 ThinkTek Hawaii. Civil engagement lives here. Aloha. Welcome to Mina, Marco and me on Energy. I'm Tim Apachele filling in for Jay Fidel. Today's show we are fortunate to have as our guest Public Utility Commissioner to be Jenny Potter for the second part of the show that took place some time ago. And we're also going to talk about recent events on the island of Hawaii, the impact of lava flows that's having on the Puna Geno Thermo Venture Facility. It's a safe bet that Marco Mangelsdorf and Jenny Potter will bring discussion points that you won't see in the news or read in the newspaper. And without further ado, welcome to Jenny and welcome Marco. To be on with you and to be on with Jenny again, thank you so much Jenny for joining us today on this Aloha Monday. And yes, I mean there's no shortage seemingly always about topical energy issues here in the state of Hawaii and in this particular case in the Big Island especially. So I thought I'd talk a little bit about to kind of kick things off as far as how this lava activity is affecting the Big Island in terms of power generation. I mean we know of course that thousands of people are being affected and have had to be leaving their homes and there we just went up to more than 100 homes destroyed as of earlier today and that could easily go up rather dramatically with this wide lava flow of a half a mile width that has already hit the ocean in Kapoja which has hundreds of homes. So it's really this ongoing disaster for so many people and it's very, it's really unsettling for I think anybody anybody on the island whether you're close to the volcanic action or on the other side. But in terms of energy the Pune Geothermal Venture which has been operating since 1993 for 25 years has been providing firm power to the Helco grid for decades and according to the piece in the Sarbatizer yesterday by a good piece by Rob Perez prior to shutting down earlier this month or excuse me about a month ago PGV was providing somewhere close to 30% actually 29% according to the Helco data. 29% of the power generation from the beginning of the year which was the same figure 29% that had provided last year for all of 2017. So Helco has to obviously bring additional generation reserve generation online which they have been doing and they have been assuring us that there's plenty of reserve online or available to bring online so in terms of rolling blackouts that's not on the cards fortunately but unfortunately with the loss of such a substantial component in terms of the renewable energy provided into the grid not just for the big island but especially the big island but also for the state writ large that it's going to mean inevitably for for the foreseeable future it appears that more fossil fuel in the form of petroleum products will have to be consumed here on this island to make up for that PGV shortfall. For perspectives and Helco is leading the state in fact in terms of renewable power generation these past years creeping up to close to 60% of all power consumed last year close to 60% was coming from renewables and that was the highest in the state by far I don't know how much they're gonna be hit but I can imagine somewhere in the 10% range although I haven't really crunched the numbers so you know it's interesting we've been drilling into Madame Pele since the early 1980s when there were test boars that were done in that area it took a dozen or so years to finally get a power plant online over the very vigorous objections and and protests of folks who believe that it was a bad idea from a from a number of perspectives and there are a number of them are saying well you know you can only drill into to Pele for so long before she takes issue so however it's interpreted PGV is down and I happen to believe it's probably down for the count because I just don't see personally the popular support nor political will to bring it back even this is assuming that it doesn't get overrun by law but which is a very real possibility so that's kind of my intro I guess about the topical issue that we're dealing with right now and maybe turn it over to Jenny as far as what what you see Jenny in terms of the impact of losing geothermal the only geothermal plant on the in the state as far as affecting the state's overall efforts to to get to the Emerald City like a target of 100% renewable for power generation in 2045 so I take a turn over to you yeah I think that you know this is a great question because we often forget about sort of what the public interest is when we when we look at different types of fuel sources and we're thinking about building additional generation facilities or whether it's you know going to be distributed and I think like you mentioned that there are there's some real real opposition to bringing it back online and and it's getting and commissioning more plants that would utilize the geothermal there's there seems to be several articles have been published you know in the newspaper around that where people are like we're gonna march in the streets you know it will not be it won't be Jenny Jenny may I interrupt for a second and I'm sorry can you clarify what the opposition is about is it about the air quality yes okay thank you I think there was some opposition in regards to the proximity of the plant to residential neighborhoods that was a big concern and and I think that you know it was commissioned despite those concerns but bringing it back online given what you know what's happening with madam Pele is is probably going to make it a much more difficult style so you know who knows probably I don't know I speculate that it's it's done but my concern is you know how do we get to a hundred percent how do we fulfill our renewable portfolio standards after this incident when you have these resources that are so they're so complete you know we have done we have went but geothermal is really a nice firm resource and there was a lot of assumptions built into the PSIP and other models that we would increase the amount of geothermal on the various islands not just you know Hawaii energy or I'm sorry Hawaii Island so I think that that it's disconcerting and like we mentioned you know that's it probably about 3% of our overall RPS right now is coming from the Puna so that's gonna we're gonna have to make that up with other types of resources so which which can be challenging because siding wind and solar is is also very difficult you know given the public interest around how we're utilizing our space on the islands and what I think also is worth noting guys is that a number of years ago helco did a request for proposals for additional geothermal on the island and there were a number of bidders and the winning bidder to add if I'm not mistaken another 30 megawatts of geothermal were there about was Ormette the same folks who own the PGV plant so they were awarded a contract from helco after a competitive bidding process to bring another 30 megawatts online at that same location and there was I won't say dancing in the streets there but there was another this is going to be seen as a positive step by a lot of people to further have the big island be more energy independent well sometime went by and lo and behold the forks at Ormette the folks at Ormette said no can they effectively said we can't go through with this based on what we propose therefore we are pulling out now I'm not privy to all the details as to why exactly that that was the case but that's in fact what happened so I guess it's just kind of illustrative of how you know geothermal I don't know if I would call it a gamble but there was a reason that and this is of course before anybody knew that all these fissures were going to open up along the eastbound right gobbling things up but there's a reason that Ormette backed out right now I think it again kind of adds to the the pretty strong or reasonable conclusion that geothermal in that area certainly if not the rest of the island is highly doubtful I think it's well mark you were at you raise a good point you said in that area aren't there areas on West Hawaii and then on Maui that actually could be candidates for for geothermal I can't speak to Maui because I know less about it yeah my point would be in terms of candidates yes there has been discussion about the flanks or the saddle area between Mauna Loa or other volcano there on the west side which rises to about 7000 feet but here's the thing there has been a pushback by folks who are anti-geothermal against even what I'll call passive survey work not talking about doing test boreholes which is more significant but just doing testing with equipment where you don't have to even dig in the ground they have pushed back on that in any to do any type of survey work in any depth pun intended in terms of additional geothermal on the silence but to me it just shows the depths and breaths of those who are anti-geothermal who don't even want to let the proverbial camels nose in the tent right far as even allowing passive survey work to be done in possible hotspots okay see I mean as everybody's pointing out you know it's certainly it's a fluid situation that needless to say when you have lava still coming to the surface and doing what it's doing and I mean whether PGV is going to be there a day from now a week from now it's all up in up in the air and you know one of the reasons why it has received so much concern over the decades is the possibility of essentially a blowout of a wellhead that would not be controllable and there have been worst-case scenario planning that go back to the night early 1990s that in the worst case you would have to do an evacuation next number of miles fitting maybe going as far as cow which if you go as far as cow in terms of the radius you're talking tens of thousands of people so yeah that's worse case and we don't know but again you know I go back to five weeks ago who is considering who is thinking about the likelihood of 24 or more fishers in the east rift zone would do what they have been doing for the past four weeks it's the unknowability and mystery of the primal forces of primal forces of nature whether you want to ascribe a deity to them as in terms of Pele or or non-personal it's the inherent unknown of living on this earth in terms of natural events that have been happening for millennia right it's not stunning well I think the question is also how long can this go and we don't know nobody does yeah so right there's no end really that we're assuming at this point for this it's unbelievable it just keeps opening up to shift away from the the lava and fury of Pele here maybe let's kind of go back to our conversation that we started a number weeks ago you and I and Jay Jenny in terms of you're going to be the next B.C. Commissioner and by my count 2026 27 days I think you actually do you take an oath on the first day or have you already taken an oath because you officially start on July 1st if I'm not mistaken is that correct yes exactly which is a Sunday so I'll take the oath on the 2nd of July 2nd of July so you'll be there at the Capitol and the governor will say now raise your right hand and you'll say to promise to do all kinds of wonderful things and the to the benefit of Hawaii consumers and ratepayers and the environment all kinds of stuff like that I mean I'm kind of making this up it's something like that right something like that exactly yeah I'm not sure that it's the governor that doesn't know if it's going to be Randy you want to say the chair or is it going to be Mike McCartney or is it going to be you know I don't I don't know so that's that's up for I'll know when I get there I guess just be pleased you'll show up and there will be somebody there who will be more than willing with a big smile on their face and one or two or three or ten late to put around your neck like high school or college graduate right where you can barely see over the flowers exactly yeah that's kind of how the Senate confirmation went to so that was pretty cool I was piled high I love that custom it's such a great you know thing that we do in Hawaii with the place it's just really special even though it's kind of a steamy day you can kind of feel a bit you know all this all this yeah yeah it's a little bit human but so let's let me go well hang on Marco because we're gonna take a commercial break here in about well right now actually so let's get to the questions as soon as we return I'm Andrea Gabriele the host for young talents making way here on think tech Hawaii we talk every Tuesday at 11 a.m. about things that matters to tag matter to science to the people of Hawaii with some extraordinary guests the students of our schools who are participating in science fair so young talents making way every Tuesday at 11 a.m. only on think tech Hawaii mahalo hey hello everybody thanks for joining us on think tech Hawaii I'm your host Andrew Lanning the security guy I host a program called security matters Hawaii and I hope you'll join us on Fridays we air at 10 a.m. and we're gonna be talking about those security things that really should be important to you and you know maybe get behind the scenes on some some things that you may not know about the industry or about products or even about your habits I'm security is all about people processes and products and we hope to bring that to you in an informative and hopefully a useful way so again 10 a.m. on Fridays security matters Hawaii on think tech Hawaii join me thank you welcome back I'm Tim Apachele and I'm here with Marco Mengelsdorf and Jenny Potter and we're discussing well the recent events on with the lava in Hawaii and and now we're gonna talk about some other issues that you know pertain to energy issues for the state of Hawaii so thank you for holding on there and welcome back thank you you know in my life and I think most people when you're when you've got a new job coming up or you know you've been you've been accepted to graduate school or you know things in life that are there a change from from the way you've lived life in the past whether it's relationship whether it's getting into school whether it's starting a new job it can often be kind of an anxiety producing experience so I'm wondering what if anything has you feeling a bit anxious and or excited about becoming the next commissioner and the Hawaii Public Utilities Commission that's a that's a great question I think I can talk a little bit about the preparation that I'm doing because I'm a I'm a good planner I'm a good you know I can definitely I am going to be in Honolulu most of the time so I did have to rent a place there so I will be coming home on to Maui over the weekend and these are all things that we had to figure out you know whether I could live in Honolulu should I sell my house you know how am I gonna go about doing this this job and because I do live in Maui so you know I rented the space in Honolulu that I'll be at the majority of the time so that within walking distance I go from the commission I'm actually gonna get an electric bike and according to cool I can get to work within 10 minutes which is cool I'm gonna be walking the walk so not just talking that but yeah I mean there's been a lot of details to figure out you know furniture and a bed and place you know and I'm although I'm living here so there's there's been a lot of anxiety around that preparing to take the position there and be in Honolulu you know a life over there essentially and I'll leave my family here and you know Maui to continue living so that's been kind of tough and then there's those moments too where I'm like what am I whether it was expected of me as an you know to be an effective regulator what does that mean so so actually Mina had sent me a wonderful link to a website that has papers white papers about effective regulation and you know actions of efficient regulators and she said that you know she relied on that heavily so I'm reading through those essays job well so there is anxiety you know in terms of that I feel like I should be spending more time reading dockets but I have a job I got to do right now so so it's them it's taught trying to be in both and Randy was a the two commissioners who you'll be serving with have been very they've been great yeah it's they've yeah they're they're just amazing people and it's it's great Jim Lazar who has done a great deal of work here in Hawaii in particular around cost of service and revenue requirements and all of them gene topics but he he said that we're going to be the most progressive and amazing you know com the commission in the country and he said Minnesota follows on that but you know with you and Jay on there it's going to be great so I'm excited to me what do you think the thorniest issue will be when you you get you hit the ground running what what policy issue do you think is going to be the thorniest to basically take on the performance based initiative for HECO is going to be challenging I know that we have legislation that was just signed around that and then we also have an open that's going to be really challenging to develop incentives that are going to motivate but basically you know taking that from other effective regulators we need to align the private interest with the public interest and you know performance incentives can do that but we have to really have a vision for what it is we're trying to accomplish in the name of you know the public interest so I think that's actually going to be really challenging we don't want to hurt HECO and too much we want to help them you know but we want to make sure that we're we're serving the people in the interest of you know Hawaiian Hawaii citizens so so yeah you've done a lot of market research in the past and you've done a heavy research about what the market is kind of what they want and what they hope to expect will you continue in that path important to get you know I'm going to definitely be more in the details I think just because I like them and I think that we need to pay attention to how consumers are participating in with the electric utility and providing services to the grid and what we can do you know on the demand side rather than the supply side to get to 100% renewable and I definitely am invested in being creative around that and and really trying to invoke participation from HECO customers Maui electric customers that whether it's seamless to them and they you know plug-and-play and they don't actually notice changes and they just allow for you know the energy market and grid needs to you know change their water heater take turn it on and turn it off you know or whether they're actively participating in a real-time pricing kind of initiative I think it's important that we bring the people of Hawaii along and and definitely develop a closer relationship with them so that market research and the work that I've done there I hope that that comes and supports some of you know the broader initiatives that you know we come up with along the way so something great approach well this may kind of put you on a spot a little bit Jenny and you can of course deflect as you need to if you look back to the docket that was open to consider the acquisition of Hawaiian electric industries by next era the Commission adopted a fairly open door policy in terms of allowing virtually any and all comers to be the interveners on that docket at one point there were I believe 25 or 26 which is probably something of a record that performance-based regulation of PBR docket which has been opened there are now from numbers taken 11 parties who have asked either be an intervener or a participant I'm not sure if that decision the world whether your fellow commissioners to be will wait until you get on board or whether they will decide with Lorraine Akiba in the in the days to come but keep you do you willing to kind of tip your hand in terms of your philosophy at least with the PBR docket as far as whether it should be kind of open door allowing as many as the 11 who have applied or or to keep it more kind of focused amongst the smaller group so that's that's a great question and one of the things that I understand about being a commissioner is you know we evaluate facts and and information that's provided through the docket process and we really have to rule on those that information that's provided and that would be that would come from interveners and it would come from the general public and to some degree but the facts that are presented during that docket are those are the ones that we have to make the decision based on right so ultimately to me you know the more people that participate and can provide input about these really tough and you know initiatives that I think is helpful because it provides us with more information and more hopefully facts about you know about how to make a decision and each docket so I would be supportive of having you know more interveners through those processes rather than because because yeah they a lot of them do their own research and then bring it right table and it's more analysis that we can consider and so that's really helpful well given given the the depth and breadth and the complexity of something as significant as effectively imposing a rather different business model on a private company in terms of how HECO and HECO companies do their business do you have match in terms or many in terms of concerns as far as what we'll call the discovery process which I believe the commission is referred to essentially as phase one over I believe is with a dozen or one fewer than a dozen participants interveners not including the consumer advocate that things could be turn into something of a circus in terms of information requests flying willy-nilly going in all kinds of interesting directions is that much of a concern of yours really I think that I think that there can be limits that you know if you ask the right questions and if you you know present questions around that you know that you have a vision for that are decisive and you know that can can help inform the decision-making process then it shouldn't be too difficult I think you know I think that yeah I don't I don't think so I think it'd be okay okay well that's that's encouraging question here in the time we have remaining how would you judge the success or lack of thereof the success of this past legislative session relative to energy and regulatory issues I think I'm gonna have to pass on that one because you know I'm not it's saturated as I'd like to be in what happened in the legislature in the last year so well we have would be I'm sorry we have less than a minute left and so Marco do you have one one one more question for I mean I'll just reiterate that I think the governor's choice in you Jenny was was a home run by far and I think this is the first time that we'll have that as far as I know in least my being a regulatory watcher so to speak that we'll have two people who are who grew up so to speak you and and Jay Griffin deep in the weeds in terms of the the technical matters the regulatory matters that really important as further into the 21st century and since the utility of today is far different the utility of even ten years ago let alone a hundred years ago and in a sony in days so I couldn't be more pleased that the two of you will be there along with Randy a was a totally diverse and complex and exciting and turbulent you guys also do transportation and communication so this is no I think it's a big part of your portfolio but I think that we'll have a fantastic lineup with that three of you thank you so much I really appreciate your vote of confidence I think that you're right though it's going to be an outstanding journey Jenny thank you very much for taking the time to join us Marco thank you for all your insightful questions that's all we have for today I'm Tim Apachelefin and filling in for Jay Fidel and we'll see you next week