 Lakeland Currents, your public affairs program for North Central Minnesota. Produced by Lakeland PBS with host Ray Gildow. Production funding for Lakeland Currents is made possible by Bemidji Regional Airport, serving the region with daily flights to Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport. For information available at BemidjiAirport.org. Closed captioning for Lakeland Currents is sponsored by Niswa Tax Service, tax preparation for businesses and individuals. Online at NiswaTax.com. Hello again everyone and welcome to Lakeland Currents, where this evening we have the unique opportunity to visit with a person who works around the world, who will be interested to see how many countries she's actually visited and worked in. But it's a company called Catalyst, it's a non-profit organization that helps organizations provide better workplaces for women. And it's a very timely topic I think because it's something that we're talking about across the United States. In fact Catalyst got its original beginning. It is an American company with a European arm so to speak. So my guest this evening is Allison Zimmerman, who is the Executive Director of the Europe Model of Catalyst. They're models, probably not the right word but of the organization. Welcome to Minnesota. I know you are a native Minnesotan. Yes I am. And so we could let people know that. But I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to come in to the area and do the show and then you're not here long and you're back on the plane bed heading back to your home, which is Zurich, Switzerland. Exactly. And what is the temperature running in this time of the year in Zurich? It's not as cold as it is definitely here. It's much warmer. It's probably 20 degrees warmer. Wow. But thank you for having me. Tell us a little bit about first of all what Catalyst is and as I mentioned in the opening it's been around since 1962 so it's been here a long time. But I know you work with really large corporations. I think I read on your website companies totaling over a trillion and a half dollars in revenue, which is an incredible amount of money. Absolutely. So Catalyst is a research and advisory organization and our focus is largely on gender equality. But we've been around since 1962. It was a woman in the U.S. who opened it and she really wanted to bring to the country the needs of having more women in the workforce. And so we're largely known for the research around what are the myths about women in the workplace, why aren't women advancing, but we're also focused on the solutions. It's not enough to know that there's a challenge. We all know that. But how do you shift and create impact, especially in a corporation, but also in a government? And you do work with governments. We do. We do. We've been asked by various governments. They ask us to come in as a thought leader because of the sound research we do. But they also want advice. So we have isolated incidences. I remember I oversee our European arm and we were brought into France for a discussion. So we're often tapped into for the knowledge. But more importantly as well, even with the European Commission, we've given advice on what to do going forward for the next five years. And so this is something that, well, I would say our wheelhouse is largely corporations. It trickles into other arenas as well. I know just as an aside, this is not the most seen TV show you've been on because you said you were on the BBC with, how many viewers worldwide on that? It was 300 million. 300 million viewers. That's a little bit bigger than we are. Well, who knows? Who knows? Let's send this out. So to make a distinction, you don't focus so much, you don't focus on harassment issues as much as barriers to providing opportunities for women to grow. So roughly how many countries do you think you've personally worked in? So Europe, it's not the United States of Europe. So we have ranging 24 to 27 countries. I personally have worked with catalysts across Europe from Slovenia to Sweden. So that means it doesn't mean that the bulk that I'm always in every country, but I've lived in four countries across Europe, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Scotland. But I also now live in Switzerland again. So we cover a lot. You're dealing with really significantly different cultures, not only the governmental culture structure, but companies. And you said a lot of the big companies you work with are family-owned businesses. Oh, actually, no, that was Slovenia when we were talking previously. Some of the countries like in Eastern Europe are more family-owned. The corporations that we work with are large, large multinational corporations. So if you think of the big names like Procter and Gamble in Europe, UBS, Barclays, you think of these big companies. Those are the ones we work primarily with, the large cap. But the impact, the reason why we do is because they're all struggling. While the countries definitely add in a context that is different, what's fascinating is they're all struggling with the same issues. It's globally and we're a global nonprofit. And so whether we're in Japan all the way to the U.S., there's vast differences in those countries, obviously, India and Canada. But the reality is those issues can really come down to key themes that we see, particularly around advancing women. And so when I look at, I'll give an example, unconscious bias. One of the reasons, one of the barriers of why women aren't advancing is they're always running against this unconscious bias. The biggest bias is think leader, think male. And that is universal. We see that. All you have to do is look at the numbers globally. In the United States alone, 95 percent of the Fortune 500 company CEOs are men. And how long have we been doing this work, looking at gender equality? So there's this perception that because we're talking about it or because it's been there for a long time or because you go into a workplace and you see women everywhere that you think, it's not so bad. And our point of view is, yes, advances have happened since the 1960s, absolutely. And we want to celebrate that. But the fact that of the top corporations, you have a leadership of the CEO, you only have 5 percent women in one of the most advanced countries in the world, that should be shocking to many people. I think one of the perceptions that people have when I've worked in the world of the corporations is that when women do get to the top, they're ruthless. You don't ever hear that much about when men get to the top. But I mean, there's that perception that if a woman has had the skills to get to the top, and there are some large corporations now with women in leadership roles, that's got to be a real barrier too, doesn't it? It's absolutely because, okay, what you have at the top is what you'll continue to get. So if you have a dominant style that is ruthless, and you have a dominant style that's being rewarded and being expected, that's what you're going to continue to get. So you have to change the top to change what you're demanding the talent looks like. And it goes back, and when I said think leader, think male, it could be think leader, think assertive or ruthless or this, something very maybe dominant behavior. The problem with that is when you look at gender, even if women, let me say it differently, assertiveness, let's say that's valued. Assertiveness can be admired in men, but hated in women. And we see that all you do is turn on the news, turn on any show, you will see that double standard. So what we did is we did research called double buying damned if you do, doomed if you don't. And what we found, and it's still relevant today, is that when women behave in ways that are stereotypically considered feminine, they're often seen as being too soft to be a leader. If they behave in ways that are not stereotypically feminine, that might be rougher or tougher, they actually are seen as being too masculine, too tough, or ruthless. And this double bind is kind of like you can't be too soft or too tough, you have to kind of find this middle ground in order to be respected. So the way I often describe it is women often have to walk a tightrope and how they are being perceived, whether either being respected or being liked. Men by and large have a larger margin of error with how they can behave. So that assertiveness is on the spectrum much broader in terms of how it's being received by those perceiving it. It's interesting isn't it that in Great Britain and Germany, Theresa May and Mericle are women leaders in countries that you would think that culture would be resistant to electing women leaders, but they've overcome that obstacle haven't they? Yeah and well you know there's still challenges right now obviously. I wouldn't say they've overcome, I mean did you did you see? Well it could be elected I meant. Yeah absolutely. So they definitely when you see that the fact I mean many countries have had women at the most senior levels being elected. South American countries have. Yeah South American. It would be nice when it's no longer something we have to highlight in in in disgust you know that it's just normal. We our point of view is let's get beyond the first, the first you know female chancellor, the first prime minister, but also let's look at how are we judging the women. We are holding them often to these higher standards than men in the workplace, but we can see it in government. We can see it in other ways. One of our research we've been tracking 10,000 MBA graduates to see men and women alike to test out some myths why women aren't events and why they why they are and what what they're doing to do that and whatnot and what we found is that one of the studies we looked at on the myth of the ideal worker is that women must prove performance. They are promoted based on that proven performance whereas men are promoted based on potential. So how we evaluate talent is is really rooted deep down into you know does she have what does she have enough experience less likely to take a risk on a man who they might perceive has that experience or they look for the potential. So there are a lot of there are various barriers but this is one of the biases that run into the most. So when you work with a large company and if the large company asks your organization to come in you do you get to work with the boards because I would guess that it's the boards that really are the decision maker to get that person to that next level. Are those boards usually receptive to what you have to say? That's a good question they are and what's interesting by the time we are coming in to that board they're usually the board is much more open to this than the layer below or the layers below. The reason being there are many reasons for that I guess one of the things that we have noticed is when you know oftentimes what engages well let me say it differently the boards are largely made up of men that's a given that's not a stereotype we see it across the board that you know they're largely usually one or two women are on the boards globally but what we know is what engages what blocks men from engaging now I'm talking about the middle level it's not the board is this fear this fear of if I help her advance or if I if I you know support gender equality somehow I'm going to lose out it's almost like they see it as a pie and when and it's not a pie because it's kind of like if I take one piece out and a woman gets that piece what will happen to me well who said that was your piece of pie to begin with but what the challenge is if you want to think about it a pie companies have to think about the pie ever expanding that the more women and the more diverse women not only women but white women women of color that we have it is directly tied to better performance of a corporation so the boards coming back to your question the boards get that they usually get that much earlier than before we come in the challenges and this happened I won't say what country in Europe but I was invited to sit with the CEO and the board and to sit there and do kind of a session on unconscious bias to find out what is going on and they had some real aha's and it was a really powerful session at how open they were with why they were cautious about the topic but they were much more open to it than the level below so I also had a session with the levels below um largely male and that's where the resistance is isn't it I thought it was going to be tarnished and thrown out of the room I mean it was but once they understood that this is not about giving anybody a hand up this is just about looking beyond the usual suspects of who you deem as being the best talent so one example I would use with that group of leaders is I would say okay you know let's say you're in the group Ray Ray we have a group of a hundred people here in the room you and I are going to create a super all-star team you get to choose from the whole room your all-star team and I get to choose from half the room who's going to have the best team you are because you are looking broader and wider that is all that is not all but that is what we're asking companies to do is look beyond the usual suspects stop picking people like you it's unconscious it doesn't mean even if you're really intentional and very supportive of this you need to have other mechanisms mechanisms in place to ensure that your unconscious bias isn't coming in and filtering through your decision making the heart of it is you cannot possibly believe that you have the best talent and ultimately are super innovative if they all look and think like you because to serve the market you need to look you need you need that diversity you cannot it and so the board they get that they know the way the status quo is right now it is not sustainable for their business so if a company a large company asks your organization to come in and you show the research and you show the barriers that people have what's the next step that most of these companies do do they still work with you or do they connect to someone else that does training for this or what's the next stage well the stage is a solutions so while we while we are known for our research and our content and knowledge we also have the solutions that we've learned from working with over you know 800 large corporations and and really seen not only what worked but what sometimes you learn a lot more from what hasn't worked there is not a one-size-fits-all oftentimes so going to your question the solution would be looking at where is your biggest pain point where's your biggest challenge um awareness is only a small part of it in this day and age it's really got to be yes we're going to be aware there's a challenge and that's the foundation but how do you create change you create change in a number of ways absolutely one example I shared already work with leaders apps you need leaders to understand that this is in their best interest in the company's best interest that progress for women is progress for everyone on the other hand it may be that there's that pocket of resistance that you really need to work with and one thing that we've been doing that across globally that was really I I don't sound humble but I would say it's very cutting edge because it's not not a lot are doing this at the moment but we do engaging men workshops where we work with men directly that middle layer that resistance in Europe they call it the marks upon layer which I think can be derogatory because it makes it sound negative but it's that it's that layer that really you need to engage and so for years of you know companies looking at this topic they were unconsciously looking at women okay women we need to fix the women women need to become more confident more assertive you need to do this it's the wrong way to go about it you need to focus on the system fix the workplace so that not only women can benefit but men too so when we do engaging men workshops it's called mark m a r c it stands for men advocating for real change and we have had big CEOs go through it such as Michael Dell from Dell went through it Dell has done a lot Procter & Gamble has done a lot on it as have other companies but what they do is they go through this really experiential workshop no PowerPoint maybe there's a PowerPoint but not much on it really for them to experience what it means first to feel like the other to feel like the oddball because many men don't feel like they belong to that dominant group but the next layer is seeing the unconscious bias that's happening how the workplaces are being experienced by women versus men and and then finally really um this is the kicker for many is understanding that they have a privilege and the most men you ask them if I ask you Ray what's your privilege you might be able to list maybe I mean you're more self-aware maybe you 10 but most people can list maybe three privileges that they might have or five most men when they go through this workshop they really experience their privilege and that for the leaders is the biggest shock and it and they'll go home to their families and their partners or their children and they have conversations like do you really need to think do you think about this you know do you worry about your safety where you park do you you know things you never think about they never maybe think about it kind of opens a door and then it's a bit shocking in a positive way but it it I guess the heart of the most effective kind of workshop with a mark is that you have awareness and a lot of companies want to go awareness to action but if you don't get that acceptance piece the heart of what it's really about you're not going to make change so it's really getting at the heart of it obviously there are some significant differences between working with the leadership in companies corporations and governments I'm kind of I'm interested to know what kind of governments have approached your organization I know some governments that should but I know so we can't I can't share any any company names and I can't share other than the ones that have gone public I shared Dell and Procter and Gamble only because they've talked publicly in certain ways about mark but there was I can say that there was a European government agency that's the most I can say it is different because we I remember that you know you have to have thick skin sometimes with this topic because when you tap into fairness people feel oh it's unfair no it's not about it is really it is about fairness but it's really much more than that and what happened with the government I remember going in I we we didn't talk about gender we talked about inclusive leadership how to get the most out of a diverse group long story short there were a row of hecklers in the back of the room hecklers never had hecklers in my life before I do a lot of speaking in a row of hecklers and they were very angry at you I never talked about women I talked about inclusive leadership they were angry about the topic and I remember during a break going what's going on and I found out governments are different they usually have quotas they usually have that so for them it was all about the quota and we don't take the position that the quota like you need to have another number of women and you need to have another so it was in their eyes very much a token way of thinking and then I understood it the heart of the pushback there is men don't want to be left out and the opposite women pushback too women don't want to be singled out women won't don't want to be seen as a token who does nobody does but rarely do we ask ourselves when that man got that job or that new CEO that he was a token we often assume it's a woman so the government the the often it becomes political and it often becomes it's so tied to is it this is it about politics or is it about this no this is really about good business and this is about creating a better workplace so that women can succeed but men can succeed and businesses can succeed so one of your big challenges is to go into these organizations in a non-threatening way yes to get this information to people isn't it yeah see that's well what is well what inspires people is not feeling shamed and blamed you've got to come in into it and and the work especially with engaging the dominant group men are part of the solution they we can't make them be the problem right that's not that's not the solution but they have they're making up the upper echelons so they have a lot of power to create change we are almost out of time okay but if you could tell us how would someone get information I know you have a website and I think you also have information on the things you do on that website in video format yeah many we have online trainings for free you don't have to be a member of catalyst the website is www.catalyst.org and and catalysts are just google catalyst and so you'll find our website and you are international but it is a headquarter technically in america in america in new york city yeah and your executive your director is a woman yeah executive our ceo is a woman and um and we have um we have boards made of ceos our b o d is a board of ceos of the biggest corporations so if you look if you go to catalyst you will see a list of all the ceos that are on the board very interesting topic very timely thank you thank you for taking the time to jump on board with us really appreciate it great thank you for having me thank you you've been watching lakeland currents where we're talking about what you're talking about i'm ray gildow so long until next time