not like as well. But if there are ideas which are coming and which is actually adding to your spin, you should always welcome that. And that is probably, as I said, the foundation of any successful content. So just concluding it by saying that unless and until you have creative differences, you'd have no creativity in the organization. Well, that was very rightly put and very beautifully put, Mr. Nag. Thank you. Moving on to the next question of the session is about standing up both brands and agencies taking a stand on their campaigns in the case of a backlash. More often than not, some of the most beautiful campaigns have faced a lot of backlash owing to either some have addressed that it's specific to a minority or it's hurting the religion or some other issues that have cropped up. So how do you think or do you think that brands and agencies should jointly take a stand on any campaign or any successful campaign? For the matter of fact, in the case of a backlash or in the case that, you know, it backfires. Mr. Rao, if I can start with you. Okay. The big answer is, if I'm in it, I'm in it. And it's, I mean, I have a very to lose each other and say, no, no, push the blame. I think that's a very childish thing to even expect. I feel when we are doing the entire preparation for a campaign, we have to keep in mind that there is nothing even if you bring out a needle, it will attract any sort of today, if the social media, the world of social media is so dynamic, we do have a lot of opinions around and there is no campaign that's not going to attract any negativity. That's okay. That's one has to take in the stride, notwithstanding that. I think there is absolutely from my perspective, I wouldn't even entertain such a question in my mind, whether if in such an eventuality, something like this comes, I'm going to wash my hands off or the brand would wash hands off. I don't think that's even a question when we are even signing our contracts. If there is other, I'd love to hear the other opinions, but I think we are all on the same page about that. Thank you, Mr. Rao. Mr. Nag, if I could have your views on this, should brands and agency jointly take a stand on a campaign in case of a negative backlash? Rahul or me? Mr. Nag. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. Okay, so one thing which I will probably agree with Sunanda over here and one thing that I always follow is that together in prime, partner in crime. So if you are having the celebration together with your advisor or PR partner over here, and if there is any kind of backlash or any form of crisis that happens due to a campaign, you cannot leave them alone. So it has to be like a kind of hand in hand. It has to go hand in hand. And it's a kind of handshake that we both have agreed before we even started working together. So there is no question about it that there is a single point of ownership that would lie with the brand or with the PR partner. If it's mostly it has to be together, deliver the success or if it is actually a crisis or backlash, just face it and solve it. But once there is a backlash, then you have that task to do to utilize the backlash and utilize the crisis rather than paying each other. So I don't think there is any scope to take any form of ownership or take any sort of like do any kind of blame game at that point of time. And that's the need of a healthy sign of a relationship between the two parties. Okay, I think we're coming at the five end of the session. So I'd like to quickly move on to the last question is that a brand and agency relationship is more like a personal one, like between friends or between families. So how do you think that this relationship can be strengthened or how can we make both sides, you know, communicate effectively for a more successful campaign or a successful relationship in the long run? I'd like to start with Mr. Rao again. Sorry. Actually, we have encompassed or we have comprehensively covered the various aspects during this short time that we could. The only thing from my end that remains to be again talked about or even I'd like to answer Mr. Das's comment, it should become a ping-pong ball. But yes, you know, we are when brands are hiring campaigns for the agencies for the campaigns. So yes, there's a different team as you know, it's it's we do understand that point. And this point has been raised quite a number of times also on Twitter. In fact, even today, there was there was this discussion about how when I'm looking for pure pitching in there when they're giving out tenders or, you know, give the right feedback. So it's actually a two-way street. But I think the more important thing here is that when you know that they have to work together, I think the critique of the larger PR industry in general, I think one way out is to have those kind of niche work with niche agencies that are specializing in their field. Gone are the days when I'm one of the days when you would hire, let's say a co-cola would hire the biggest PR agency in the world. And you have that one tagline that it tastes different, for example. Now we have so many nuances to take care of. Every market has its different regional specific specificities, even India as a market is very, very complex. Every 100 kilometers, we have a change of attitude. So the campaigns also have to look into that aspect. So, you know, probably when you're searching for an agency, when you're searching for the right partners, probably it'll be a good thing to kind of understand how well and how well you are talking to that deep partner and to have that obviously that frank conversation that look, you know, I'd like to meet the team in the first go when you guys are pitching for it. So one way out is to be extremely transparent about things. So I know it's very tough. On the other hand, I think also to be more precise in the ask, I have had so many campaigns or let's say meetings or first elevator pitches where clients do not even know the difference between a public relations agency or a marketing agency or a creative agency. And then we have to start from right from the scratch and explaining and what is paid media, what is earned media, what is, you know, opinion generation. So I think, yes, the PR space largely is a very abstract space. It's not like you're seeing an ad. It's not like, you know, it's a tangible asset that you can grab on. It's about changing or it's actually about perception management and reputation management. So I think barring that I'm throwing all these big vocabulary words because from the industry, I think all of us, our audiences, we know what we're talking about. When it comes to largely having a versatile, I as an agency person will always look for versatility for diversity for, you know, having that creative mind, a boiling pot of minds in terms of, you know, having the different kinds of, I mean, it's not just about, you know, bringing together minds from the advertising space or the monitoring space. I want to see that I'm not just from the PR background also, be looking for bankers, engineers, fashion designers, musicians, documentary filmmakers. So I think barring that the last point to come back to the question is how can we enhance as well as, you know, inward-outward dialogue and more the dialogue, the better. Thank you for your views, Mr. Rao. I'd like to move on to Mr. Das, if I could have your views on this, on the same on how brands and agencies can, you know, can communicate more effectively and the opportunities that lie ahead for both the parties. You know, I'll just take you back to a quote, which kind of, it's more of those, you know, your own baseline statement, which you live by. And this is from David Ogilby in 1955, and he said that, you know, the customer and the consumer is not a moron. He's your wife. I'll just kindly slightly adapt that, saying that he or she is your client. Okay. Remember that. So what happens is, many a times, we, in our zeal, to kind of, you know, to kind of move on, build on and stuff like that, we tend to miss out that little space. I'll stop there. But then I'll also remind, because this group, which we are talking today, the forum is all about young leaders who are going to be taking our seats very soon. And they're going to be the, you know, next flag bearers of the sector. So, you know, remember, you are craftsmen of one of the most ancient art form. And when I say one of the most ancient art form is that influencing did not start with, you know, the industrial era. It was their way that when the Neanderthal man was running, trying to bring down a mammoth, you know, they managed to influence their other fellow Neanderthals to go back and, you know, chase one mammoth, because there was something at the end of it. So they started influencing. And even after that, Homo sapiens, when they realized that Neanderthals, whether you're apics predators, they managed to get themselves together, spin out something, speak to each other, communicate, get together and overcome the Neanderthal. And since then, we have been kind of, you know, influencing, you know, bringing down civilization, building civilization. We have been doing that, right? So, so this is this is one of the most ancient art form we're dealing with. Okay, so let's, let's start there. And, you know, and it all starts with two things, trust. We spoke about it many times today in the course of it. And the next thing is creativity. These are two fundamental blocks of our relationship. You know, if you want to really build it, start there with trust. You have to be, you have to be first of all, transparent to your customer, or your client, or your partner. Let's, let's put it partner to partner. Let's forget client and agencies out there for once. You know, you have to be kind of completely, completely mutually start respecting each other, trust each other. You know, just, just let yourself, there are times when you will fall, but let the other person know that you're falling. You don't have to hide that. You start there, you give a little space, the other one will also, right? Start there. And the next thing is, you know, the best friend of brands is creativity. The more creative the practitioner is, the brand becomes stronger. So any brand custodian loves to, whether it's sitting on both sides, love to have something creative around that, you know, and the worst, and the worst enemy of a brand is replication. Often young professionals pick up a formula, successful formula from one brand, one client and just plugs it, just uses Google tool to replace the names and puts a page together. Don't do that. Again, I'll go back to that, you know, the customer or the client on the other side is not moral. So these two few things, so I'm talking of transparency, I'm talking of trust, talking of, you know, the encouragement of having creative space. If we have these fundamentals in place, these three pillars, I'm sure any of this, whether you talk about brand agency relationship, whether you call about agency, I mean, this communication team are coming both together and it's stakeholder relationship, they can all flourish and they can all be, you know, growing mutually and growing better. I'm done speaking, back to you, you're on mute. Thank you, Mr. Das, that was really quite insightful that what you mentioned about, you know, trust and transparency being the bedrock of relationship between a brand and an agency. Mr. Paul, if I could weigh in on your opinion from an agency point of view. Yeah, so first and foremost, I have a little bit of a different opinion on this, as far as, you know, relationships go, it's very different with my family and it's very different with my client. My family is unconditional, my client is conditional. So you must be able to separate these two. Second is any new relationship is like two rough stones taken and grinding together. So they are going to be, you know, instances where things either, you know, mindsets don't match or expectation mismanagement, etc. They don't match. But over the period of time, if you can keep rubbing those stones together, they become smooth, right? They rub the friction out. So what that essentially leads to is about intent. If the intent is right from the agency side, each and every time that they put their foot forward, if the intent is right, you are going to get this relationship right. The one thing that I can't teach people is skill, but one thing I can't teach people is will, the intent. I can teach people skill, but I can't teach people will. That has to come from within. So no matter where you are in the hierarchy of an agency, whether you're right on top or whether you're right at the bottom, remember the will needs to be paramount. The skill will come. You will find good mentors within the so-called bandwidth of the agency. I'm sure there will be people who will come up, put their hands up and help you. But there's nobody who can help you with will. Will is something that you need to generate for yourself and you need to put yourself with the best intent day in, day out, working for the best for a client in terms of serving their needs. Thank you, Mr. Paul. Mr. Nag, if I could have your closing comments on this subject. So probably I won't be having those 20,000 kind of fit ever kind of process over here, perfectly over here, but I will keep it very grounded, something that I follow. I always try to ensure that there is no form of fear or scare or any form of which can cause a communication gap with my partner. So anyone right from the bottom of the line to the top of the line can call me at any point of time. So that is the kind of confidence and comfort that I always try to give to the other side. Because once that comes, then follows the trust and credibility, the trust of the fact that they are trusting me about a point that means they're not working. We need to look at a alternate route or things are falling down. There is a proper that has happened unless and until you have that fear out of the complete conversation, that will never happen. So that's that's one trust. And second is respect. So irrespective of whether they are of pressure to the organization or a person in the team, at the end of the day, unless and until you do respect your team, you will not get that respect back as an outcome of it. Now, unless and until that mutual respect falls into the picture, I don't think there will be enough trust and transparency into the conversation. So it's all interconnected and interlinked, but I think these are the three characteristics, behavior, we need to be a little focused on transparency, trust and respect. Thank you, Mr. Naag, for the insightful insight. I think they've come to the end of the session. It was really interesting and it was a lot of informative session that we had today. Thank you to all my panelists, Mr. Paul, Mr. Vas, Mr. Naag and Mr. Rao. And I think the budding professionals of tomorrow are going to gain a lot of inspiration inside and innovative ideas from this session. I know personally, I have. So thank you so much and have a nice day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much and all the best to the winners and greetings from our side. Thank you so much and congratulations. Thank you so much. Congratulations to the entire team, all the winners, and to exchange from media team also for organizing this. Thank you everybody. It was a pleasure.