 Hi everybody, my name is Joel Roberts and I am a former prime-time talk show host on KVC Talk Radio Los Angeles. I needn't tell you that the topic of mental health is everywhere. It's on the cover of Time Magazine. At the US Open Tennis Tournament, which is happening right now, Michael Phelps, the Olympic swimmer, is there talking about mental health. Naomi Osaka, the great tennis player who's won the US Open twice and the Australian Open twice, is there talking about mental health. It's everywhere, which is why I am doubly and triply pleased that we have world-class authorities with us to discuss the topic today. They are from the Workplace Mental Health Institute. I guess technically still headquartered in Australia. Yes, we've got the headquarters officially in Australia. We have a strong presence in Australia and the US. Now, they are Peter Diaz, who is the CEO and he will share his background in the moment, and Emmy Golding, who is in effect the CEO or the director of psychology. So your background, in terms of your academic background, your experiential background, how do you come to the Air Mental Health? Well, I'm the CEO of the Workplace Mental Health Institute now and my life is pretty good at the moment, but it wasn't always like that. There was a time in my life when I went to do a very, very dark space and eventually a couple of years later I got diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Now, it took a few years for me to get rid of that and I had to work very hard, but eventually I did it. And one of the things that I did as part of my recovery was to become a social worker and I became a clinical social worker in mental health as part of that recovery because of my obvious interest in the subject. Okay, not to interrupt, but you have already said something that's extraordinarily controversial, namely that you got over bipolar, which some people might dispute. I don't want to deny that that's controversial. At the same time, I want Emmy to introduce herself. Yes. So we're going to hold the flame that you have tossed out into the universe and hear who Emmy is, please. Hi, I'm a psychologist. I started my career working at the front lines of mental health in community mental health services, hospitals, people working with people with severe mental health issues like schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder, and then recognised that, you know what, our staff in the organisation I was working with also went through challenges and had difficulties and needed support with their wellbeing in general as well. So it's kind of built from there. Yeah. So you both have, I guess I would say, academic and experiential backgrounds when it comes to this topic, would that be fair to say? Yes, absolutely. Okay. A bit of a tough question, but here it is. The fact that mental health is everywhere, that Michael Phelps is talking about it on television, that Naomi Osaka was interviewed at the US Open. That the cover of Time magazine deals with John Fetterman, the junior senator from Pennsylvania who has battled severe depression. Let me ask you what seems like a naive question. Is the fact that it's everywhere a good thing? I'm torn a little on this. Yes. I love that there's more awareness about it. That's fantastic. It's something that traditionally people never spoke about. It was under the rug. The problem that I have is that there's so many myths and misnomers out there about it. And so while there might be awareness, everybody thinks they're an expert in it, but it's a lot more complex than we really understand. So there are a few myths. For example, there were one we were talking about that once you have a mental health problem, you never recover. There is no basis. You watch the scientific basis. Exactly. The first person I've ever met who said that he used to have a mental health problem. But I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. There's tens of thousands like me. In actual fact, when you look at the research and the studies, up to 68% of people that have got a mental health diagnosis, serious enough to have a mental health diagnosis, recover. Really? Yeah. What if somebody were to say to you, I don't want to deny or dispute the validity of the diagnosis, but what if somebody were to say to you the fact that you've recovered means you were never really bipolar in the first place? I would say that there is not a strong argument for that. It's wishful thinking. And it's interesting because sometimes people like to compare a mental health problem to a physical problem. If I said to you, I had a broken bone and now that I haven't anymore, I've recovered, would you question it? Right. So why do we question it with mental health? That's a very interesting question. But you are not denying that a legitimate clinical diagnosis of bipolar exists or of clinical depression or of schizophrenia? Absolutely not. I'm not so much interested in the diagnosis, but in the suffering that goes with that. And there's an intense suffering and people can get lost in that suffering. And this is where we have to be very careful when a person has got a severe mental health problem. They can get lost in the suffering and the extreme result of that can be death, which is suicide. But in between that, there can also be a lot of brain damage from the medications that they take. There can be a loss of income. There can be the loss of a partnership because sometimes living with a person with a mental health problem is impossible for some people. There can be the loss of the impact on the children when their parents have got a mental health issue. Can you imagine how confusing that is for a child? Absolutely, absolutely. So what we do is it's vital for our society because it impacts the community. It helps communities thrive when mental health is approached properly from a strength perspective, from a recovery perspective. Then we see that communities, workplaces, they start thriving, morale improves, resiliency improves. To be clear, though, when you talk about communities and workplaces, you two in the Workplace Mental Health Institute, which I want to make sure I get right, you two don't actually deal with or encourage these companies to deal with severe mental illness, bipolar, schizophrenia, clinical depression. You deal with mental health at another level, although I do want to come back to what you said about suffering. So we're bouncing around a little bit, but just to be clear, you don't go to the extreme. We're very clear on that. Whenever we go into an organization and we're training their staff, it's very clear that this is not counseling. This is not therapy. Although if you need it, we strongly encourage you go and get whatever's going to be helpful for you. But it's very much focused on how do we understand what we're talking about when we say mental health? How do we identify if one of our colleagues around us might be struggling? Because we spend a lot of time at work. Can I put you on the spot? Go for it. What are we talking about when we say mental health? That depends on the eye of the beholder, really. And another thing that we teach is that there are different lenses and filters to this. Some people view mental health from a very medical kind of approach. Others approach it from a spiritual perspective. It's a transformation. It's a spiritual crisis, and then you can transform through that. Others view it as a natural coping mechanism in response to trauma. So we need to really look at mental health from these different diverse perspectives so that we're not judging other people and telling them at work, take your meds and you'll be fine, or it's because of what happened to you or trying to...therapy, as we say, our colleagues or our employees, but instead being more respectful of those different experiences and guiding people to go and get the support from the trained professionals. But you need to know how to do that in a workplace, how to have those conversations. And I want to get into that more, but I'd love to hear how you define mental health. I define mental health as an existential suffering that people go through. It is not uncommon for the human experience to be difficult. Life is hard. Growing up is hard. Maturing is hard. And that causes serious emotional problems, especially when we live in a very complex society, and we do live in a very complex society. And in many senses, our society is artificial. We're going to a workplace and we sit next to colleagues that we didn't choose as colleagues, and we spend eight hours, ten hours with these people. And then sometimes we have a boss that we don't really understand and hasn't got a relationship with us and we don't know whether we like them or not, or they like us. So there's that uncertainty as well. And that can cause a lot of emotional problems. For me, mental health is about the suffering that goes with being human at an extreme level. But we play at the WMI, we play, we work in the space between what is a normal person to up to the point of a severe mental health issue. That's where we recommend to people. Now it's time to give it up to the experts. But in workplaces, we teach people how to avoid a mental health issue, the techniques that you need in order to travel through this difficult life. And then that produces the resiliency that we need. And then if there are any other mental health issues in the workplace, how do we manage them as long as they're not severe? You just said a couple of things that really, really intrigued me. Everything both of you have said. But two words. Well, one word, it's an existential issue. I want to know what you mean by that. And also, if I may throw a little bit of a monkey wrench into this otherwise tranquil exchange. You come from a profoundly religious background, don't you? I do. Is there a connection between what eventually happened with you at a level of mental health and that religious background? And then just to throw a monkey wrench on top of the monkey wrench. Okay, I'm going to try to explain it simply. What is actually very complex. I was going to throw my second wrench first. Oh, there's two. There are two wrenches. Ready? Okay. Because I want to know the connection between your religious background and where you ended up mentally. Right. The second is I kind of want to tease something that needs to come up in the conversation. There's a lot of literature these days about the so-called de-churching of America, the increased secularization of America, the turning away from faith just generally across the board. I as a Jew, frankly, find the term de-churching a little chauvinistic, but okay, we'll let it be. It's like, hello. There are non-Christians out there, but okay. So on the one hand, I'm inviting you to comment on the religious background that you come from and how it played into it. On the other hand, I'm inviting either of you to comment on whether in a religious perspective or in the community affiliation that we get from churches, there is in fact something that would contribute sense of community to people's mental health. Yeah. So my journey is a very personal and individual journey. I was four years old when my parents got visited by a Christian religion and they accepted that religion and I grew up in that religion. So I didn't know any better. But what I found out later, many years later of suffering and turmoil, is that even though I am a person of faith, I do believe in God. And I moved back to this day, but I'm not a religious person. I don't sit well with rules and structures. That's not me. And that was part of my distress, not knowing that this was me. The proverbial trying to fit the square page into the round hole? Absolutely. That was my issue. But I didn't know that. So instead of, because of my strong faith, I couldn't really look into myself and say, hey, maybe you just don't belong in this religion. So what the mind does, it tricks you and it pushes you into anxiety. It pushes you into a severe depression and it helps you collapse. So you start cocooning. That was my experience. That was your experience. You know what? A new understanding of a word has just come to me and I want to check it out with both of you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you kind of had a bipolar existence, didn't you? Yeah, I did. You had the role you were supposed to play, the family. Absolutely. You were supposed to fit into. And over here is the real human being Pedro Diaz, later known as Peter Diaz. Okay. But am I right that there was a sort of a bipolarity to your existence? Absolutely. And this was my issue. I had tipped all the boxes and I was good at it. I was an elder in the congregation. You know, I was good and yet I was not happy because I wasn't living my real life as such. And of course, as part of my journey, I thought, well, this is religion is done. So does that mean I don't believe in God? And for a few years, I was like, you know, well, God doesn't like me because I've let my religion. Obviously, he can't like me, but I still believe in him. I still feel a connection. I still feel his guiding hand. So, to the other stuff that we were talking about, I believe that religion has got a very important role in society. Religion can hold society together. And I think part of the problems that we see now is that religion has taken a third step of importance for people sometimes, you know. It's funny that you say third step because there is the idea of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. And in a way, what you did was integrate... Synthesize, exactly. You integrated. I have a question for you. Oh, go ahead. No, but that's a difficult journey to go through. And there's a lot of turmoil. And when we're talking about mental health, we often talk about these metaphors of people going into the cave or into the forest or into the hole. And they need to kind of figure out how they're going to synthesize that so they can come out and recover. And there are, as we said earlier, so many stories of people who have come through that process. And when they've studied them, because academics like to study everything, there's two themes that come out. The academic and you never... Never die. They find these two themes that keep coming out in people's stories, concepts of spirituality. The other one is sexuality, that none of the professionals ever want to talk because it's kind of taboo and we don't want to go there. We just want to focus on that medical kind of approach. But it's so important for so many people. So it has to be a kind of conversation on the table to be had. Having said that, I just want to make a side note. People can experience the symptoms of mental health distress through physical things that are happening in their body. For example, you can experience the symptoms of schizophrenia. If you get given a medication and then all of a sudden you start hallucinating. That's basically schizophrenia. Or you can experience depression with a number of medications that people receive regularly. Some of them don't respond well to it. But this is not an illness. It's just a response to something. Women and men, we can be hormonal and that can also produce distress. We've got postpartum depression as well and prepartum depression. In effect. But that is completely different to the other aspect that we're talking about. The existential crisis that for some reason we used to talk about it and it was strong before the 80s. And now we don't tend to talk about it. And that's why so many people have got problems believing that you can actually recover because they don't understand that mental health is at core an existential crisis that needs to be resolved. I'm going to throw another contrarian idea. Bring it on. I'm just going to kind of flag this for future reference that I want to bring up an adjunct idea. My contrarian idea is not that we don't talk about it enough. It's that we talk about it too much. That also is true. That also is true. What is the eat that you're referring to? That's my question. Good question. I guess what I'm saying is whereas mental health used to be a stigma. There was a stigma against it. You had your crazy uncle that you hid in the cellar and that nobody even knew existed except they could hear his incoherent screams three houses away. It is migrated from what was a stigma to now almost the status symbol. Absolutely. Okay. And I happen to know very well. I'm not going to name precisely who this is a human being who will turn 16 later this month. And this human being that I'm not going to identify attends a school kind of on the liberal side culturally in which almost everybody there is wearing a badge of honor. This is my affliction. Yeah. And that's a problem because what happens in a western society at the moment we are seeing an infantilization of people that should be mature. So you're supposed to be a grown up by the time you hit your thirties. So we're seeing that a lot of people hitting their thirties. They're still adolescents in an emotional and psychological sense. So how do you excuse your lack of growth. You wear the badge of honor. But I've got this. I've got this. And now I've got an identity because as human beings we all need to have an identity. But what's an easy identity to take on sometimes is the badge of honor. And this is not only a matter of us as individuals. This is how we relate to other people. How they relate to us. In fact, one of the things I wanted to bring up which is going to bring us into the work that you do. You guys work with companies. Is that correct? Absolutely. Okay. You work with companies. I'm going to call companies communities which by the way not all companies feel like communities. Okay. I've been in companies we all have where the sense of community was not necessarily all that deep. Yes. But one of the things that can help but a sense of community can help someone with a sense of loneliness. Yes. And there is a lot of literature of these days about the so-called loneliness epidemic. In fact, when I read this this morning to prepare for this, I really couldn't believe it. But there happened to be in New York Times today. Yes. About the epidemic of loneliness and that Great Britain actually has no joke a minister for loneliness. Did you know this? No, I didn't. I mean leave it to the Brits. But anyway. So they are creating all kinds of programs to get people to interact with each other. And I see this as having come from two major areas. Number one, the de-churching of both societies. Yeah. Number two, the fact that companies, especially during the epidemic when we were socially isolated, could not deliver as if it was ever their mission, which we could dispute, but could not deliver the sense of community. Would you agree Amy? Amy, I apologize that there is an epidemic of loneliness. 100%. I want to add a third piece to that, which is technology. I went into a restaurant yesterday and they sat me down at the table. Great. But I had to order with an app. I had to figure out how it took longer than just someone asking my order. But I had to figure it out, put in my numbers. It asked me if I wanted to tip. I said, well, I've done all the work myself. I don't understand why. Who am I tipping here? We're Australians. And it really struck me that I haven't had that human contact with besides the lady walking it. There you go. You're on your own good luck. That was it. I haven't had that connection. We see it all the time. In other words, would you like to tip your tablet? Basically. That's what it was. But it felt like. But it struck me in that moment. Absolutely. That's where creating all these barriers. At the same time as saying we need a minister for loneliness because this is a problem. We're also kind of heading off in the other direction as well. This. It brings up an interesting issue though, because if we talk about communities and we talk about companies, which are. You know, human beings to get. And you guys work in. The communal mental health culture of a company. Can you describe what a healthy working environment looks like? Yes, very easily. I got your name. And we did. It has seven pillars of a mentally wealthy workplace. They're all in our book, but. What's the name of your book? Mental wealth. Why wealth? Has something to do with money? Well, one of the big things that we've been talking about with organizations is that there is actually a direct correlation between the well-being of your workforce and their productivity, their performance and therefore the wealth of the company. So there's a lot of workplaces that a little bit. But you're not. Forgive me. You're not saying that if a particular individual is financially challenged, a.k.a. poor, that there must be something wrong with their mind. You're not going. Mental health doesn't discriminate. You know, rich or poor, everyone can experience. Mental wealth is about resourcefulness. Yeah. What we're saying is. A mentally wealthy workplace. It's a resourceful space. It's a place where people have the ability to grow, to thrive and basically are happy to come to work. A workplace where people are happy to come to work. It's a healthy workplace. It's a mentally wealthy workplace. Why? Because they've got the resources, they have the support and they have the high challenge. For people to be happy, we need a high challenge and high support. So that's what mental wealth is. The high support needed to support that high challenge. And that's important because a lot of people start talking about mental health in your workplace. Everyone's going to take the day off. Everyone's going to put tools down and it's going to be all this touchy-feely soft stuff, which, yes, we want to support people, but you're actually going to get better results. It's not showing up on your profit and loss statement right now just how much is being lost when people are in distress. It will make you richer, though, at least in one sense, if not a potential downside of all this, which is, I guess, what I would call a culture of victimhood. Look, everybody knows from my accent that unlike these two lovely human beings here, I'm American. America, unfortunately, is too fluent in victimhood. At the moment, it is. But it's not just America. I think the whole western world has gone that way. And it's there is a benefit as a side or level to claim victimhood. You can't be criticised. But that is exactly what a child does. It checks a tante, like we say in Australia, they throw a tantrum. Yeah, check a tante, we call it. So by claiming victimhood, nobody can question you. Well, you can't work. I'm just sick. You don't have to go to work. Or you can stay home. Or you can stay home. I mean, it's not a problem. You can stay in the village or in the village, the village can be a big thing. And this is a problem that we see with places. We try to help them learn better techniques of handling this, rather than sending people home. If when you send people home, that's a big mistake. The moment that they are staying two days So, you don't send them home, they can stay at work, they can do their work, and then they stay with their colleagues until the end of the day, and they come back the next day. You know what I think a lot of this comes from? Colleges. Yes. The cultures of colleges, certainly in the United States, but also around the world, where they have trigger warnings, if you're going to read a book that might contain something that would upset you, or people will think I'm kidding, I'm not kidding. There are colleges in the United States of America, where they have safe spaces, where literally 20-year-olds who are in their sophomore year of college can go in, sit on a cushion, and hug a teddy bear. I don't think I had that in elementary school, okay? So I think that this culture you're talking about, of people invoking sickness too frivolously, too lightly in the corporate space, actually starts before that. I don't know. The education system is meant to prepare you for the world. That's my understanding. That's what I was always taught. And the world is not a safe space, you know? So if we're creating, we're trying to bubble wrap everybody, but then you don't get to experience the world. What happens when there isn't a safe space to go to? We're not prepared. And I think it even starts earlier than colleges. I mean, my son's nine, and he's come home and said, oh, we've learned about mental health, and I think, oh my goodness, what have they said? Because I know his teachers, well-meaning as they are, they're not professionals in the area, so I'm questioning them, you know, what did they say? But we're talking about this so early, without the full understanding, and it's not building the resilience. It's not preparing people to face the challenges that we all are going to face. Yes, we can all experience mental distress from time to time. That's normal. It's okay. But we also need to know how do we get out of that and move on and not stay stuck in that space. And coming back to your teddy bear, if I may, to the teddy bear, why do people need to go into a place that feels safe and have a teddy bear? Because they don't have other, better resources. And they have put ideas into their heads as to what feeling safe means and what the expectation is. And this is what we undo when we go into workplaces. We work with these belief systems and say, let's explore these belief systems that are giving you these shocking results. Because a 20-year-old is not supposed to hack a teddy bear, that's not normal. So when they're coming to the workplace, if they're looking for the teddy bear, they need to relearn, they need to change their belief systems. They need to find better resources, mental wealth, better resources and resourcefulness. Okay, allow me for a quick moment to put a word in your mouth, which I'm too smart to do, but I'm going to do it anyway. The word is resiliency. We love that. If that's what you're trying to create in companies, that is exactly what we're trying to create. And isn't that what you want as a leader of a company? You want a team of people who are resilient, who can handle the challenges because it's going to be challenges. It's going to be pressure. That is life. That is a workplace. So you want your team ready to go. Commando is equipped. So how do you do that? I mean, if you walk into a team where they're schooled in victimhood, where all they have to do is say, that person made some kind of negative comment on my religion or my ethnic group or my race or my gender or my place along this or that spectrum, and therefore I am offended and therefore I am injured and you, the company, are responsible for this. How do you walk into a culture like that and create strengths and resiliency? You start with the basics. We start with exactly those resources that people need personally. We were just on Thursday delivering a workshop to 300 people for the Michigan's number one mental health authority. This is a psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker, and we taught them this skill. Because they too need these skills, you know, they're still human. They also need them. And I think they should already have it. They should have it. But the problem that we're talking about is this idea that you mentioned before of victimhood is so pervasive that has infiltrated most of the mental health industry spaces. People feel that they're fragile first and that they have to be protected. We don't believe that. We believe that we are incredibly powerful. And what we need to do is to tap into our inner resources, our inner power, and then we can be facing the world in a much, much more beneficial way. Go ahead. To answer your question, how do you, with a lot of love and a lot of compassion, that's the starting point. And that's what we spoke about this last week with these leaders. We're going to teach you to be resilient and strong. But you can't go from here to there. That's right. That's right. It's a balance. It's a balance. And so we start from there. We start with wherever they're at. And we work and we guide and we, and then pennies drop, uh-huh, uh-huh. And when they get it, their teams get it. And when their teams get it, their clients get it, and the communities get it, and the family get it, and it spreads. Would you say, Emmy, that this is a real distinction between your company and others in the space of corporate mental health, this emphasis on resiliency, this... I do think so. We're acknowledging that sometimes true victimhood takes places, but that it's invoked too often. Would you say that's a distinguishing feature? Yeah. I do agree with that evidence, but unfortunately, we do sometimes get the call when people have done some mental health training, they've done some well-being activities in the past, and it hasn't gotten them the results that they've wanted. In fact, it can go the other way and it can make things worse, to be honest. So it's really important that in this space, it's done right. And they call us and say, we're hesitant, but we know we still need to address this. Can you come in and help us move forward towards that space? And I remember once, Joel, doing a course, which is a very popular course, I'm not going to mention it here, and I waited for three days. And after the course in mental health, I was depressed for two weeks. They taught me how to be depressed. It was so negative. We don't do that. We teach people how to be joyful, how to be happy, how to be resourceful, how to be resilient. We don't want them to go upset, home, and depressed and more anxiety. But a moment ago, your wife and partner said the world was not a safe place, which I happen to agree with. It is not. And now you're saying people need to wake up joyful and resilient. Yes. Okay. So how do we strike that balance? I mean, prudence, understanding that the world is not a safe place and may not have been designed strictly to make you feel completely comfortable in life at the same time, joy and resilience. Yes. That's an interesting belief. The belief that if society is sad and upset and suffering, I have to be too. That doesn't follow. I can be really, really happy in a very unjust and horrible society. And that can be the change that we need in the world. And this is what we talk about. When we help one person become resilient, that person, it doesn't stay with that person. It goes to their family, it goes to their coworkers, it goes to their community. And that's how you change the world. Do you think all this is exaggerated by the media? I can give you an example. I wasn't planning on going here, but why not? Why not? If you read a lot of literature in, let's say, the New York Times, the Washington Post, even the Wall Street Journal, they will talk about the fact that there are these unbridgeable gaps in the country, pro-Trump, anti-Trump, racial gaps for sure. According to what you read in the paper, blacks and whites just ain't talking to each other at all. They're strictly yelling at one another or avoiding each other. My actual personal experience is that that's simply not true, except now I'm going to utter something which will have me canceled, except I don't worry about being a dancing because I'm not on a pedestal that you can take me off of, I'm just on the ground. But ready? Ready to hear something that you absolutely are forbidden from saying? Yeah. Over the course of my life, here it is. This is the eye ruler of all time. Some of my best friends have been people of color. Okay, in America, you can't say that without, oh, God, he's virtue signaling. He's performative, whatever. So you read the literature in the papers and you think, we're all at each other's throats. Except in my neighborhood, I walk my dog with these arch-Republicans who are pro-Trump, which I happen not to be, or with people of a different race and we're all just fine. What we say to people in this situation is stop reading the papers. No, we're serious. Seriously. Seriously. It's not representative of the world out there. No, it's not. It's not. We're being manipulated, obviously, because it's not really. You're not only drinking the Kool-Aid, you're marinated in it. Yeah. I mean, if you watch and you read every single newspaper and you watch every single news item, you will be depressed. That's the result. Fear cells. All right. Fear is the quintessential element of a mental health problem. Love is the opposite, though, and that's what gets you out. That's when we go into workplaces. We have the compassion. Look, I'm one of the most imperfect human beings in the world. I have done it all. I've done depression, I've done anxiety attacks, I've had suicide ideation. I've had it all. I was, I come from the most negative thinking family inter-generationally. That can be possible. We were so good at negative thinking. So I had to relearn this technique. So I have complete compassion and love for people, even though I don't know them, because I understand how horrible that suffering is and how isolating and loneliness, lonely, it's very lonely. Even if you're not lonely, it can separate you from your friends. It can separate you from your family. So my whole life is dedicated to putting a stop to that, to helping people get out of that hole. How can, why can I help them get out of the hole? It's because I was in it and I climbed myself out of it. So I know the techniques, plus I've got the academic background to also understand it. So that combo, together with Amy and our team. We're very selective with our team. We're not American, but we've got an American team here, which are workplace mental health specialists that are cherry-picked by us to make sure that they have the right approach to mental health. It's about what you focus on. Yes. Potential objections to working with you. Number one, what if somebody says, you are opening Pandora's box, okay? It's not our job to take care of the mental health of every single individual here. Thank you, but no. I would say that, yes, potentially a mental health cause could open Pandora's box in a workplace, but not ours, as to do that, because we come from a strength perspective. We don't come from a victim perspective. So when you come from a strength perspective, what you're doing is making people more resilient, not opening Pandora's box. You were jumping to say something. I was going to say, in a workplace, too late, Pandora's box is already open. It's here. You got to deal with it, and you want it dealt with properly, like Peter said. Are you going to make my employees weak? That's the opposite of what we're trying to do. That's the opposite of what we do. We're building strengths. We're building resilience. Stronger, more powerful employees get better results for you. And by the way, we do it in the cause itself. Right there and then? Right there and then. Right there and then. Because it goes through the psychological tools that we use to make people resilient. Tools, so you're not just talking about awareness? No, no, no. We need more than awareness, so to be aware, what then? What do I do? We're talking about it, we're aware. What do I say? This is what people need. In other words, to quote one of my favorite lines from the movie Taken, you're going to offer them a very particular set of skills. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. What about the cost of doing this? Joel, what people don't understand is what is the cost of not doing this? We know. We do know they've found that for every person with depression, it's costing $10,000. In a workplace of 100 people, you're going to have, statistically speaking, six people with depression. We're up to $60,000. A cost a lot less than that. Abraham Maslow, the psychologist Abraham Maslow, did something not only about not only innovative, but like revolutionary man, as we would say in California, he studied healthy people. Freud, others studied sick people and labeled the sickness. Maslow went, I wouldn't look at people who are doing really well on likes and find out what we need to learn from him. He came up with this, I believe, hierarchy of needs is his phrase. Victor Frankl, who survived Auschwitz and other concentration camps, wrote Man's Search for Meaning. They may disagree on certain things, but I think they would both agree on it's a matter of what you focus on, which is not your indenial, but what do you bring first and foremost to your attention? Agreed? I think they had it right. So do you change a corporation's focus and the focus of the leaders and the staff? That's exactly what we do. We teach them how to make better meanings. We have the tools, the psychological tools that guide people one, two, three, four. And we just did some of these exercises two days ago with these 300 people from the Mental Health Authority. And it was amazing how many people came back and said, I can't believe that just by changing the meaning, I can change the result and I have solutions to my problems. That's the kind of workforce you want, not the workforce that needs a teddy bear. And to conclude, that's what you mean by mental wealth. Wealth being access to resources. Correct? Absolutely. That's what wealth is, access to a lot of resources. We're not talking about huge amounts of money either. We're talking about personal resources and systemic resources. Understood. All right. For bringing your personal resources to this wonderful conversation, I truly have to thank you both. Thank you, Joe. I hope you've enjoyed our exchange. Until next time. Hi, I'm Amy Golding, Director of Psychology for the Workplace Mental Health Institute. We hope you liked the video. If you did, make sure to give it a thumbs up. We have more and more videos being released each week. So when you subscribe, you'll get a notification letting you know when a new one's just been published. So make sure to hit that subscribe button and don't miss out on this vital information for yourself, your colleagues and your loved ones.