 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa and this time around we'll be looking at the state of the nation the 2023 election and of course cause for interim government Founder and Chancellor a fair but by the law University of Ducati Abbot are a fair but by the law has called for the postponement of the 2023 general elections and the Introduction of a six month interim government after President Muhammad Buhari's tenure now the legal limnary said preoccupation of the interim government would be to Produce a new constitution that would tackle into charity economic political and other excruciating ills the devil and the nation now but by the law who spoke at the press conference in a Ducati wonder if the 2023 elections are conducted It will recycle the same crop of leaders who will plunge the nation further into bankruptcy Economic depression and the integrity a meanwhile the governor of email state hope was a dimmer has faltered the call for the interim Government to be put in place at the end of Buhari's tenure saying it will create Anarchy we have public affairs analyst or Lou Fermi Lawson and a legal practitioner James Ibo joining us on this conversation Good morning to you begin with Fermi Lawson. Good morning to you Fermi. Thanks for joining us on the breakfast on this particular discuss Good morning Yes, after Balala has been in the news for the past 24 hours for about two days now. He has said that The country should not Go for elections. I'm next here that if we went for the elections The same crop of leaders would be what we will be getting instead He has called for an interim government for six months Remember, we had an interim government sometime in 1993 in the wake of other You know elections that happened routine M. K. O'Bell and of course M. Tofa when Nigeria was actually in a state That's a most people didn't really like so bringing it back now to 2022 Do you think we've actually gone to that level where we need an interim government? Well as petrotic as the concerns of a chief of a Balala The truth is that the situation in 1993 Where we were under a military junta and now are quite different and for the country To experiment anything in the name of the term national government now They'd be a recipe for anarchy because no matter how Unpalatable the experiences of today are we are still operating the constitutional democracy And there is no way a democratic election election would create an interim government under this constitution What I would have expected from chief of a Balala and every other persons who are generally concerned about the current situation of the country Is to you know peak about how we can within the period That we have and now and the next election Walk towards you know getting you know a better Constitution which is possible and I think a lot of them are not actually taking their time to go through the recommendations Of the 2014 national conference held in this country I've taken my time over and over to read the outcome of that conference And I want to say that it is one of the branch documents that have been produced in this country and a lot of issues that have Being you know that are of concern in the current constitution We're well addressed in the resolutions of the national conference So both because of the failure of the leadership Failure of government to implement these recommendations We keep working around this field constitution and this is what is necessitating the kind of concerns that chief of a Balala is having But I would want to say that rather than suggesting an interim national government Which is going to be legger on constitutional? Why don't we look at using available resources? Available recommendations and of course other patriotic suggestions from patriotic Nigerians to get our constitution Worked on we got a perfect constitution really but we can start from some way Towards the election and by the time the next administration come about we can begin to improve on the lot of our Constitution but calling for an interim national government May not be it and it is not able to eat because it will lead us into anarchy All right family lawson so you know a lot of you know talks have Surrounded this issue of the 2023 election. So the there's a legal limit It's not the first person who has talked about cancellation. You remember when The general of a sea of the redeemed Christian church of God came out to say that God has not Revealed to him about the 2023 election. I will even had you on on using a comment on that But it is right now, you know, don't you think there's a bit of a reason to the effect that To what he said about having the same crop of our leaders there Some people have said they've been recycled to govern the Nigerian space Well, the truth is that the political Reality of the country is that if you bring two three major political parties to the fore today, there is nightly That wherever we emerge as candidates for God knows was president for even senator as a representative member People have traveled the cycle of our political parties. So ideologically There's a difference and even if we have an interim national government The operatives are not going to be brought from heaven There's two going to be people within the same society that is that has come so far Why do we continue to produce the kind of leaders that is afraid of it is because the system Allows even the best of the best to become, you know corrupt becoming effective become Inefficient the moment the commoner the system So even if you bring the best of hands to operate this system in the name of international government or whatever If we don't have an institution that will work and correct and put them into you know working in the line in line of the proper perspective They would turn that was and even the corrupt politicians that we are afraid of recycling in 2023 So I think we should be focused more not on those who are coming to occupy positions But our way as Nigerians can demand for Structuring of the system to the extent that even if you bring the worst of human beings The government of the park position he will operate and they will work efficiently But family loss and there's there's no way restructuring is going to happen Without, you know having the lawmakers the Constitution been looked at That's not going to be the case It's a good thing that you have made reference to the Comfort national Comfort of 2014 and the fact that that has not been implemented as a matter of fact The excuse starts giving us the fact that the interest was not entirely represented You know the argument is you really didn't have You know the sector of persons political parties or party being represented And that's the reason why that has stalled but let's also look at some of the consents that were raised in You know the issue the proposal that was being given by a fair Baba Lola He talked about the Constitution that has made it very lucrative for Politicians and political office holders and he he proposed that maybe we get to a point Or we have a legislative system that's a bad time and also have a non-executive Not really having maybe a president. What are your thoughts? These are is it I'm not I don't want to believe that there was any section of the country including the political parties Including the all-progressive congress which was in the opposition as at the time of the national convoy That were not represented at the conference. That is not totally correct But that's the argument but you but you would agree with me that that's the argument that's been put out No, that's that's not correct. They were all represented in the state of the apc Sent to the representatives it You know to the national it is not correct to say that we're not represented And even the party itself Admit that to the reality of restructuring And that is why it's considered in malam national verify No committee to look at the way, you know workability of the Debate for the attention for restructuring and that committee did a lot of work and even made recommendations To its own party That is in government So restructuring is not alien. It is not an issue that is not raised even the evidence itself, you know campaign nobody After assuming position power, you know consider the committee to discuss restructuring and the structuring is not Something that is so cumbersome and uh, you know, it's unachievable Restructuring is achievable within the context of the works that have been done in the past You see restructuring doubt Did not turn 14 national comfort report doubts more on the issue of our constitution A lot of the issues raised at the comfort were around the constitution So if this were implemented to a reasonable extent, I can tell you that we are almost having a new constitution By the virtue of the recommendations of the of the 2014 national conference. The truth is that No, so so there's no argument. There's no argument surrounding that but you were saying that the people would need to demand You know the need constantly demand that you have a review of the constitution demanding that that be changed And if you have a government No, I if you have leaders I mean if you have leaders if you have leaders that have refused And made several excuses as much as you have mentioned that you don't agree to it But these are some of the excuses that they have given that you didn't really have The interest of everyone being captured. And so how can the people now be demanding for constitutional review or adjustment of the process like you're talking about Without a constitutional review. How can this be? No The leaders Are not there by themselves or for themselves The truth is that if the demands are enough If the pressure is enough On the ruling class the truth is that they want no other choice Than to do the bidding of Nigerian The 2014 national conference was not given You know as a gift by the then administration of dr. Goodwill Jonathan It was as a result of demands by Nigerians the media the civil society The social political organizations are fenifereo and naysay, you know the middle It was a product of persistent demand by Nigerians So if we want a new constitution, no regime will give you a new constitution It is going to be given on the base of demand. And that's why I insist that Nigerians should continue Not that Nigerians are not demanding but Nigerians should continue to demand That we get our constitutional review not in the manner that this crop of national assembly Have been doing it but in line with Such that captures the aspiration of almost every sector of this country as represented During the national conference in 2014 And if they are not satisfied with that who can always raise a constitutional conference That we have representation of the mass cessation the labor movement the civil society media and every other interest group To work towards producing a workable constitution which will be you know ratified by the national assembly Because national assembly will also be involved Because the All right, uh, mr. Lawson uh, are you still there with us? Femme are you still there? The country does not must be able to decide how they want to be governed not How force people wish or how a few number of people in the executive wishes It is going to be on the basis of how the people want to be governed All right, uh, you know in the wake of all of this, uh, this call for interim government You know reactions have actually trialed, you know the development And uh the governor of emo state said them the constant is the country's constitution does not allow for an Interregnum, you know signal liars have actually reacted to that a fenifere also, uh, you know said in as much as uh, you know The the issues raised are genuine the issues of you know security the economic hardship Bankruptcy and all of that that the nation is headed towards It does not really support on the call for you know rescheduled elections But let's look at it from one angle now shouldn't the conversation be uh that of uh, you know Improving the lot of Nigerians improving the state of the economy the state of the nation that way If all these things are conceded would have we have like a continuum then come May 2023, um, there will be another set of uh administration or administrators who will govern You know the machinery of government shouldn't the focus be about them changing the status quo Changing the issues that we have, you know bedeviling the country at the moment No, it cannot be about that because the truth is that there's no way you can transform the economy Better the lot of Nigerians improve security or everything that says that I run today without addressing the roots Very the foundational issue There's a root cause for these problems and no matter how much more you try You know to get the economy work No matter how much more you try to secure the country If you don't have a system that will ensure the successes of all these attempts You keep you know moving around the circle without making any movement forward The truth is that most of the things that are wrong with us today are products of the inefficiency of our constitution Let's all stay security as an example Today if something is happening in your neighborhood Today, I'm very sure you have to rely on your cda Getting the bpu who may have to take order from the commission police in the keija or perhaps cp taking order from The igp in abuja before it can work We're talking about state police. These are constitutional issues. These are, you know We're talking about community policing. These are constitutional issues. The constitutional does not permit Our state to even provide security as it should So we consider having security look at the economy and economy where you know a lot of Issues that affect you and I the grassroot are determined from abuja because they are on the exclusive list There's no magic that can make the economy work An economy where your state is sitting on a lot of mineral resources But it cannot explore it because since it's within the powers of man in abuja It cannot work. So there's no magic that can better the lot of of the genius Except to get the institution Properly working except we get the constitution properly working along the line of the interests of the people So we are just doing trial trial and error because everything that we are doing that looks like it's working They are just magica What we make the agenda work is getting the constitution that would drive our institutions Getting our institutions being efficiently run by the virtue of not Who is there? It's not about bringing a man of integrity or a man of strong will to be president. It will not work What to make it work is the institution that is there to make him work? Which is not really me a family lesson shouldn't we be worried and concerned that you know An elder statesman as a fair babalola has lost You know trust in the electoral and democratic process And he's calling for this because he believed that This particular system or this particular. I mean the electoral process as it is cannot produce leaders that can change you know turn around the Economic situation of the country in his words. He talked about the fact that if this continues if we go on with this election What would happen is that we're going to have transactional leaders and You know recycled leaders who cannot do anything to change the the lots of the country shouldn't should we not be worried Also, recently, uh, you have a very reverend revered man of god Who talked about the fact that He's not head from god whether there's going to be an election or not So should we not be concerned with the fact that there's a trust deficit We should be worried and i'm as a person worried And a lot of the leaders are also worried and if you follow the trend The concerns raised by chifaba Have been raised by you know, a lot of Nigerians the leaders of our nasi and fairy fairing Middle berth even are aware all sort of groups have been raising concerns About the direction that the country is going especially as we move towards the election But we must be conscious of the fact that we are operating a constitutional democracy And we must avoid anything that will create room for anarchy I think the lesson we must take from the concern of chifaba babalala and every other patriotic Nigerians that are worried about the current state of the country Is that what can we make out of this? How can we use the little time we have to correct some even if not all Of this anomalies that are driving the country towards an edge That is all i think we should take out of the concerns of chifaba babala Not by yielding to the advice that we should go for an international government It may be A Was catastrophe But i think we must take lessons from their concerns especially from people like chifaba babalala Who have spent all their life working for the progress of this country who have done so much for humanity in this country We should be concerned about their concerns But it is not enough for us to conceive that we should go for an international government I think chifaba babala and every other patriot should have their voice You know to the fact that we need to get a Constitution that will work within the context of what we may not be able to convoke another national conference Between the next election we may not be able to convoke a constitutional conference between the election But we have enough time between our election to work and Implement some of the recommendations Of the 2014 national conference which dealt more about restructuring this country If we restructure Nigeria I can bet you that nobody would even wake up who asked for an international government because Would the constitutional state will be working and nobody will really be No, it would be so much concern All right, so if I got you right now, so if we were to review our constitution and bring about all of these Issues that have been talked about, you know restructuring and all of that would eat Um amount for better elections next year would it also amount to you know Getting of all those recycled leaders who have not actually, you know brought much benefits to the nation's economy Definitely, let me give you an instance So the local government elections are conducted by states in Nigeria And you really realize that the just turn out leaders who are on peak People were not really voted for by the people part of the recommendations Of the 2014 national conference was to take away the power of To conduct the local government election away from the state You know and a lot of issues that's unnervely Recommendations will address issues of state police is there issue of, you know The control of mineral resources that will empower the state that will not make this pressure on Abudia to be this much And a lot of issues that will address You know, some of those things that will be used as campaign manifestos by these politicians in the next few months If the administration could pick Some critical aspect of the recommendations or implementation ahead of the election It will reduce the pressure. It will also guarantee that Nigerians become so conscious enough that they don't elect, you know any out leaders who will come and You know make not make life better for them So it is very key that we talk about getting the country to work Rather than getting no Not leader would drop from heaven If we continue to produce leaders even the type that chief of the things should be in charge They will not operate successfully under this constitution But if you look at it, I mean the the I mean some of the argument is put out or the Proposal that's put out is not necessary about uh, the leaders. He's talked about the component of our system I mean some part of our system for instance, you talk about the Kind of legislative system that we run that is very flamboyant and he's saying that let's run the system Where we have a part-time legislators and you don't have to have them over full scale That's so we're able to manage our resources where these legislators would not have to end salary, but they can actually earn allowance It's it's it's it's not a bad idea You see all these are just issues around the fact that we claim to be practicing federalism But not through federalism. We claim to be practicing a system Where It is not operated in line with the details of the system itself If we operate through federalism If you operate a system where you know politicians in Abu Dhabi do not see themselves as alpha and omega You know politics would even become less to preach it to the extent that you will not even be so much interested in going there Talk less of getting such bogus allowances It is because we have made this so lucrative because of this The constitution that we operate that gives so much power and resources to a very few that everybody wants to be there to You know keep taking this money if we restructure along the path, you know of regional Authorities or state authorities Where legal state can determine What allowances is playing playing this legislator and for example, I can also determine its own where there will be no revenue allocation formula that mandates states, you know a local government to pay specific amounts You know for certain persons if Constituent unit can determine what they pay what they can afford People who are coming to work as legislators or as governors I can tell you that a lot of people will not even be interested in being part of the You know jamboree at the looping spree, but I can only be enshrined in the country So we all stay buzzed out on the restructuring the system And it is not just about the crop of national assembly member or legislators or executive It's about the entire system if you go to the civil service There are people who earn more money who take more money even than the politicians that we are afraid of What do we do to that after restructuring or after after constitution and the entire national government Do we stop the civil service also Where a lot of monies have been stolen under so many guises So we must be interested in addressing the root cause Not just these the symptoms He sounded for Second that you were talking about the civil servants ending this money more like it's what their Salary and allowances or allowance would be but you have talked about the issue of corruption Which makes a lot of sense So moving forward, what would you say should be the way forward? I know we have talked about it in all of this for you the response has been providing Solution but generally how do we even approach this for me? The big question here is you say we constantly have to demand before how long can we continue to demand that we have A constitution that reflect the interest of the people Freedom comes so cheap if you look at the issue of most independent nations They were not What was gotten on the platter of one or two agitations? It took a lot of countries centuries It took some decades before they could get to where they are today Our democracy is just about 20 something years this republic and I think I don't think we have gone too far You know or endured too much that we cannot continue to demand for a better society I think enough has not been done as far as our demands to get Nigeria What is concerned we must continue to do more just like you have been doing in the media Just like the citizens have been doing the politicians will not May not be keen interested in some of these things we are saying because they're the biggest beneficiaries But we have a larger community of Nigerians in the civil society the media in the shesha culture and shesha political organizations who can continue to mount pressure and Governize support locally and internationally to get This system work and we should not be tired of doing that. I don't think we have done enough So if you say how long I don't think There's any time limits that we should be interested in doing We must continue to do this and I'm very sure that as we continue to do this We were earlier, you know, where so many policies of government became, you know Organized we adjusted because of the persistent demand from Nigerians Who says that by the virtue of our pressure continuous demand And I'm sure we will not wake up and say let us listen to Nigerians. Let us amend this constitution So we should not keep quiet because the moment we keep quiet the battery is lost All right, thank you so much I'm firmly lost in public affairs analyst for the thoughts that you have shared on this particular issue It's my pleasure All right, moving away from that one still to come when we return from this quick break the baby bonus Vessels at You know silent generation. We're looking at our parent in them. How should it be done? In a moment, stay with us