 In a true dopamine bound braid form I am currently uploading our video clip for braid club as we speak because that's how this goes. We don't build the plane as we fly it. Oh yeah no it's literally it's build the plane as we fly it it's um make the video as we play it yeah yeah so it goes all right let me close all things that are not this and we will get ourselves started I think it's we can get started amazing well let me turn them back up recording I never remember brain recording in progress amazing hi everybody welcome to brain club I don't know everybody today so I'll introduce myself I'm Mel Hauser I use she they pronouns and I am executive director here at all brains belong and whether you're joining us here synchronously or joining us via the recording very excited for this conversation so all month we have been talking about creating neuro inclusive spaces in different domains whether that be at in in at the workplace in our homes and today we're gonna think about what it what does it mean to create to neuro inclusive at social spaces that's not what I want there's the screen right there we go okay so if you would like closed captioning and if it's if if if you've not figured out how to pop it up yet depending on your version of zoom it's either the live transcript cc option or the more and shoes show subtitles you could also do the same things for hide some titles all right we are revamping our intro the adb team we we revamped some things this week so in I'm just gonna before I go into the usual things I want to make a quick word on language you will hear me and like we several other participants use identity first language for example I am autistic and and and that's because for me that is part of my identity and so while that may be that may be new if this is your first spring club or your first spring club recording but that's that is what you what you may hear and while that's not a universal experience of neurodivergent people it is a it is a common experience of neurodivergent people so I wanted to make a word on language all forms of participation are okay here you can have your video on or off it's like you figure that out already many of you and even if your video is on we do not expect anything of you we do not expect you to look at the camera we don't expect you to sit still like eat spidget stim move around whatever whatever needs doing and you can communicate however you're most comfortable you can unmute you can type in the chat box you can any any anything that works for you and safety is really important to us so in addition to affirming all aspects of identity you'll hear us speak a lot about respecting and protecting one another's access needs so for example though you're welcome to talk about anything that you're comfortable talking about just ask that if you're talking about something that you experienced as traumatic or distressing just let everyone know about it first a content warning for the topic so that listeners can listen with informed consent versus leaving the room for a minute or turning their sound off and we'll type in the chat box with a content warning is over and then new we're gonna try this out much like in text-based virtual spaces if a topic is posted about the moderators say hey please add a content warning we are going to try to get your attention even synchronously here at Green Club to add content warnings because sometimes it's hard to know it's hard to know when do I get a project warning because a lot of times we get so used to our own distress okay now ready to go neurodivergence and social relationships not surprisingly neurodivergent people have higher rates of negative social experiences despite longing for social content because we're all wired for connection and there's so many barriers to socializing the literature would would would would would confirm what's you know anecdotally is as many people's experience which is that social interactions can be exhausting anxiety provoking quite stressful but when we really think about the double empathy problem this was our theme of brain club for August where this is a term coined by Dr. Damian Milton who is an autistic social scientist in the UK research showing that between neurodivergent people communication is efficient it is it is nuanced it is rich and rewarding there are as opposed to between mixed neurotype communication not autistic to autistic and vice versa it's miscommunication in both directions so really it's the mismatch of communication style and worldview that is responsible for a lot of the social stress but that's not to say that that's the only social stress because what we've been talking about here at Green Club is when we think about access needs access needs being anything that any of us need for meaningful participation in our lives conflicting access needs want and needing the same thing that is the exact opposite of what someone else needs at the exact same time is also common even the most neurodivergent social wind directors that's not a word but you know so this is this is this is my new favorite slide I use this in a in a in a presentation to to some professionals last week I asked Luna I said Luna I'm about to give a neurocultural competency training what should I tell them and this is what my sweet little love had to say mama tell them there's no what right way to be a person and my and of course she's like sitting there with her mermaid dress chewing on her chicken kebab anyway I just she's the best so anyway that is true that is true my sweet little love she knows all the things and she'll tell you that too so you know when we think about how do we create you know we hear the term safe space all the time like yeah I personally I find that term annoying sometimes because I think it's it's it's used a lot in spaces that don't feel safe to my nervous system so so you know I think that explicitly naming there's no right way to be a person there's no right way to socialize there's no right way to do most things I think that is knowing that naming that explicitly meets a lot of people's access needs because like it or not there are a lot of a lot of spaces where it's not true but it's implicitly or explicitly the message is sent that there is a correct way to socialize a correct way to play a correct way to communicate and so that's there's the trauma response that you know that lives in many nervous systems that that comes to bear in in all future future encounters so what does that mean for safe space I'm my my thesis and and I'd love to know what folks think about this that truly a requirement for actually safe space is that we begin with a shared goal where the shared goal is that one I will meet my own access needs and that I'm I'm actually going to try to not violate others access needs so many experiences that's your goal is not established it's not even considered because of privilege all the many layers of privilege so I wonder think about that in terms of is that Q for the shared goal of meet my access needs and not violate other people's access needs is that well established in many of the social situations that you find yourselves in hey Mel yeah go ahead hey go for it hey well I found your your brain matching thing interesting I think that they're I think that's like the major the only example that came to mind and this is weird but it's like I would never go to a rave and feel comfortable that's just not my scene so I wouldn't choose to go to a rave so I guess what that means is like if you're if we're if you know a group is putting together a social interaction we have to like know the brains that are coming right and then but then likewise I think for certain types of brains part of social anxiety is like not knowing what you're walking into and so being being able to be transparent about what the space is going to be like and I think also acknowledging like you know we want to be all inclusive but but allowing people to create their boundaries may mean that they don't that's not their safe space this time so that was interesting with the with the brain thing and so I don't know if that's a jumping off point for anyone else but that kind of really resonated with me it's a jumping off point for like literally my next slide so no truly I think that right not all spaces are going to be the spaces that that that we may we may choose but it's like the informed consent thing if I don't know what it is that I'm walking into I can't actually have consent about like going and showing up hey Sierra yeah I just jumping off of what you both just said as thinking about like telling people what to expect at an event in an interaction in a relationship whatever giving people that information beforehand as one of the best ways to like have accessibility whether or not you're able to meet the access needs of every single person who might want to come giving people the information of this is what we're providing is what we're able to provide having that kind of transparency as the way out of chaos and I think that's I think that's really true with the relationships to like hey this is what I'm able to provide in this relationship and does this work for you is this am I getting what I went out of the relationship I think that that worked with a lot of different things absolutely Sarah yeah I was just going to say to like normalizing everybody having access needs to begin with so not making it like a special accommodation to make it feel good for just a certain individual but noting that we all have access needs I think that's a conversation that's really lacking in a lot of different yeah you know places and experiences that I've had so I think that's one thing that makes all brains belong unique in that way yeah and I think that once we can give ourselves permission to be like I get to show up I get to have access needs in fact everybody does it's just it's it's the start of something and when we think about what goes into what we what what we might define as a neural inclusive social event not just a social exchange but like if we're gonna like because we we were approached I think back in June right so we're approached by an organization in June to say like will you help us develop like a menu a menu like a like some guidelines of like how would you actually structure some neural inclusive social events like I don't think there's one great way to do that but I do think that there is some some some element of stuff before stuff during and stuff after because for many people it is an access need to be able to preview what what what can be expected how how many people are gonna be there where is it maybe what does it look like or feel like what's gonna happen there where's the bathroom will there be food will I am I likely to get COVID there you know like those are all access needs and the during and I'm gonna use this like this I think is a pretty cool graphic made by Janelle star one of our community advisory board members she's like bang this out at a committee meeting one day she's like did you do yeah I just just I just I just made this of all of the sensory aspects that go into day to day life I'll send it I'll send this out or you don't like study it now I'll send it out I think it's really cool but but that's not all I think like Gabe said a few minutes ago you got to know the brains in the room right so you got to know your own access needs which most of us don't and maybe it starts from reflection on like what really did not work for me and maybe what are the themes of what that tells me about my access needs like when did I not feel comfortable when did I not feel safe when did I not feel fully able to participate that but but knowing everyone else's access needs also and and you can you can know those things because you have a pre-existing relationship but more often than not you're gonna be in situations where you don't know the people and so it's it's it's it's it goes back to I think we had a brain club back in July about like not expecting mind reading so normalizing these are my access needs and I'm gonna I'm gonna share them with you and to create a culture where that happens I think is really the the only way for people to to know other people's access needs and you know we can normalize that there's no right way to participate and actually I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna unshare so I'm gonna pull up this graphic but I think he's cute right here there we go when I when I was homeschooling Luna when she was three Luna has the kind of brain that really it's an access need to have at a top-down structure to like organize information to follow so she really was did not feel safe attending this is pre-COVID attending a play date until it was named that there's no correct way to participate at a play date there are in fact and you know there's like a million different ways to play with friends but this was the structure I came up with you can it's actually a thing that observation like somebody somebody shared before his brain club like oh hey you know I'm gonna be driving I'm probably not gonna you know chime in like you never have to chime in because observation is you know it's it's a format of participation parallel play at all ages it's totally legit that's what going to a concert is that's what you know like I remember being a little kid and you know I'd have play dates with this one friend and we would read books side by side and that's how we played but like there's something about you get this message of like well you know playing with friends is when you like all play together cooperatively like once you're two years old like parallel plays over that's not a thing like parallel played all ages is totally legit anyway so that and then like I think the last big picture point that I'm hoping we can spend the rest of our time talking about today because it's big one is naming and navigating conflicting access means you know conflicting access needs like you know Luna needs to make noise at the exact same time that I need complete silence in order to think conflicting access means it doesn't mean either one of us is correct it's that we have to just acknowledge this conflict and you know bring some transparency to it it's nothing else and you know it and how do we how do we protect our own access needs protect other people's access needs having a plan for course correction when access needs are not met how do we respond to that because I think not having a plan for that is how we a lot of people end up in social experiences that are not are not safe at a limbic level I'm gonna play a video that I think actually uploaded in time just in time incredible so this is oops I don't okay I have to stop share and share the sound separately so so this is Lizzie Peratt who is our educational programs coordinator near our ADB team this this this is these are the kinds of conversations that we have like for like you know like like casually we have these like deep deep big picture what's the meaning of life conversations all day around here and sometimes we record them and turn them into brain folks so here we go so we have this situation right where there's often conflicting access needs I need a thing and you need the opposite of the thing at the same time and neither one of them are correct and they just are and we also have a situation where sometimes in when people infringe upon another's access need they don't know that they did like they say something like they say something and like my limbic system like yeah and I might be able to cordically override my limbic response maybe I can maybe I can't but even if I can I still think that energetically my energy goes into the space my energy of like recoil and then I think that energy for some people I think they feel it and we think about rejection-sensitive dysphoria if someone either verbally or energetically gives you course correction it is often really uncomfortable so I have no I don't know how to navigate this I think the I mean all I all I know is that like acknowledging it and bringing it to light like transparency is the way out of chaos I think this is like that that applies here but I don't know what else we do but it's a it's a thing definitely a thing I don't know what to do I mean I've heard that like one time I heard that someone tries to envision like a bubble of golden light around them when they're thinking about the energy coming at them but I mean for me it's hard for like I only see pictures when I dream so I feel like that could work if you can have a visual images in your brain but for me I can't do that so interestingly so you're just you're talking about you're referring to like strategies for like how to be in a space to protect yourself energetically that's cool what do you do when you're the facilitator and you can witness access needs being violated how do you cue safety to protect the access needs of some while not inducing rejection sense of dysphoria in others I literally have no idea I'm a terrible facilitator I'm like absolutely terrible facility I have no idea but like feel like when I'm the facilitator I have like an extra burden yeah an extra burden responsibility of protecting the participants maybe that's just me but like that's maybe it's a brain rule but like I don't know I I really do operate under the guidance of like what you permit you promote yeah I agree and there's so much there's so many like ableist microaggressions at events I attend there's so much like just language or attitudes or vibes that that I'm seeing like I can zoom out and watch that energetic battle of like I bring this energy to the space the impact of that energy on other people like I see it and I just want to shut it down all the time but then I'm like oh I know that I don't really know how to shut it down because I know that rejections rejection sense of dysphoria is a thing and I often like I'm often at events where like I'm a captive I'm a captive where like I hear the thing and I'm like I can't escape this thing because in order to stop this thing would mean interrupting the thing and I can't interrupt and yeah yeah and I think energetically too then you're sitting there and then you're getting depleted you know because you're seeing all that energy so it could be really tiring on yourself yeah yeah totally it's interesting I was on last week I was at an event it was not our event and energetically it was uncomfortable and someone who I know was at the event and they left and later they shared that they left because they anticipated that their nervous system might become uncomfortable with what might come next so they were protecting their nervous system the idea of being able to say like not safe for my nervous system not healthy I'm out of here I never do that no I don't either and then it's always just recovery afterwards you know and then you're just depleted and it's like oh you took a hit that day you know totally and not just that day but it could be like recovering for like several days like this this particular event my nervous system down so uncomfortable that like I mean I'm still not really regulated it was like six days ago so anyway it's like when you have the kind of nervous system that is so porous to energy um you you it becomes an accessing thing of in order for me to mean to participate in literally anything for the rest of the week I need to protect my energy now yeah and so maybe it's just naming that upfront of like part of the ground rules here or that we need to figure out a way to like how do we give feedback you know like sometimes I go sometimes I attend meetings and you know people talk about like well safe space it's a safe space like no it's not a safe space safe space is at the level of the beholder you know like if I don't it's it's like inclusion like only the person can can can can decide whether they feel they belong like only the person each individual person can decide whether they feel safe so it's like what do you need to feel safe I need there to I need energetically to feel safe and the energy that I put out into the world I think is determined by what I'm thinking how I see the world my attitude's about a topic um and I don't think people think about that at all and so unknowingly they bring energy into a space that is um you know energy attitudes thoughts they matter just as much as what comes out of you know a person's you know overt communication yeah it's true and you know people aren't thinking about their energy and maybe they're just so used to having that type of energy too they they think that's all there is oh I think that is true I think that is true um I do think that as a facilitator one of the things that I can maybe do better at is like laying the ground rules maybe more specifically and maybe I think in the beginning of ABB we used to be we used to remember to put the ground rules in the chat so like you have the slide but then the slide is gone so like reminding this business of of access needs reminding about content warning you really do want much like this person who left this thing last week to protect their nervous system which we want all people to be able to protect their nervous systems yeah and I think also to have even maybe added ground rule where that it's okay you know if you have to leave the meeting you don't need to feel bad you don't need to feel ashamed that you know you're protecting your energy and and that's a wise thing to do I love that I love that so much that's really important giving people permission yeah to do what needs doing um it seems though that um we have to find a way to talk about this that it's um when when you unknowingly infringe upon someone else's access needs there are definitely cues for example if someone says something and I like recoil um I don't have a way I don't I I I don't give feedback I courtically override but yet I'm energetically still you know I'm I'm I can't control what energy goes out into the world I can I can hit my mute button um you know that's my accommodation for impulse control but like energy it just comes out of me pour us in pour us out and as the facilitator I have to both set expectations concretely and have a have a way of course correcting to protect the group's collective experience so we didn't solve this problem I still have no idea um you know uh the the idea of how do you course correct like we've left this we've we've we've left the ground rules how do we get back without induce without without potentially infringing upon more access needs hey Gabe go for it I mean it's it's kind of interesting to me that you talk about struggling with this because you are always like my mentor in terms of acknowledging you know someone will say something that may seem um like off topic like if you were giving a presentation or something and you would always go interesting tell me what you mean by that or like you would give them permission to like to express or explain whatever was going on in their brain so to me you were always like very good at that um but I guess what what I'm trying I'm trying to like picture what kind of settings or meetings are we imagining this this being at is this just like all brains long or is this like community events or is this like yeah like what kind of events are we specifically talking about that's interesting I don't think I had anything in particular in mind I mean let's even take for oh hey you need to go for it um I think I might need to have a content warning I'm not sure how that works I also don't know how to raise my hand um the way you raised your hand was just fine okay so yeah so content warning what's the name of the topic uh social engagement um I think why I want to we have a content warning because um you know I think I think I really agree with Gabe around like being in this space and really feeling like you facilitate this that the you know everyone's access needs are you know fine you can interact and I've really um being so late that late uh in life diagnosed autistic my whole um engagement is wrapped around masking and the continual so no one would know anything was wrong with me ever in fact like in a lot of feedback that I get is like I'm the shining star you know I'm working so hard that's like I'm the shining star of any social and but I get in the car and I turn to my husband and say how did I do like did I do okay like there's no ability to have had any body awareness of like where I was in that interaction and it's been interesting for me coming here because it's a constant like I know I can be myself I know I can be here I know I could like not have my video on or I could you know and I don't know how to be here even when there's full permission like I still don't feel safe because I have created which like wonderfully right created this mask for survival uh that's probably the like the content warning is like I created this masking system brilliantly for my own survival that now that I'm undoing it um because I don't want to be on the couch for three days I don't want to be socially isolated of having to leave an environment because my my nervous system will be set up and I'm literally getting to the point of death and immobility because I can't I have no way to move within that and so there's some for me the stake just becomes I either like sit in the woods by myself or I completely blow out my nervous system but this all brains belong is giving you know and the somatic work I'm doing with the therapist is giving me a third way which is like putting my camera on and like talking tonight and showing that vulnerability and thinking about like Bernay Brown's theory about like joy is the like the hardest emotion to feel because it requires vulnerability and we're in a culture that vulnerability is set up so that we're basically like protecting ourselves before we even know there is needed to be protection like we're using all of this accumulated body um dissociation and um alteration of our like essence in order to avoid being vulnerable which then we don't get joy and so there's something about the permission that's here all brains belong it's like practice for like calling out maybe or reminding I remember there was one session that something was happening and I know that I felt triggered in some ways by it but not like negatively like about the person but I could all of a sudden I don't even know if it was me that you just were like okay let's just like zoom back out for a minute like not to dismiss like there is this way this this play in this dance um that I just wanted to recognize in myself because even with permission even in like the safest space that's been created that I could be and show up for I still don't mistake for in myself I still question I'm still flat on my back when I share and I'm really gonna just like own that now and like I'm in my body and like I'm not gonna shame myself for speaking tonight like I'm really gonna try not to thanks I love love everything you just said and like so so many other people did you were like lots of nods and lots of lots lots of hearts and lots of people typing in the chat saying I can totally relate so relatable like I mean anyway like I think it's like you name the thing and like I mean I'm a big Renee Brown fan also and when I think about the shame factor of like I'm the only one who like can't just do the thing it's like no no it's it's it is a lot of people who feel this just not everyone can can can enter into the space of vulnerability name the thing and like the the the more people name the thing and like you it's almost like um somebody once said to me safety like if you've never like how if you've never felt safe how will you how will you recognize like what the difference is between safe and not safe like you have to have the experience of showing up authentically and and and and and for then to even notice like for me now it's really interesting because as as someone who's also late diagnosed autistic um I you know I didn't even I didn't know how much I was masked I didn't know like at all maybe I was my mask and now um when I say that people are like how do people not know you're autistic so there's like that um but there's also this element of like now when I'm in situations where I feel unsafe I notice it because I don't spend most of my day in those environments anymore and I'm actually affected in a much so it's interesting like I mean like you mentioned you know the the the association and and and and and all of the compensatory strategies that your limbic system does to keep you alive like thank goodness for that you know because because otherwise it's intolerable but but now um you know part of part of unlearning all of that it brings back brain-body connection and sometimes that sucks also like now when I'm in unsafe environments um with social environments um I feel it at a level that I never felt it before it was always that way I just stuffed it I'm reading in the chat um can relate to masking that Amy's talking about so uh content warning being invisible as a masking autistic yeah yeah I used to be so good at masking that after we were married my first partner told me that he wouldn't have married me if he had known that I didn't like socializing when I finally refused to socialize because of what it cost me he said that since people are usually good at what they enjoy he thought that I enjoyed socializing when it was exhausting because of the masking and like Amy mentions no one had the ability to know and I didn't know but I was masking just that I was constantly performing normal yeah yeah I wouldn't say thank you for Amy as well because so I've heard a lot about masking through talking to this group a lot of stealing group where I've heard it probably and every time I've heard it I said oh that's not me I don't do that I've never done that oh well there's other people talking about that no that's not true somehow the way that Amy described it tonight it's like whoa okay actually I have been I've actually been unsafe and almost at all times and then masking to exhausting to grade at every single moment and it's just it's kind of mind-blowing because at first I said something else to say and I kind of got speechless because what Amy said was like oh my god wait a minute I just she named the thing and somehow she named it in a way that we relate so strongly I think that people that have been in denial about masking maybe other people all have just realized it's mind-blowing revelation that feels like it's just so striking I don't know but I guess now I do remember what I was going to say I don't want to change this topic though but I'm just because it was related to when you were talking about ground rules and standing ground rules and I was thinking about specifically about like interactions through zoom teams whether there's social work whatever it is you know this has also happened to me when I tried to engage with social groups as well where they they I guess so-called neurotypical people seem to you know think that it's their prerogative to set ground rules based on normalized behaviors so that the typical standard for how to behave in zoom or teams and there's a bullet you know a list of items and it always says okay sit still you know no distractions you raise your hand at this certain time or whatever or you know that's the only way you can you can interact is to raise your hand if you don't then you don't have manners and and just like you know type in the chat during this time but not this time not that time and then if you're you know having anything going on the background then you're not paying attention and you don't care that's just a standard and then another thing too is breakouts okay as they said this is these are the rules the breakouts you know we're going to ask you like five things to do it once and then you go through a fire drill whether it's good for your brain or not because we all say our ground rule is that it's good for our brain that works so then you can go through that which is really terrible you know what I mean it's just like the prerogative of saying setting the ground rules so what about our prerogative what about what I mean I have I've been an advocate of myself I stand up for myself constantly but in those situations where this ground rule set and it's like 50 people in a group and you don't you don't really know them I have not yet stopped them and said okay wait a minute here's my powerpoint slide about the the all the my ground rules are 100 conflict with every bullet point you have and let's talk about that how can we do that that's a question I mean like that takes a little bit I mean I'm brave but I haven't done that yet I had to go through the you know the brain hell through the breakouts and all those other things and and mask you know I heard I don't know I saw it in the chat the the idea that that masking or a clue to whether or not you're masking is a point of absolute exhaustion and it really brought back my experience the week I took off the last week in July when for my first three days of my vacation like Saturday Sunday Monday I couldn't watch television I couldn't I couldn't focus on anything and my body temperature was fluctuating like crazy and all I did was sleep for three days and and that really helped just bring home that that you know environments can be crafted for every individual and nobody should be that tired because they're forced to work in a system that doesn't meet their access needs and and I think you know it sounds so much like common sense but I think this message that we are slowly starting to spread around is actually revolutionary and you know I'm so pleased to be part of the effort to make access the rule and and it's almost mind-blowing that it's not the rule right but in every in every space in our lives we are only as quote unquote disabled as as there are barriers to our forward to our potential and yeah that's yeah thank you for whoever posted that in the chat you turned a light bulb on in my head I had this epiphany the other day with my patients we had a group medical visit and we're talking about mass cell activation my monotropic focus because I'm always talking about mass cell activation anyway so the idea is mass cell is your your immune systems uh first line of defense to say safe not safe and there's a lot of people with all kinds of chronic health stuff that these mass cells are dysregulated they are unhinged secreting all kinds of stuff into the body that results in all kinds of of struggles and strife the thing is they're correct those mass cells it's not safe so like it occurred to me that like the fastest way to get the people better the fastest way to help myself feel better is to actually leave the unsafe environment I can throw all the medicines of people in the universe but it's unsafe out there now that's making me think of something sorry I can't see everyone so I don't know if someone else raised a hand or something um so I have a particular particular social I call it a barrier but um not barrier um boundary uh I get I I don't I find myself to be a social person but if I don't know people slash it's not safe I but I'm like obligated to participate for whatever reason um my safe space is the snack table because no one will talk to you if you're eating most of the time and that allows my brain to like read the room and kind of like be in the space where I'm I'm I'm present but I'm like inaccessible and I can like like just adjust to what kind of environment I'm in and I mean none of us like I don't think intentionally choose to be in an unsafe space and that time I think allows my brain to assess the level of quote-unquote danger or safety um and it's been it's been something I've I I didn't realize that I did until uh I don't know a year two years ago or something but anyways um in in talking about creating that like that's an example of is there like you know a quiet space or a snack table metaphorically or actual everyone loves snacks anyways that can be a part of an event or you know a gathering that's like that's safe and I think I've experienced that in the zoom videos I mean like I've I've neural lurks and like a bunch of these a few times and Mel didn't really once ever call me out and like make me introduce myself I was just kind of still like reading the room and and everything like that um and so I think the question is you know given the the setting what would be the representation of that of that safe space that snack table but then also like the exit door like I maybe watched too many like um action movies with like people always like looking for like the exit doors or whatever but like also knowing like where's the exit door and how are we making that like not shameful if someone's like nope nope not safe this is like not my energy I'm you know how do we do that at the same time by encouraging people also like you were mentioning Mel and Amy also making example like encouraging the identification of that without shame so that you're better at knowing okay it's time for the exit door like yesterday you know knowing that in that moment so that you aren't you don't end up draining yourself so often. Amen to that normalize the exit door. I have a well I think it's funny I hope other people do too but I did an art project in graduate school for my aunt who had passed away I did an altar like they do in in Mexico and when I set it up in the room I got there late and there was really no space and so I had to set it up next to the door right under the fire alarm and the and the teacher that was running the exhibit was so apologetic oh I'm so sorry you had to you had to put your your aunt's altar in that tiny space and I'm like oh no you're right by the door under the fire alarm it's exactly where she'd want to be and she was brilliant and I look back on her life and you know she was probably neurodivergent as well but right there by the door boom out the minute she needed to be that was her. That's amazing. Hi Sierra. Hi sorry I ran away to get a to get a prop one thing so I recently got married and had COVID during my wedding and it was kind of great because we created a little isolation tent I didn't have to talk to anybody I didn't want to and it was a really cool like experience of kind of intentionally creating that safe space of that like this is a zone where there's no expectation of how to interact this is a zone where you can just come and sit I don't have to talk I don't have to think and I think another way that I see people do that is use things like pins so if anybody's ever in the office we have a wall of pins and two of my favorite ones are please don't crowd me I'm not going to show up very well and I don't feel like talking and so I think having something that you're non-verbally showing like hey this is me and you can kind of create that space in those places it being like hey it's similar to like wearing a rainbow bracelet can create a safe place safe place wherever you are for queer and trans people um like outwardly saying hey you don't have to do small talk with me you don't have to interact in a certain way can create that safe space wherever you are which is a really cool thing that's why we put on our our banner at the at any time we've done a tabling event we put the we put a banner with a sign that says like small talk not required we found that way more people approached the table um yeah and and and speaking of tables um I once put a table at this outdoor thing this summer and people were talking with me and it was like okay but like I it I was done and I I didn't know how to exit the conversation it had been a while like I don't actually get a whole lot of practice anymore at like the exit door because I don't I I kind of have designed a totally a layer layer privilege that I mostly don't have to leave things things leave on their own a lot in my world um but anyway um I I I had been talking about masking I was trying to explain to some parents about like what what it is and like why we need to discourage this and like why it's bad for mental health and like all of this and I was like okay so like I'm gonna give you an example I need to be done with this conversation and it was so hard and I got luck so it's terrible but like I was done I think it's okay just the more you do it the more you realize that nothing totally catastrophic happened by asserting and protecting access needs and almost always when you know if you see someone do something and you're like oh man I wish I could do that just you made it possible for someone else to do it like it's kind of like you know Amy when you shared what you shared like think about how many other people felt safe to shop and do the name the thing yeah and my question is like how do you find the exit door when you're doing something for somebody else okay so I'm a very social person I I'm like I like you know really shine in environments that I choose that I know that I feel happy in like and of course when I'm doing something for my son I feel happy because I'm you know observing something he's doing at the school or a social event or something I'm very happy to do that I love doing that it's such brings so many good memories however in those environments I feel like my example is that I like really don't feel like I fit in at all to the like suburban housewife stereotype and like I I feel like in those events even though I'm enjoying and cherishing the memory of seeing what my son is doing I noticed that I have like a totally different like I have like a defensive posture tactics for people not talk to me as much you know what I mean just what I have to do that type of thing it's like but you can't exit because you're doing something for someone you really care about so how do you you can't really exit I mean I don't know yeah and and I I I wonder I mean I relate to that like I really hard to that and and I I I wonder if if others have any any strategies you know I think that like that's what Lizzie was talking about in the beginning of that video clip about like the visualization of like the the energy bubble the glow or something like you know that's that's that's that's that's an example I think of the same thing of like deciding to not pretend to do the thing that is just so uncomfortable versus you know it's like the swine line between what am I doing out of obligation that's when you leave but I actually want to be here how do I just feel safer while being here that's like a complete like I think you have to decide what path of the algorithm you're on Amy I'm not I'm really still at the very beginning of learning this but I had just been on a trip so I hadn't really been around certain dynamics and when I got back I was in this really quiet grounded space and the minute I started talking to some family members I just could feel like my limbic system just like but I really wanted to check in and talk with them and I got really overwhelmed and I brought it to my somatic therapist and they were basically kind of saying the thing that I've witnessed you doom out which is basically in the moment you could say hey could we just zoom out because I'm really not in the space of being able to hear all the details you're giving me or like like they'll say things like if you're in a social situation and you're not like you're you know you're saying that you're standing in like a certain posture or whatever but in a certain way if like someone came up and you just could feel like I don't want to talk to this person it'd be more like hey I would really love to give you all of my tension and I'm just feeling really quiet right now like all these like little things that I was like I'm so much more would just do the like smile and nod or like social engage but to this I guess why I keep calling like the third way where you can still be with yourselves and also have room to and I think what what I've been learning is like so much of my social interactions I'm reading the room so intently that I've literally lost myself and I'm in everybody else's business instead of staying within my own and what I've been learning is like if I can stay in my own space in terms of my own experience which is really hard and then and then the engagement is what happens between them and me and always for I don't know if anyone can relate to this but for me my real my whole experience is over there it's not here and so now it's sort of like if I can say then then I can follow my values instead of my brain rules I can follow the my values and what I've been learning lately is like my Elsa said to me like oh now that you know you're autistic like like you've always known but or you've known for a while but now that's like diagnosed now you get to follow your values and not the brain rules and when I when I felt into that I realized when I go to the brain rules I go to the person I go outside of myself and when I go to my value I I'm included and I have to say that one thing has changed so many social interactions because I'm not leaving them out because my value would be like kindness like not being rude like all of the the things I think we're supposed I guess we're supposed to do or not I don't know but but what I notice is like when I stay in my values I honor what's happening for me and then I have more room to to communicate in a way that wouldn't be like considered blunt or rude even though you know that's okay to do that as well but it's more of like how do I want to present myself how do I want to be and not get overwhelmed and that that has even though I'm really new at it that might just be a way one way to do it. I can't imagine a more epic way of of wrapping up this conversation because like like Laura said in the chat Amy you're on fire tonight so well said it's so well said like if you lead with your values this is about you and your experience not about failing to to show up in someone else's experience it's your it's your movie and and and and that's not that like that really is such an important brain rule to unlearn that the that the point is to fit in and feel comfortable while fitting in like that's the package we were sold it's a package and um as as as as as Carolyn says thank you thank you for the inspiration uh because I think that you know we we we can all do this thing and you're we're not the only ones doing the thing or all doing the thing um and it's um it's about like you know just just even even if it you know and Nina's example if you're you know at something that that you want to be at but your brain rules are luring you toward like the the the old version of your appraisal the last time you were at all the other times you were at events like this it's not those events it's this event the one you want to be at leading with your values and being in your own experience it's sort of like and I know we're wrapping up but it's sort of like the people on the margins are always the ones who have had to adjust and adapt and if that you can come to a place of I'm not going to adjust and I'm not going to adapt and then I'm going to let the environment to actually show me so I don't actually have to feel safe the environment gets to stay unsafe and I get to remain safe because I can see if there's room and fluidity like if you're on a zoom chat and you stay within that and you say hey these I agree with all these ground rules and I'd love to add these three or four extra ones that would help accommodate me while I'm on the zoom and then that's not met then you get to see wait this is not an environment that's actually just like basically respecting me so how do I want to participate or move because I'm not actually even being respected so yeah amen to that and remembering that you know connection right connection is the path forward and so you know I can't tell you how many times I am in unsafe zooms or I'm like sending secret chats to Laura Lewis or texting with some of my board members like a co-regulation is is what's required you don't have to do it alone and I think that's it's about like creating a new culture where what we're all talking about is not on the margins anymore this this is the culture and which is which is why I'm very excited to say that next month's brain club theme for November is about neurodivergent culture and and and and it's interesting I'm doing I'm doing a LEND fellowship uh leadership in neurovalmental disability um and and there's all this really important discussion about the intersect of disability and culture not yet have I heard a discussion about neuroculture not once yet um and so this this part of um of of cultural competency is like unlearning the like um the the the the oppressive messages um that are are driven at um coercive assimilation that in a way that is traumatic and unsafe and bad for health and so forward see you next week bye everybody thank you so much