 Hello, my name's Jean Milligan. I'm the Director of Communications at the International Organization of Employers. We're here today with two colleagues who are going to be explaining to us a little bit on the public narrative on migration, how it's affecting their work, and also what is their assessment of the current state of the public narrative. So I'm going to begin, Ian, could you introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about your organization? Yes, thank you. So I'm Ian Robinson. I'm a partner with Fragment, Global Immigration Law firm, and I'm based in strictly speaking, I suppose my area of expertise would be the UK, but it's really hard to do a job in immigration if you only concentrate on country, people moving all around the world. So I would spend an awful lot of my time advising on the UK and then helping people get the workers they need into Europe, into the Americas, into Asia PAC, and so on. As an immigration law firm, we were founded back in 1951, and our expertise is in moving workers around the world. And where we found a nice synergy with, and I'll ask Marina to introduce herself next, with Talent Beyond Boundaries is that this is all about moving skilled people from one place to the other. It just so happens that in this instance, it's about moving people who have been forcibly displaced, but are nevertheless very, very talented. Yes, Marina, let's hear from you. If you could introduce yourself, please. Thank you. So my name is Marina Brasauer. I'm the UK director of Talent Beyond Boundaries. So Talent Beyond Boundaries is an organization that lifts people out of displacement on the basis of their skills. So what our work is is really to make a talent pool of highly skilled individuals visible and accessible to international employers, looking at ways in which we can level the playing field for them to activate and participate in the local international labour market, and then get skilled visas to lift themselves out of displacement. So my personal background is as a refugee. So I was born in Sarajevo in Bosnia and relocated to Australia with my family. And within six months of arriving to Australia, my dad got a job as a telecommunications engineer in Vodafone. And as a very young child, I remember him saying, if only I got a job, we wouldn't have lived through a siege and through refugee camps. So the passion for this work really comes from my personal story. But the impact of this work really comes from the fact that we can make partnerships like we have with fragment, but the broader migration and mobility community to start changing the rhetoric, which I know we're going to talk about in some detail. Yeah. So for you, it's personal. That's nice. And I want to begin with you. And I want to begin by looking back. I know my understanding is fragment, as you mentioned, has been dealing with legal migration pathways since 1951. Not that you were there at the beginning, but I'm actually interested to know because I thought one of the interesting points is let's look back at public narrative issues before we start looking at today. And I would do your assessment of how my like your assessment of this public narrative issue over the last 20, I know it's briefly, but 20 years ago, where was the public narrative? How has it moved? Is it moved in a negative manner or positive manner? And so your insight into that history. So I would say it's moving forward and it's moving forward positively. We are moving towards a place where people have a better understanding of the reason that people migrate, the benefits that they bring with them, whether they are economic or social or cultural. And we are going in the right direction. We haven't quite arrived at the place where I hope we end up, where migration is widely accepted as a good thing around the world, but we're heading in that direction. In terms of what's driven us in that direction, I think it comes down to a large extent by transparency and objectivity and also a changing view of why people move and the benefits that they bring. I know if I, so I'm from the UK, I'm from just outside Liverpool. 20 years ago, 30 years ago, migration would have been associated with labour shortages and the movement of labour. It's increasingly associated with the movement of skills these days, especially since Brexit in the UK. But we see this elsewhere in the world as well. It's the reason why we are seeing some very, very helpful directives around Europe for the movement of intra-company transferes or the movement of post-graduates and graduates, more generally. It's the reason why immigration is being modernised in Asia-Pac and in the Middle East with the use of technology that we aren't frankly seeing just yet elsewhere in the world. Immigration is becoming more transactional and the transaction is you will be able to come to any given country in return. We would want you to bring your skills with you. Now that's based on transparency and objectivity. The way that governments talk about their policies, the way that they take their decisions is an important part of that. I was always, I worked in the UK government for eight or nine years before I joined Fragman. We were quite good with data. We'd created an independent group of advisers to advise objectively on where policies should go. But I was always struck by how impressive the Australians in particular in the Canadians were in collecting and presenting this data, whether it was to do with skill shortages in Australia or population shortages in Canada and filtering people through. Of course, it's not quite as simple of that as that the media will always play a part. I remember my first job in the home office, I was a manager in the immigration complaints unit, very, very busy job. I learnt an awful lot. But a big learning was one morning on the way to work and a asylum seeker who I remember was called Abbas was on the front of the newspaper. He'd sewed his mouth, his eyes, his ears up and he didn't want to unsew them until he was told he could stay in the country. And I thought this is going to keep us busy. I had utter sympathy, but I thought this will keep us busy today. Actually, we had two complaints about Abbas and his treatment that day. On the same day we had, I think it was 75 complaints because the US football Bobby Convoy was refused a work permit to play for Tottenham Hotspur. And that set into focus for me just how much work needed to be done to help the public understand the importance of migration, but also the importance of treating people with the humanity and respect that we all deserve, really. We will continue, I hope, to go in the right directions, politics fluctuates, of course, but it will rely on transparency and increasingly on fair reporting of migration and the phenomenons that lead to migration, whether it's school shortages or as Marina can talk to the humane human side of things. And I mean, it's interesting that you're giving us a perspective that we haven't heard really a lot, that you're positive. A lot of people are looking at the different political headwinds that have taken place over the last, let's say, decade. And the feeling is that no, the narrative is actually, and particularly in the media, certain media outlets, the narrative can be quite negative and actually outright hostile. So how do you see that you have this positive assessment? How are you kind of matching that with what is basically what you're seeing in a media that can often be quite turbulent and quite aggressive? Yeah, and I completely see that hostility. It seems to occupy an awful lot of my Twitter feed, to be honest, with people outraged by the hostility. I tend to think that the media hostility has been there for some time. It's always been there and it will probably continue. These things are cyclical, and we swing from one direction to the other. But it seems to me that we are nevertheless swinging forwards. So this is the analogy I'm about to use may seem quite strange in the circumstance. But I think of the Black Lives Matter symbolism of taking the knee in football, leading to football fans booing England players at the moment. Something that I've taken from that was a comment from the England manager that he said, you may think you're in the right, but you're on the wrong side of history, and history is moving us forward, I think towards a more positive place. We aren't quite there yet. We know about the cynicism or concern about migration, certainly in the Trump years in the US. We know that Brexit probably wouldn't have happened if not for what were considered to be excessive numbers of Europeans coming to the UK between 2004 and 2016. But we also know that in the UK now, the attitude towards migration is broadly positive. We know that COVID aside in Europe, people recognise the importance of the Schengen area and the ability to travel frictionless between countries. They see the benefits of such things as intra-EU travel through the ICT directed. That can't go un-tempered. It's important that, for instance, in Europe, we have the post of worker directive which prevents economic dumping and undercutting. Immigration systems all around the world need to have controls to prevent, to make sure that there is at least a level playing field in favour of domestic workers, and they are getting the opportunities that they deserve. Otherwise, we will definitely swing in the wrong direction. But it seems to me that there will be bumps along the way, but with the easier access to information, we are heading in the right direction, particularly with young people. There's a rift there, of course, because I see this sort of information that's also out there. But I think there are reasons to be optimistic. And Marina, I want to bring you into this conversation. I want to know how the public narrative is impacting your work in terms of are you seeing a public narrative that's becoming more positive, a lot like Ian? Are you seeing a narrative that's still quite negative and holding back from bringing out meaningful change? So just your assessment of the public narrative frame and its impact on your work. Absolutely. So I think the public narrative has been pretty stagnant when it comes to refugees and displaced people for the past, say, decade. As Ian said, there are phases where it is not the hot topic in the news, but then an incident will happen like there will be attention on crossings by boat, by air, whatever the case may be, that heightens that negative rhetoric. And then it sort of swings back into like an unknown issue when it comes to refugees and displaced people specifically. So that's the mass media. And what I will say in terms of the mass media, we do some fantastic work that is really changing lives, changing perceptions on the ground on a human level. But when we talk about that being put into the media, there is so much hesitation because there is a minority that will change that rhetoric and flip it from a good news story and a human story to a story that has to do with labels and where you come from and taglines of being burdens, taking jobs, etc., based on what a person's background is. And so I think that there is a huge disconnect between media being representative and sensational and sensible policies, whether they are with labour markets, whether they are with policymakers around what a country needs to exist. And the fact is they need migrants and many employers don't care where migrants come from if they can feel a skill shortage and they fit within the culture and they can add a diversity to their workforce. So in terms of TBB's work, initially very quickly you get a sense of how the word refugee or displaced person or stateless person is perceived. It's either a loaded word in terms of, oh, this is fantastic, we can make a change by just giving someone a job, we lift them out of displacement, this is such a natural thing to do. Whereas there are other people who are like, well, they're refugees, are they educated? Do they have work experience? How are they going to get their documents? What visa do we use? And so we are constantly straddling that. And I think that with the introduction of pilots and programs that have to do with displaced talent mobility that are currently taking shape in Australia and Canada and will come to the UK and hopefully into the European Union and the US soon, we can start to change that rhetoric because you can actually point to evidence that says you can be both displaced by circumstance, but you can be skilled as an individual. And I think that the rhetoric on a human level, when you speak to a person, when you speak to a hiring manager, a CEO, an industry group, it is positive. It is how do we make a change? The rhetoric on a mass level is a little bit more dangerous. It is a little bit more hostile, as you say. And frankly, for the most part, it's not representative and it's not correct of the majority of people who move through skilled pathways, whether they be from a displaced background or not. So if we look at the UK, for example, excuse me, there is a shortage of 50,000 nurses and there is a mandate to fill that skill shortage by 2024. That cannot happen without migration. At least 35% of that skill shortage needs to be filled by migrants. And so when you consider the fact that when you are in a hospital and you need catheterization by a nurse, where they've come from, matters not. It is the human life that matters. And I think that once we start dispelling those myths and start, as Ian says, being more transparent about the values of migration, not only to feeling skill shortages, but community and diversity and inclusiveness and humanity and dignity, I think that we are heading in a much more positive direction. And just to follow up on that, I think one of the things you've pointed out is almost the disconnect between the business community and their needs and whether it's a public institution or a private business, but the business, let's say a business in all its sense, their need for skilled laborer for labor and then there's this negative public media discourse. So what do you think the business community, I'm going to ask both of you this question, what do you think the business community can do to contribute to changing or to at least changing the media narrative of migration? So Marina, we'll start with you. Great. So just consider people that you may not have considered previously. So at Talent Beyond Boundaries, we have a software and a database that is unique to and bespoke to this notion of displaced talent mobility. At the moment, there are over 29,000 people registered to that talent catalog, and they represent 152 occupations from butchers and welders to management consultants, nurses, doctors, and everything in between. So you can imagine that through displacement of conflict in the Middle East, particularly if we talk about Syrians, Palestinians, Iraqis, an entire society has just been lifted and displaced, but their skills are still their skills. And so what employers can do is to be open to hearing from those people and giving them a shot and changing their recruitment policies to be a little bit more flexible and inclusive in the first instance, but ultimately, if they give that person a job and they arrive to a country as a skilled migrant, the rhetoric, they already move from the negative burden of being labeled a refugee, a person seeking asylum or whatever to a skilled migrant. But then there is the challenge of skilled migrants versus local migrants. If you are in an occupation, that means that you are public facing and you are just part of the community. That is how change is made. So really, the job of businesses is to give people a shot and to not say, this is how we've always done it, to think about how it should be done. It's not only we have a CEO of a company that we partner with, a company called Iris, and he says this is not only the right thing to do, it's the smart thing to do. So it's just about opportunity, equality, and levelling the playing field. And Ian, if your sort of reflections on what is the business community doing, and how can it help change this narrative, this media narrative that we've been looking at, this negative narrative that some people would say is very predominant. Yeah, and I think part of it is, so later on today, I expect I'll be speaking to a national journalist in the UK about Brexit. And the issue is almost incidental, because I know on that call I'll be asked, can you find an employer to speak to me, an employer who's willing to talk about this particular issue? And I will have to politely explain why, yet again, I'm unable to. And I get that. I would be very, very nervous about recommending to any of my clients that they speak in the media about immigration. They're worried about how their brand will be seen, they're worried about how the story will play out. There have been instances, when I was in government, I remember instances where employers would complain about our immigration policy. We did not hold back when it came to responding to those, responding to those organisations through the financial times or wherever it may be. But actually, we do see examples of business leaders who are able and willing to put their neck out and say, actually, immigration matters, immigration is important. I think it was Tim Cook, who said he would be happy to build chips in the US. But first, the US authorities need to make the engineers available, because it wouldn't be valuable as it stood at. I believe that may have actually been under Ivor Obama or the early Trump years. The more that employers and businesses feel able to stand up and say, this is important to us, we need the skills, the easier it will be for those conversations to happen and for the narrative change. The thing is, though, it can't just be about immigration. You can't have those conversations and say, we need you to import a load of people in for us. Because certainly, I have friends who would say, well, hang on a minute, what about my children? What about me? What about my neighbours? What about my family? Any skills strategy has got to, the first priority has got to be the domestic workforce, the domestic people available to do the work. But it also has to be brave enough and mature enough to recognise that there will be circumstances such as healthcare in the UK where they simply aren't, you simply can't gear up for the number of people that you need. And that's where you need to be able to import import the talent. When we think about this in the context of the unboundary, actually, when we think about it more generally, I need to recruit at the moment. I have several vacancies. I need to know who's available, I need to know what I need, who is available, what will be involved in onboarding them. And then the support that they will need during the first several months of employment. And I need to have all of that in place. And obviously I do, I recruit people all of the time. It will feel slightly different to think of displaced people. It would feel conceptually different to think about looking in Marina's catalogue for the skills that you need. But it really isn't. You know what you need. The catalogue is as good as any recruitment platform that you could happen to find. And you'd be able to look on there, hopefully, find the people that you need. Marina will be able to talk about experiences of employers who have never seen as strong a set of candidates who are available through there. And then once the person arrives in immigration and work permits are generally not designed to accommodate forcibly displaced people, documents, language requirements, etc. can be difficult. But we've made it work in Canada. We've made it work in Australia and the UK. It is possible in other countries too. And then in terms of the onboarding, they are onboarded like anybody else. And the additional support that their family members may need is all part of the package. And what that tying into public narrative gives you is a, it gives you a platform so that not only can you get the skilled people that you need, you can also begin to talk to your own people. Start with your own staff and say, actually, this is the difference that we are making. But this isn't charity. Look at the difference that the particular person or group of people are making. It gives you a chance to go into the press and say, actually, this has not only solved the problem for us, it has helped us to become a more diverse and a stronger, richer, more culturally rich organization as a consequence. And when those, if you could start by talking to your own people and then moving out into the public forum, it can only help with the narrative. And actually, it can only help you with your brand, whether you're looking at potential customers or looking at potential candidates to show the sort of organization, show where your values are, frankly, which has never been more important than that. If I may, I just want to echo that it doesn't only start with business leaders. Business leaders can inform and be transparent about how much they rely on skilled migration. People can be profiled, for example, if they are comfortable to do that. But really, the more people that know about the positive impacts and their actual interactions with skilled migrants, the better. And so there was a situation in Glasgow a few weeks ago where someone was being deported, a person seeking asylum, it was the community who went out, surrounded the van so that the van could not move until the man was released from the detention. That was the story. The story then became about community. It does take community. So the more the community knows about the realities of immigration, it's not just a label that can be thrown around and associated with negative things. The more they can read those articles and be like, yeah, that's not true. Like I'm not threatened by my job. I know that in my firm, we need more software engineers. And so there is the very crucial factor of higher refugees, higher displaced people, higher local and international candidates to feel the skill shortages as the needs arise. But on the other side, talk about it. Make it normal, normalize it and allow people to engage with that as content so that they can be critical of the mass media and release the intensity and the importance of that sort of language when they know that the person sitting next to them came from a certain country that's now being profiled as a negative story. So I think that it really does take community and the business community have a huge pool in being able to change the first internally. And then that will ripple out to a much more public forum. And are you finding that more and more companies, more and more institutions are setting up skills, mobility programs, or thinking about skills, mobility issues? Is that something that's slowly taking off and will start becoming more and more widely understood and known? I think if you institutionalize these kind of issues, it's also a way of mainstreaming them. So I don't know if there are a lot of, if you know of a lot of organizations that are doing sort of skills, mobility programs or initiatives. Yeah, lots and lots. So I mean, there are two parts to it. One is the access to the talents and schools you need in a particular location, but the other, and that's so, so important, but the other part of it is the retention and development of the talent that you've already got. In the past, that would have meant finding the right job for them wherever it happened to be in the world and moving them there so that on a short term assignment so that they can grow and a particular business can develop. Well, well-trodden path, particularly in the tech community, but also financial services, also pharmaceuticals and indeed engineering, although engineering tends to be more about we need the particular skills here or we have them in location A and we need to bring people over so that they can then take them back to location B. But actually, as a consequence of the worldwide pandemic and the lockdown, what we're seeing an awful lot more of is what right now is being termed as digital nomads, policies where people are being given option or the opportunity to choose where they happen to work in the world. And maybe I would love to work in New York for a year and go out there so long as the work permission is available and it's possible to do that. Maybe I would like to, so many Caribbean islands have digital nomad schemes, which are actually akin to tourism. You are working, but you're working on what I imagine to be a palm tree stream beach, possibly with a non-alcoholic cocktail next to you, possibly you might be cheating on that, but living your best life, so we're seeing an awful lot more movement in that direction. Where it becomes difficult is where people don't understand that yes, you might want to work in a rustic farm in Tuscany, but you're going to need the work permission and you're going to need permission to do that, even if you are going to be quite remote. But it is happening more and more, so long as immigration and of course tax, tax is very important in this, can be made to work. What we expect to see, and we're seeing the gring shoots of this right now, and there's been an awful lot of talk for years now about the future of work. It feels like huge chunks of the future of work have arrived early as a consequence of COVID, but they tend to be in the flexibilities that they are envisaged in the future of work. What we're beginning to see is more around the more thought given to actually the future of work will be no more nomadic careers in the journey that you take and the jobs that you do. People are going to need to be reskilled to move into new careers as the career that they happen to be and is assumed by technology or otherwise become redundant. We are beginning to have conversations about how mobility could be a way to create opportunities for people to expand their skills, gain new ones, become more aligned with or integrated into your work community and essentially benefit them in you. Attrition has been increasing over the years, retention has gone down for many employees. People have felt able to move, particularly millennials. How can an ability be a way to bind a person to your organization? How can it be a way so that everybody can benefit really? Within this diversity and inclusion plays an important part and you can only benefit from having people from different backgrounds and cultures in your organization and this again is where we see many of the conversations about talent beyond boundaries coming in. It's 50% will be around. I need 100 IT workers. I cannot find them in Canada or Australia, wherever it may be. Can you help me find them please? And then of course Marina can, but it could also be we believe in diversity, we believe in inclusion. We want more of that and we also want to be able to more visibly demonstrate this and demonstrate our values. How can you help us with that? Displaced talent can only ever be part of the solution. If that's your entire solution, your values aren't, I don't think you would necessarily understand your values, but it's an important one. Yeah, no Marina. I wanted to know like have you seen the growth you've experienced at TVB over the last couple of years? You started in 2014 I believe and what kind of growth have you witnessed and what are your predictions for the future? We hear a lot about wars on talent, war on skills. So what is your sort of your analysis of what's coming next? Yeah, so we actually started in 2016 following the the Syria crisis. That was the sort of catalyst to the co-founders Mary Louise and Bruce Cohen and John Cameron saying there are skilled people, yes they're displaced, but how do we get them out without relying on resettlement. So since that was the the idea started in 2016 and started sort of in the US and in Australia. Since then there was obviously an administration in the US which meant that you know lobbying and advocacy on on displaced talent mobility wouldn't be super successful so attention was sent to Canada. So five years ago now it was a seed of an idea. It was like this would be ideal if something like this could manifest. Since then there has been a government commitment from Canada to move 500 skilled refugees and their families. There have been there is a commitment of the Australian government to move 100 refugees and their families. We're in discussions now with the Home Office and the UK. We're working with the European Commission. We have a proposal together with Fragman and IOM to open late displaced talent mobility into Ireland, Portugal, Belgium and the UK to start in those countries given the skills shortages and the visa opportunities. So basically it's escalated from a nice idea to people moving and the projection is that this will just be another type of skilled migration that will allow for autonomous access both from employers and employees. We still have a way to go. There are different, the real power to what we're trying to do is the fact that the starting point is what already exists. Skilled visas exist in most managed migration context. What we're trying to do is to make them accessible and equitable to people who are coming from displaced backgrounds. But in doing that, not compromising on integrity, just really looking at the administration and the administrative barriers to someone who has been displaced and accessing that. So whether that is cost, whether that is documents, whether that is receiving a evidence of an address through a lease that someone who is living in displacement cannot produce or finding an alternative way to show that they live in a certain area. What we're trying to do is basically look at what already exists to try and adapt it and to either create different streams or just to embed concessions that if you are eligible for displaced talent mobility, you can access a pathway. What we're also doing is really looking at grafting the solution onto providers who already assist people who, A, need skilled migrants and skilled talent, B, who work with refugee serving organisations, and C, with policymakers who are looking at making sure that their systems in the words of the UK attract the best and the brightest. And so I think that it is a very natural thing because if it is led by skill, it's like, how can we make sure that that skill gets involved? And some of our biggest and best advocacy strategies have been with an employer in the room. It's a very different thing to say, I'm a former refugee and, you know, I'm an immigration lawyer with 10 years experience and this is the right thing to do policymakers or politicians, we should do this to having a CEO of a nursing home and a software company come into the room and say, I literally can't treat people in my area because I do not have physiotherapists that will want to live in a rural community. These people in Lebanon who do not have a future, who do not feel safe, but who have the skills, we need them here, how do we do it? And then it becomes, you start losing the labels, it becomes dynamic and collaborative. And it is to a shared goal of making sure that skills shortages exist to make a cohesive society. So I'm very optimistic, I'm very passionate about this being able to work. And I am that because we've seen it. Yeah, my colleagues in Australia and Canada have worked very hard and we have a proof of concept. Now it's about how do we lift, replicate it and use what already exists in other countries to make it work. And it's nice for moving it from a humanitarian issue really to it, to a business and employment issue, which I think is also quite interesting. I just have one final question and I just wanted to conclude by with you both answering the same question. And it's about recognition of skills. There's two, it's a twofold question. So there's how do we promote more cross-border recognition, you know, recognition of skills. So yes, if you are the Lebanese software programmer, how can your skills that were developed there be transferred and recognized in a UK or Australian or Canadian frame context? And then I think that that's sort of the first one. It's this recognition of cross-border recognition of skills. And then the second one is about what are the legal frameworks that you think need to change or need to be developed more to actually facilitate this skills migration. So Marina would you like to watch that? Yeah, so I think that the power of and it's something that you alluded to, Jean, it's the power of the private sector, employers, public or private being a stakeholder in in this solution and in skilled migration, right? The employer knows what they need. And so what we found has been really successful is when employers can go through a competitive recruitment process, whether that means a coding test, whether that means videos of a butcher performing a slaughter, whether that means, you know, showing a portfolio of work as an architect, the employer knows what they're looking for. So the more that it is regulated, the more that it is defined, the more that it is restricted. So what we strongly believe is that the employers are the best judges of what skills shortage they have. And so where we've had things like external skills assessment processes and things like that, they become quite rigid because they have to apply to everyone in every industry in every job description. If you're a software engineer, you're a software engineer here. There are no nuances because it becomes too broad. So I think that if legal structures and frameworks are framed in the sense of giving trust to employers to pick their their best candidates, keeping in mind, of course, that there have to be integrity measures, they have to be anti exploitation measures, but that doesn't have to be through mandating a skills assessment authority or something like that. I will say that we are working with nurses in the UK. And in working with nurses, they have to go through exactly the same process as any other nurse registering into the UK. So that's recognition with the nursing and midwifery council. They have to get the right English score. They have to do an ethics and a theory test. They have to do a clinical test. The biggest obstacle there for some migrants could be where that is done. And if it cannot be done in the country that they are, and they cannot afford in the country that they are to move to another country, looking at ways in which a bridging opportunity or a temporary opportunity exists to go to a country like the UK to cross qualify in order to secure the job. So perhaps a staged or a provisional visa could be an opportunity for other countries to explore if registration and licensing is mandatory. Of course, I mean, I would want to know that the nurse treating me is registered. And so how do we make that happen so that we're not in a shortage? So yes, my answer is twofold. So to say employer led where registration and licensing is not required and to make registering and licensing more required globally or a pathway to accessing that country to cross qualify in order to start working in your occupation at your level. Yeah. And if I just in terms of the recognition of skills, if we think about workforce planning in the broader sense, any workforce planning strategy would tend to include one of one or more of free tactics. You either buy the skills in that you need, you borrow them or you build them. The interesting thing about this particular program is it combines the building with the buying. You're bringing people in who are already very, very talented. This is not charity. If you want to bring them in to be charitable, you're a very kind person, but that doesn't feel very realistic or commercial. This is about understanding that where you have a talent gap, people here are available and can do a good job for you, an excellent job. And you would be bringing them in late. Perhaps their skills are not 100% in line with where you are at that particular moment, but they've already proven the potential that they have. They've already proven their talent and you have an opportunity to build them up and build the business up at the same time. Just in terms of the barriers, and actually, Jean, you put it really well that the scheme moves at displacement to an extent at least, humanitarian and to commercial ends. You could never have, it would be wrong and Marina would agree, if the world's sole problem to displacement, sorry, solution to displacement was talent beyond boundaries and displaced labour mobility. You have to have more traditional red cross, etc., asylum routes. But actually, what this category has done is, if what the scheme has done is say, keep all of that, that's so, so important. But in the meantime, there are so many talented, skilled people out there, 29,000 in the catalogue now, and you know, there's going to be an awful lot more in that catalogue by the time Marina and the team have finished. Continue with the humanitarian routes, but let's just make sure that skilled people, if they can find work in another country, excluded from applying for that job, simply because the work permit rules don't imagine a person who would struggle to provide that lease, struggle to provide a copy of their degree certificates, etc. So the conversations that we've had in the UK, really positive conversations. Marina did really well getting a promise in the House of Lords to do an awful lot more here. Likewise, the conversations that have happened in Canada and Australia, the conversations that will happen in Europe will be, you have a work permit category. Let's just have a look at the bits of it that make it hard for a displaced person to apply and remove those barriers or find practical solutions. People are going to need travel documents, they are, but it's really hard to have a passport if you've been forcibly displaced. Conversation with the authorities will be, what can we do in terms of temporary documents? What would you accept in other circumstances that you could begin to accept for a work permit application? So I had 10 years in government, I think I know how government works. I was surprised just how straightforward the conversations ended up being, whether it was in Parliament or in the annals of Whitehall, as we're having those discussions. And as we agree, it sort of, this applies not only to the context of displacement, refugees, but we're talking globally. If you want to search for the skills you need in a global market, that opportunity should be available to you as an employer. And it's, you want to also look at the local market, but you should have the opportunity also not to have barriers in terms of global recruitment. So I want to thank you both. Thank you very much for taking time out from your very busy schedules.