 Hey everybody, today we're debating whether or not Muhammad was a prophet and we are starting right now with Reform Salafi's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us, Reform Salafi. The floor is all yours. All right, thank you for the platform. I'm just going to start because I don't have that much time I think to cover it all, but hopefully I will once again. Okay, let me get this out of my screen. An evidential case for Islam. Okay, so one second. Yeah, starting off there's two types of arguments people give and the first is C inductive arguments and the second are P inductive arguments. You don't have to let the little symbols intimidate you. A C inductive argument is just when the probability of a hypothesis given some piece of evidence E in our background knowledge K is higher than the probability of the hypothesis just given our background knowledge. And then a P inductive argument says that the probability of the hypothesis given the evidence in the background knowledge is above 0.5 or above the half so it's more probable than not right. And so Bayes theorem and some additional info the theorem won't be important I'm just putting it there just so you can know. But for the symbols PR will stand for the probability of H will stand for our hypothesis which in the discussion will be Islam. So I'm just going to change it for I and then E is going to stand for just some data set or some piece of evidence some consideration some datum however you want to say it just some observation which will support the hypothesis. And then K is going to be the total background knowledge so everything else you know just any kind of tautological evidence and whatever else you know. And so the probability of E the observation probability of witnessing that observation given your hypothesis in K is going to be called the likelihood and the probability of the hypothesis given the background knowledge is going to be called prior probability and the probability of the evidence given just the background knowledge is going to be called the marginal likelihood but what's important is the posterior probability that's what we'll be talking about which is the probability of the hypothesis given some evidence and our background knowledge. Okay so when considering the evidence we want to consider holistically so we'll have like evidence one two three four pieces of evidence right and so the probability of a hypothesis given some evidence one and K is just it's it's probability given that single piece of evidence right but then when we make the next argument we're going to include E1 into a into our background knowledge so we know now that K includes E1 so when we make the argument from E2 part of the background is that E1 is included right so we just start feeding all of the piece of evidence into our background knowledge so we end up when we come to our final argument let's say like E5 E6 the background knowledge already includes all those other pieces of data okay and then finally after feeding all of those you'd get the conjunction of all the E's just E which is E1 E2 E3 and so on and so I'd want to say the probability of the hypothesis given the conjunction of all those arguments and given our background knowledge is going to be higher than the probability of just the hypothesis in the background knowledge so it's a good C inductive argument and also the probability of the hypothesis is going to be higher given the evidence and background knowledge than 0.5 so it's more probable than not so the hypothesis which I'll be defending obviously the uh design revelation hypothesis that's going to be more probable than not okay so an example of the rule applied is with like a murder like Jones murdered Smith right that's your hypothesis and you get new evidence Jones's fingerprints were on the weapon and your background knowledge would include some proposition about how fingerprints work and about how everybody has a unique set of fingerprints so that E given your K would raise the probability of the hypothesis by a law right you can't really give it an exact numerical value you couldn't say it's like 0.6 0.7 you could the point is you couldn't give an exact numerical value but you could talk about it being high probability low probability or somewhere in between right you can meaningfully meaningfully talk about that without giving exact numerical values and so background knowledge okay so this part has been important included and you don't have to read all that included in the background knowledge or K for me is going to be the proposition that God exists this isn't just going to be an assumption here it's a premise of the argument and it's defensible with all kinds of arguments metaphysical arguments from divine conceptualism cosmological like the ones I defended the kca uh teleological like the fine tuning epistemological like from moral knowledge and so on so forth you also have ontological and other types of arguments so that's a premise of the argument and it's what's what its use will be is what what it implies so the first thing it implies is that there is some causal force in reality which can make it such that some miracle occurs there also is some omniscient being which knows the future and the probability of there being a prophet or some revelation from God or some miracles or events which make God evident they're all higher because the probability of these on naturalism is just going to be zero so the probability of these given theism is just going to be much much higher than that so and then the above just follows from properties like personhood lovingness goodness and why have you okay so then the first consideration and that would be structure so what i'm going to argue is that the Quran exemplifies like a fantastic sort of linguistic structure parallelist parallelism concentricism concentrism sorry and so on and it's improbable given the way the Quran is revealed and a note on that is that it's revealed in response to certain events that happened right so many of like the verses are in response to specific events they don't they weren't predetermined prior to its conception right by the author at least like for example on the i mean this on the false prophet hypothesis right so he couldn't have known that xyz is going to happen in the future for him to have planned those verses ahead he only writes them or comes up with them afterwards after those events occur and so well initially appearing disjoint right that there's no thematic connection between the verses in any given chapter i think that doesn't work so and some two examples of this of this sort of ring structure and this is studied by a scholar named brahman faran in a book which the source will be down there in a moment you have a sort of ring structure in the second chapter of the Quran where you start and this is a concentrism because you have e at the middle there and then it all builds up towards that and then it goes back around in a circle right back to a starting with like faith and unbelief and then creation to the to the core of it which is the main message and it's like the the new test of faith saying my internet is unstable um anyways and you get to the Kaaba and all that and then you go round circle being tested for the rest deliverance of law creation faith and unbelief so it goes a full circle so while one might think it's sort of disjoint this just it's it's not exactly the case it's just it doesn't follow a linear path instead it follows follows a circular path and so we wouldn't expect this kind of linguistic structure for something that was revealed piecemeal for something that was revealed sort of in response to things it was like a living text you know in response to things going on it was revealed in that sort of manner so you wouldn't expect structures like this to appear in it because this shows shows sort of intentionality towards it right and this is just the second example where you start with this one's parallelism I believe you start with like a about God's light and then you have a dash God's light and then you go like the example of his light light upon lamp from blessed olive tree and the oil that radiates from it so that sort of thing and then you move towards the center where they parallel each other they're parallel to each other and you keep you keep doing this right as you go ahead go forward so that's for uh the sort of ring structure parallelism concentrism these sort of structures that you wouldn't expect from this sort of text right especially given a false prophet hypothesis where this person is just you know he's just a lying uh lying deceiving person right you wouldn't expect something like an excellent structure in there you wouldn't expect something like ring structure or anything like that on the contrary you'd expect no structure at all you wouldn't even you probably wouldn't even expect it to be on like a good linear structure because if he's just coming up with as things go along he doesn't know what's going to happen right you wouldn't even expect good linear or ring structure so not even that basic or more advanced structure so then you can ask what theory does this support on my theory the divine revelation hypothesis this is just expected this is a prediction of my theory it predicts that there will be these excellent structures that um despite that sort of piecemeal revelation it's all going to fit together thematically and structurally it's going to be coherent on the false prophet hypothesis this isn't expected this is this is unexpected on that sort of hypothesis and since it's unexpected on that and expected online so by definition it would be evidence for my hypothesis so the first argument would be the probability of i given e1 where e1 is excellent structure and k is our background knowledge is going to be higher than the probability of i given k and so i given k is just without considering any new evidence is just our prior probability just our background knowledge what do we think about i it's going to be higher than that so e this means that e supports the hypothesis and then further reading he has a reyman farron has a whole 160 page book where he studies the more detailed versions of these and with more much more examples all right so the second one was uh er jes so it proposes a challenge to the arab's right to meet the eloquence of the quran and the arab's known for their skill in poetry and prose instead of uh instead of attempting to meet the challenge they try to kill him boycott him and we have numerous reports about this so instead of trying to meet it as they would with any other kind of poetry they just set all that aside and try and stop him from spreading his message and try and kill him and so this indicates sort of inability to for them to respond to it because if and one can even say that they didn't think uh it was like highly eloquent or anything because we have you have pretty much every scholar claiming it's eloquent you might want to obviously not the um the scholars who reject aren't going to say it's miraculously eloquent of course that's a claim i think that goes out of their pay above their pride grade but um the point is that it is considered eloquent in the classical text in arabic that's studied by pretty much every um arabic in pretty much every arabic class so say it's not very eloquent so they didn't feel the need to respond just seems completely um implausible i guess so they're not responding seems to indicate inability to respond and this would be due to its um superior eloquence and so on instruction whatnot and then you have also these major arab poets like Hassan bin Thabit who converted upon hearing the Quran so that also indicates something more that this uh that this new text was something above the poetry of the time it was something that broke the norms of the standard poetry at the time and so again we can ask which theory right what does this support on my divine revelation hypothesis this is completely predicted in fact it's it's completely predicted because of course they're going to fail this is a divine text versus some random poetry right so this is definitely going to be above what they can respond to they're not going to have the ability and so the data we have about the Arabs known for their superior poetry refusing to meet the challenge this fits in very good with my hypothesis but does it fit in very well with the false prophet hypothesis not so much because we'd expect that this person with this upbringing upbringing of an orphan this unlettered person he's just a liar a deceiver on this theory when i was a little he he doesn't have any sort of background in this either so why is it that he brought this text that just completely blows everything else out of the water that fits in perfectly with my theory and it just runs completely contrary to this competing theory the false prophet hypothesis and so the probability oh and we're including the structural eloquence into k so the evidence also fits in very well with our background knowledge about god's existence and about the structural excellence so i given e2 and k is higher than i given k and that's it for our jazz and so prophecy um when it comes to prophecy and miracle i only wanted to include one or two because uh it would just be too much to keep throwing stuff and throwing everything at the sink you go i mean so i'm just going to try and restrict it to one one prominent example uh many polemicist spring is this one that somebody's asked about the hour what is one of its signs and one of the response he gives is that you'll see these barefoot naked desktops to shepherds competing and constructing tall buildings and in the narration in mustahd Ahmad he says that these uh these individuals specifically are just the air apps right and so now we know that the ui e and uh gulf countries they're competing to build these uh unusually large structures right like burr al khalifa and other buildings right they and they keep competing to build newer and newer taller ones and these of course are the original air apps they're competing to do this so this seems like a fairly specific prophecy that did in fact come true in our times and so on which theory on the divine revelation hypothesis of course once again we expect the oddly specific prophecies like this such as affirmation aforementioned come true because we have this omniscient being guiding him in the background right but on the false prophet hypothesis we'd expect the exact opposite that if you were to give these um oddly specific ones they would just completely fail right they'd be demonstrably false so again i'm not gonna really gonna bother repeating myself too many times i already done that too much i guess i e3 you get the idea it's supporting evidence and point four correct theology this is probably going to be a bit more contentious contentious oh okay so basically there's a correct theology it's not bound by any trinitarian considerations nothing like that on false prophet you'd expect uh mishmash of the contemporary theology's polytheism so on just all coming together informing this incoherent theology so this is further supporting evidence miracle i don't think i have that much time to cover this one given our background knowledge we just expect that in some some point in history some miracle occurred that made god evident and so there's a very high frequency of miracle reports surrounding him and you have reports from numerous individuals and we also have a few prior reasons for thinking he's a prophet already and so one example is on the during the day of al-hudaybiyah the companions had no water and so he produced water right and uh large amounts for everyone to drink so this reported by anas uh no so jayb i'm ron ben hussain and uh others to eight eight through different chains right and some of these people you know they literally fought in wars to uh to protect the religion so it's kind of 15 seconds so the delusion hypothesis that they all had just had this mixed delusion very unlikely and the liar hypothesis i don't think that's likely given their lives and histories and then the final consideration it's just the um the engagement of this text with former texts i don't really have much time to cover it so i'll just put it on the screen hopefully it could be read quick enough and so the summary is just that e6 which uh is the final one and k which we said all of the other ones into is highly uh more probable than i given k and because of that we have good grounds to believe that the probability of i given e6 and k which has all of our other ease is higher than 0.5 and that's it time thank you very much and want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from and don't forget to hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up that you don't want to miss in the future with that we're going to kick it over to ap for his opening statement as well thanks for being with us apostate prophet the floor is all yours for your opening as well thank you so much first off uh thanks for viewing everyone uh i'm not sure if the screen is back to normal right okay it is yeah sure um first off thanks everybody for being here thanks uh halid or from salafi and thank you james for hosting us um i want to start with uh my independent opening statement it will not be a response to uh to to halid's opening statement it will be independent in the rebuttals we will get to the arguments that he just made i will uh not focus on um how miracles or prophecies or revelations are supposed to work on the country i will go exactly by the methods that islam operated with from the very beginning i will directly look at the islamic sources themselves our topic um is not uh the quran our topic is not uh logic our topic is rather whether muhammad was a true prophet or not how do we find out whether muhammad was a true prophet we look at several different um factors it's very arbitrarily defined what a prophet is supposed to be a prophet in the islamic terms is expected to be uh a person who communicates with the divine so he's inspired uh he delivers an important message or a law that makes him a messenger in islamic terms uh and he uh speaks predicts the future prophesies about the unseen that makes him a prophet uh now do we have actually witnesses of muhammad communicating with the divine i would like to put it on the screen unfortunately we don't have any witnesses of him uh communicating with the divine we don't have any such thing therefore there is nothing to put on the screen we do however have uh witnesses who saw him um during in his state of revelation in his state of um communicating with the divine and i want to go into those witness reports um a little bit can you confirm james that you see the right screen with my text on here yes now it's clear okay so you see this uh this is one of the first um reports about muhammad's uh revelations what exactly he would experience uh as you can see here it says sorry my screen is a little bit stuck here but i'm trying to get to it uh it says this is narrated by by aisha by muhammad's uh wife who was a child when he married her a companion asks muhammad how was the divide inspiration revealed to you muhammad then says sometimes it is revealed like the ringing of a bell this form of inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after i have grasped what is inspired so the witness reports of muhammad communicating with the divine supposedly consists of uh him saying that he hears the ringing of a bell and this is very hard very uncomfortable for him it goes on it says sometimes the angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and i grasp whatever it is he says the third point is aisha saying i saw the prophet being divinely inspired on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead so these are uh some reports of what happens to muhammad when he is divinely inspired um another report we have in which it says when gabriel revealed the divine inspiration in uh in our last messenger so when he communicates with with muhammad uh he our last messenger moved his tongue and lips and that state used to be very hard for him and that movement indicated that revelation was taking place so imagine what is happening here is not that uh muhammad is instantly receiving information from the divine but rather uh he hears the ringing of a bell he sees a person in front of him and that that feels very uncomfortable he sweats heavily and here in this case he moves his tongue and lips in a very rapid way i will not make any judgments on what probably happened here but if something like this happened to a person today we would not think that this guy is a prophet who is being inspired by the by the divine we would rather conclude that uh he has a disorder a mental or neurological disorder and we would then try to help him and uh send him to uh professionals who would further analyze what exactly is going on unfortunately in the times back then people reported these things as prophecies as uh communications with the divine um what we have further is that he would walk around and see uh the angel gabriel in the sky the same who visited him in a cave when he was when he would go and sit there for long times which is not unusual and uh he would get so afraid that he would come back home and he would ask to be wrapped uh so these are the reactions of him being uh seeing the supernatural beings that talk to him on behalf of allah in another case we have this for example his uh helper umar uh reports that he is being uh divinely inspired right now and he asks a different companion says would you like to see muhammad being divinely inspired umar then lifts the corner of the cloth under which uh muhammad is currently being inspired and the guy reports i looked at him and he was emitting a sound of snorting he said i thought it was the sound of a camel so and afterwards after this state is over muhammad wakes up and says okay where is this guy who was just asking me questions and that he gives the revelations from allah to him so as you can see another report of what happens when muhammad communicates with the divine is that he makes loud sounds snorting sounds like a camel this i'm sorry does not sound like revelation to me although of course i don't know i have never seen revelation really happen in another case we see the same report saying that muhammad was very red faced when this situation was over in another state we say we see that muhammad is quiet for a very long time and this is him being divinely inspired and it takes a while and then it is over in another state he goes in kind of a state of trance and when the state is over then allah inspired him and when the state of inspiration was over the bone was still in his hand so he was eating a bone with meat on it and he was being divinely inspired because he was just asked the question about whether his wives are allowed to go to the toilet or not and then he is inspired by allah with the with the bone in his hand and then he comes to himself and says okay i just i was just inspired you have been allowed to go out for go out of the house for your needs i don't know if i need to point this out but is this really what you would expect the divine being the almighty god the almighty creator from from eternity from pre eternity to inspire his extremely important messenger who is supposed to bring a an extremely vital message for all mankind i would rather expect of course this is just my expectation i'm not saying this is how it's supposed to be right but i would for example rather expect that that muhammad is instantly inspired with significant information and that he doesn't act in strange ways or experience severe discomfort during his inspirations given this given that he snorts moves his tongue and his lips in wild ways makes loud noises hears bells feels very uncomfortable shakes and shivers and sweats it looks to me like he was not being divinely inspired he was he had a condition which back in the day was interpreted as prophecies or his inspiration or as a divinity because people didn't know better when it comes to whether there are miracles that have been verified so we have seen that that people did not witness him communicating with the divine they witnessed him being inspired and that looked very bad now when it comes to miracles there is the one big miracle which is that muhammad apparently in his time witnessed that the moon was split in two this was a miracle for his prophecy for his prophethood caused by Allah this is known in muslim culture that the moon was split in two in muhammad's time unfortunately as you can see this is very clearly described here in these reports it says that the moon was split in two pieces and a piece of the mountain of the moon went toward the mountain in other reports it says that that the mountain was then between between the the parts of the moon would you believe that this actually happened in the seventh century you would not think further about this if you are a believer think about the seventh century the seventh century was not uh four thousand bc the seventh century was a time where many civilizations were around the world that had night watches that had people watching the sky all the time people uh different cultures like the japanese that had moon gods and so on there is no single record not a single record from around the world that such a thing happened in the seventh century only these few uh oral transmissions from muhammad's faithful believers there is no single record outside of this that the moon was split into anywhere was it a miracle that was only seen by those specific people there i doubt that that would be kind of strange right um on the other hand we have uh i'm sorry i'm a little bit okay we have him we have certain miracles like that he flew on a flying horse unfortunately that happened only at night when he was asleep so there were no witnesses to it that he communicated with gents nobody can verify that just as nobody can verify that he communicated with the divine we have one very interesting report which i find very funny muhammad says one morning a strong demon from the gins came to me yesterday suddenly so as to spoil my prayer but allah enabled me to overpower him and so i caught him and intended to tie him to one of the pillars of the mosque so that all of you might see him wow so here we actually have something that comes very close to people experiencing or witnessing that he communicates with supernatural beings but unfortunately what happens next but i remembered the invocation of my brother Solomon and grant me a kingdom such as shall not belong to any other after me so i let him go cursed oh okay in an incoherent way for some strange reason he then let this demon go so in the end nobody witnessed the demon again unfortunately uh muhammad also explained things disappearing at night or kids disappearing at night with the idea that gins spread out in the evening and snatch things away which is why you why you are supposed to cover your utensils and tie your water skins and close your doors and keep your children close to you at night if this were true we would have cctv footages or otherwise camera footages nowadays that things somehow disappear in the middle of nothing for no reason they just suddenly disappear or they just suddenly float away because they are being dragged away by gins of course we know that such things do not happen we do not have a single footage of things randomly floating away or disappearing because this does not exist muhammad believed in superstitions that people believed in in seventh century arabia now when it comes to the message of what muhammad was actually delivering i quickly stopped sharing my screen uh muhammad's message is that there is no god but Allah that he's the messenger and that he's that Allah demands submission this is his message on the surface his actual message is that he is speaking for the same god of abraham but i just realized that i don't have very much time left so i'm going to skip this part actually to be very honest and go to uh to the prophecies that muhammad made so i will go back to sharing my screen again i'm very sorry about this james i didn't plan the time very very well here no problem um so when muhammad made prophecies about the future there is one thing that is very significant uh muhammad did not know when exactly the the hour the last hour would come but he made certain predictions such as this one anus reported that a person asked a lost messenger as to when the last hour would come he had in his presence a young boy of the ansar who was called muhammad too uh muhammad said if this young boy lives he may not grow very old till he would see the last hour coming to you now there are lots of disputes about what this actually means in order to save muhammad from embarrassment we actually have uh this narration this prophecy in uh one two three four five six different cases in two of these cases the wording is suddenly switched to your hour will come which is why muslims say he was actually just talking about their death but that doesn't really make sense the people are asking him when will the hour come the hour in reports in fundamental islamic reports about muhammad always always refers to the day of judgment in these reports that have much more weight he or he responds with before this boy grows very old the hour will be established in two other reports the wording is changed to your hour will be established which then is supposed to indicate that he's just talking about their deaths in the translations it also says the last hour will come to you in order to make it sound different that's not really true the the arabic literally says the hour will not be established until this and this happens so unfortunately islamic scholars have tried a lot to correct muhammad to save him from embarrassment we have different reports showing the same that he will that the hour will come before he's very old we have muhammad saying that no human will survive the end of 100 years which is also about the day of judgments about the last hour we have him saying that the jaal will come before the day of judgment and we have him saying in another report that a guy in his presence is actually the jaal this guy was known as ibn sayyad muhammad suspected that he is the jaal who is supposed to come at the end of time he also said that the romans will form the majority of humanity which is very funny the romans are long gone he says the hour will not come switch over okay okay sorry want to let you know folks no problemo we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from and also if you enjoy debates like this and you have a friend who might enjoy debates like this click that share button and share this debate with them as they might enjoy it as well we're going to jump into the 10 minute rebuttals so reform salafi the floor is all yours for your 10 minute rebuttal thanks for being with us all right so i was split into a few different points so i think the first one was kind of like just these weird states would happen when revelation was coming so implicitly in these reports is that the revelation would come and nobody was giving it to him right at least on the false prophet hypothesis he was just getting it from his his own his own mind right nobody was nobody that knows better was feeding him this information so that's implicit in those narrations i think that's worth noting and the second thing is i i'm not sure what the argument is supposed to be that like it comes in weird states therefore it's not in fact revelation if that's the argument then no gap has been bridged between these weird states and it not being a revelation like for example having a reddened face sweating a lot none of those indicate at all why how it would be non-revelation so i can't see what the argument there is the second thing i'm guessing this would be um would god inspire irrelevant stuff right just i'm trying to remember which one he mentioned in specific it was i'm guessing something about a high issue i think but anyways would god inspire irrelevant stuff how is it irrelevant the religion is meant to encompass pretty much everything in our living everything from oh sorry the small aspects the small aspects of our existence the larger aspects such as our meaning and so on so forth it's meant to inspire all kinds of things and talk to us about those kinds of things so how is it something irrelevant of course everything inspired is going to be something relevant to us okay and so and then we have the moon split thing so i think talking about priors it would seem like you'd expect lots of people to see it but then when you include numerous variables like for example what time it was in other places literacy whether people would think they were experiencing a delusion each of these come together to form sort of like a net of reasons why we'd expect there aren't any um any written texts about this also texts um surviving who would have wrote who would have written it would that text have survived so on so forth so you have these host of reasons for why there might not be a report about it so i don't think that's interesting because if you consider the prior it does seem like um we'd expect all these kinds of reports about when you consider um some consider when you have some consideration some observations added to it the posterior doesn't seem that high it doesn't seem like we'd expect all those reports and oh one second the next thing oh okay so the next thing was the false prophecy stuff the first one he uses is uh the your hour one or the hour one and it sort of sounds like poisoning the well because we have those those other reports which say as he mentioned your your hour in specific and in the classical scholars like and now we they interpret it that way as well they take it to mean that and that fits in with um with the tradition behind this because we know he doesn't know when the hour will occur that's that's a huge part of the tradition that he doesn't actually know so when he's asked he shifts it to give um something else he always shifts it to something else instead of telling him when exactly the hour will occur because he doesn't know in this case he shifts it to your hour instead so he shifts the dialectic because he doesn't know when the hour will occur so that fits in very well with the um with what we already know about uh what he knows we know that he doesn't know that when that the hour will occur in our tradition so that fits in very well with that and so that's why it sort of seems like cherry picking to pick one narrow the few narrations that support you and ignore the other ones and the ones which uh are the basis of the interpretation by classical scholars i don't think that's a strong argument and then another one was i believe uh about the romans so i'm not sure why romans couldn't mean something like just the genus of those people and the racial or ethnic grouping of the romans why couldn't they be uh for example the ones that make up the the majority and again it this also doesn't seem far-fetched because it sort of has this kind of uh near-sightedness if we don't know when exactly the hour will occur we don't know if it'll occur a thousand two thousand years from now so those ethnic groupings could become the majority within a large time span because we don't know when the hour will occur it's not going to occur we don't know if it's going to occur tomorrow thousand years 2000 so again this just seems like it hasn't happened yet so it's false was there something else that's what i have written down how much time do i have left five minutes and 15 seconds i'm trying to recall if you use anything else yeah i guess i'll just stop there and i'll let him go into his you got it and we'll kick it over to ap for his rebuttal as well which is going to be as long as 10 minutes then we're going into the open discussion if you happen to have questions you can fire them into the old live chat tagging you with at modern day debate or you can send in a super chat as we push those to the top of the list thanks ap the floor is all yours thank you so much uh i don't think i will take the full 10 minutes either maybe i will i don't know uh so when i when i look at um reformed salafi's initial uh opening statement in all honesty uh it was a little bit surprising to me that he focused very little on the actual um topic of uh muhammad's uh profit hood and prophecies and whether he was a reliable prophet he said that the Quran is uh very nicely very well structured i don't see how that is an argument uh yes it might have occasional good structures but that is not really that doesn't really say anything about whether the book was inspired by uh Allah or not it might be that uh that he was he had a very creative mind or that uh that people with very creative minds helped him or that it was shaped over time or that during its compilation it was shaped in the end we do not actually have any proper reports that the Quran that we have today is the Quran that was compiled by muhammad's followers after he died in muhammad's own time the book didn't exist physically and we also don't know whether the book that was finally compiled is actually exactly what muhammad spoke to his to his people who made notes of him when it comes to whether the Quran is inimitable and you know wonderful and unique and grammar and poetry and all that i spoke with two people so far um with shadi nasser who is uh an expert in this matters he's a harvard professor and also with morayan fan putin who is a scholar in the in the arabic language and in the Quran itself both of them are of the same opinion although they are not polemics they are not hostile to to the Quran at all on the contrary they will say quite a few good things about the Quran in its language they will also confirm that the Quran is not uh miraculously unique and superior to everything else and that the Quran's inimitability challenge is actually an incoherent challenge it doesn't make sense the Quran has its own style it has its own language however the Quran is internally inconsistent it has different styles throughout the book it is internally grammatically inconsistent and it very much forms a foundation of of the arabic language as it was used after itself so how could you use that how could you compare the quality of that when the book itself is the standard for its own quality it does not make any sense there are books that are better than it there are books over time that that will be better than the Quran there are books that are much older that are much more significant and much more much more well written and they have a more a better flow than the Quran so this inimitability is something that simply doesn't really hold any weight outside of islamic apologetics the one prophecy that he gave us gave us an example is that Muhammad said that the Arabs will build tall buildings i'm sorry i just don't know how to react to this it's okay yeah they will to build tall buildings good funny so how is what is that exactly supposed to tell us i don't want to sound condescending or too mocking about this but i don't understand i mean can you really make yourself believe that this is of great significance people spoke of tall buildings since people existed since language exists uh saying that the Arabs will build tall buildings is that really something that uh overshadows all the things that Muhammad said which seemingly are ridiculous about the future will you really go for that the Arabs will build tall buildings i'm sorry Muhammad also said that uh that that that certain Arab tribes will dance around Dhul Khalasa Dhul Khalasa was a a building in Yemen that was identical to the Kaaba but it had a different stone it was white apparently according to the reports Muhammad sent his people there and ordered them to destroy that building and to and they then killed everyone who was around it they came back Muhammad said good job well done may Allah bless you and your tribe thereby he destroyed a building that that that some other erics builds and thereby also disproved his own prophecy that before the end of time the people would be dancing around that cube Dhul Khalasa that is what i think of when when speaking of buildings i'm sorry when it comes to whether the theology of Muhammad was accurate or not these are claims that are unverifiable we have to talk about theology separately Muhammad can never present an actual argument on god's existence Muslims are much more advanced and i have to say we're from salafi our friend is much more philosophically and theologically advanced than Muhammad was he actually presents complex arguments Muhammad did not when Muhammad was asked about questions like who created Allah he said the devil comes to you and asks you who created this who created that and who created Allah when he comes to you seek refuge with Allah and stop thinking about such things that's what that was his answer he did not have a complex complicated philosophical arguments when it comes to the miracles he didn't go into miracles so i can't really see anything about that since i have some time left i would like to add to the few things that we talked about before on the the other points that i made when i said that Muhammad was receiving inspirations supposedly and there were very strange states of inspiration like him shivering and shaking and making noises and hearing sounds and all that i think the point was very clear the point was that was the only thing that people witnessed when Muhammad would when Muhammad would allegedly receive inspirations that is a very strange thing to witness it would be one thing to witness i don't know streams of beams coming from the sky and you know him receiving things in his hand and then you know revealing them with an overwhelming power to his people but no what happens instead is he he lies on the floor and makes loud snorting noises does that really sound impressive to me it doesn't it sounds like it is a mental disorder or a neurological problem and i have to say i like i'm studying psychology now which includes neuroscience and i really see a lot of patterns there which point toward one thing and one thing only Muhammad had a problem and he should have gotten help but unfortunately back in those times we did not help have the means to understand what kind of help he would need when it comes to the moon splitting i just want to show you one little thing here um when it comes to the moon splitting we're talking about the seventh century the seventh century is not 5000 bc as i have pointed out before i made videos about this before here i have taken an example from a Turkish video that i made but if the moon was if the moon was visible in Muhammad's time in arabia which is over here the moon would also be visible at the same time depending on what time of the year it is uh in or somewhere in china in india throughout the middle east in africa in europe and so on there are lots of civilizations around here there are the romans in this time or the eastern romans in this time the indians who were already engaged in a lot of observations of the sky the chinese who were relatively advanced the japanese who had moon gods and so on who would be observing the sky in this time nobody no single person i'm telling you it's not just uh you know few reports not a single person gave us a report of the moon being split or moving strangely in the seventh century it does not exist i do not think that this is possible i am very sorry i just do not believe that this is possible romans would have noted this others would have noted this they would have said something like this uh happened this has to do with our gods or something like this happened we have no idea what this is about people were not reasonable in those times they didn't they didn't think oh nobody will believe me they think i'm crazy people will report these things as supernatural events that happen but nobody reported it literally nobody um and when it comes to uh this hadith which i shared before the last hour would come when the romans would form a majority amongst people i think it's pretty clear the hadith is talking about the romans it's not talking about a certain religious group it's not possible that the romans would form a majority today the romans simply do not exist he could have described this in a different way if he meant white people or europeans or something like that instead he also talked about this these two wild tribes gorgon magog coming and invading the world and they are currently hidden behind a wall which is very strange such a thing does not exist uh the same people would defeat everyone on earth and then they would throw their arrows and swords to the sky and they would and blood would come down from the sky which implies that there are actual beings up in the sky that they would hurt which is an absurd seventh century understanding of how the world functions and so on there is just too much i don't have enough time to put all of this this in here but i think we are pretty much done thank you you got it thanks very much ap for that rebuttal we're going to kick it into open discussion mode this is about 25 minutes also want to let you know folks we are very excited for upcoming debates including several big debates islam versus atheism this summer you don't want to miss it so hit that subscribe button if you haven't already hit the subscribe button and with that we're going to jump into open conversation 25 minutes thanks gentlemen the floor is all yours okay so um with one of the first things you mentioned which was uh the the khalasa thing we have one arab historian and one western historian both who have written in that in contemporary times this happened this was around uh i think this was around the time saw the saudi on government what was established because they sent they sent a unit over to the place where this idol was being worshipped to destroy it again so we have reports of this happening in contemporary times where people were actually worshipping this exact idol again so that's for that and then the second thing you mentioned about uh him not having like philosophical or deep theological responses when somebody asks you know who created god i mean the sort of response you'd expect is that you're you're pretty much an idiot because that just goes against what exactly it means to be a god so i don't think his response was so you know so misinformed it was kind of like the obvious response unfortunately that wasn't really his response right his response was not uh look uh i am the prophet i'm here to inform you let me tell you that this question doesn't make any sense no his response was uh the devil comes to you and he tries to confuse you so don't think about such things what do you think that's very different from that's very different from saying uh you know what i mean he's the prophet right he's supposed to give people the relief the message what he could have said is guys look Allah is by definition this he cannot have been created himself what he does instead is the devil is trying to confuse you don't think according to you he does exactly this in the Quran when he talks about god being uncreated and being and being unbegotten and does not be guessed so i mean according to you he's already done this so this question it's just of course it is just a confusion upon what's being said and but that's not really the same thing right the Quran just says he's uncreated and he's he uh does not beget and is not begotten that's all it says it doesn't explain actually uh why that is and how that is it doesn't go into any philosophical arguments it just no because that's what god is that's a statement of definition i know it just makes uh it just states certain facts without explaining hey look this is what god is this is the definition of god this is what god must be according to this and this and this i think you would do that the Quran doesn't do that no i think you're conflating two things here a reason to think a being that is so and so exists and what is that so and so he has given that what is that so and so and on a different occasion he has given why that so and so and you there's uh forms of the teleological argument existing in the Quran about uh looking around you to see design so there's design inferences so there is a form of the teleological argument so he does get a sort of argument i'm sorry saying uh look at the sky it has no crack look at the sky who holds it up is not uh that's not what i was referring to though but he gives he tells you to ponder upon the world and look at what uh and look you'll see those design inferences and that's exactly what the fine tuning argument does how is that how is that comparable to the argument that you are that you make today when you talk are you in the last debate made the fine tuning argument right you explained uh in length in complicated ways why it makes sense that there is a design and there is an order and there is a measure of things you didn't just say these things you actually explained them the Quran merely says for example look around you uh do you think all of this came by itself look around you do you think others created it and so on it just right it's facts it doesn't explain anything i wouldn't exactly expect that a seventh century prophet would um or that so seven century people would understand uh gravity constants bayesian analysis and so on so forth so he's giving this primitive form of the argument that is comprehensible and that can be expounded upon and was expounded upon like a divinely inspired eternal book that uh is supposed to go for all of us what we have instead is simply a primitive language that only appeals to seventh century people no except that that what was said then still works today because i can expand upon that i can take that premise and i can build upon that for the argument so he has given that and he's given it in a way that applies to them and to us so it's understandable for everybody i mean do you think uh look at the sky there is no crack in it do you think that's a very good argument for example that's not what i was appealing to though but i mean that's but it's an example right an example of what the design inference that's not what i was talking about okay but what is that for example about what since we're talking since we're talking about uh arguments in the in the Quran for for the divine right the Quran says for example uh look at the sky uh is there is there a crack in it or who holds up the sky or he holds up the sky with pillars that you cannot see are these uh for example arguments for uh the power of god or for i think i think that's i think that's part of a larger theme in the Quran which is the occasionalistic theological background which is that god sustains creation in every tiny aspect of creation moment after moment god's power is in a very theistic sense instead of deistic he is just sustaining everything moment after moment that's occasionalism and that's a theme present in the text everywhere you go unfortunately these are not really good arguments the sky cannot can by definition not have a crack it cannot have a fault as described in the Quran it is not held up it cannot be held up it it it doesn't need to have pillars and so on so if you want to talk about arguments or philosophical arguments made by Muhammad or by the Quran itself i'm sorry there is just uh the Quran's account of those arguments is very bad well no this just seems like a general theme of talking about how reality would fall apart how the world and everything around you would fall apart without god sustaining it so i don't see why that would be a problem of course that's how you would interpret it that's and you would interpret in a different way which just supports your background i mean it's just going to be a matter of interpretation you take and i would actually i would actually just read it you would read into it you would apply an ic jesus i would just read it as it is well i i'm appealing to the holistic understanding of the text the occasionalistic backdrop of the text and it makes sense within that i don't isolate something and then read just that instead i take it holistically and what's the feel theology behind all of this and i say it's occasionalism and so that makes sense within that framework the problem with that would be that you can basically reinterpret every single thing that you find in that book in accordance with your beliefs because you say well this doesn't have to be evaluated on its own i will just consider this within the frame of all the other the greater theme of the Quran therefore these statements that on the surface look ridiculous are just part of that that wouldn't exactly be reinterpreting that would just be interpreting holistically right that would be reading it holistically instead of isolating i guess we can agree to disagree i would say that's a that's a very that's a very biased approach to a text and is an ic jesus i don't think it's actually an interpretation of i guess we can agree to disagree to move on to the next thing so uh have this written down okay so one thing you mentioned is that uh these people all they see during revelation is um these weird occurrences right but then you leave out the reports about them witnessing miracles you leave out the report for example of zaid in which uh the prophet when when revelation was coming down upon him and his head was on his lap he reports in a miraculous sense that it became extremely heavy it became like a huge burden on him and then there's other reports about them seeing angels for example and you can deny those but then when you do those and when you uh you employ that tactic of denying these but accepting these it again seems like you're isolating instead of looking at it holistically like we have these reports of them seeing these things and this broader uh aspect of revelation and them seeing these miraculous things we don't just have those so we can't just restrict it to those we do not actually have uh unanimous uh greatly accounted reports that people have literally seen and interacted with supernatural beings we have only reports of of one instance during the during the battle of the numbers appearing higher and so on when it comes to the incidents of um i don't understand uh the incident of muhammad being divinely inspired and his head being very heavy i would ask i would like to ask the crowd especially those who do not believe and those who seek do you think this is an impressive thing uh to me it isn't i mean so i'm some guy reports that this guy is getting very heavy uh and that's why that's happening while he's being divinely inspired no well i'm not saying like this is um a report that i would use as like a miraculous report but i'm saying zed is reporting this as if it's like something miraculous going on in front of them that's what he's witnessing something miraculous this these companions what the reporting are obviously things they witness as being miraculous they're not just reporting um him uh snorting or anything like that there's there's this whole view of them seeing angels and it's not just that one occasion there's other occasions with how that's seen them and or claims have seen them at least to remain somewhat neutral there and so you have uh this set this set of uh narrations where they see these um angels gint and so on so forth and then you have the ones you're appealing to which are isolated and outside and you're using just those but when you look at them all together it doesn't you the narrative just seems completely different let me ask you a question um if today a person that you know began to tell you that he's communicating um with a strange being that he's very afraid of and a strange being keeps visiting him he also uh occasionally uh needs to be covered up goes on onto the ground and you know goes together like this in shivers he hears ringings of the ringing of a bell he has hallucinations he sweats very heavily whenever this happens he's irresponsive and so on what would you think would you think this person is being divinely inspired or communicating with supernatural beings or would you rather send this person to uh to get some medical help okay so first thing i wouldn't think he's divinely inspired because i don't think anyone is divinely inspired after the prophet and if he had claimed um to be a prophet then we'd expect that he has prophecy miracle and so on so forth and that's what i argue for here and uh one thing you mentioned about so what would you do what would i do to him yeah well i'd investigate the case i'd see if there is an actual underlying naturalistic explanation if there isn't i wouldn't appeal to a naturalistic explanation and that's what i'm doing here is there an under underlying better naturalistic explanation i'm claiming there isn't okay would you would you would you send would you uh take that person to a doctor or would you tell that person to go to a doctor if he was investigated and we found out the cause of this stuff was underlying it was naturalistic ultimately like some kind of disease then we would so let me get this straight uh you would not believe that this person is being divinely inspired and this that this person actually um is communicating with divine beings because you cannot believe that such a thing can happen because you believe in Islam and that Muhammad was the final messenger yeah because i have good reasons to think there's already a last prophet so why would i think there's a new one well that means that you are that you have a a bias that comes from your belief which tells you uh even if the same things happen to Muhammad Muhammad was a prophet uh and you believe in him therefore because of your belief in him you cannot believe that somebody who reports the same things today could be a prophet so there must be a different explanation well i have good reason to believe one not and i don't have good reason for the other that's why it's not just bias it's not blind faith it's i've given a reason that is very interesting to me i i i i i hope you will um manage to see where why that would be why that would look very problematic there is a huge bias in here i mean clearly if i was here in front of the camera and if i recorded youtube videos and if i suddenly live on screen began uh snorting like a camel did like the noises like this and said i'm here i'm here in the ringing of a bell this is very uncomfortable but i have to tell you i just received a message through that bell i don't think you would exactly think that that makes sense you would be very sure that something is wrong with me except i know that's not the case with um Muhammad because i have reasons to believe that there is that there the naturalistic explanation doesn't work and that there's instead a different hypothesis which is more probable how does it not work it's it's less probable than the hypothesis i've given that's why i have good reasons to reject and accept a different one what makes your hypothesis stronger live that was in my presentation i gave a few reasons and then give gave a bayesian account why it would be stronger okay your reasons were uh the Quran is very well structured it has an imitability challenge which cannot be met two things that uh do not say anything about whether he was a prophet or not uh three that he said the Arabs will build tall buildings four that he presented an accurate theology and five uh miracles witnessed such as uh they reported that people had no water and Muhammad gave them more water these are things that i have overall accounts of uh things that apparently happened and some reasoning which just uh shows that the Quran is i guess impressive or unique not that it is actually divinely inspired i don't see how that makes your hypothesis stronger okay i think you misunderstood what i was saying because you have um these ease that feed into the k for the hypothesis right and then the first one you're saying it doesn't support um it doesn't support prophethood but how wouldn't it ring structures for examples more probable on my hypothesis we'd expect excellent structure given my uh divine revelation hypothesis we'd expect um prophecy given my hypothesis all those things aren't expected on your hypothesis and uh in response to um the example i gave with uh prophecy you didn't you just said uh first you didn't represent it correctly because it's there's a undertone of competition competing to build these and so it's even more specific than just saying they will build tall buildings and this is highly specific right here okay i'm sorry uh he didn't say the Arabs will build tall buildings he said the Arabs will compete in building tall buildings yeah that's a relevant difference i don't see how uh when it comes to the well the good structure of the Quran um i want to ask you a very brief question i don't think this is actually the main reasoning that i would go against it that's why i didn't present it but i want to ask you a very quick question can you with all certainty prove that the Quran that you have today is identical to the Quran that Muhammad uh dictated to his companions surrounding him with all certainty that that's like a hundred percent i'm somewhat of a fallibleist so i don't think you can prove anything with complete certainty because you're always gonna have like skeptical scenarios but i believe you could show it's highly probable because we have early manuscripts and whatnot so i think it's highly probable that it's okay but i'm not talking about early manuscripts early manuscripts would mean that we uh that it is identical to certain manuscripts that we have but you do believe that the Quran was only compiled into a book after Muhammad's death right yeah into a complete most half after his death yeah but just not by very long yeah but okay so so the question would be then again um i could rephrase it i guess to make it more um more precise can you be confident that the Quran that you have in your hand today is exactly the same Quran that Muhammad revealed through his mouth to his companions surrounding him yeah i mean we have reports of scribes writing it down and uh the reports about them collecting it they would collect like pieces of these written down uh revelations and connect them together to make the text so why would i think otherwise i mean you'd have to provide a reason to think otherwise it's it's otherwise it's just like a scenario this seems possible so so and so but you'd have to give reasons to think otherwise we have early manuscripts so what you have is that you have reports that people noted things down and that they connected them and collected them as scribes that would write it as it was coming to them okay okay so i want to ask you again are you confident that the Quran that we have today that you have today is the same Quran that Muhammad was dictating to his people in his own time yes i have no reason to think otherwise i've reason to think so because we have scribes that would write it down and that's how it's compiled so you are confident in that yes yes yes and uh what is the probability what how do you think how high is the probability of that being the case well i don't think you could give numerical values but i just think it's high okay and it's high because uh of a few things which are that you have reports or all transmissions that people surrounding him were actually taking notes while he was revealing things that seems to me to be a um a very weak way of verifying that's the Quran that we have today is actually identical i would say uh the reasonable response to this would be no you cannot be confident well the text as a whole is mass transmitted the text as a whole is mass transmitted amongst the people so i don't know how that would be an argument like how just one or two people change it you have this mass transmitted text and then it's collected and then you have all those manuscripts so that's where does the skepticism come in that's what you say today what you actually have in terms of mass transition is you have reports uh which come from um much later that certain people who were companions of Muhammad immediately after his death or a while after his death came together and decided to go around and to collect all the the written notes and the verbal reports of whatever Muhammad transmitted we don't actually know the contents of of those revelations but what we have is that they noted those things down and these guys went around and collected those notes and compiled it into the book named the Quran this is the report that we have we do not actually know uh about the contents and whether the contents were accurately uh the only sense in which you could say we don't know is because we weren't like literally there listening or something but by that same token like you could doubt like Aristotle's work or something because maybe it was written a long time ago but but that's silly historians accept it as being that and I've given I you've been given no reason to doubt it this is just like this is possible I'm confident that we uh that we have accurate uh that we have accurate reports of everything that uh Socrates said for example of literally everything he said I don't I don't think so that's not what I claimed but like Aristotle's works we have uh good reasons to believe that he's that he wrote them okay but in Socrates case it's different right so uh Plato I'm sorry we're we're getting into something that people who don't care about that stuff might be that familiar with but uh so we have we have reports of uh things that he supposedly said and we thereby rely on uh what Socrates actually thought and said so uh we have reports from uh second from a secondary person about the things that Socrates said we have no doubt to we have no reason to doubt the things that he said because we have a secondary person who wrote down the things that he said yeah much of our knowledge is testimonial does that mean that we are confident that Socrates actually said all those things well I don't know about the case of Socrates that's why I gave the example of Aristotle we have like historians that confirm this work and we have lots of manuscripts and we have good reasons to think it's from Aristotle well that's because that's because we actually have written stuff from Aristotle what do we have I don't think we have original copies okay okay we don't have original copies in the in the case of the Quran we don't actually have the details of the text written down we only have people saying this is what he said to these and these people and we collected this from these and these people and brought it together and form it into the Quran we don't actually have a manuscript of the Quran itself from Muhammad's time that he wrote down or that somebody next to him wrote down and complete we only have but we literally have like seven we literally have like seven century manuscripts like it what you're saying seems to amount to some guy might have snuck in did this and that and but we have all these manuscripts that just compile and match together so I'm just not sure you'd have to I mean bring me some reason otherwise it seems there is no reason being given here but just some kind of skeptical scenario like this is possible might have happened we don't really know I wasn't there I didn't hear it something like that that's not interesting I mean if it if it doesn't if it doesn't do anything to your skepticism to understand that we don't have any proof that we can not prove that the Quran that we have today is really the same Quran that Muhammad presented to his people that he dictated to his people surrounding him and and if that's simply something that you rely on because you trusted the people who transmitted this in his name because they were believers of his I don't know what else to tell you but to then say that this is that the text is miraculous and that Muhammad brought such a miraculous text and how could he have he was just some guy I don't think that's a very strong argument because we first have to establish that he actually brought those things as they are well I mean even contemporary historians like the ones that don't accept this would tell you it goes back to its pwn of readers like it goes back to in the Mastroids reading it goes back to the time of the companions it they won't even if they might not want to say it goes back to him specifically it's like within that specific time frame so and so we have very good reason to think that there wasn't like additions later on and we have all these early manuscripts so again I'm just not seeing where this skepticism comes in from well that's that's the thing that's the thing we can't actually say that that it goes back to him which is why uh which is why the argument doesn't work it has a shaky foundation you might say there is a high probability but that's that doesn't really solidify the argument that doesn't sound like shaky I mean you could say anything it's uh we can't exactly be 100% sure I can't be 100% sure that there's this Cartesian that there isn't some Cartesian demon feeding everything into me I can't be sure that you're real for example none of that stuff there might be some demon feeding that into my brain but that's not interesting it's just a skeptical possible scenario I don't think that's something interesting that's actually that's actually a very good topic that you just opened up um I mean I guess I could say that the the first proof that you gave to me is uh is very weak in my opinion and the rest would be up to the public to you it's very strong but I presented things such as that Muhammad clearly said according to these reports that jins come out at night and snatch your belongings and snatch the children which is why you should keep your utensils covered and your doors closed into your children hidden that he said these things do you think that that that was accurate of the real world it genuinely could have just been a common occurrence in his time it might be a less common later on it could I mean there's tons of potential explanations you could give for that I don't see why it would be particularly uh improbable but it seems improbable because you're working from a framework that already denies their existence but I'm not working from that framework already so I'm sorry I'm denying their existence because I don't have any reason to believe in their existence because and I have reason to believe in them given my okay okay but the reason I gave was very clear right you are telling me that jins coming out in the evening and snatching people's belongings and children and this and that might be something that was only occurring in his time I don't have any no I'm not saying it might have been a high frequency thing at that time which is why he warned against it for his people I don't think it's um particularly the impossible that it still happens or anything like that but it seems like you're saying we don't have observational data so it doesn't happen but that doesn't follow do you not think that if such a thing was actually true if that was a an accurate description of the real world that jins come out at a specific night in the evening and go around stealing people's belongings and so on that this would be something that would be traceable today that it would somewhere appear on some camera so there would be you know reports of stuff like this happening do you not think that would be the case okay so first thing as I've mentioned you could have this as a high frequency thing in his time whereas it's not in other times and second thing you have it's very common to claim that supernatural things occur that's that's very common in our contemporary discourse amongst just the general public that supernatural things occur whether those are true whether those are not it's part of part of the common culture I guess to talk of these things so I don't think it's extremely improbable that some supernatural things occur at least in contemporary times I want to ask you the question again though if such a thing happened if this was a regular thing that jins come out at night and snatch people's things which is why Muhammad wants them to cover up their utensils and to close their doors would we not have some camera footage of this movie so then you could just morey and shift it you could just morey and shift it if it was a regular thing occurring in our time then we'd expect it so it's not a regular thing occurring in our time and I can just morey and shift it from my position and say it's not regular in our time I think that's a very big misrepresentation it's something that does not at all happen in our time because we don't have any singular but okay see now now you've made a claim wait one second now you've made a claim that just goes way above your pay grade could you prove that it never occurs you know I'm just appealing to some uh abductive reasoning here I guess and I'm going for the best explanation considering that in the if this was a um a regular occurrence or if this was an occurrence at all we would expect uh reasonably that we have footage of this or that things actually disappear without any explanation at all but we don't have a single instance of such things no all the camera footage all the abductive evidence would get you is uh to our time and what happens in our contemporary times it wouldn't get you too much else especially with the observational data you have uh the restricted observational data you in particular have particular have so I don't think that would get you um to many fascinating conclusions but anyways I would reject that and I would just more in shift and say I have good reasons to think it did happen at one point at least then I have a final question about that do you believe that in Muhammad's time jins were actually going around and snatching things I'll give you a chance to respond reform Salafi sorry what was that I was going to say I'll give you I you answered it quickly I was going to say I'd give you a chance to respond and then we got to move into the qna okay yeah I do you do I guess we can I have like technically 12 more minutes if that's okay 12 more minutes for what yeah is that fine we have a qna yeah yeah for the qna I mean or 15 I guess if that's fine well I'm not sure what you're asking what can you start from the beginning of your question I mean like I have like 15 more minutes and then you have to go yeah oh we finished the discussion right so we can move into the Q and I can just jump into qna right away I thought the discussion was over otherwise is it over or not it is that's how much oh yeah that's what that's what I'm trying to say so we can like move into the qna you got it so a super abbreviated qna we're gonna move through these fast folks and then if you guys can do me a favor help me out just by trying to as best as you can keep your responses as pithy as possible stop scamming man says surah unis 1088 through 89 moses praise for pharaoh and his followers hearts to harden against belief and god obliges why a perfect god in profit do this so could you um could you repeat that I didn't exactly hear so they're saying from according to the surah 1088 through 89 moses praise for pharaoh and his followers hearts to harden against belief namely that he moses praise that pharaoh and pharaoh's followers will have hardened hearts and then it says if god obliges why did a perfect god in profit do this do what exactly is he saying that god prayed for something that's why they're saying I guess why would he harden their hearts both why would god harden the hearts and why would moses like ask for that oh okay I'm sorry yeah I didn't understand that at first yeah I think god can harden people's hearts when they um choose to do things that lead up to or make it such that they've already chosen a specific path so he just puts them on that path further I don't think that goes against perfection in any way at least it's not clear to me that it does it's kind of you got it and this one coming in from stop scanning man says why is it that on the one hand an angel attack Muhammad for not being able to read and on the other Muhammad never bothered to learn how is that exactly a question or an argument I mean why did he not bother to learn maybe he didn't have the proper resources maybe he didn't need to I mean why would he need to I don't see how that's an argument or like a very interesting question no problem and Ozzy and talk says I'm no Bayesian professional but if I compare all proven supernatural claims versus proven natural claims I'm justified in believing all supernatural claims are false I am not skeptical about supernatural it seems like what he's saying is if he brought um every particular like example something occurring and gave it a supernatural natural then the natural win I generally agree with that the natural explanations generally win but then I think uh within our background knowledge because we have stuff about God and whatnot we have reasons to think there's already supernatural and so some supernatural explanations succeed so you got it and thanks for your question this one coming in from Oflanio says assuming Muhammad and ibn Abdullah was the last prophet for Yahweh is it possible in an Islamic world view for me to be a prophet for Eris and that's spelled E-R-I-S no no I mean if anyone agrees these questions are just kind of strange no you got to be honest I have to say um Islam doesn't even recognize Yahweh the Islamic God's name is not Yahweh which is very strange I mean it doesn't recognize Eris I at the very least you could anyone could acknowledge that so I don't see how this question it should be Yahweh though so whatever this is what this is what from ultra says G fire block I don't know what that means does anybody this one coming in from asri schizophrenia says reform Salafi how could Muhammad possibly be a prophet when he doesn't remember and recite the words of God to the people well he's a human I think he can forget things just like other people that's just normal emphasizes that he's just a man you know he's given this revelation but at the end of the day he's just a man like pretty much everybody else but he's given prophethood and that's the relevant distinction between him and others so I don't see why that negates some some fallibility in him in terms of forgetting things that doesn't seem out of the question that's the thing why would I trust a flawed being telling me that I should do it this and this and this and because we can trust that God would make sure that at least the revelation is in place and that it's correct of course but I have to trust him first in order to trust that Allah will take care of that issue I would rather trust an infallible being that these things directly no well any reason to believe in religion would be a reason to believe that God is guiding him and so if you believe in that then you believe that he's a prophet the trust comes from those reasons okay but in order to trust that I have to trust him first so that's that just doesn't make sense I have to start with trusting him in order to trust that religion and then trust that trust but that trust is partially based on already that those reasons for believing God exists and those reasons for thinking he's chosen by God so it doesn't start with him it starts according to you that's what you think but go ahead this one coming in from Sam Aras 008 says also the Muhammad Hadeeth that him and end of time come together and joined his two fingers he said I end the day of judgment are like this he also said Jesus will come very soon but he's about to come and so on what do you think okay well here's the thing when the Quran talks about time um the experience of time with God it talks about it as being a short time it's like a long time and so I'm not sure why this would indicate anything uh any fascinating conclusion I think that there could still be a large time span in between him because what we know at the very least is that he wasn't an apocalyptic prophet or at least that'll be my claim because he's very explicit about the fact that he doesn't know when it'll occur just that there's these signs and then like they're building up towards it I think this was it was pretty clear that his point was that he is an apocalyptic prophet and he said that the signs begin with his death and then a few few other things happen such as the conquest of Jerusalem and so on and then the end comes that we have Hadith on that I'll give you the last word here uh reform Salafi just because the question was originally for you then we'll go to the next one uh so what was that I'll give you the last word okay so um so could you repeat what you said I thought he had moved on just quickly could you uh what I said yeah you want me to that short-term memory I understand um or I can go to the next question if you want one second okay yeah if I remember I'll come back to that I said he was a he was an apocalyptic prophet oh okay said some things very clearly like yeah okay so he's the first sign I remember what you said now so what I was going to say is that him saying that he doesn't know when it's going to occur points towards him not being apocalyptic so that's just my view you got it and thanks very much for your question this one coming in from samaris 008 as well says quote the hour has drawn near and the moon was split unquote 54 one they say note split of the moon was supposed to be signed that the end is near and here are more and they list a number of about 10 more verses and they say and more I think that was for you reform Salafi what's the question now I think that they're trying to challenge whether or not the moon was in fact split or whether or not it was a sign of the end being near given that it was a quite a while ago that it according yeah we have a we have a report from the hadiths after Muhammad saying that the smoke the defeat of the Romans the splitting of the moon are a few things of the science of the day of judgment that already happened so people were expecting it to come soon and then there was but there was more signs that he predicted that hadn't happened at the time so that suggests that there's still time that's going to pass for more things to occur yeah but it looks like the message is that it's going to happen soon because these are the signs and people expected it back then that it's about to happen but because the signs are appearing well if we why would say we still have signs today like the one I gave which is something we had a bit of a back and forth over so I still think that there's signs going going on this one from Oflamio says apostate prophet back in those times Muhammad ibn Abdullah was the help prophets then serve the same purpose as psychotherapists today I think they're agreeing with you to some extent oh is it a question I'm not sure what I was surprised because it was the first thing addressing me yeah that's yeah sometimes they're objections without it being in the form of a question and I thought that it was an objection to you but then yeah I think I think I mean I think the point is very much people people didn't understand psychology at all they thought that people think with their hearts and feel with their hearts and all that they had no understanding of psychology and you know neuroscience and all that they didn't understand mental problems and their neurological problems so what they thought back then is that prophets are there to be the healers and the community not psychologists so you got it this one coming in from frodo says rs reform salafi many cultures such as Greeks and Egyptians already built tall buildings for centuries to show off is it miraculous if Muhammad says arab will one will do the same thing too yeah I think it's significant because we have like this competition going on between them and these are abnormally tall like we're trying to just reach newer newer heights each time and it's like an ongoing competition between them spending billions and billions to do these things so I think it's significant you got it and thanks for your question this one coming in from al uza akbar says splitting the moon would be an extinction level event why did the illiterate bedouin initiate an extinction level event as I mentioned I'm an occasionalist so I think everything is sustained moment after moment and so I don't think it's something extend that would cause an extinction it's just that's separate from everything else going on he's sustaining everything else and doing that at the same time I don't think it would cause an extinction if god didn't want it to this one from sam iris 008 again says what about the verses that got eaten by the goat which are in the authentic authentic hadith well I'm pretty sure those were abrogated verses but um yeah I don't think anything was lost given that I mean it's it's kind of curious because you're talking about these narrations by people who believed that it was preserved completely and these are the ones reporting it so obviously they didn't think that this was something about verses being completely lost this one from xx wlz xx says there are sahi hadiths that say that there are verses and chapters missing from the Quran not to mention the infamous donkey eating Quran hadith there is also the issue of halfs being a known liar and halfs they spell hafs okay so first thing about halfs being a liar I think there was only like one person who said that and pretty much almost everyone else said he was reliable in Quran but what what others did say was that uh we wouldn't take his hadith and so you have that and the other thing he said I would just say that's case of abrogation you got it this one from david says would reform salafi be open to debating orthodox christian cabane in parentheses seraphim hamilton on this question on this exact question yeah on um his uh orthodox beliefs probably not because I'm not familiar with them you got it and thank you very much for your question this one coming in from cj canton says ibrahim never existed and the god of his people was a pagan canaanite god el who had a wife ashara how can Muhammad be a prophet if he endorses this fake pagan story they say for reform salafi well i mean i'm going to reject that narrative and say you you muted yourself sorry uh did did you hear the first thing i said i was gonna say i would reject that narrative say he was a monotheist and what's the evidence for that i guess you got it and yeah cabane that like i remember now who cabane was that they asked you about he he reminds me you guys remind me of it each other even though you don't have the same views this one coming in from rijad hadzik says to a postate prophet just don't do it no no no no no no read it as it is please they say to apus why do you think it's likely that Arabs in barren desert at the time of the prophet whatever thing would ever think they could build the burj califa well first of all i would disagree that they think that they thought they could build the burj califa i think since you used apus i think this is an authorization to for me also to do the same i think um when when mopus said that the Arabs would compete in building um tall buildings it's a very vague statement he doesn't actually specify what tall buildings are everyone can say tall buildings what what exactly does that mean he doesn't see what the purpose behind saying that was though as i've maintained respect here so no i'm okay i'm talking about mohammed here so yeah obviously i know i know but you know if you have to respond in kind right you could respond it to him in kind of course i am so when mohammed says that they will be built tall buildings then he simply says they will build tall buildings he doesn't say the buildings will be as big as these and these mountains they will be so and so tall he doesn't give any descriptions he just says they will compete in building tall buildings this doesn't say anything tall buildings is entirely subjective so if you want to take that as an as a good argument or as a miracle that's up to you but i think it's extremely weak but what the guy's trying to say is that in the context of the life they lived building um extremely tall buildings uh would be something strange i think that's what he meant at least whether it's a good argument or not that's just how i interpreted what you can put things on top of each other and build taller buildings that doesn't mean that he's talking about skyscrapers a brick on top of a brick isn't a building though it is very much you can if you make a building that you have higher than it is then it's a tall building that doesn't mean it's a sky skyscraper i mean if you were to slack out of proper argument 20 bricks would that be a building no what i'm talking about is you can uh you can extend a building and make it taller by definition if you simply add to the building and you make it building a little bit taller than the regular buildings or if you make it like twice as tall as the regular building in your time that doesn't mean anything that's that's not comparable to the birch calif or to skyscrapers it's just a strange argument to make do you go to this one coming in from do you have time yet reform salafi i don't want you to be late for your next yeah well one more is fine this one from kg says salafi do you believe under any circumstance that apos let me know if this is a new word or if they just spelled it wrong apisa i think they mean apostates should be killed uh they say jizya and then they say restrictions on other creeds will you work toward that whether through mob or state tyranny that's what matters now wait what's the question i think they're saying do you support the punishment by death of apostates and then they say as well as restrictions on other creeds or religions and yes to both questions let's see i mean i'm not laughing at your position i'm just sure i understood it you said it's so cash you said it's so like directly uh you i think they said so i mean this is completely normal to people so okay so that you'd support it and that they said will you work towards that whether through mob or state tyranny so if if there is going to be that type of punishment do you think that it should be done through uh the state or through people like as the public if they want to do definitely not mob through the state and then established legal system gotcha and then if we okay folks we can't take any more new questions let's see we might have see actually hey rajad hadzik says to apostate prophet i'm sincerely i sincerely didn't mean to use that nickname that you don't you'll like sorry about that oh well i didn't expect that at all um thank you i appreciate uh that clarification and that response i don't mind it's just it's just uh receiving uh such hostilities from people it doesn't hurt me it just i just feel like people shouldn't think that they themselves are privileged in using such language and the other side cannot respond but if that was not if you feel sorry about that i appreciate that you got it and with that want to say thank you very much for your time folks thanks for your questions for the q and a most of all thanks to the speakers we really do appreciate them especially their patience they're a little like delayed started the beginning with that tech error on my my uh on my end so thank you guys reform salafi and apostate prophet it's been a true pleasure to have you guys with us thank you thank you so much thanks everyone my pleasure i'll be right back folks with updates on more upcoming debates that you don't want to miss hit that subscribe button if you haven't already and i'll be back in just a moment so stick around oh hey 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100 level namely to move to 68 700 and so thank you guys for your support as it's been just super encouraging like this is honestly i appreciate all of your guys's support it has meant more than you know as we are determined and enthusiastically passionately excited to carry out this vision of providing a neutral platform for everybody to make their case on a level playing field at modern day debate and we want to be youtube's premiere debate channel we want people to say oh hey you know if two people are feuding on twitter we i'm always encouraged that i see people say hey you should set you know modern day debate is a great place that you guys could finish your debate at because you know you started the debate on twitter you might want to go on to modern day debate and do it in you could say roughly speaking in person so that's one idea but want to say hello to you though in the old chat thanks for being so supportive abdule mo is bin muhammad why thanks for your support says wishing you and the team at modern day debate the best thanks so much that really does mean a lot i really do appreciate that and dan the man glad to have you here millahan philosophers corner says keep up the good work james thanks for that support and the algerian in fp glad you are with us thanks for dropping by be truthful thanks for being with us and thanks for being a member of the channel that's a way to support the channel we really do appreciate your guys's support in all the different ways that you give it and one way is yeah you can become a channel member that's a button down below too and good to see you kimba 94 we are glad that you are with us dale lee glad you are here fed in fed into glad to see you again lindsey marie thanks for being with us i see you there in the old live chat and the twitch chat forgive me twitch chat i am so behind i have not checked the twitch chat this whole time i had a little glitch at the start and so i just appreciate uh the speakers were so patient with us and let me check over on twitch and see is uh forgive me for being so behind and saying hello to you there in the old twitch chat if there's is anybody watching on twitch let me pull this up i've got a like my connection is a little bit slow let's see here it's connecting the chat there's four people watching in the old twitch chat so thanks for being with us those of you watching in twitch five now thanks for those of you watching at d live we are on a number of platforms including podcast if you didn't know folks our debates are uploaded to the podcast usually within 24 hours of the debate being live so i want to encourage you hey check those out and then i've got to tell you if you are like james i don't want this debate to stop this was just too fun please i like this is just i love these streams i've got to tell you you might enjoy this one as well i want to share this with you this debate just happened the other day it was between matt dillahunty and abdulla i'll undo and alusi now i'm going to share that in the old chat in case you want to keep watching this is a great debate to keep watching i just put that link for this debate in the chat if you haven't seen it i'm telling you guys like it is a great debate it was a real crowd pleaser and i linked that i basically threw that link in the chat and i also pinned that comment with that link in the top of the chat so that way if you want to watch that debate if you haven't already if you've been living in a cave on mars with your fingers in your ears and you have not yet seen that debate what are you waiting for you have to check that out that was a monster debate and yatar gammy thanks for coming by as well as veronica sand oval thanks for coming by we're glad you are here and yes thanks you you guys thanks for your uh xx wlz xx thanks for your support says notice me sensei thanks for being with us friends we're glad you are here and smith glad to have you here as well rick t thanks for dropping in and liz we hope you are doing well we're glad you're here liz my dear friends and yes i think it was veronica sand oval said what's the guy's name daniel haki kachu it is that is correct the spelling is with a q i think you got it right but it's just basically if you replace the k's that you had in the name there with q's i think that's basically the right spelling and he's he's got the channel the muslim the uh muslim skeptic youtube channel and so he's had some fantastic debates one of which was with destiny recently that was a monstrous debate we really enjoyed that and bang bang i see you there in the old live chat thanks for being with us sady marie jones glad to see you again and ko y x kitty 497 thanks for being with us as well as zang fukashang glad you are with us but yeah you guys thank you for your support if you haven't already smash crush destroy rule it with an iron fist hit that like button as that does boost the video in the algorithm we do appreciate your support and 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in a while and so you guys we're excited as we continue to have debates on science religion and politics and we guys we really do appreciate your your support seriously thank you guys especially it's been a i think i've said to some of you guys i've talked about it's been a hard few weeks i've just got a family the reason that my i'm at the public library right now for these streams is i'm in ashash wisconsin with family just because we've got kind of a family emergency that have been home for and so thank you guys for your support you guys have just been super supportive and i appreciate that more than you know as it's been a hard time for me personally it's going to be a challenge but believe me we're going to get through it my dear friends i appreciate your guys's love and support and i hope i can be there for you guys in your hard times as well and i'm serious about that that's why i've always said in the bottom of the description it says here's my email modern data beta gmail.com if you ever want to vent or talk about just having a hard time in life feel free i'm seriously whether you want prayer or a listening ear i do want to support you and be there for you as a friend and so no matter whether you be christian muslim atheist agnostic uh buddhist you name it we really do i want to support you and i think that's one of the more valuable lessons i've learned from this channel is that it's a beautiful thing when we can be friends when we are different views whether it be muslim atheist you name it christian agnostic across those boundaries and the reason is we do have these transcendent values that we believe here at modern day debate which is we want to make the world a better place which is why we enjoy doing those charity streams that we do and thanks for your support of those as we've given to a lot of great causes such as research for diabetes treatment for cancer treatment starving children around the world i thank you guys for your support of that we care about making the world a better place no matter what walk of life we're from that's something that transcends our groups that we all whether we be christian atheist muslim you name it we all care about those things as well as that we all want fairness no matter what culture we're from no matter what religion or lack of religion or whatever position politically left politically right black white gay straight uh trump supporter bidenbecker whatever it is we all want to have a neutral platform so that everybody can make their case on a level playing field and that is something we're united in and that's why i think modern day debate has been growing is because you guys have been so supportive of that vision and you guys have been helping push it along we appreciate that so much as we're excited about big things in the future that we're going to do an xx wlz xx says hey james you should host debates about extra sensory perception there are virtually no debates about this topic on the internet and it's about science i agree that is a fun topic i'd enjoy it i'd be willing to host it i don't know who like who has interest in those debates in terms of as debaters but i am open to it and so i appreciate that suggestion and it is an interesting and juicy topic and so seek the truth find it thanks for being here i see there in the old live chat and want to say we love you guys we appreciate you guys high commander i see there in the live chat thanks for being with us jacob daniel thanks for being with us steve jankins glad you are here with us as well and you guys thanks for your support we're excited about the future i love you guys and join us as we are just getting started in our story is just beginning here at modern day debate thank you guys and i look forward to seeing you at the next debate in fact we've got one this friday morning and then we've got this one coming up this saturday whether or not trans women should be able to participate in women's sports that's going to be showing on screen in just a moment you don't want to miss that that's with alex stein who's recently had a couple of viral videos on twitter and youtube he's going to be taking on brenton langel you don't want to miss it so we look forward to seeing you for these upcoming debates love you guys thanks for all of your guys's support