 Recent events in Mali have been a big shock to us. We've always looked upon Mali as somewhere that is peace, stability and democratic space. Today we have with us Aminata Tarore, who is a very well-known figure in Mali and politics. Aminata, good to have you with us in NewsClick. Do you think this recent developments will make an enormous difference to Mali? Because we as Mali and we have been surprised first by the dimension of the violence. Because suddenly we were facing, in addition to the Touareg rebellion, the Islamists of Al Qaeda, who were far from the cities like Qidal, Gau and Timbuktu, gained in the field their project to dominate the two-thirds of our territory. So it's a psychologically and politically big shock. But I think that the weakness of our country came also from the Libyan War. I mean the war imposed on Liby by the NATO countries. So as a result, these groups can have a lot of arms now compared to the National Army. They became a force. And the last news regarding the destruction of Mosul because the fundamentalist Islam doesn't accept the way we as Africans practice Islam. One of the arguments has been that the collapse in Libya has made a lot of arms available and that is destabilizing the nearby states. So what do you think of the impact of the collapse in Libya has been for Mali? A lot of people were fearing this consequence. Now it's here. But in just this system that we are living, once a million people to solve themselves, this problem is one of the consequences of the dominant country to go and try to impose their democracy to Libya. So a lot of countries are suffering the consequence. One of them is the migrant situation. A lot of West African, Sahelian and even non-Sahelian Africans were working in Libya. And the money they sent in Mali was one of the main components of our financial resources. So after the collapse of Libya, we are facing first the aggravation of poverty because there are thousands of workers coming back from Libya. And on the other side, the group of rebels and the others coming also to Mali. Do you think what has happened in Mali is the unintended consequence of the collapse in Libya? Or do you think that imperialism or US imperialism has a positive intent of breaking up states in the region? I think that people are gaining in terms of social and political awareness. So far we were a few to say that actually the majority of economic and political problems we are facing are due to the unequal aspect of the relationship between a so-called rich country and us. Tragedy is taking place in one of the parts of our country. One of the characteristics of the place is anger. Before the rebellion and all this last aspect of the problem, we were, you know, most of the people were just questioning how are we going to do to face anger. But in addition to anger, we are now in this situation where the National Administration had to abandon the place which is now in the hands of rebels on one side and Islamists on the other. The Tuareg demand for independent northern state in Mali has been there for quite some time. The link of the Islamists is quite recent. What do you think is the reason for this? Islamist presence is a recent phenomenon. But they were in, you know, the remote place of the desert, not in the towns. But I think that France under Nicolas Sarkozy was expecting, you know, to have a Tuareg, to have partners, you know, to struggle against acne. Finally, at the end of this process, you know, we say that they played with the fire. And they are now we, because I don't know if France cares a lot about what is happening. They think it's a maliant business. It's to us to solve the problem. But they create a problem for us, you know. Do you think there is an element of France wanting to keep control over its former colonies and resources? Is that the root of the problem? Yes. That was their expectation. Because, you know, the main issue is for colonial, you know, system is how to have access of energetic resources of this region, main uranium and petrol. The whole issue like in Libya and Afghanistan, Iraq is the same. So far, we in Western Africa, we were just, you know, watching what is happening elsewhere. Now, the same process is at our doors. And there is also the willingness of, from the US and European country, if you want to, how to stop the so-called emergent country, you know, to gain in competitivity, to gain this war, economic war of croissance, growth. France knows that they need their former colonies and resources. We now also have the emergence of this new form of Islam, which, as you have said, is not the way West Africa has been practicing Islam. Do you see this a long-term threat to the societies in this region? If I look at what is happening in Maghreb countries like Tunisia, Egypt, even Libya, when they create the problem, I'm afraid because the majority of the power, the poor people are trying, you know, to find answers to their problem in religion, as you know. And in the absence of a state, because states have been destroyed by structural adjustment policy, I think the roots of the problem is also in the neoliberal reforms that has been imposed on our countries. For three decades, the Malian state had to abandon the people, telling them, you know, do by yourself what we as a state were supposed to do for you. So while the state is withdrawing itself, you know, trying to please, you know, the donors, by taking care of their interests over each country and leaving the people, you know, to do what they can do to survive, religious took the place. They took the place by going, while politicians and even, you know, the associations are, you know, in speeches, the religious was in the field. In the field by, you know, trying to solve the problems of water, food, and they are gaining in terms of confidence and confidence. How do they confidence? I know before the events we are witnessing now, a lot of poor people are, you know, looking, are going to the mosque. There is a tendency now of religions to gain. Do you see the Boko Haram group in Nigeria also influencing what is happening in Mali? But there is a lot of solidarity between Boko Haram and Mujoba. They are the same. They are playing the same game. They are together. We don't see so far, you know, opposition between them. They are just three names of the same, you know, in the same project. If you see the kind of groups which have taken power in Northern Mali, these are also some of the groups which the imperial powers like France and United States have been backing in Libya. Do you think that the realignments that is taking place, including the fundamentalists, is something which the imperialism is instigating in this part of the region? For me, Islamist groups are supported by Arabic countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia. And Salafis are coming from there. So I don't know how, you know, politically they could, you know, progress without, you know, the financial support of US, France, I'm not that sure. But I think that we have still to look at the link between US interests and the Islamists. They are fighting Islamists. They are some areas, as Bola, you know, Amas. But in some other areas, if they own, I think the life, people's lives don't count. The only thing they care about is their interests. Last question. How do you see the Malian people resist what has happened? What is happening in Northern Mali is something which could be very dangerous for Mali in this region. So how do you see it develop? The problem is that we, you know, we didn't prepare the people politically and psychologically, you know, to question what is happening. I think that it's just, they were there in a context where Western government, you know, it says, oh, everything is funny. You are, it's fine in your country. You are a good democracy. You have good economic performance. Even if the ordinary people couldn't, you know, see what was done in this area. But this is the image, the built about Mali. So people themselves, they knew that they were in a facing problem. They know their problems, but nobody helped them to understand that somewhere in Libya something is happening. And sometimes we, as Malian, we could be concerned. So we are now at the stage of surprise. And they are, you know, empty hands facing people with guns. Now they don't know what to do. But I'm quite sure that the internal front, somebody internal can, will happen. Because by the past, a Sunray, because Tuareg, I used to hear that the other word is the Tuareg Natural Region. Actually, it's the place belong to different, a lot of other, you know, ethnic group. This ethnic group cannot understand how one of them, the minority, can come and to control everything. You know, in the name of democracy or, you know, autonomy. Because we all are, I think that the Tuareg, you know, miss the challenge to all together to fight for what I call the second liberation of Africa. We have to fight for that. Because all of us, we are, you know, paying for macroeconomic choice and decision. And we have nothing to do with these wars and Islamic movement. But if we don't create internally a space to have a debate, a real debate on what is going on in and out of, you know, our borders. My problem with political leaders is that they don't want to help the people to understand. In terms of media, this is why I'm really happy, you know, to intervene in your channel. Because we don't have this, we should have a lot of, you know, alternative media to tell the people where we are now. That all of us, all of the world has people, we are in danger now that we are supposed to be part of a global market, you know. But we know that the winners of this market are just a few of us and that the majority is just starving. But if Tuareg and Fulani and Sunray and Bambara, we all know that actually we have to fight for another economy, another society. This is the challenge. But now we don't, you don't know nothing, you don't hear nothing about this type of alternative. We are just saying that, okay, go and vote. A full election, you will change your life. But we know in Mali has one of the best democracy in West Africa that election is not enough. A election without, you know, a political and social awareness is just, you know, risky. Thanks Aminata. This I think will be very interesting for the people who will see this click.