 I'm less worried about the students and flexible ones because they have natural limitations. They will not go far, but the flexible ones, they don't have these limitations, depending on their body structure, like they have just those ligaments and ligament, they have very important functions. They are there to protect your joints, basically, I would say strength before flexibility and you have just flexibility if you don't have any strength, then it is dangerous. Hey, Travis, Journeyman and Women. So I'm really excited to bring you this podcast. Usually it takes me a few weeks to kind of prepare one for you, but I'm so excited about this one that actually, you know, just did it, had this talk today and I right away went to upload it and edit it, so I'm super excited about it. And the reason because is, to begin with, I made a video called, this is why yoga sucks, which, you know, I spoke about the dark side of yoga and the downside, which not often is spoken about. And that's not to say that yoga is a bad practice period. Yoga can be a wonderful practice, but it's also a dangerous practice. And too many people I find are just talking out the good things and neglect the dark things. And basically, I was focusing on the physicality part of it and that, including my own journey, I was a professional yoga instructor for around seven years. But I did not know so much about how the body works. And I was kind of, you could say, putting my students into danger of, you know, hurting them. But I wasn't even aware of that for a long time because none of my yoga instructors really addressed that. And I found that to be the same case in so many places. And so this is why when I learned that a friend of mine knows a medical doctor who is now a professional yoga instructor and she also speaks up about those things, about the dangers that not everyone recognizes that yoga holds together with the benefits, I right away went to connect up with her and the first chance we got, we made this talk. So again, I highly recommend listening to it. Just a quick note to you all is that there are themes. If you skip through the timeline of YouTube, they're named in themes. So like you have the subject, you'll see what's where. So feel free to skip around and listen to what's interesting to you. Although I think the whole talk is interesting. And if you prefer to listen to an audio version while you drive or whatever, then you'll find that also in the links below so you can just go and listen to it or watch it on YouTube, which is better for me because I get better YouTube ratings then. So enjoy. Have a good one. And I hope you will benefit from the talk as much as I did. Have a good one. I've been looking forward for this conversation very much ever since I heard more about your work. But one thing I like to usually start the conversation with, it's kind of almost like a bit of a tricky question, but it helps to start the conversation. I like to ask for a non-humble version of your haste achievements so that people can get a sense of what you went through and what's your expertise, what's your knowledge. So kind of a short version, just like, I did this, I did this, I did that. Okay, not in a humble way. Yeah, well, so shortly just to sum it up. So I've been practicing yoga now. I've come to just before this interview, so for 17 years, I started pretty early and I practice also intensely and there are, you know, roots and all. And mainly I enter yoga, so that was the one I started with. And then, so that's first, then I did medical studies and I had medical diploma and it was like six years then I did internship and like it. I started this digitalization in Amsterdam in September and it took me almost another three years. So in total I sat in medical field so far, 10 years. And then I decided to, as I had more time to be, to fulfill my dream and to go to India. So I went there and I managed to find a very good, serious school and then spend there two months. So the teacher training and then also assisting and over there. And then since I came back, basically, then I just tried to kind of bring the two together. And having one foot here, one there, trying to combine to and to help people, basically, to understand us and better and then to improve their lives and take the responsibility to their lives and basically that's what I'm aiming at at the moment. I just give people the tools to. We hopefully have a bit healthier and a bit happier. That's a shot of people. Great. Thank you. That was a great one. Obviously, it fascinates me that you have a medical doctor's degree and the knowledge and the practice and now you're a full-time yoga instructor from as we spoke, right? OK. Yes. So the moment I'm seeing you go full-time, although I'm still thinking that there's so much more I can learn from mental field. So I'm considering still doing this sensation maybe in something closer to yoga, which I can combine with yoga like physical medicine and medical rehabilitation. And I think it would be a nice match to bring it together, basically, or to take the best from from this. Great. I really like that already. And I think it's a sign of a person who's on a path to kind of receive knowledge, but also on a path where knowledge has been accumulated. And what I mean by that is that it's kind of that like that joke where the less I know, the more I think I know. And, you know, I think, unfortunately, that happens in yoga as well, where there are instructors who barely know anything. And if we look at it objectively, but they don't know what they don't know and they think they know enough and they're not even investigating further, they just go through some course and maybe learn and you ask them if they want to learn or something, but they feel like they know enough and they don't dive deeper, but you have all that education and the degree and the experience and you're in a situation where you feel like you still want to learn more. So if I find it fascinating and brilliant, that's the way to go. And like, yeah, it's true, but on the other hand, it's also tricky because also like sometimes more, you know, and especially about the dangers, it can paralyze you to some extent because you look at the people and like, you know potentially how many conditions they may have and you know that they might not have any symptoms yet. And sometimes, you know, if you know too much, you may have to go through the same thing as well. Absolutely, I know 100% what you mean and I actually went through that myself personally. So I instructed yoga professionally about seven years, but in total, maybe like eight years or so. Anyway, the same, same thing. But when I started doing it on my own in my own school, I actually, somewhere in the back of my mind, I felt and recognized, not like 100%, but I felt that I lack the real necessary knowledge. My part of me kind of realized it. And as you said, it was paralyzing, especially the first couple of years, I felt like, and the difficulty was the challenge that I was given this certificate to teach, I was encouraged to teach, which I don't today now, I think that was not a correct thing to do. But then I had the degree, officially I was supposed to teach, but every time I would teach, there was a little voice in the back of my mind which would say, do I really know what I need to know? And in my case, it was way worse, even because you are a doctor, you know already so much, I didn't have that luxury. So yeah, I know 100% what you mean. And I think it's great you're mentioning that, but it's interesting too that you still, while having all that knowledge, you still feel a little bit of that challenge, it seems like, is that true? Yeah, it is very true. Because this is just such a huge knowledge and that there, even if you spend like six years, during the six years of studies, this knowledge is so huge that you know a bit about everything and deeply in depth, not feeling. So that's why like this is six years of the studies and then usually five, six years of the certification too. Because like it's completely different in the world. So, and this is, I think it's endless because then you are a specialist, but still, like things are changing. And then, especially in combining with yoga, like yoga, do what they love about it, so much about your experience and about you really have to experience it on your mat, like medicine is more intellectual, but yeah, but then, so then you can, you have these two things. So one thing you know in theory, how much you know. And the second thing is like the more you store on the mat, the more you see like, the more patients you have. And it's like, and also the more students you have, then they, often they just, you get surprises with that as well, because you think this way, you experience it this way, you think theoretically it makes sense, but for this very person, might not. So, and then you realize this again and again, like the more and more, and then you can just not ever say, I know, because for sure. And yeah, so, and if you ever find a teacher who says, I know everything, and that's how it is, and just do it this my way, then you usually need to change the score in the future, because it's boring. I really like your approach and perspective. And you also remind me of a friend of mine who just recently told me it was a different subject, but I think it's universal. He said, if somebody claims to be an expert, probably they're not very good. Yeah, it's also another of many things, like also ego, and as you said, like no, very little, it seems super simple. Like, well, I know, no, because it's so little, it's so easy to grasp. And then if you start deeper, then you're like, oh my God, there's so much more. And then it's, I think it's really a life journey. And basically that's what life is about, just learning everything, not only medicine, not only yoga, but everything you do in your own house. I agree. There's one thing which is at the top of my mind, and so first off, I didn't mention we have a mutual friend, Linda. Yeah. And I think she, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she mentioned that you went to go for a certification, a yoga certification, instructor certification into India, but then if that's true, the other thing is, I think she mentioned that you were horrified by, it's a strong word, but I presume it may be true. You were horrified by some of the postures you would see and some of the things that were taught because you would recognize that it's not healthy from your knowledge as a doctor, or is that a true story, or did I misrepresent that? Not really. No, so I went to India to do the teacher training, and I was actually very happy with my school. So I did a long research, and as you may know before, because I made up my mind that I wanted to go to India and do it there, it was like my life dream to actually go to the place of origin of yoga and do my teacher training over there, and then as I started to make research to actually get school, I was horrified, then I was horrified because then it's like, it's such a huge business. So you have thousands of schools, and then for most of them, it was enough for me to see what they were offering, or how their website was looking like, but it's not for me. And then so it took me quite a long time, and then I was lucky to find a shout-out there, so that's where I went. And I actually met him before he came to Poland, he was giving a workshop, and he's very experienced teacher, so he gets like 40 years of experience, and he was also for seven years, he was almost seven years, he was assistant of because I'm there, in all classes, and also he practices because of the meditation of me, I'm very serious, because of the meditators for me was really important, because I'm not looking for any other kind of meditations, and most of others because they were offering meditation, which I was not interested in. So then I was like, and then he was also organizing like, who even started your training, going to take part in a 20 days intensive course, which was, I could see that he was inspired by, he was inspired by 20 days in silence, I mean, hour silence, he could talk, and then he would start four a.m. in the morning, he was in the ashram, in the middle of the jungle, it was a very beautiful place, and very great group of people, like Queen Celina, seriously, what would he were doing, and I really liked his approach, because he actually, he's like, looking for a good word, not simplified, but to some extent, yes, I anger my thoughts, so he like took a few steps back, he removed most of the posture, and he uses like three times more props, mini equipment, like blankets, chairs, and other stuff. He removed a headstand, like a usual headstand, and he replaced it with hanging, which has the same benefits, like it's safe for the neck. And then he was really all about like, alignment, footwork, working the whole body, working as a whole rather than adjusting separately, no pushing at all in the poses, and I mean, okay, not all of them, but he had some poses with him, but in general, I really appreciated him, and obviously I did not, I'm the same, like I really appreciated him, and I really, I would be forever grateful for what I've learned, sorry for my English, I've learned from him, but it doesn't mean that I agree with everything you say, it doesn't mean that everything would make sense to me, and some didn't, but majority didn't, so now the experience with the training itself was good, this one it is, and I still use lots of things that I've learned with him, so now, but what I think I was actually kind of 35 was like in India, actually when I went there finally, like with every single, not single, every second house, in touristic areas especially, so I went to Damsha, it's like teacher training, teacher training, and all certified by whatever, and then you would start a question, like just looks like it would be business, and maybe some, I guess many of these schools are generally trying to do their best, I guess everyone is trying to do their best, but we need to ask them this question about the quality of the time. Well, it's really great when I hear you say that you put research, or it sounds like you put research into choosing your certification program, and on the other hand, I think there are so many, especially in India, I've spent only a month in India, but I think I've seen plenty of that, of what you speak of, those certification programs on every corner, and obviously they are there because there's enough student base, there's enough people who go there and pay, so basically that says that most people don't do the research, they just go walk and they're like, oh, look, there's a certification program, I'm just gonna do it. So what do you think about that? And maybe I'll just add this kind of a sharp part to it, but personally what I'm concerned about is people just getting into those random your certification programs, and they get taught for a month, and then they go back and they teach full time. So what do you think about that? What's your perspective? Yeah, it's a tricky question because I think, yeah, I think it's like if someone wants to, the teacher training, it's very important to make a proper research. What is tricky is that like many people which I can understand, they're hired at their job, let's say, and they think, wow, it's so nice to have everything like this office job, so let's do, and with the teacher training to become a yoga teacher, because then it has a purpose and you work with people and you're your own master, so. And then we are quite like generally as people these days, we're quite impatient, we're like in the insta, insta, everything is insta. So then they're like, okay, so you check the internet and you see, I can do it in a month, so one month. It's so good. So then it's a shortcut. And then yes, and then especially if you don't research your school well enough, but even if you do, if you decide to just go immediately for these very intensive practices, and immediately to do the teacher training and without previously having like well established practice and without also practicing first, without having this in mind that I'm going to be, okay, just practicing because you love it, just practicing because it's good for you. And then at some point you come to this conclusion that yes, it's great so well for you that you want to do it to others. I think maybe that's more like a natural right way to be, but on the other hand, I'm sure that all of these people, they just have the best intentions and they just genuinely want to do something for a full purpose and they also are really struggling with where they are at at the moment. And that's why they might decide to do the shortcut. Also many people, they just will just teacher training for their own development to teach after. So it depends on the case, but yes, in general, it is tricky and then I've heard about some schools, I haven't been there myself, so that's why it's, I'm just saying what I've heard, but it was true. I just, some people decided to, you know, to open a yoga school because it seems a good business without any background. And then it is the best care. That's also not ethically correct, like this is wrong. If someone just doesn't, because she hopes to get money out of it, then it happens. I believe I'm with you here, but out of curiosity, if you would comment, why would you say it's unethical? Could you say a few more words so that whoever's listening would really understand what you mean by that? So I think if your only motivation to either become a teacher or to teach the teachers, like so to create the program, if your only motivation is to make a profit of it and then maybe also make a profit of people's desperation or people's situation, like I said, like so some people, like they're just so discriminating their lives and they really want to make a change, they really want to go with the teacher training that's there, or just a normal thing. And if you take advantage of it, and if you don't want to genuinely help them, and then if you make this shortcut, knowing that it's wrong, and you're knowing that you need normal time, doing this shortcut because you take it as a marketing tool, then this is wrong. Then it means that then your motivation was okay. Then your motivation was not genuinely doing what would be best for them, but rather trying to find the customers and trying to guess what they need and providing them what they want, but what you know is not gonna help them, but that was it. I think when I think about that whole situation, I guess it's almost like two levels. There are people who know that they're abusing it and that makes it way worse, but also as you mentioned, there's most of, probably the majority of people, they have good intentions, but some people just don't know what they don't know, or I guess we all don't know what we don't know, but some people are not even, they don't even realize that there's something they don't know. And one of my missions that I feel like I'm on and I'm hoping to kind of deliver some of that knowledge through the help of people like yourself is trying to put some more light on that aspect of what people might not be aware of. And having said that, my question basically is that when you look at yoga or the kind of the general yoga, the majority of how yoga is taught, are there some parts which concern you where you look at some postures or some approach of teaching and you recognize that this is actually dangerous and you would hope that this would not continue? Well, there are, there are ease, there are a few things. So actually the, like the poses I consider quite dangerous and which are used very commonly because they're called king and queen is of asanas, asanas in yoga postures. So ease actually head stand and shoulders. And because especially like head stand is tricky because head stand is easy to do. Surprising me, especially if you use the wall, like to come into the head stand, you don't need much. And especially if the teacher comes and puts you in, that's, you know, you can put anyone in head stand. But this is a very dangerous pose because if you look at the anatomy of the spine, like basically the cervical spine, so the neck area, if you look at the shape, if you look at the size even of the vertebrae, like the neck is basically very mobile. So we can move it all around. But it's not very stable because it's supposed to carry our head maybe not much more. And then the lower you go, the bigger, there is more stability and probably less mobility. So your number, especially if you're going to go in the safe room, it's not as mobile. So, and what is happening? And I think that's what we all need to keep in mind if we learn yoga and we live in the West, especially, it is that it's important to keep it safe. So basically it comes from a different land where people, especially as it was developed, they leave different way. So for example, what happens in India, people actually, oh, other countries, people carry a lot on their head or on their head and especially in the old times. Like I spent a few months in Nepal and then what I, in a village. And then what I noticed in this village was like the children very soon after they were born, they would already start carrying on their head loads. So for them, like they have completely different legs, I'll just say. And the way it doesn't maybe necessarily mean that no one in the West can ever go headstand, but everyone should be super cautious with this pose, especially knowing that pain is a very late symptom. So the fact that you don't have pain in your neck or wherever, it doesn't mean that you have a headstand. And it still doesn't mean that you also, that you have a strong muscles to carry the heavy load on your head because as you do the headstand and especially if you're not experienced practitioner and I saw headstand being told on the first thought, then what you do, you basically, what every way, even if you weigh 60 kilos, it usually means that you put more than 50% of your weight all by sudden on your cervical spine. So it's all by sudden, 30 kilos on your neck, which was absolutely not prepared for that. And you just, you know, you have your office work and you go to yoga once a week or once a week or you just start all by sudden, you do these, you do these. And then you might not experience anything serious after the first time you did the pose and then it's more free, you can come with time. So you just keep repeating it. And then it adds on, it adds on and at the end, you can be quite adventurous. So yeah, so like one has to be such super cautious with this pose. And that's why for me and what I do and also that's what Charlotte was teaching and also that's what I teach my students. I don't teach myself. I do, I mean, I do, but the version that you hang on like, so you have a rope and ropes around your hips and then you go up, so you know. And then also, and then again, not for everyone. So because this only means that your neck is safe, but it doesn't mean like, but it's still upside down. So you need to be cautious, like of all the contraindications which you have, there is quite some. So if someone has high blood pressure, if someone has high intraocular pressure, if someone has the heart problem, so there's like a long list of contraindications still. So this one first, and it's a similar shoulder span. So shoulder span, that's a really big one. I can talk forever, so stop me if I, even if it's too long. So when it comes to shoulders and basically, I never, ever, neither do or teach or teach shoulder stand without support. So shoulder stand, you need at least five blankets. You need to make a height. If you don't put the height under your shoulders and you do it on the floor, then basically less than the shoulder stand, you do them all next to you. Right. And that's super dangerous. And then also, especially if you do the next step and then you turn your hand to the side because you look at your teacher, then right now. So like lots of stuff like that. So like shoulder stand, one that's super careful. And then also at the beginning, oh, that's why I was talking back then, like, you know, that you start with a lot of, so basically the top also straight away, you're on your neck and you put your leg behind your head and then that's to just back much more. So like first walk with your feet on the wall, then you check how it feels. You stay on the wall for a long time first to learn where it's your shoulder, learn how it's feeling in your neck and then maybe one day you try to go further. But people are impatient, the same problem. Students are impatient. They come, they don't know how to stand on their feet and but they already want to stand on their head. And that's what you do. Yeah, please don't hesitate about speaking out everything. I'm very interested to hear all of it. So, and I appreciate you sharing this. And that also actually leads me to another similar question is especially these days, because yoga I think is very popular. It's almost like a fashion statement sometimes, including yoga pants and whatnot, but then, and you also have all these Instagram, for example, Instagram influencers, superstars, or some of them yogis. And they often demonstrate, but that also applies on a regular class. I think it happens on regular class as well. But we see these hyper flexible people who do these incredibly complicated postures, twist themselves in all shapes and forms or complicated forms of headstands, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think it kind of sets up this idea that that's what yoga is about or that this is like the end goal of every yogi. And I think it's, and I can say I've been there myself as a, when I started learning yoga when I was 19, I was actually one of the least flexible people in the group because I trained not in a smart way in the past, but then I would see my instructors do these hyper flexible moves. And I would try to kind of push myself to the edge to replicate that. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. But looking at that whole hyper flexibility and all those very difficult, complicated postures, would you say it's, part of it, part of my question is, would you say it's okay to do them in general? Like if you reach that high, high level of flexibility, does it make sense at all to do it? And on the other hand, what dangers are there for people, especially who are not ready to try to do that? So kind of a mix of those two. Yeah, it's a great question. So basically, yeah, that's definitely very tricky. And like it's actually one of the biggest danger, I would say like three, which I see myself as well, that there is now this connotation of yoga and means like doing acrobatic exercises. And because that's how you see the magazines, that's how you see it. Like even if you Google yoga, the images you see is like scorpion pose or other. Like very, very, very advanced. And these beliefs that that's what it is about, and especially having again and coming back and over and over again, but it's very important. Having this mindset that we see so often these days, like achiever mindset, ego driven mindset, like thinking that I need to be decent that and that is dangerous because that's how it hurts yourself. And then like to me, what yoga is about ideally or how I find it like with my personal view, it's like really, and that's what I try to teach as well. It's like you really get to understand how your body works. You really get to understand yourself. You use the poses to like, yes, obviously to your health and improve your one of them flexibility and strength, but mainly to just reconnect with your body because we all live in the head a lot. And with computer era, everyone's in the head. So what happens now? People are in the head, disconnected from their body. They see their mind. No, this is okay, this is what it is about. And from their head is connected from the body. They go for these difficult moments and that's when they get hurt. And then what happens in the class often? I mean, well, let's see. I don't want to also to say, you know, generalize too much, like not to hurt people's feeling, but what happens, what can happen is like for example, forward events, these are very dangerous again, poses. And because they are quite strenuous for the spine and then we know all, I think most of you know that someone like bent forward, not on yoga class, just trying to get something from the floor and didn't make it to straight enough. And that's also because like people have very poor posture, really poor movements in general. So they go to yoga class. And then if they are just said, you know, put, try to go down and put your hands on the floor. And then they focus his hands on the floor in the forward bend, like teacher does. Then they go now, they don't have the flexibility press usually in their hips to do that. So they compensate. Where do they compensate? Like they use what they're small by anyway. So they abuse it basically. And that's how their spine gets worse. So that's why I think very important that as you teach poses or if you show them like you should really concentrate on the direction rather than reserve. So rather than showing people like, oh, look how beautiful like this head is here. And then people, yeah, they'll be able. It's rather like, no, like yoga is about acceptance. So first you start your step where you're at. Then you try to understand where you're going to basically the movement. Then you do your best. And then you let go of the resets. And then you don't come for yourself to balance. Basically that's how you should be. Especially the coming back to the fact that you guys are important to me. And coming back to what poses are dangerous. He's like, for example, noticed. And that's what happens to many teachers. And that was recently the article. Don't you remember which newspaper was it? About like how many of your teachers have key replacements these days. And it's because as a yoga teacher, many teachers. I also think it's like you think you should be able to do these poses like students might not, you have to. So people like force themselves to do lotes. But what we need to understand again is that like when it comes to lotes and it comes to your hips, lots of things are decided. For example, the fact if you would be able to ever do the lot safely in your life is decided during your first 10 years of your life. So if you started your yoga when you were more than that or you're even 20s, 30s or later on, then slow down because hip joints, hip joints is actually not mature when you're born. So it's still like lots of cartilage there. And it's same as you think about the clay. So a clay, if you make a pot of clay, like as long as it's wet, so it's a cartilage, yes, then you can shake it, you can change it, you know. So if you're lucky enough that during the space of your life, you sit on the floor, you squat in the toilet, walk a lot, you know, you keep your hips open, you're lucky, you'll probably, yes, will be able to do your lotes, but if your parents put you in the chair or your childhood, then probably, and then you sit on the toilet and then probably you won't. Because exactly the same in this metaphor with the clay, well, once your pot made of clay is dry, you should then try to change it, you can change it. And exactly the same applies to our hips. It doesn't mean that they will know that there's nothing you can do, yes, they can still, you can gain more flexibility at all, but you have to be very slow, very careful, remembering what you're working with, and then not trying to push it, because otherwise you can just damage permanency. All right. Yeah, so I know already it was long. Oh no. I didn't answer your question. 100%, I asked something in addition to that, but I wanted to say, again, please don't hold yourself back. I really appreciate you speaking about that, and it's exactly what I'm looking for. So that's very good. One part that I did want to add as a question is a hyper-flexibility itself. I overheard this once, and I just never had a chance to confirm it. So I'm curious to what's your opinion that apparently potentially hyper-flexibility is not healthy to begin with, like if the joints are, if the muscles are joints are too flexible, I guess you already have something to say about that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, and that's another thing. So, like, flexibly, I'm less worried about the stiff students than the flexible ones, because stiff ones, they have natural limitations. They will not go far. But the flexible ones, they don't have these limitations. And then usually it just means that depending on your body structure, like, they have just those ligaments. And ligaments, they have very important functions. They are there to protect your joints, basically. So, and it's always like, I would say strength before flexibility, and you have just flexibility, if you don't have any strength, then it is dangerous. And then that's why, like, actually over-flexible people are very attracted to yoga because it's common that you're attracted to what is eating. And I guess you can see this, well, like the positive, they are nice and busy, or we really like to do it often, and they are those, but actually those we need are the different ones. Like the ones that we are not so good at. And that's why actually, stiff people, they should go to yoga classes, or like, I mean, everyone should go to yoga classes. But yes, but then, and then they will, because these, they will push themselves too much, even though they should like build their strength to be able to protect the joints and to protect themselves, because they are just simply collapsing, they're just too loose. So that's a very important question, a very important topic. And yes, they should work more on building their strength to basically be able to hold themselves together. Yeah, again, I really appreciate you saying that. And that actually, again, just it's a question after a question that I'm heading on, and I hope I'm not asking, I'm not going to bombard you with too many complicated questions. But again, I'm just, I'm happy to have a person who has the ability to answer. One of the subjects that I bring up sometimes as a thought, I read and actually got that idea from a book, which I enjoyed a lot about kind of the, the bright and the dark side of yoga. But I'm really curious to hear your opinion. So when you look at, when we look at the world of medicine in general, and I think Switzerland is a kind of a, almost too much of an example, but from the experience I gathered, knowledge I gather in Switzerland, it's really difficult to get, like if you're not a medical expert, like let's say you want to do acupuncture or some other alternative type of medicine, they're really strict about the conditions to let the people do it. And I personally feel like that's actually a good thing because that happens with alternative medicine, but even worse, I think with yoga, we kind of, it's kind of in a gray zone. We don't, most people don't recognize it as a medical practice or they don't put that much emphasis on it. It's kind of like a hobby, a thing to do. And so then we get those instructors who, those people who go to India or anywhere pass a three week course, have no further knowledge or beforehand knowledge, and they go back and teach, having very little education, very little knowledge of what they do, what's really working, what's not working. And there's no one to supervise that. And to me, that's a bit scary. And when I think about the people I know that, I don't want to be too heavy, but it's my honest opinion that from the people I met who taught yoga, like who are my, let's say colleagues or friends from that realm, I would be willing to say that most of them wouldn't get permission to teach if there was a high standard of safety measures for like whether they're allowed to teach or not. But what do you personally think about that concept idea of some kind of a governmental structure or universal recognition of what's the minimum you have to know to be allowed to teach yoga? Do you think that's a good idea or is it difficult to make it happen? So what do you think? Yeah, it's a tricky question because I would say that if that it would apply to everyone, like not only yoga teachers, but everyone who works with the body. So there's yoga, but there is also fitness, there is also martial arts. Like I personally know a person who's who got seriously injured during the martial arts classes and who's cool, cool. And when I heard the stories, I was like, what did you ever do? And then so wherever you go, like, you know, martial arts, fitness classes, personal trainers, like everyone work with the body like should take some responsibility. So yes, like, you know, especially in Switzerland or everywhere, like we try to like have everything. I don't know, like this diploma, this diploma, it's sometimes it's always also too much like that, you know, that you suffocate. And it's also like what I was finding sometimes maybe people in medicine, because like then all everything about guidelines, like a guide like that, guide like that. And then you have to follow. You don't follow, you know, then you are in trouble. But, and it's a kind of also, some extent, it's like that, you know, where many people take yoga as an art and then, you know, you can have different angles, but definitely I would agree that anyone work with people, body like they should try at least to, you know, to understand as much as possible. I don't know if necessarily with official certification or not, but also, and I think it's like double important that like one thing to the teacher, but second thing is a student. And then any of us as a student like shoots, and we also as a teacher, it's really apparent to students like really trust themselves and really listen to their bodies because sometimes they tend to like feeling that your nose bested or saying like that's what happens in medicine like patient often comes to you and it's like, okay, this is my body fix it and then give it back to me when you sleep. But no, also, also like the patient and not some student, it's the responsibility needs to like teacher proposes something like who is best, this person's best knowledge and best intentions. And then it can be great for one person, but then for another one. And then especially it's a tricky group of classes. That's why I'm on Continental Center at Fusion Fiving Classes because in group classes, you have, even if you have five people or 10 people, like each of them very often, you have like over flexible one and then we're still funding opposite things, like you propose one thing and it's a great one, have another one. So this is, this is now. And that's why people like need to like keep it in mind like during to trust themselves, to listen to their body, they feel any doubt, discomfort, anything that you need to leave the post immediately. And even if it's a pressure thing, especially I think it's a challenge for any teacher, even the best teacher, also experienced one in 40 years of experience and they have like 20 people or 30 or sometimes they're supposed to have 40 or 60 people in one group. And then they propose something, but it doesn't really apply to everyone. And then especially if someone decides to go to group classes, they really need to keep it in mind and ideally be reminded by the teacher that if anything feels wrong, then they should feel leave the post immediately. Or even if someone asked them to do the headstand, they have freedom to say no. And then they should really like be cautious, and then if anything feels wrong in your own body, then and then you leave the post and then if the teacher pressures you to do it, then you can just leave the post and do it for another group. And this way like trial and error, put a mark on it. So you just, you know, you look, you also take responsibility to look for your teacher, to research your teacher and to, you know, to do all the necessary homework yourself. At the moment. Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that. That's what I think as well. And it's sometimes too bad that there is that peer pressure. And like, especially if, and I've been there too, being the least flexible person in the group, you see everyone else doing these hyper poses. And then it feels like I have to do that. Even if the instructor says, you don't have to, there is a bit of that peer pressure, but it makes it so much worse if the culture is about enforcing that and suggesting that no, you should push through. But actually, there's one part which really frustrates me. Personally, and I'm curious if you feel a similar way about that. I don't know how common that is in various yoga schools, but I know of one specific school who would, or line of teaching, where pushing the students into the poses was a practice. I saw your eyebrows being raised, so I presume you feel a similar way about that. But so basically, yeah, a person would be, let's say, even like a forward bend, and the instructor would come and push. And I actually spoke with a friend of mine just recently who said he was in one of the major yoga studios in London. And the instructor was, let's say a pusher. And enough, my friend, who's not about, he's not like a polite person who would not say no. The instructor came to push and he said, please don't do it, I don't want that. And then the instructor would say, I know what I'm doing, trust me, I'm gonna do it anyway. And he would say, he would repeat it again. Like he said it, I think, three times. And the instructor kept insisting until basically they just had this conflict, which is ridiculous, but I think it happens, it does happen, it's not like a one-time thing. But again, I have this feeling that you're not fond of yoga teachers pushing people into poses. No, I mean, like one has to be just so super careful with corrections, so like for yoga teachers to be corrections and manual corrections will come and then they have to do it in the pose. And I think one can never be careful enough. And if students says no, no means no. Like we need to respect that. And for our bands, like, and I, yes, I'm like super sensitive about this stuff, because myself, I got hurt like that. So I got to talk about it, yes. But I, as I said, I started my practice when I was 16, so it was pretty young and healthy. And then actually I developed back problem and hip problem due to yoga. And that's exactly what happened to me. So basically like being pushed, like first being pushing myself. And I think at the time I didn't really yet understand how to do the forward bends. I find them very, very dangerous as well. If you don't understand what is the purpose. And if you have this idea in your mind that it's all about grabbing, like, you know, grabbing your feet and pushing yourself to your leg and your hands are strong. So you can't do it yourself, even worse, when someone comes to you and do it to you. And what happened to me? I already was having a bit of an issue. And then I was doing Pashti Mottanasana, with super experienced teacher. Like I couldn't find more experienced teacher than this one. He was, you know, practicing with my anger family for a long time at all, great thing. So I was trusting him a lot. And then what happened, I was doing Pashti Mottanasana, I was like, yeah, I'm getting flexible. So what he decided to do, not only with his hands. Oh, so I explained with this Pashti Mottanasana, I know you know, but in general, so basically you sit with your legs straight and then you grab your feet and then you bend forward towards your legs. So I grabbed my feet, like my head was about like more or less on my knees level. And then the teacher decided to help me in the pose and he actually, and he was quite heavy, sat on my back in the pose. And then I couldn't breathe, obviously. And it sounds drastic, it was drastic. And yes, so basically that was, I just don't know what you were saying. And I was like, first of all, I couldn't talk. Oh my God, I was squashed, I was like, I was trying to breathe. And then he let everyone out of the pose and he kept me in the pose, like, you know, with all his weight, like, so this huge weight and like my spine is very vulnerable position on the forward back. So that was really his thing. And since then it got even worse. And so to the extent that I really had to, like even stop practicing for some time. And then when I stopped practicing, I felt a little better, but then I was trying to come back to the practice and then with the practice, I would get the symptoms again, the pain and everything. So it took me years to understand, like what I was doing wrong. And actually it put me on this path of trying to find out like how to move, not only in yoga mat, but in general, like how to move in a healthy way. So it's like really, I think it's yoga, practice yoga doesn't matter if it's yoga practice. You need to understand, like the movement itself, like how you come into the pose, doesn't matter the final pose, doesn't matter how the pose look at the end. You need to understand how you go in and then check and then you need to be patient and check on every millimeter and this pain really taught me that, that you go one millimeter, then you check, and then you go further and then it takes time, it takes patience. And we are not patient, but it's the only way to me. So no pushing. And no, and if the student says, no, you need to respect it. All right, 100%. And I'm happy you agree because I just get so frustrated. Even when I think about that, I just get so mad. And then I, yeah, I'm happy to hear that your perspective is the same. And one more thing is something I wanted to ask initially already and you actually brought it up yourself, the aspect of group training. And I find it as well, like with accumulated knowledge that I gathered and kind of I dissected and looked at what I did not know about yoga. And I realized, oh, that's probably, that wasn't a good idea from even myself teaching. As you mentioned, people have very different backgrounds in regards to their bodies and their traumas, the experience. And these days like pretty much everyone has some pain somewhere or some injury. But then usually the way yoga classes are taught is it's generalized. It's everybody does the same thing. Maybe sometimes there's degrees, like even myself or other instructors, they would show like, this is level one, this is level two, this is level three, but still we're all doing more or less the same thing. So it's really complicated situation. On the other hand, though, what would your advice be for this approach? Like how can yoga instructors make that situation somewhat better if it's possible to make sure that that's adjusted to? Yeah, it's a very good vision and very difficult to answer because for me, myself also, I find very difficult. And that's why at the moment, I mainly give private classes, because I find them like the most, they bring me the most, I think they're the best for both teacher and student because then you can really focus on this person and then you can meet them where they are at, like in terms of everything basically. Even the way they feel this way, this day, and then you can really get to know your student well because what is happening in the group class is that you have quite a random bunch of people. So depends on like, there are some of those classes, but in most of the studios where it's like, you can come whenever you want by the pass. And so, and then even there is not even as no one even subscribed for a class. So you just get to see your students and they're like, they're in their class. So it's even difficult to plan your class beforehand. And so that's why ideally, ideally I love to practice like one, two, one, one in one. And then I have time to do like, take various little proper interviews or to find out like all the medical history, all the things that I can observe this person and all. So this is ideal. And especially if someone has any institutions, but in general, yes. But obviously, like first of all, private classes are in general like more expensive. And like many people also like to go to yoga school because this is a community as well. So there's social aspect and there's this group energy. And then also I keep giving, not many, but I keep giving some group classes and I like it too. But then like for me, I'm just super conscious. So I usually do like simplify these classes. So I just level rather to the student, which is sometimes also, some it's been frustrating like when you have students like coming to the class every day or like every week they're in your class and then you have someone who is there for the first time at the same time. And then you can somehow find the balance. And it's, yeah, it's tricky for myself. So I try to, you know, make it as safe as I can. I try to cover something from students. I rather go for the easier stuff than the cheaper one. And, yes, and I try to remind them over and over, like, you know, don't be ambitious. They're ambitious enough outside, just, you know, listen to your body and, but, and also I think that's it's be like, like people like, you know, listen to yourself, not necessarily follow what they say, like check how it is in your very body I think that's really good to remind them that because otherwise they just forcing themselves, they wouldn't be anyway. Me too. I agree, that was actually my experience as well. And it's one of the parts which I'm happy that because when I look back at my career as a yoga instructor I'm very unsatisfied about many things like how I was taught and how I taught others because of the lack of knowledge I had. But one of the things I'm happy is both of what my instructors gave and both what I even emphasized even more in myself is what you mentioned, that being super cautious, being always reminding the students, like don't push it, don't push it. Like as you said, most people still will push it but then I noticed too, like if I say 10 times it'll still decrease their level of ambitiousness. And so, yeah, I think that's it. Usually I just like, especially if I see them pushing themselves I just come and say like, this post is not about that. You know, for example with forward bend. Like, because you can, that's very easy actually to see. You know, where they are, like if they compensate or not. Compensate meaning like, you know, because they don't have any flexibility, hamstrings in the pelvis, so they're just fine. And then you can see it immediately. So when I just like, no, come back up, take a look. And then like, you know, if you have, but usually I try to check on as many as they can and just get them equipment and try to make them fine about using it. Because by some people feel for some reason that using equipment using proxies, I don't know, say they don't give good advice with them. But it's also the limitations I think are very important. There's a few more questions that I'd like to ask. And one of them is kind of an intermediate one. Almost funny to review, but also scary at the same time. So I don't have a yoga book with me at the moment where I'm at, but I have vivid memories of reading some of the classical yoga books. And not like even that old, like, I guess, just like from 10 years ago, written by Indian yoga instructors, or even there's some, I think that that knowledge was passed on to the West. But there would be some, in my opinion, ridiculous explanations of what some postures do. Like the example I remember as one of the main ones I like to give is for example, that was written in the book that the triangle reduces the fat on the hips or something like that. And it's just, I think it's just a fairly common, hopefully it's decreasing, but I think it's a fairly common phenomena for yoga, some of the yoga books to explain what are the benefits of the posture without actual source of knowledge, without any scientific proof. And some of them just go way off, I think. And I'm curious, have you bumped in some of those as well where you read and said, this does not make any sense and maybe you have some examples as well. Well, so yeah, it's a good question. So yes, there's plenty of books and plenty of websites, plenty of body fields. Saying like this post for that and this post for that and this and this miracle effect. And this has another. And I think, well, like it's also difficult to answer because what also makes yoga different than like let's say medical science is that in medicine, you really have to prove anything and you make a research on it. But it's tricky because like then you really have to find this thing that is working on this exact thing and you have to make sure that it's really connection between the two and you have a trial group and all. But in yoga, it's more about personal experience. So it does not necessarily come from the research which has a good reason because it's very difficult to make research on yoga. Now there's more and more but if you look for the research that was made, it's quite general, like showing the general like some people with back pain they become better or that the people that reduce anxiety and it's difficult to check is that this post is actually doing what they are claiming that it is doing and that's probably coming more from the experience of this theory of yoga. And I think it's like there's no danger in it. And it might be that because they were this way and there's no harm for it. And it's actually, I lost the thought that actually it's also yoga. It comes like together. So because you do all different things then that's how it improves usually for many people. It improves the way you breathe and your digestion and it improves the way you move. And it's true because for many different reasons because of many different purchases because you move better, because you settle this into your body, because you trust your diet for all these or when you have vegetarians and this is really proof of a very good effect on the health. So yeah, so I think that there are things like that. Sometimes they are used for the market but there is nothing, yeah, there's no harm. As long as we don't make it this way because of that. But yeah, since it's not proofed but it doesn't mean it's not proofed, we just don't know. And I think also on medical side of view it's like what I was like in the medicine, it's a bit of like admitting that we don't know and we cannot check everything with the research that there are limits to it and then there are things beyond it. And that's what I like about yoga and it's kind of in some aspects beyond here with yoga. That's a great answer. I really like how you answered it and how you also maintain a sense of balance here because I tend to, especially when I go I appreciate both sides. I appreciate that there's a very positive side to yoga obviously as well. But when I dig into the dark side I usually just kind of, you know. I want to destroy this and I enjoy how you are balancing it in a very gentle way. So it's a nice answer. And I just have a couple more questions. And but one of them, it will probably take a whole different episode to conversation to unwrap the whole subject that I'll bring in. But for this this time, I'll just want to ask your kind of a general opinion in terms of yoga as a spiritual practice. And again, forgive me everyone for this but I'm looking at the dark side of it today. And just wanting to ask you in terms of yoga having the spiritual side do you feel like there's any danger with that element of it? Like people, let's say going with I don't know it's a kind of a white subject but hopefully I can just ask you for a general opinion but let's say people going with sensitive mindset or like mental health issues do you hear of occurrences where yoga can be dangerous for people like that and when it really is spiritual or anything else you have to say something about that? Well, this is for me personally important to answer because I've been for most of all the years I've been practicing yoga, I was very much down to earth. So I was not really exploring this. I mean, I was exploring in terms of I was really from the very beginning interested in the texts like classical texts about yoga or I would read Bhagavad Gita or you know, like I was like all about yamas and yamas like all these types of things I found really interesting for myself. So and it really helped me at the time because like as I said, I was young so then like you have this like inspiration to be moral in your life that for me myself it was very helpful. So it helped me, it really introduced me to these Ahimsa so that you really don't hurt others or you don't hurt yourself and you really pay attention to it like there you can do. So for me, this spiritual side it's still like kind of spiritual, it really helped me and that's like what I read about it and all the philosophy I got to know. But I think that yoga is like it brings this like kind of at least can help to spark this spirituality in people just by the fact that they suddenly like in Shavasana last post like so when you just lay down. And then they usually know and they relax and then they can for a moment they're like encouraged to just be in the moment for a second not to think that I am these, I am, I don't know. I have engineers, I work there and like this is my ego and I always have my plants with their memories and they kind of have a moment out of it. And I think that like I've seen it in many people that really like opens their life to something like it brings more space in their lives. But when it comes like the spiritual spiritual like when it comes to the rituals and that you have to do like some weird stuff like I always like just I'll stay away from it. So same for yoga, same for meditation. So in Shavasana it's like as simple as it can be no rituals involved. And that's what I was always attracted to. So it's difficult for me to say because I don't have like personal experience with like more, more, more stuff. But probably there is some of the stuff about it too and Ben, but I don't have enough experience with it. Great. Well, something you mentioned now and actually in the beginning of the conversation is I think you just slightly mentioned but I definitely caught my attention is that we're so much in our heads these days and we're very much an intellectual society always thinking about the future, the past and analyzing and trying to understand things always looking at the screen and collecting information. And when I used to teach myself I kept being kind of attentive to that idea as well. And one of the ways I presented yoga or I kind of I would keep asking myself so why do you teach yoga? Why would I not send people to just a fitness instructor per se? And one of my main answers was because yoga also has that quality of bringing the people into the moment. People would usually really be happy about the Shavasana part and I felt that's a great thing. People wouldn't stop unless they're going to sleep but otherwise usually people don't stop in their daily lives. They're always kind of doing something and then in a yoga class they're not necessarily forced but they have the conditions to do that. So that was like an important part for me. I wonder if you put that as an emphasis on yoga as well. And plus with that, how do you describe like what makes yoga unique to you? Why choose yoga instead of just fitness? Yeah, so that's a great question. It's just very true what you said. It's very true for me as well. So basically yes, exactly that. So like yoga, okay, starting from the beginning. So yes, like we are very much like as a generation especially in the head, even more like now, not even in the head, but in some virtual world that doesn't even exist. The enemy may exist out of your head but there's more like virtual stuff and always under all this pressure and overstimulated. Like we're really stimulated all the time, like the exhaustion. So I think that like I find and that's what being young for me for all of years, like it's like a safe place where you can go and you can for at least this time, you can just forget like, you know, about all your tasks, about who you think you are and then just come back to your body and just really reconnect that's for me what it is like you reconnect and then you and then because like movement itself and physical side of it like actually helps you to treat your mind. Because if you just sit and observe your mind for most of people like you need to go for a treat. So actually in your way you treat your mind a bit. So it's challenging. You also learn, you know, to stay because we are like, I'll call it Facebook generation. So either like and dislike everything all the time, conscious or unconscious, not even a generation. It's like a human nature. Like we respond to everything with a judgment. I like it, I don't like it, I like it, I don't like it. And then in yoga, there's lots of focus on that, you know, the acceptance of what happens, acceptance of your limitations in the poses but still trying to do your best. So then you accept that you can't, then you realize the limitations but you're not being lazy. But still you try to do and then you concentrate your mind to try to listen to your body and then you do it for some period of time. And then it's very important that at the end there is this moment where there is shavasana. So the relaxation and then you remove the effort of it and then you just leave your observation of what is happening. You just cure acceptance and then you just stay there. And for me, and then also the fact that ideally it's not competitive that it's, you're there on your mats, you're alone even if it's room full of people but you're alone and it doesn't matter what is doing the person next to you and then you just get to know yourself, get to know your body and to like say hello to your toes. I'm such a good person. Yeah, and you say hello to your hand and then you also just realize how patient your body was with you because people abused their bodies all day long. Like the way I'm such a good person but like, yes yoga is dangerous but what all any S.T.S. Galactic what's more dangerous is that yoga or a kidney or M.P. Gales you do one hour per day or two hours per day but the question is what you do for the rest of the time. Most of the time, many people sitting in front of computer like completely abusing their body in the portion they take, not even realizing it. And then I hope that that's the awareness that yoga can bring and really change life because then you're sitting in front of your computer but maybe you'll get there, maybe you will get to listen to your body before it has to shout and say that something's wrong. So to me that's the main difference between yoga and then it also opens your mind to new ideas like all the Ahimsa stuff and just like even realizing that you're alive I think it's really, we tend to forget like how unique it is that we are here and it's not prolonged and then everything's changing. So lots of things, I can talk about it forever but I stopped my day. I really like your answer again. I really appreciate it. I think it's a great perspective and I think probably this will be my last question and it's almost like a follow up to what you said in terms of the positive side and I'll just say a quick disclaimer. One of the reasons I started this chain of conversations of exploring yoga kind of the, well the dark side of yoga I tend to focus on it partly because I feel the positive side is being already spoken around everywhere especially yoga instructors or like yoga journal or big yoga organizations they're very invested into talking positive about yoga because they need their clients and their reputation but it's harder to come across information about some of the lacking sides. The downside to this for me is that when I make videos like that then people think that I think that yoga is horrible and that's it so I wanted to make sure to balance that out and before we end the conversation you already mentioned a lot of very positive aspects of yoga but because I asked you a lot about the dark side of this kind of the physical side of yoga to shift the conversation and I'd like to ask you about the positive side of the physical aspects of yoga again as a doctor and as a yoga instructor what benefits have you seen yourself? Like have you seen people healing long term traumas, injuries or people just becoming more healthy? Like what was your observation in regards to like physical health through yoga? So I think what we need to also mention before answering these questions is that yoga is a very general term. So yoga is huge. So there is yoga, ayanga yoga, there is ashlanga yoga, there is vinyasa style, there is this style, that style, hot yoga, sorry, like it's really huge. So it's really difficult as well to talk general about it because I think like also for those who listen that they might not realize that there are these differences and so what applies to one side does not necessarily apply to another side. So that's a tricky part of it. And also about like talking about downside or the positive side of things. Then again it really depends a lot on which side your practicing depends a lot on who you're practicing with. So even within the same style you'll have different teachers and different perspectives. And then also you'll have different outcome different positive and negative side. But so keeping that in mind, what are the positive sides of yoga I've seen on the physical level a lot. So basically also about talking about like my students or other people I've seen, they improve definitely their body awareness which is physically it's like on the border of the team but because they develop these awareness then they are like quicker realizing that something is going wrong and it's very important because normally people just don't realize until it's too late. And then they really when it comes to back pain it's really I've seen like huge progress in many people. Also keeping in mind that back pain is a symptom. It's not actual disease. Symptoms has different reasons. And that's why like I really am not a fan of like 10 poses for back pain because it's the same. So like, yes, it might help people with this kind of reason for that but it's absolutely contraindicated for this population with as well. But anyway, yes, so basically the people get stronger, they get many, they at least elevate the back pain and then they move better and then many times they also the digestion becomes better. I've seen it's also on the border of the pool but people suffering from some equal neurosis. So basically they are stressed and then they have like all different kinds of pains which are actually coming from the psychological stress. They like it was also my case when I started yoga they had lots of like the weird pains. I thought I had a hard time at the age of 16 but I didn't, I was just stressed. And these kinds of pains like they disappeared in one month. And also just because yoga especially the small like mindful way of practicing hopefully as well really helps to reduce stress or not. Yeah, also, yeah, I think actually any type of yoga they have to really, really stress and stress is a risk factor in almost every disease that we can find. And also it helps to change your whole lifestyle. So actually to change people with stress in their life is because they start to practice yoga. So usually it means that they got surrounded by people who have quite healthy lifestyle. So then little by little they start to change the way they did their life. They make more more, they eat more vegetables they drink more, they move more. And all in all in total it really brings a huge change in their life. I don't know if I answered your question. Oh yeah, you answered all questions really well. So I appreciate it. And the very last part for people who are interested to know more about you potentially living in your area or maybe you offer, especially these days it's kind of a common thing, a common question about online courses, private classes. Is there some online resource or anything that could help people find you and work about your work? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I have my, so yeah, these days I've learned, I've learned to also do yoga, to do online classes and actually I was surprised that they were, well obviously it's the different things that we do online classes in life. Classes like, just, but still it works out. So so into that I do also like classes and also group classes in offer. And, but all of these it's on my website. So I have a website, yoga, slash marketing, and there are all of them. Is there information in English there as well? Or is it just? It's only English. It's only English. Only English. Great. Yeah, so my friends know what to do and yeah, they're learning, but it's only English. And I mainly teach in English. I've been in French as well, but my friend is not as great as I usually am. So yeah, so yoga, again, yeah, yoga, slash marketing, I don't see it. Oh, just in case, I'll make sure to clarify and I'll leave the link, so. Ah, perfect. I have feelings there will be people who will be inspired to contact with you because you know way more than most yoga instructors I would presume. So great, but thank you very much. That was a really nice conversation. That was exactly what I was looking for and I won't be surprised if somewhere down the road in the future I'll write you again because there's so much positive and good knowledge and I really enjoyed your approach as well to it all. So thank you very much. Thank you for the conversation. Thank you too. I really enjoyed talking to you and also the way you do the interview and how much space you leave and how open and positive you are, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, that's a lot to me.