 Ah, it's Monday. It's Monday noon. And we have Mary Ann Sasaki. She joins us by Skype from New York. Because, you know, one way or the other, we need to do, she said, that's our show here at 12 noon every other Monday. So welcome from New York, Mary Ann. Greetings from the Big Apple, Jay. Yeah. Now we agreed to talk about gun violence today. In fact, we did a commentary over the weekend on it. We'll play that as time goes by. But I wanted to style this gun violence in America and unraveling. We have only half an hour to talk about it, so we have to move fast. So can you give us a praisey about what happened here? That's a good question. What's going on? What's different from, let's say, 30 years ago when there wasn't the proliferation of guns or 50 years ago and today? And I have a very, you know, I have one answer in a nutshell. And I think it's the lobbying efforts of the NRA. The lobbying efforts of the NRA have resulted in an uptick in the sales of guns in this country, in the sales of automatic weapons, and the concomitant violence that goes with having so many weapons. I think there are 50 million guns in the country. There's only like 300 million people. So that's a lot of people with guns. This reminds me of cars, actually. You know, we have a lot of cars. We sell a lot of cars. Some families have more cars than they can possibly use. In the state of Hawaii, there's more cars than people, believe it or not. And I say people, I mean man, women, and children people. And they're made well. They last a long time. And the same thing with guns. They're made well. They last for lifetimes. And really forever there's hardened steel. They keep on working. You don't have to do a lot of maintenance to keep them going. And you collect them. A lot of people collect them. A lot of people have many, many, many guns on the back shelf. And really, yeah, the result is an enormous number of guns. They come into the consumer marketplace, but they don't really leave the consumer marketplace. And you know, I'd like to take a point out of your commentary. And I think this is an operative feature. If you have one, you think about using it. You always think about what you might do with that gun. And I think a lot of people do it, whatever it may be. I think, you know, it's like any tool that you acquire. It's now part of your skill set and it's a way, you know, it's part of your skill set. I mean, for example, I don't own a gun. I would never think of resolving anything by a gun. So, I mean, that's just an anecdotal, obviously. But it just never would even come into my mind. But if you have it, obviously you've got to think, well, I'm going to use it. Why buy it if you're not going to use it? Now, the question it becomes, what do you use it for? You know, I mean, what do you really need an assault rifle for? What does a person need an assault for? You know, it's been said that you need to have a gun to protect yourself, you know, from criminals, I suppose. And maybe there's a point there, except that the criminals have guns too. And so you'll heighten the stakes when you and the criminal are going to have a shootout. Somebody will die and you're likely to be the one because you're not experienced in these matters. Right. I always think that's a ludicrous argument because there'd be less, you know, this kind of mass murder or violence if more people had guns. But you know what? I don't know very many people that would be able to retain their calm and cool in a crisis situation and be able to utilize a weapon, untrain people. And I heard somebody, but I heard themselves. The other point that's been made is, well, you need the guns to protect yourself from an unruly government, from a government that's run amok. And you know, my reaction to that is, well, wait a minute, the government has an unlimited amount of guns. And if you want to have a shootout with the government, they win. And even if they don't win on day one, they'll win on day two, three, or four. You will not survive that. And nobody ever has. When the government decides it's going to, you know, pit their guns against your guns, you lose. That's right. So there's no point in having a gun to defend yourself against an unruly government. If you want to fix the government, then vote. Well, I find it fascinating that the implicit message of the NRA is that you need a gun against the encroaching federal government. And yet they have such conservative values, but they sort of are spreading that grassroots radicalism. I find that very, very disturbing. You know, what occurred in the United States at the time of the Continental Congress is a very unique moment in history. And we're not likely to see the need for well-armed militia in any time in the near future, I think, in the United States. So I mean, it's nice that we preserve the right to have it, but I don't think the government, I can't imagine us rising up against the government in that fashion. Yeah, well, and what is a militia anyway? I mean, you know, I think I've been raised to see the militia as the National Guard, but the National Guard has become part of the military. It's called up in times of war or catastrophe. It's not like a bunch of citizens who organize themselves. I don't think there really is a militia. There isn't any militia. So what are we talking about here? Not militia is the way our forefathers contemplated them. Guns are not being used the way our forefathers contemplated them. I mean, I have to imagine they thought of them as tools for hunting and tools maybe to defend the family homestead from encroachers. And maybe a weapon to be picked up when you're going to revolt against England. But I really don't think that they could envision somebody stepping in to say a... Well, I don't think the forefathers contemplated what has happened here. I mean, we have such racial strife, and if we have guns all around, then the guns have got to be involved in the racial strife, and they are. And we now have more street violence, more shooting and killing in this country than, you know, person for person, than really anywhere. And we're an embarrassment to ourselves. I mean, other countries are warning the citizens not to come here. I agree. So, gee whiz, this is tragic. So many factors have somehow come together, and guns are at the center of it. What about our do-nothing Congress who refuses to even vote against even the slightest gun control measures? What do you think of those guys? The Republicans. You mean the Republicans, don't you? Yes. But I think the Democrats are responsible too, because what kinds of measures are these? Oh, if you're on the no-fly list, you can't have a gun. Doesn't mean anything. That's a very weak, stupid thing. Well, I would tell you, I had dinner last night with an old friend of mine from Australia, and they don't have a problem with gun control in Australia. One day they decided that nobody could have a gun anymore, or at least very few people could have guns anymore. And they said, put the gun in the basket, and we are going to chop off the barrel, and we're going to smelt it. So it's liquid molten steel, and there'll be no more guns. And if you don't do that, we're going to find you or put you in jail. And the result is that people gave up their guns, and now there are very few guns left in Australia. This is a good thing, don't you think? I agree. I wish we could do it. But you know what? The NRA will never let that happen. But I think there's a solution. And the solution, I think, is an intersection of interests with respect to controlling arms. I think the government has an interest in controlling arms. I think margin a lot, not marginalized, but certain groups like lesbians and gays who were attacked, people who were targeted, blacks, for example. I think different groups all have different reasons for wanting to limit the number of guns. And I think all these groups need to get together. And I think they need to bring the power of their voices against the monolithic voice of the NRA that keeps pushing for more and more and more dangerous and more access to guns. Well, what's the relationship between the NRA and Congress? What's the relationship between the NRA and Republicans? Well, the NRA, I looked at the top people that the NRA contributed to. And it's the Republican National Committee. It's various Republican committees of various states. And then going down the line, it's Republican candidates. But you know what? I'm not going to call this a Republican issue because I'm sure there are Democrats that take money from the NRA as well. And they're just too powerful. They're just incredibly, incredibly powerful. I can't see how they could be so powerful because this gets worse and worse. And the common denominator of all these, the hideous incidents, is guns. Too many people having too many guns. You know, there was an article in The Times over the weekend, I'm guessing you saw it too. And it was about the fact that there were some 15 or 20 guys walking around in that event where the shootings took place who had long guns in public. And they're wearing camouflage outfits and black jackets and bulletproof vests and walking around. And when the shooting started, the police, those of whom, you know, could focus on what to do, they couldn't figure out what to do. Because they were confused by the fact that there were people walking around with guns in the crowd who were not police. And this, you know, this is Texas. And Texas is really way out on this. We can't have this. No, you know, it's funny because in a way that's a free speech issue. I mean, obviously it's a right to carry issue. But dressing in camouflage and looking a certain way, looking like a certain paramilitary person, that's a way of expressing yourself. Well, we don't have the unlimited right to express ourselves in this way in this country when it's a danger to a group of people, it's a danger to people at large. I think, you know, holding yourself out as a military person by dressing in camouflage and carrying a long gun, I think that's not indicative of any right or it's not emblematic of any right that I see in the Constitution. Why am I reminded of, was it Justice Black who talked about shouting fire in a crowded movie theater? Exactly. That was not protected. Exactly. It's the same thing. You can't bring... I saw the article and there was this guy with an automatic weapon and full-clamp camouflage. The police thought, you know, he was possibly one of the assailants because, well, any normal person would. Well, you know what? You don't have the right to do that. You don't have the right to walk around in camouflage with a gun because you're holding yourself out as something that you're not. You're not. And this goes to the point of the militia again. I mean, there's these militia, I don't know, quasi-illegal militias that hold up somewhere and do illegal things there. And then the government has to root them out because they're doing bad things even to their own members. How many times has that has happened over the past several years? And guns are at the center of that one, too. And if that's protected right, I'll be a monkey's uncle. Absolutely. I think you know what's really funny? There was one group in California, anti-federal government, anti-government group. They were holed up and the... Not the DEA, but some section of the FBI, the firearms section of the FBI was, you know, they were in a standoff, right? And these guys who are against everything the federal government stands for wanted their postage, their postal package. They wanted food sent to them by the post office. So now these guys are against the federal government, right? But they want to use the services of the federal government talking about when they say they were opposed to the government. People are opposed to the government, but yet they want, you know, their social security. Well, you're touching on another element here. You know, this is an intersection. Guns are not the only thing at the intersection. There's, you know, a disconnection with government. And people don't treat government as their government anymore. You know, they worry about government infringing on their rights. They worry about the government do things like in Nazi Germany. They worry about the worst things coming out of government. And so you have a distrust and then you have guns disposed of that would protect you from the government. But you have a distrust of the police and the police have a distrust of you and we're unraveling. And arguably we're at war. This is like the Civil War all over again. It's an internal civil war. And I'd like to take one minute for everybody to think about that. And we come back. I'd like to talk about how we're going to fix it. Won't be easy. We'll do it in 15 minutes. That's Marianne Sasaki. Here we are. And he said, she said, talking about gun violence in America and unraveling. We'll be right back. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. And I am the host of Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea brings lawyers, mostly lawyers, to the audience of think tech to talk about ways that lawyers not just represent clients but bring people together across the sea. Law can be a means to bring people together. Not just fighting but resolving problems, working together and discovering cultures that help us make a peaceful world. And that's part of my goal here is to bring lawyers into the audience of Hawaii to explain the background that they have and the ways that we in Hawaii can progress through the law to reach across the sea. Thank you very much. Aloha. Okay. Welcome back to, he said, she said, Marianne Sasaki and me, we do this every now and then. Today we're talking about gun violence in America and unraveling question mark. Maybe it's not so much a question mark. So, you know, here we are. And, you know, and during the break, we're talking about how, you know, this is, this is really awful. And it's hard not to be excited about it. It's hard not to be frightened by it. I mean, this is like the country doesn't trust itself. The country is not so much a country as it used to be. This is a long way from Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Where are the high ideals now when everybody's shooting each other in the street? This, you know, sounds like we're moving into anarchy. So, so my question to you, and we have 15 minutes to address this. So talk fast. Okay. How do we fix it? Got it. Well, I, I'm with the Australians. You described the situation which Australia asked everybody to turn their guns. And if they didn't, then they would be incarcerated. And I'm, you know, I don't believe in this case in half measures. I think we should get the guns off the streets. You know, policemen think we should get the guns off the streets. The government thinks we should, we should moderate the kinds of guns that are available to the citizens. Everybody agrees with this. This is not a, they may not agree to the extent that I say where I think nobody should have a gun, except, you know, maybe police officers in the army. But, but everybody, every right-thinking person to some extent or other wants some form of gun control. And we had it and it expired. And we lived with it for a long, long time until, until the NRA decided to, you know. Well, you get three factors working. One is, well, maybe four. You get this accumulation of guns. That's happening relentlessly. Two is you get the power of the NRA. Despite all the things, like Sandy Hook is a good example. All the things happening, they still, you know, get money and they still are effectively lobby, mostly Republicans in Congress. And then you have the racial strife and you have this distrust of the government. All these, it's a really volatile cocktail. And now here we are. We're in deep kimchi, actually. And so, you know, you say, well, let's get everybody to turn in the guns like Australia. But, but what about the NRA? How do you get around that? Or do we have to wait until we have so many tragedies where it's just so tragic all day every day. I don't think it's coming to that. I mean, there have been three or four tragedies in the past few days. I really feel that we've had it. I mean, I don't, look, if after Sandy Hook, the NRA could not come out with some kind of statement, at least, I mean, they, you know, do you know that the NRA, people joining the NRA, there was an uptick after Sandy Hook, they lobbied even harder after Sandy Hook. Well, defensive lobbying. They were afraid they were going to be, you know, undermined somehow by the event in Sandy Hook that people would rise up against them so they worked all the harder. Right. But you know, one thing comes to mind. I mean, it's a modern day with social media and all that, and maybe people in general out there across the country can come together on this all size of the issue, including the police. And they can do social media on the NRA and say, you guys better stop. And that means don't give any money to the legislature, to do any legislature. A lot of legislatures statewide have been bought by the NRA. Right. And a campaign on every legislature and every congressperson telling them, don't take money from the NRA. We've got to get past this. This is a sick situation and we have to work together on it. You can't be doing business as usual. What do you think about that? I think it's coming to that because, as you know, a group of Democrats, the congressman and some senators sat in on the House floor in opposition to the Republicans not wanting to vote on it, not even vote. When I say vote in any specific way, take any specific measures, they just didn't even want to vote for it. So the Democrats, you know, they offended the rules of decorum in the House. I mean, if you're having situations like this where you're having congressmen sit in and not follow the rules of the institution which they're a part of, that isn't unraveling. Well, that's not what the Founders intended. That's not the way the system is supposed to. This is like the Supreme Court confirmation. That's not the way the system is, you know, that's game-playing at the worst. And, you know, I know I like to do, I like to call up using Skype, the most advanced version of Skype, and call up the Founders. Get them on the phone. I wish. And ask them what they think about this and what they would do. And I think people might listen to them now. Yes, maybe. Well, you know, people think they have a direct line to the Founders. Unfortunately, nobody does. But, you know, I think we're really reaching a tipping point here where there's going to be enough discrete groups for whom guns are a really, really big issue that they're going to come together and there's going to be maybe a march on Washington. Or maybe it'll happen by a social media. Probably will happen by a social media where there'll be enough people who will get together accretively and have the power to, you know, basically you have to not vote for the candidates at the NRA support. You have to be very programmatic about it and vote those guys out and let them know why you're voting them out, too. How does this affect the election coming soon? I heard some talk by Donald Trump, and I think he was right. He was saying we have to train the police better. It sort of starts with them. They've got to be more careful. Of course, they're scared. You know, that's what happened in Minnesota. The cop was scared, and he didn't know what to do with it, so he shot somebody dead. And that's really tragic. We've got to do better at selecting and training the cops. We've got to make them really professional every time, every circumstance. I think that's right. I think there's too much militarization in the police force. I think that police are armed with weapons that they can't. I think you're right. I think they need better training. But did you hear that Donald Trump said he was the law and order candidate? Did you hear him say that? I'm the law and order candidate? Yeah, I did hear him say that. That's reminiscent of... I'm not sure if that really helps. What happened to tasers, you know, Marianne? Didn't we have a whole generation of tasers where you could stop somebody without hurting them? What happened? I don't remember the good old days of tasers, Jerry. No, I really keep waiting for somebody to pull out a taser and sort of defuse the situation that way. But they never do that. They pull out an assault rifle. So how are we going to fix this? I mean, what's the first step? I mean, the first step is that people talk to each other and... That's the problem. I wanted to say that. If you have two people there standing with a gun, whether it's an intruder in your house and you, you know, the gun from, you know, on your nightstand, or a cop and somebody he, you know, feels is committing a crime, when they both got guns, the chances of, you know, a shootout are so much greater than if they didn't. You know, there's no chance to have a calm discussion because both sides are afraid. You know, that's like, I'm sorry to refer to animals, but dogs. You know, if dogs are afraid, they become dangerous. Isn't that true? That's a regular rule of dealing with a dangerous dog. If they are afraid, they become dangerous. People are the same way. So if you have people in a confrontation that are afraid and they have guns, they're going to have this happen. So I think you've got to take guns away. You've got to train the police better. My own view is Australia is right because there's no point in citizens having guns except for limited use like hunting. And I suppose that was an exception in Australia. And until we do this, until we take some really strong, decisive, you know, universal action in this country where everybody agrees it's going to get worse. The problem is, in my view, that if it gets worse beyond a certain tipping point, and we may be past certain tipping points already, that it's unrecapturable. You can't fix it. I would pass the tipping point. I think, you know, I think we're so far past the point of being of some place like Australia where you can say to people, all right, volitionally give up your guns. You know, I mean, I think we just have to start at regulation. I mean, we have to get some—there's no regulation. It's an unregulated market. I mean, imagine if—well, imagine if cars were, like, unregulated in this way. Anybody could drive a car, any—and you could drive a hot rod down the street, something— an Indianapolis 500 car. You could drive that on a highway or—drugs were not regulated or—their guns are not regulated. Any attempt at regulating gun sales, people start howling about the Second Amendment. The NRA starts howling about the Second Amendment. The God Dealers have to—they got to—they can't be doing this. They got to be either put out of business or very closely regulated. And I'll tell you, one thought occurs to me is that there ought to be an amnesty program for the people who will be willing to give up guns. Well, you know, New York City did that, actually. Did it work? They—they—one year I remember—it was about—I guess 20 years ago, they said basically, turn in your illegal firearms. No questions will be asked. Just come and turn them in and nothing will happen to you. And they got a really—a pretty large turnout, as I recall. I mean, people were—people understood that that was a benefit to them, actually, in the end. So, you know, I know a lot of people, Jay. I know a lot of really smart people. I know a lot of really physically fit people. I don't know anybody that I would trust with a gun. I swear to you. I mean, my call, you know, in the legal community, I put to say, you know that fellow? He should have a gun. Do you—do you know people who you think—oh, sorry, from like law enforcement or police? I mean, they're just not trainable enough to carry a gun, to own a gun. It's also a mindset. You have to be completely rational all the time. You know, having a beer in a bar and having a gun, that's a bad recipe. Remember what happened with that secret service guy who shot somebody dead here a few years ago? Anyway, I mean, we're out of time, but I think it's a good conversation. We have to continue it. And I think we all ought to be talking about it. And maybe the social media idea is good. The amnesty idea is good. Retraining of the police is good. And this is not going to encourage policemen or rather applicants for police jobs to, you know, apply for those jobs. Policing becomes more dangerous now. And you really wonder who, in his right mind, would apply to be a policeman right now. I agree. I think it's a very dangerous, very dangerous job and not as well-paid as it ought to be, actually. Well, I hope other people are thinking right about this and look forward to talking with you some more about it, Mary Ann. I can't wait to see you. The same here. I love New York, but I miss Hawaii. Hawaii's home now. Give everyone in New York our best regards, Mary Ann. I will. I will. All three people that I'm going to see.