 Andy, great you can join us, thank you. It's absolutely a pleasure, it's nice to be here. Yes, we were just having a chat and it's always the way on the podcast. My guests are always so, you know, we share things in common, people that have done stuff in this life, I suppose, and out of that sharedness comes great, oh, there's my phone going off, sorry, out of that sharedness comes great conversation and sometimes I forget to push record on the podcast. I think I've lost all that, but that's gone from history now. So my gosh, we hooked up on LinkedIn. We did. And I'm very fortunate that I meet people through LinkedIn that have such rich histories and experiences as yours, Andy. Red Arrows, now a commercial airline pilot. Anyone who grew up of my era remembers watching Airplane, which was a spoof on all the Jumbo Jet movies of the 70s and early 80s. And obviously, I think pretty much most of us have been on a 747 or a... or a big aircraft. Yeah, yeah. And I have... I probably have a million questions just based on what I've just said, so... Fire away, Chris. Well, where do we start? How did you get into flying? Well, of course, that's a great question, isn't it? And one which I've been asked many times. It's something I wanted to do, you know, from a very young age. And as far back as I can remember, when I was at primary school, we went on a school trip. So I must have been about, I don't know, eight or nine, never been flying before, never been abroad before. I was brought up in North Wales and we went on a school trip to Liverpool Airport, Speak Airport as it was known then. And my class had a flight in a Viscount, which was a small airliner, propeller-driven aircraft. And we flew along the North Wales coast. And I just remember being totally fascinated by being able to look down and see areas that I knew from the air. It was just totally fascinating. And I think that so deceived in the mind of an eight-year-old boy. And from then on, I was hooked, really. And I, you know, joined the air cadets, which gave me a chance to actually fly and sort of engendered my interest in aviation throughout my time at school. And I was lucky enough to be selected by the Air Force. Well, I went for some tests at age 16 and then I was accepted at 17. So when I left school after my A-levels, I was lucky enough to join the Air Force and start pilot training. So that's it in a nutshell. It goes back to the age of eight. Most of my guests, including myself, not that I'm my guest, but including myself, we were all rejected by the RAF. So we joined the rest of the military. It's amazing all the SES guys I speak to all say, I tried to get in the RAF when I left school, but they wouldn't have me. Very high standards. Well, I think we're both friends with Tim Davies, aren't we? Yes. Yes. Very lovely, lovely man. We become friends through this podcast in business. Yeah. And yeah, following Tim, it really brings it home to you. The kind of attitudes that are in play in this arena. Yeah. Her talk of snobbery and this sort of thing. So how was it for you getting through the recruiting process? Into the Air Force. It was interesting because I think I look back on it now and I was pretty young and naive, I think, because I'd come from being, I suppose, a fairly big fish in a small pond, you know, in school and perhaps in the air cadets to being nothing. And I was very naive. But because I'd come straight from school, I think it was, I was still quite adaptable. I'd come into an institution, if you like, from one to the other. So although it was really a very steep learning curve at the beginning, the interview process and the first few months, I found it okay, hard work, but okay, because I think I was still adaptable. And as I say, you know, still naive at age, well, 17, 18. Yeah, I've seen comments online of some of the questions that people have been asked before they were rejected. And they're so subjective. Really difficult, yeah. You could really imagine that to that instructor, to that RAF guy in the recruiting office, this was like, you know, how many air shows have you been to? That was his way of marking it. Yeah, they look at, you know, they do look at that. Obviously they want you to be interested in aircraft and they'll ask you some specific things about the Air Force, how many squadrons it has, that sort of thing. But also current affairs, I think it was more of a, just getting a picture of the individual. So yes, you've got to be interested in aviation, obviously, but is he interested in anything else? And of course, one of the big things they talk about is team skills. And is this guy going to be part of, you know, is he going to be a good member of a team? And subsequently, you know, maybe a good leader. And so they really concentrate on remember this, because I used to play a lot of rugby being brought up in North Wales and they really, really pushed on the team stuff. Very interested in what you did at school as part of a team. And you know, I look back on that and actually it's true. Throughout my Air Force life on a squadron, you're part of a team, quite a small team. And even now, you know, the sort of flying I do on an airliner, you've got a small team, a cohesive team in the cockpit. So I look back and think, actually, that was a really relevant question. I guess it doesn't factor in, though, that you can have all four people in a team. That's very true. And you probably know that, you know, you get something like that. It really brings the team down, doesn't it? Yeah, I've got a, you've done, you do quite a bit of speaking, don't you? I do, yes. I use the red arrows as a template for team skills and excellence and also talk about leadership as well. So, and we can talk about it later if you like, but the red arrow selection procedure is quite interesting. And the idea, of course, is to try and weed out those people that we don't want who are going to bring the team down. Yes. The reason I mentioned is I've been asked to do a speech at the end of this month. And one of the subjects is teamwork, which I'm guessing for a lot of sort of people in the commercial sector is it's just a buzzword that probably isn't really well understood. Because there's so many different dynamics going on in a team, aren't there? And not all of them are very pleasant when you're in the military. Yeah, yeah. My experience was I took a team of people fundraising in Scandinavia when we were going to work in Africa. Yeah. So we were going to go and work in sub-Saharan Africa. I was going to Mozambique to become basically school teachers down there. And we had to fundraise money on the streets of Scandinavia by selling postcards. Might sound a bit bizarre, folks, but it's just what we did. And the way I saw the team, because I was so, the first day I did it, I almost took myself away and sat down and thought, I can't do this. When you approach 10 strangers and they all go like that and walk straight past you, it's a tough learning curve, right? And you've got to have your wits about you to be able to, you know, put this in frame and see that it's nothing to do with you, right? So when I sussed that, then I sussed a method that I could pretty much approach anyone and they couldn't leave me. They had to say something to me and I would quite cleverly give them four options, all of which meant either give me all the money or just give me at least a donation or you're going to look like a massive, you know what, right? So I'm using that system plus the fact that, like an oyster fisherman, you know, you've got to get 100 to get the one. You know, to get the pearl, you've got to open 100 oysters, right? So I just used that principle so I didn't take it personally. Got so good, they made me a team leader to take a team around Finland of all places. Wonderful country, hello, hello Finland. And what I realized is you get people that just pick the ball up and run with it, they're fine. If anything, they just need a bit of sort of guidance of not, not, not, not to go to, to, to bonsai. Yeah. Then you get the people that they're up for it. They just maybe not, their skills aren't quite good. So you need to put something in there. Then you get the people that they just feel they can't do it. And my idea is in that dynamic, they're the people that you need to spend your time with. Yeah. And what I did Andy is, is we had targets at the end of the day, every student had to hit, let's say 300 pounds worth of postcards selling. And so I got the team together and I'm right, we're a team, the true meaning of team is, we're putting all our money in the same pot. Right. And just so long as the people that are struggling, that, you know, that as long as you don't disappear and take yourself off to a, to a cafe, we'll divide that money at the end of the day. And just a simple thing like that gave everybody, you know, well, recognition. Yeah. For their efforts. Yeah. And it gave them a goal. So long as they stay here, Chris is going to split this money up and we're all going to go to Africa and. Yeah. Sorry, I've gone on a bit there. Because I was listening very carefully because you touched on a lot of the values that I talk about as well, you know, giving people a goal, making people feel inclusive. It's really important, isn't it? Give you a couple of them examples of some of the things I talk about. One of them is admitting your mistakes. And people are quite reluctant to do that, particularly in business. So when we land from a red arrows, practice or even a display, every display that we, that we do is videoed. It's filmed so that we can look at it and, you know, critique each other. But the first thing the leader does is stand up in front of the team and he admits the mistakes that he's just made. And that sends a powerful message, doesn't it? Well, two messages really one. It's okay to make mistakes. But more importantly, it's okay to talk about them. So, and that sends a message to the rest of the team. And then they're not afraid to say, yeah, I did this wrong. I did that wrong. And it's not all about what went wrong. I look at sort of a debrief like that, a team collective, whatever you want to call it, a wash up. You can say that went really well, guys. What did we do right this time to make it go so well? So I really concentrate on that. We call it the debrief in the military, don't we? But it's called many things. And a lot of businesses I talk to are really surprised. They don't have wash ups. They don't get together at the end of the week or every fortnight and talk about things. And I think it's a massively important thing to get together and discuss. It's the only way you can improve is talk about things that went well, things that didn't go well. And then, you know, come up with a plan, just like you did, to change things and make it better. Yeah, we're in funny times. I think we said this earlier. The way culture is certainly in commerce or in business is going. It's really not good. I mean, now it's become de rigueur to get hold of finally get hold of the person you've been trying to get hold of. For my recent case, it's been six months, right? Oh, yeah. Hi, Chris. Yeah, got your email, but your phone number was wrong. And you're like, oh, really? You know, that, that doesn't wash with people that have been in, you know, situations where your decision making is life and death. Yeah. And you've got, you've got to own it pretending that you didn't, you know, not replying to an email or then saying it's because someone's phone. It's, we've become that sort of culture, haven't we? We have. No, you're right. And it's a shame. And it's those people who've been able to adapt in these strange times. I think that we'll do well once it's all over. Yeah. Rewards bad personalities, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Very true. Gosh. I guess we should get back to, to, to flying. But thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I think that's what my speech worked out for the end of the month now. Talk about debriefing. Yes. I don't know where to begin. So when you, you went to the recruiting office, what, what position did, were you going for? And did you get your first sort of choice? Well, one of the things they ask you there is you, you apply as a pilot. And I remember this quite clearly. They said, well, what would you do if, if you failed, you know, would you accept position as a navigator or air traffic controller? And I didn't want that. I just wanted to be a pilot. So my answer was that if I didn't get in this time, I would try again. And if I didn't get in as a pilot in the Air Force, I'd go and try and be a pilot somewhere else. And I was really just totally fixated on that. And I remember thinking, I hadn't really got a plan B. I've got a few offers from university, but I didn't really know what I was going to do at university. I just wanted to fly. So I think, you know, you have to have that, that sort of burning desire to go and do something. And I remember I did, did have that as a very, a very young age. So an honesty question. Yeah. It was position as a pilot and that was it. It was to be all an end all for me. That's all I wanted to do. Wow. You sound like a man after my own, own heart. When I decide on something, it's like, no, it's that or nothing else. Yeah, absolutely. It's awful when I buy stuff because I just look at the best item. And it's usually ridiculously expensive. Yeah. If it's a pair of running shoes or something is like these Tesco turbos will do just as well. But I've got out of the 400 quid ones. Well, were you, had you your, your private license when you joined? Yes. Interestingly, through the air cadets, actually, I was given, they call it flying scholarship. So effectively they pay for a number of hours for you to do some private flying. And I managed to get my private pilot's license before I got my driving license. So I was 17, I think. And yeah, that was, that was, that was great. They sent me off to Lester Aero Club for the summer. And I did, I think it's about 40 hours flying. Of course, this was amazing for, for this young lad. And I, yeah, I carried on. I flew my friends and my family for quite a few years, really, just held my private pilot's license. And then it all became too difficult to try and keep that going as well as the Air Force flying. But yes, I did, I did get my private pilot's license. What's your opinion then of the FAA versus the CAA? So Civil Aviation Authority being the UK. Yes. FAA being America. The reason is because I got my license in America. I passed my test within, I think, three and a half weeks. That was learning every single day. I think, I think including Sundays, but it's still a very short time to be able and, and it's not. You don't sort of cut corners or anything. It's just, you get a lot more flying time in America because the weather windows are so predictable. Yes. I was in Florida. It's going to be brilliant sunshine all day long. Come five o'clock guaranteed. You get these massive cloud heads start, start building and then down comes the rain. Yeah. Whereas the UK, I understand the weather can, can really have an effect on how many hours flying, you know, how often you can get up and our airspace is a lot more crowded as well, isn't it? It is. And I think you hit the nail on the head there really because it is a smaller country. Obviously we have some pretty awful weather, don't we? And the airspace is quite tight. You know, we've got zones around all the major airports. We've got airways that crisscross the country. So in terms of rules and regulations, we have to be fairly, fairly strict, but it's the weather. I think that's the dictator there, Chris, as you said, you know, I've got friends and colleagues who've done military training in America and they fly every day in beautiful weather. And then they come back to the UK or to anywhere in Europe and they get quite surprised that, you know, it's really restrictive and it's hard work when the weather is bad. So I think the weather is the major difference between doing your license in the UK and perhaps in the States. Yeah. Do you think the standards are different? I mean, British not trying to sound like, you know, anglo-centric here or anything, but we do kind of do things. Kind of do things the proper way, don't we? It's just, I mean, for example, if you go to Thailand, it's not unusual you see five people on a motorbike. That's the whole family, including a baby under one arm and no helmets or anything. Maybe it's changed now. I was first in Thailand like 20-odd years ago, but I mean, that sort of stuff doesn't wash here, does it? No, no, you're absolutely right. You know, I think there's nothing wrong with doing your license in America, but I do think we're probably slightly more rule-bound here for a good reason. So it is slightly more difficult, more involved. But as I say, nothing wrong with an FAA license either. No, and the thing I like about my license is it's for life, whereas the UK one is own, is it for three years or something? Yes, and you have to, you know, do a certain amount of flying each year, which I'm sure you do in America as well, just to keep that license valid. Well, in America, you can let it go fallow, let's say 10 years. Yeah. And then you can rock up an airstrip, go into the flying school, they'll take you on a check test. As long as you can demonstrate, which I doubt you would after a 10-year layoff, but technically, as long as you can demonstrate, you can fly the aircraft safely and handle the radio procedure. Yeah. You're good to go again. Yes. I've been ticked off by air traffic control in America. On the one hand, it's really safe, Andy, isn't it? But on the other hand, it's bloody dangerous up there. Yeah. Yeah, they use aircraft in America because it's such a big country, like we use cars really in many ways. And there's so many little airfields around, which is great, but you can just hop in and fly around. And a lot of the time, it's free airspace. But if my airline are going into New York or Boston or similar like that, you'll have dozens of little airplanes underneath you flying around. So yeah, it's slightly freer, I would say, over there. Definitely. Definitely. When did you last fly? Is it fairly recently? No, I'm, I'm a bit of a bucket list person. Andy, right. And I don't mean that's no disrespect myself. I just, I want to do everything in this life. Right. Yeah. I don't necessarily have the money to follow it up. Yeah. So I wanted to travel the world. I wanted to, you know, I wanted to dive off the cliff and live in the Amazon jungle and catch piranhas. Like I read about in the books as a child, right? That's why I talk a lot about, about for our friends at home. It's why I'm always talking about read books, you know, in ritual life. Absolutely. I watched the film Point Break back in the, the original Point Break. I think it's back in the nineties. And when I saw what Skydiving was, you can just chuck a book out. And throw yourself out of a plane and then fall for over a minute before pulling your shoot. I want to do that. Right. This is just how my brain works. And I've also got this thing where I never say never, if I want to do something, I've never considered that I might not be able to do it for me. Yeah. Always a challenge waiting to happen. Right. I agree with that. My two, the only two sort of, I've had to extend my bucket list now because I meet such amazing people. So I chatted to Nim's Die, the Gurkha stroke SBS legend the other day who climbed all 14 of the world's highest peaks. Wow. Under six months, breaking, taking seven years off the record. And I've had to extend my bucket list now because I meet such amazing people. And I think I've had to extend my bucket list now because I have done some great reviews of that, breaking, taking seven years off the record. And I'd love to climb Everest. I've got all the books on my shelf here. Me too. Me too. And I'd like to. Ski to the South Pole. I'd like to do more than that actually, but I got it. Got to have some acknowledgement of your limitations. Yeah, and I think as a kid who didn't look up in the sky at an airplane and think I Wonder what it's like to fly that At least I did maybe that's not normal, but I just thought God wouldn't that be great? and for some reason No, I tell you what it was When I did my first skydive which was in New Zealand place called Lake Taupo It was the first part I should say of the AFF advanced free for course So I did my very first part in New Zealand and the one of the girls that was on the plane with me We got chatting And she was a pilot she was English and she was a pilot and I'm just Talk to me. Tell me everything. Yeah, I want to know This just what I'm like, you know, I want to know everything that wasn't taken off is it scary landing? how do you work the radio what and and That just kind of rekindled that thought that I had as a kid That what's it like to fly a plane and then at the next sort of when the opportunity arose I had a few quid in the bank To bought myself an aircraft magazine Looked at the back the advertising pages in the back and there was a flight school price looked okay. It was in Florida That was it so don't do it. So sorry a bit long-winded again, but to answer your question Andy It was I I did it. I think in 2005 Okay, and I'm just more than happy to You know, if I get a bit of money in the bank in the future. I'll Undoubtedly go and do it again Yeah, but I'm I'm just absolutely Privileged to be to have my little experience of the Education community. It does get into your blood. That's for sure. I mean, it's been my my life And I've had a flying license for over 40 years now Chris. I know I know I don't look that old but I have And No 40 years and you think wow, you know military commercial Yeah, so it does get into your blood and it's something that You know, it's made me who I am. Give me what I've got. It's it's been fantastic really Let's get into the nitty gritty then because What what what was your first apparatus in the RAF then is that the right word or am I just making that up? Sounds like a chemistry experiment doesn't it, but I know what you mean It's I should say it's that You know that film catch me if you can with Leonardo da Caprio He pretends to be an airline pilot and flies around the country as a pretend pilot Yeah, and he learns that one of the things the pilot says What what apparatus are you on and it means what are you flying? Well first apparatus was the well after flying training I didn't flying training on Jet provost, which is no longer in service and a lovely airplane called the Hawk Which is the aircraft the Red Arrows flies great little airplane And those are the two sort of training aircraft and from there you go to the to the front line of my front line airplane was an airplane called the lightning which is an amazing amazing piece of Engineering was designed and built in the in the fifties the late fifties And it surf about 30 years it came out of service in 1988 So I was lucky to fly it in the latter stages of its life really, but this thing was a single-seat fighter His job was to intercept intruding aircraft anybody Intruding into UK airspace didn't have a great range really in terms of how long it could fly But it was phenomenally fast and very very powerful. It could fly in excess of 50,000 feet twice the speed of sound Just had one seat. It was just me sat there in this monster of an airplane So I was really privileged to to flown the lightning. It was just a fantastic experience hard work You've got a little radar that you have to operate as well as fly the airplane at the same time To get you behind the enemy aircraft and then you would in theory shoot your missile or your gun if it came to that but Luckily, you know, I never had to so I flew flew the thing for four years. It was phenomenal really really good Experience so yeah, that was my first apparatus the the lightning Just our word now I Was that was that a jet or was that a propeller? Yeah, it's it's a jet So it's quite an unusual looking airplane. It has two big jet engines, but one on top of the other So not not on the wings So they're effectively sitting on the on top of these two big Rolls-Royce engines with very highly swept wings I don't know if you can see behind me. Actually, there's a picture of my wall Um Just over my right shoulder. That's um, that's a lightning there It's probably a little bit too far away for you to see but um, yeah, it was just an incredible airplane And as I say it's quite iconic really so it was a real privilege I look back on it now at what a privilege it was to have flown it. It's fantastic. Are they still in service now? I went out of service quite a while ago Late 80s and it was replaced by the tornado and subsequently by the typhoon so the typhoon now Is the equivalent of the lightning in the early 80s? But similar performance technology obviously moved on a lot, but performance wise it was a great airplane So was was that a bomber then? No, it was I suppose you describe it as an air defense fighter So it didn't carry bombs it carried missiles and guns to shoot down other aircraft Um, we left the bombing to to other aircraft types like the Harrier the Jaguar They would do the the bombing and we'd go and shoot down. We were their top cover effectively Because that's the the mistake a lot of people make when I spoke to Tim He enlightened me to the fact that a tornado Or at least in that role isn't a fighter jet. It's yeah Um, it's quite surprising. Yeah. Yeah when you think back to the um the Gulf War stories Was it John? John and John who got shot down? He was John's absolutely yeah And and obviously they became quite vulnerable, you know, they're in they're in a bomber rather than a fighter So they are quite vulnerable when they're doing their their bombing run Um quite um, yeah quite vulnerable to attack And what did you move on to from from then? Well from the lightning I did um I don't know how it works in the army and the marines and so on but we tend to do tours of about four years three or four years So I did four years on the lightning and then Um, I'm sorry. There's my phone's going off now I moved to become a flying instructor Uh on the hawk uh at a place called Aria Valley in Englesey. So It was the hawk that the red arrows The aircraft the red arrows fly. So I was teaching student pilots now who are coming through the system I've just done it myself. So it's gone full circle And it was something I didn't want to do to start with I wanted to stay flying the lightning. They said now your time's come. You've got to go and be an instructor But I I think it probably did me the world of good It was um, the flying was was great I had to be able to do the flying to be able to to teach it and it gave me a qualification And I think it made me Far more self-critical than I had been Um because you had to demonstrate something to the student in order for him to be able to To copy you and to do it So it was good flying. I met loads of guys going through the courses and made lots of lots of friends um And I did that for four years and it was that really that led me On to um onto my next job, which was which the red arrows. It was um The introduction through flying the hawk at valley going to various air shows meeting the red arrows and I thought Perhaps this is something that I actually could do Um, and in terms of experience, I'm kind of in that bracket now So so it was a really good job. I did go instructing in the end Because we're a good step Red arrows is kind of the cream of the cream for an rf Fast jet pilot. Is it not well? It is. I think it's um, it's something that I would say most people would love to do Not everybody. It's not everybody's cup of tea But yeah, I think it's something that if you asked any Fast jet pilot in the raf would they like to join the red arrows? I'm sure the answer would be yes Uh, it certainly was the pinnacle of my flying as the best flying I've ever done um And um, yeah, we can talk a little bit more about it really but it was yeah, it was a phenomenal three years How is it fitting into such a? a tight a small tight-knit Professional community who have a lot of tradition and and and also You know they want things to be To be right. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about the selection if you like Chris because people do find that quite quite interesting So for every every year the team of nine pilots they change three So it's a third of the team change every year And for those three places we probably get about 50 or 60 applicants For people who are eligible. In other words, they've got the required background and experience um They've got good write-ups from their current boss Um, and they're in a position where they're they're able to go So there are three three criteria there really and then out of those 50 or 60 Pilots the team themselves and nine guys will sit around A room and discuss them and they'll whittle that that list down to nine And the reason it's nine is because we can invite invite them over and they can all fly in the back seats Um, and over the period of a week, they'll go through a formal interview A flying test Um, but most importantly and I think you'll appreciate this You're getting to know the individuals So during that week you'll chat to them in the crew room We'll go down the pub and have a few beers And you get to see what they're like as an individual and whether they're going to fit into your team So you've then got some indicators. You've got your results of your flying test Um, you've got the results of the formal interview, but most importantly are they going to fit in as part of the team They'll fly in the back seats so they can see what it's like to be a member of the red arrows And then at the end of the week we'll all sit back down again together and from that that list of nine We'll come up with with three and it's often really close by virtually the fact they're there They could probably all do the job Um, so it's a really difficult choice and sometimes it comes down to a vote But that's how it works. So we're effectively picking who we're going to be working with for the next few years And um, it's worked well over Over 50 years now the red arrows have been going and it's and it's generally worked well Really well, so i'm guessing a lot of big part of that selection is the bit in the pub Definitely definitely because you want somebody who's going to put the needs of the team Head of the needs of themselves. I'll give you an example. So at the end of a a long day You've done two or three flights. You're really tired. All you want to do is go to the pub and have a beer and um You know somebody says we've got to go meet the mayor or sign some brochures for somebody and you want somebody who's going to be quite happy to do that rather than than have a moan and and disappear off so So there is you know, there are lots of things that that happen outside the flying And we need sort of people who are going to going to join in and are not going to be bothered by that sort of thing And they're Really well received the red arrows aren't they wherever they go? I've seen them from my house window here just flying out over the Over the sea. Yeah I've been driving to air shows and they've flown past and it's Stop the car. There's the red arrows I think it's part of british culture now. Isn't it a bit like concord was or You know, it's it's part of our heritage now and I think Well, we do when we're flying around the uk and all abroad. We're effectively selling uk plc So yes, we're representing the we're representing the raf. We're representing the armed forces But we're also representing something that I think is truly iconically british, don't you? It must be a bit nice everywhere you go. You are Stealing the show aren't you? Well, I like the things though It's quite interesting when you go and and there's perhaps one of the american teams or one of the european teams So there's always a little bit of friendly competition And you're looking at each other to see if you can perhaps pinch any maneuvers that they do So it's a healthy competition, but um Yeah, we do pride ourselves. I suppose on on striving for excellence every time Hmm and any Well, I was gonna say any near misses, but I mean you've you've had fatalities in in the red arrows, haven't you? Yeah, they've been you know If you put yourself in an airplane and turn it upside down close to the ground with nine other aircraft It's it's you know, it's dangerous business and we try to mitigate that by Training obviously six months of the year is spent training and I'm sure in your in your jobs in the military It's all training, isn't it? But of course, it's still a dangerous job and um for various factors, whether it's human error mechanical error weather Um things are going to happen. So over the period of 50 odd years. There have been a few accidents When you consider what we're doing, it's actually relatively few relatively few um And certainly during my three years we we were lucky enough not to have any um But you know in any walk of life chris, I think this is it's going to happen the only way to Not to have that happen to you would be to sit at home, wouldn't it wrap yourself in cotton wool? Which I know you and I and we're not we're not going to do that Well, it's undoubtedly, you know, if you're going to go go Go in a red Going to check out of this world. It's not a bad way to go. Is it doing something you love? Yes The the thing that's coming into my mind though is I've seen um When you get the desire when you get the fatality, but it's a disaster an air show and Um, I don't know if that's happened to the red arrows, but There's certainly it you're probably familiar with this in the states. You get these Sometimes quite aging aircraft. Yes. They're hugely kind of Customized so they're all upgraded But then you get one rivet that's still from like 1955 Yeah, that rivets going like this over, you know, the best part of 50 50 60 years And when it goes and that aircraft You know comes down on the crowd or whatever it's yeah They've mitigated over the years. I mean there have been accidents where um, you know people in the crowd have sadly been being killed and um The way they've mitigated it now is to stop any sort of crossing maneuvers Towards the crowd so any velocity vector towards the crowd has been stopped so it's I think it's as safe as it's going to be now. Um You know people love going to see airplanes air shows the noise the smell of the jet engines I don't think we're going to stop air shows at all Um, and we've just got to make it as safe as we can So when you're out on the town then and you're trying to um, let's say a track Members of the opposite or members of the same sex, you know, whatever your thing is Do you say that you're a red arrow pilot or do you say you're you're a Royal Marine? Of course, I say a Royal Marine obviously I knew it I think we're both too modest. Don't we we could say I say I'm in aluminium tubing or something like that, you know Is that a thing though in in the Marines guys? I don't know why but guys have got and they would say they're brickies Yeah, I don't know. I'd never go out and say I'm a red arrows pilot no what's um What's the kind of silliest thing that? A Civilian's ever said to you they've got some sort of preconceived ideas or there's always the usual questions on you know And kids always ask, you know, have you ever been in a crash? They always ask you that have you ever had a crash? It's something that kids really love because I do talks to schools and things It's you know, how fast does it go? How high does it go and have you ever had a crash? But um, I was as you do when you do talk, I always invite questions at the end Uh, and people honestly come up with some brilliant questions Questions that I've I love answering questions because hopefully I know a little bit more about it than they do But sometimes I come up with great questions. Um, and I love that bit interacting with them With the public uh, particularly after a talk. Um It's great really really good When people ask me question, I think What they asking me for Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to know aren't I? Got that imposter syndrome thing In there It is fun. You know, I guess there is a little bit of that, but um, there is always an answer in there, isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Seven four sevens in that's That's something else again because When you leave the royal air force Uh, you technically you're not a commercial pilot. Are you you're a military pilot? Yeah with a private pilot's license I don't know. What do they do? They add the jet function to the No, it's um, it's quite a lengthy lengthy process chris actually so yeah, you're absolutely right So my experience was all fast yet lightning's hawks, which has got nothing to do with flying seven four seven so What you have to do is upgrade that PPL that private pilot's license into what's called an ATPL Which you've probably heard of airline transport pilot's license So it involves a load of exams aerodynamics, electrics, all the usual stuff Um, and I had to do an instrument rating as well on a small twin engine aeroplane called an aztec It's just a light aeroplane effectively, but I've never flown one before so this was quite difficult and then with that license And your background you have to have the license really before applying to any airline So once you've got that license You can then go out and look for jobs and I left the air force in 1998 It's a difficult decision, you know, because I really enjoyed it But I think had I stayed on and made a career of it, you spend less and less time flying And more time sat behind a desk. It's the same in the marines, isn't it? If you stay in That's what tends to happen. It's less front line. It's more office And I just didn't fancy that so Quite a few of my friends had joined the airlines and I thought It sounds pretty good. Obviously the flying is not going to be quite as exciting But certainly as a lifestyle, great And I still get to fly So, um, so I wrote to to British Airways, Virgin, all the big airlines in the sort of late 80s And I was lucky enough to be accepted by while I was accepted by by both and I picked BA and joined BA in the 1998 So with my little airline transport pilots license So I went from a hawk Through the Aztec doing my instrument rating to the 747, which was quite a big step My gosh And BA and Virgin were quite rivals back in the day, weren't they? They were Well, I suppose they still are in a way, you know, competing for transatlantic routes and things so Competition's good though, isn't it? Yeah, I think it might have been Richard Branson's biography that I read That the chairman of BA Said I'll never enter negotiation with anyone that doesn't wear a tie And of course Richard Branson's response as well you should have done Yeah, fierce rivals I think for years Yes, yes I'm just uh Yeah, I'm not too happy with Mr. Branson at the minute he's um his healthcare companies have been going into primary schools. Um That's a whole other thing again, but I think a lot of people know know what I'm on about Um Andy, yeah Amazing. I'm the guy when I'm sat on the um When I'm on an international flight I'm hoping that the stewardess is going to say can anyone fly a plane and I'll get my five minutes of fame Crash crashing it into the ground But um, yeah, I just find the whole thing Yeah fascinating. It's a shame, isn't it because You know the last six months or so has really devastated the the industry particularly the The airline industry flying passengers around people are not they're not flying and so You know hundreds of my colleagues worldwide have been grounded They've lost their jobs. It's a really tough time for the aviation industry um So much so that um, I've I've moved on actually I'm still flying seven four sevens chris But I'm now working for a cargo company. I'm the chief pilot for a company called long tail aviation um because there's a huge demand for for for cargo passenger planes fly passengers obviously but in the hold There are tons of cargo now with those aircraft on the ground effectively not flying that cargo still needs to be moved around um, and so I saw the writing on the wall in the summer and I I took the hopefully sensible decision to to move on and and so I'm still very busy, but I I do really feel for um for the avian for the industry as a whole it's it's been Decimated the last six months. Yeah, very very old Friend of mine collette. Hello. If you if you ever get to watch this she was with virgin for best part well, I bet I better not say how many how many years but you know since school basically she's she's um been uh What's the right terminology these days that we used to say hostess and you don't say that anymore. Do you have been crew student? I'm sorry. Apologies everybody. It's That's not me being um um inappropriate. It's my brain doesn't work sometimes Cabin crew is good cabin crew. Yeah, so she was cabin crew and absolutely loved it. Yeah Loved it and to see that that um, you know, all these Folks are getting laid off. Yeah, it's really sad really sad Yes so How is it then? How's it flying? I mean, it's a totally different experience from what you're used to it really is Chris it really is um I remember the first time I was shown into the the cockpit of one and of course you've seen it. It's just Buttons and switches everywhere. You just think how on earth am I going to know what they do? But of course you do you learn You go into the simulator again and again and practice checks and emergencies and it's all Very procedurally driven. It's very very good Standard operating procedures, which I'm sure you've heard of in in marines. It's the same, you know, we Do it all the time But as an airplane, it's fantastic the 747 I think is the last airplane that certainly bowing through money app when they built it. So it's solid It's got a lot of redundancy built in um For the cabin crew the galleys the kitchens are big purpose built And the cockpit is actually quite small, although it's really it's really cozy in there. It does the job It's a great airplane. It's really it's a thrill to fly it I still when I walk around doing the external check we have a walk around outside You still look up and in awe and think wow, this is a big machine Yeah, I'm glad you said that you still appreciate the the majesty in it. Yeah, definitely It's funny though. When you look into an airline cockpit Airline cockpit airliners cockpit. Yeah. Yeah, it it's still very Some of them are quite antiquated aren't they it almost looks like a blooming dentist chair in there or something tiny and there's You kind of have this image that you're going to look in there's going to be some sort of like palatial couch and And the lever lever cloud steering Steering column or whatever and it but it's very it's almost sort of vintage is maybe the word. Yeah There's the 747 certainly is 80s technology. So you'd It does look old now compared to some of the more modern bowings and air buses, but it's still a thrill to fly. It's an iconic airplane certainly some of the bigger airlines have decided to ground them for for Cost reasons really. I mean, it's an expensive airplane to run and I think with the passenger numbers as low as they are It makes a lot of sense But for me, I'm still lucky enough to be able to hop into one every every so often with the cargo Um, and it is it's it's it's a great airplane. It really is Yeah, so there's three leaps there that when you're a fast jet pilot it you You're on the money, aren't you? You know, you're on the literally on the controls And but when you go to an airliner, it's more systems based, isn't it? You're pushing buttons to control systems which ultimately fly the plane, but you've always got the the option to Take control in an emergency, right? Yeah, so we always do the the takeoff is always hand flown Either the captain or the first officer usually take it in turns Um, and I would say 99% of the landings as well because we need the practice so we take the You take off that five minutes into the flight you put the autopilot in Because the autopilot flies the airplane really accurately Um, and it's tiring, you know, if you're going to go across the Atlantic You don't want to be sat there like this for for seven hours. So it flies it very accurately for you A new just input as you said, you know on the on the control panel Or through the flight management computer you make some changes So it will fly you there and then on the approach into landing into new york or boston or wherever you're going You take the autopilot out and you do do the landing The only time we wouldn't do that is if it's really foggy And the aircraft can land itself in in fog, which is nice to know But um, that's the only time we would let the airplane land itself Other than that we always do the landing Your heart must be a bit Like that in fog then thingy Well, do you know why it's It's really strange putting your faith in the airplane and you can't see you literally can't see anything Until you feel the wheels touch down and then you start to see the runway lights go past Uh, yeah, it's quite a nerve the first time you do it. It's quite unnerving Hmm. I bet I had one recently was um Landed at Heathrow in in the fog The aircraft did a great job stopped on the runway. It was so foggy. We couldn't see to taxi off the runway Had to get a follow me car to come and park by the nose wheel and we followed him off the runway It was just the visibility was so bad You don't you don't want to be stuck on a runway too long, do you? My gosh What's it called when you slip the plane slightly sideways like sort of crabbing it in what what's the um Yeah side slip Yeah Side slip. Yeah What I used to do that when I when I came up to Land on the Am I using the right terminology land on the runway? Yeah. Yeah. So when I came to land on the road if I was too high I used to give it was it left rudder and right stick something like that Yeah, you can get rid of the height by doing that. Yeah, you can't really do that in a 747 But you turn in a light aircraft Well, the reason I mention it as I saw one of these air crash investigation Program all that that type of show And the pilot actually did he he'd lost all um All the sort of systems all the He was down to basically he had to fly the plane himself. Yeah And he had one shot at hitting this This runway that was it and yeah He he he crapped an airliner in it was some Okay. Yeah, it was it Yeah, it's not a technique we use very often No for people listening it's It's this configuration you can put an aircraft craft in where it will lose height really quickly because of the the air flow obviously over the wings And so if you come into an air To land and you're way too high You can quickly just do this opposite thing and you can lose a lot a lot of height and And then you level off again and and and you're you're you're good to go Is it Is it um Is it better not having a sort of A whole load of people on board when you're flying cargo It's different, you know, um, I didn't realize how differently because I've only been doing this for a few months, but Um In many ways, it's easier. You don't have to keep keep apologizing for being late. You don't have to keep explaining yourself You have to make your own tea though. That's a bad thing Um But no, it's it's different. So we fly with two or three pilots depending on the length of the flight We have a load master to make sure that all the cargo is Loaded correctly, you know, um in terms of dangerous goods or the weight is all distributed evenly Um, and we have a flight engineer as well who looks after the aircraft when we land So there's usually five of us there, but um, no, it's really different actually it's in many ways. I quite like it Yeah, yeah what um What stories have you got from that your sort of um passenger side of things? So you must have had a few scare stories and Incidents over the years Do you know what when I when I started doing this somebody said to me The airplanes are pretty good. So most of the problems you'll encounter Are going to be to do with either cabin crew or passengers Um, and that's proved the case that really has So, um, I'll give you an example and I think this is a true story Chris. So on one of the flights, um There was a call to the to the flight crew to say that one of the passengers was was really ill Right down the back of the airplane is quite an old guy and he He was really not in a good way now. We can call on a satellite phone and get medical advice which we did and um the um We passed this on to the steward who was looking after this passenger Um, and he called back and he said I think the guys died so so This was in the days when we had a flight engineer on board the passenger airplane as well so he sent the flight engineer back and He confirmed that this guy had he sort of died in his seat. He was quite old and I think he'd had underlying issues So they thought well out of respect rather than just leave him in his this seat There was a little bit more room towards the front of the aircraft So they thought well, let's go and take him there and um out of the way of everybody else So the steward and the flight engineer they were sort of trying to Maneuver this this poor chap through the through the through the cabin So they got him through the economy cabin And the halfway through the club cabin they could see quite a few people were looking around obviously getting a little bit disturbed about it So the flight engineer they stopped he looked around and said did anybody else have the fish? Yeah, I could imagine all the all the veterans on the plane would have been laughing at that when everyone else would have been Yeah, and one of the things we always get asked is, you know, how do you get an upgrade? So people try all sorts of things uh to get an upgrade And there was there was one occasion I thought the cabin crew dealt with this brilliantly So it's quite a large Jamaican lady sat in her seat and and next to her was this quite sort of obnoxious businessman in his sort of shiny suit And he called the cabin crew over and said, you know, I can't sit next to this this woman Um, and he started having a moan about her and so the cabin crew said leave it with me So I'll just go and find out we'll sort something out. So she disappeared off for a couple of minutes Then she came back and she said it's all been sorted sir. Madam if you'd like to come with me We've got a nice seat for you. So he took the took the Jamaican lady off and gave her a nice seat and just left him Where is what where he was? But you know what people try all sorts of of things to get an upgrade. They really do Andy, how do you manage alcohol? um I love it But I mentioned it because it's been such a factor in my My whole my whole adult life. Yeah Um, I really had to manage it. Let's say Yeah, and there's been many times where I failed miserably to to manage it Yeah, but I wasn't in charge of an airliner full of people, right with very strict rules Yeah, and the threat of even if someone got a whiff of it on my breath That's my whole career is down a pan, right? Yeah, and quite quite quite rightly so What how does it work then because I'm just going to throw a few things out here. So I mean Veterans like yourself must you know come from the military where drinking culture and subsequently Alcoholism is a real factor for for a significant percentage Yeah, you've got the fact that as a pilot you're sat around waiting an awful lot of the time whether that be hotel rooms or departure lounges or or crew crew lounges this kind of thing. Yeah you're also in that environment where alcohol is always around you whether it's the bar or the duty free shop or the hotel where you're waiting to You know for your for your taxi or whatever. Yeah, what what can you enlighten us as to sort of Yeah, that's a really good question chris and because you know rather like you the military as you said Is quite a hard. It's a hard Well, it was in those days, wasn't it? It's quite hard drinking hard playing environments Um, and yeah, it has to change when you when you join an airline because you're absolutely right Your job and therefore your career your livelihood Is on the line so and I you know, I love a glass of wine along with the best of my friends really and The way we do it, I suppose it's you just have to be self-disciplines. We do have the rules the rules are there for a reason um Of course, there are people who have in the past broken the rules and there are quite a few people, you know Who've been found out but Most people and all the people I flow with are are sensible So if we go well, give you an example. We go perhaps fly to new york One day we'll have that night and the next day in new york before flying back So we go out for a for a bite to eat maybe have a couple of beers, but that will be it Uh, and you know, then you've got at least 12 hours before your duty report for the flying um, and as I say, you have to be self-disciplined and All the guys I flow with have all been really good about that And even surf say, okay. Yep. We need to stop um And it's in moderation before that too, you know You just can't go and get get hammered and then fly back the next day. It just just doesn't work like that You just can't do it That's the thing about getting older though, isn't it when you're when you're in your 20s and again You're in the forces. Yeah You it is that cliche you go out hammered in the evening and then you're up for a run at Eight o'clock the next morning or you're on guard duty or you'll you know, you'll this you'll Very often carry in live, you know weapon and ammunition Now even just doing the sort of stuff I do now my writing and my podcast and stuff Gosh, I realize I can't even really have a beer the night before now. Yeah. Yeah, it just It just puts me off for the whole of the next day. Yeah. Yeah, I don't enjoy I stop enjoying what I do, right? Yeah, well that's an age thing then because that's the same with me But yeah, it's it's it's interesting, isn't it that I would imagine even as a red arrows pilot So the best of the best You could go out and I'm not suggesting people do but maybe have eight beers the night before and and you're fine the next morning you're just You know good to go but As you get older it's It's just different. Yeah, you can't do it. Can you just it's just impossible And you know, we get time off At home between flights. So that's really when you're going to have a glass of wine with your dinner or a few beers and Yeah, when you're away, just just got to be sensible. So it's self-management And I'm sure there are people, you know, who who can't do it, but It's your livelihood. So you do did it It always seems funny to me when people Go to a country wherever they're just even on a commercial flight and they go, oh, yeah, I stopped over in Hong Kong Yeah, didn't leave the airport And I'm like dude Why didn't you just ask the travel company to give you 48 hours? Yeah I mean, you've just missed out on one of the holy grails of travel locations and yeah the chance to have the Beer, I mean just two days in hot in asia is Going to blow your mind um How is that as as as a pilot in air crew do do people manage that differently They do and the thing is with the flying I've done we always get I would say a minimum of 24 hours Wherever you're going so I've talked about the east coast of america, haven't I so I mentioned boston and new york before So that would be a good example of where you would get 24 hours sometimes further afield You get more you get a couple of days. So your hong kong is a good example We would fly there and have two days off before flying back Because of the you know the length of the flight you need that recovery time So I've actually been really privileged chris to have flown that map behind you Pretty much all over the world, you know South america all over north america canada africa far east australia. So it's been a real privilege. I've I've I don't if you have you've seen one of these apps where you can Add up the number of countries that you've been to Yes, I do it the other day actually did you well, I've been I've been to um, I think it was something like 75 Countries and I thought well, I wonder what that is in terms of how many countries in the world as a percentage And do you know what all that traveling? I thought I must been to nearly everywhere It was 26 percent of the world's countries. So you think there's still I've still got all that to do I always tell people I've traveled to over 80 countries, right? But when I added them up the other day it's 87 Wow But there is a caveat Some of those countries are now no longer countries which are That might sound crazy to people listening, but you've got to remember that Hong Kong You know, what was Hong Kong it it was under British rule, but it was part of china Now it's now it's under chinese. I mean I'd never say that Hong Kong is britain's, you know or england. Yeah, yeah, it's Uh, and then you got places like mcow that was governed by portugal, but now is I don't know if they're independent or under China. What I'm saying is places change and oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah But like you said one of the percentage it gives me on trip advisor is I think it says you've seen 38 percent of the world which is and I would be the first to argue no I've probably seen about 0.03 percent of the world It's a big place But that brings me on To something as a pilot. I'm fascinated to ask you this Are you familiar with the flat earth movement? I have heard of it. Yes. Yeah Okay, tell me more ah Okay, first of all, I just want to start I welcome anybody questioning authority and the status quo I think The last 20 years have shown us that what you see in the media isn't really the The truth of what goes on in the world but I'm also think you have to be aware Of when people are putting misinformation out there And one of the theories out at the moment is the world isn't a globe The world is a plane. So it's it's flat hence the term flat earth And the Antarctica Is not a continent So for people like myself and and my colleagues that have Some of whom have skied across Antarctica, right? Who would say no, it's a continent when you get there. There's rocks, right? It's it's a land mass The flat earth argument is that no we We've somehow been duped and that the Antarctica is just a ring of An ice wall effectively around the edge of the planet to I'm guessing keep the water in And I'll be the first to say that the Some of the arguments that are put out seem very convincing, you know when they talk about water on the surface of a ball and Why doesn't it fly off the earth and But bringing it back to the the pilot connection It's very often it said why don't planes fly over Antarctica And that is given as a reason why the earth is most likely flat I would say off the top of my head. Have you seen the size of it? What if you had to crash land or or you had an emergency on but there's I mean Antarctica It's got to be what the size of north america or or They're abouts, right? Yeah um I don't know Well, we do we do go pretty close to The Arctic certainly the roots. I do not necessarily the Antarctic, but for example if we fly to the west coast of america The map behind you if you drew a line between the uk and the west coast It would be straight across the Atlantic to you know, I don't know Seattle or someone like that But the actual on a globe when you look at it takes you up towards we would go up to from from london You probably head up to scotland iceland halfway up greenland And that's the shortest route on a circle on a globe So that's there's there's your proof to start with really Um If you have a look at a globe and draw a line on a globe that's where it'll take you So we go pretty close to the Arctic on a trip to the west coast of america um There aren't many flights that go right down south, you know from the southern tip of south america say to australia Across specific, but they would probably go quite a long way south as well I would suggest so so yeah I do go way up into the Arctic circle when i'm doing routes like that and routes from you know the uk to I don't know let's say somewhere in china So even hong kong which perhaps shanghai or beijing we go way up over over russia Way up over Siberia, and that is the shortest great circle route Yeah, that's it um There you go Well, that there will be And uh, i'm not here to judge folks, but i'm just saying there will be people that will argue with what you've just said and And they will sound really convincing um It's just kind of funny when like I said i've been to Antarctica, so no one can tell me it's not a continent right, you like I mean and Someone suggested I was on like a movie set that had been built by these ultra rich um, you know Psychopaths that run the planet but Even the Antarctic peninsula alone is about eight times the size of great britain. Yeah Certainly eight times the size of england it would be One hell of a movie set but Yeah, there we go there we go Well, Andy that oh the one last thing I wanted to ask you sure I saw a really fascinating video uh I think it was on youtube not long back And it was somehow suggesting that the amount of fuel that an airliner uses Isn't as much as we've been led to believe That once it's up there and the the turbo jets are doing their their thing I won't pretend I know that they They use very little fuel to keep them going and but it's more the influx of air That cleverly creates the power and i'm Yeah, I mean it uses it's like any engine so it'll use more Like a car when you've got your foot down it's going to use more fuel so you're on takeoff and climb it does but Engines that certainly newer engines with green technology once the aircraft's in the cruise you're absolutely right They are using far less fuel than some of the older engines so technology's moving on and and there's some some really good advances actually with um solar energy electric energy but at the moment even the you know the normal um diesel powered engines are still Relatively economical the problem that the 747 has it's got four of them So it does use more more fuel than than you know your more modern aeroplanes But no that's true in the cruise. They do use they do use less absolutely And one final thing I believe you you speak on cruise ships. Is that right? I do I do they're called insight lectures on cruise ships So I'll I'll go and talk about my red arrows experience my airline experience and various history type subjects all to do with aviation of course um to try and enlighten the passengers when we eventually get back to to cruise cruising again because of course that's all been Decimated as well Yes Although ironically you are kind of quarantine when you're on a ship. That's right. There you are Yeah, what what's the deal there then? Do they do they pay for your whole? But I mean pay obviously you're you're employed but yes Do you get the whole cruise or would you just join them at a certain location? Well, I can do either I tend to to do the whole cruise so and I do the talks when the ship is at sea So of course when you're in port everybody goes off on various trips and things like that so um When the ships it see I'll I'll do a talk and they're usually two or three guest speakers on board So maybe on a transatlantic crossing, you know, you'd be talking each day So you need to have a library of talks. I've got about 10 10 different talks that I do So I might see you on a cruise ship one day chris I was going to say if you um If you want someone to do your powerpoint slides, I'm your man. No, I was thinking but you'd be doing a talk as well Mate, they won't ask people like me. Um I think my uh, my true life story is too It's too out there. Yes, you know, I talk about reality and The sad factor alive is 90 8% of people don't want to live in reality and It's a shame because it means mental health just gets yeah decide understanding addiction gets shoved aside And they're both so important aren't they and I think you know what even at the end of all this we're going to see that They're so much more important than we thought Yeah, well, you know, we're all going to lose loved ones to mental health issues in years to come especially Probably off the back of what's going on now. Yeah, definitely. Um, but yeah, but I don't know if there's any cruise ships out there They're all parked up in um pool harbour at the moment. I think yes. My gosh. I love being I love being on a I haven't really stung so much cruises As in like a holiday. Yes. Um, but I did go on an expedition ship to as I said to Antarctica. Yeah Which is technically like a you know, it's Very Excellent service on board. It was like being on a sort of cruise. Yes Um, and we sailed back from Norway on a cruise liner. Okay And I've done things like for example get a ferry from Sweden to Iceland Which is a two Maybe a two and a half day crossing. Yeah And again, that's kind of set. I don't know where where you cross the line from being a ferry to a cruise Yeah, it gives you a flavour of it. Doesn't it? Definitely. I love it though. And I really I think it's because when you step for step foot on that ship All your stresses you just leave behind you. Yeah, I I agree and that's your home. You can't get off You've just got to make the most of of where you are and it's great. I love it too Yes Well, I've certainly loved our talk mate. Thank you ever so much. Hey, it's a pleasure Um, just my god. I'm just so lucky to meet people such as yourself. Um massively Good luck with everything. Thanks, Chris. Where's the best place to people to book you to speak? I've got my own website actually, which is called plain speaking dot co just dot co not dot com Um, and I'm also with an agent called champion speakers So either of those So you can contact me at um, Andy just scrolling this down not that I couldn't find it in that search, but um Plain speaking. I'll put these below our video and on it. Yeah, that's great. Thank you No problem So thank you again, Andy. Just just stay on the line so I can thank you properly to everybody at home Um, big love to you all look after yourselves. Thank you for tuning in again If you could like and subscribe that would be Wonderful or set the notification bell is something I've never asked anyone to do until today so you It's a milestone in the bought the t-shirt podcast history Is such exciting way that I live hit the bell Take care everyone Hello friend. I hope this finds you well. My name is chris trawl I'm a former rawmarine's commando And I fought my way back from chronic trauma and addiction to live work and travel In 80 countries across all seven continents Achieving all of my dreams and goals along the way Now I pass my simple system onto other people But I can only help you if you Like and subscribe So please do so because you get one life And if you live it right One is enough