 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Okay, welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook. This is episode 137, Bob. Oh my God, are you leading soon up to my house number? Oh, don't give it away. 531. That's a long way to go. What we're going to be talking about in this episode is the danger of assumption in the therapy process, which links in I think quite well to the last one. Yeah, you know, I spent, well, I saw my last client when I was 69 and I started seeing clients when I was 35 and I can't quite work out the maths, but before my clinical career, I attempted to move away from the world of assumptions because once you move into the world of assumptions with clients, you're onto a road of, well, it's a difficult road because if you start assuming things invariably, invariably they're wrong and because no one's had your experience and invariably you set the path, usually the opposite path to healing. Yes, yeah. The path to a repetitive cycle of their own history. Yeah, you know, the truth of the matter is it's very, very, very, very hard to work from a place of lack of adjustment, lack of assumptions or judgment because in the western world particularly, we think, you know, we think all the time in the realm of assumptions and judgments, judgments positive, judgments negatively, assumptions positively, assumptions negatively, that's the way we think all the time. Yeah, yeah. Move away from that takes, well, it takes quite a lot of skill really. Yeah, for me, when I think about assumptions, I always think about being in the here and now and taking what I'm seeing in front of me without, you know, looking to my past for reasons for that and just being curious. Yeah, so curiosity demands open questions. Yeah. The curiosity demands a phenomenology inquiry, demands a real sense of openness and how you ask that. Yeah. The question. Yeah. I certainly agree with you. I certainly agree with you, curiosity, exploration, inquiry, there are all good methods to take your way. Sometimes we can literally just get all to the wrong end of the stick through making assumptions about what a person is saying to us. So you made an interesting statement right at the beginning when you said, when you think of assumptions, you think of being in the adult eager state, in other words, that you won't be, I think, now you can contradict what I think you were saying, I'm quite happy for you to do. I think you were saying something like, if you're an adult eager state, you won't be making assumptions. Yes. So let's define adult eager state then. Just for the listener's sake, because they might not be CA people. Yeah. So from a CA world, Eric Burner was the originator of transaction analysis, it said, and he split the personality into three, parent eager state, adult eager state and child eager state. Then when the person is coming from the adult eager state or the adult part of themselves, they're acting appropriately to the age they are. So I'm 73, so I will be thinking, feeling, behaving from the 73-year-old of me and not younger self or some sort of moral duty part of myself. I will be coming from the age-appropriate part of myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's how you see adult. Yeah. And responding and reacting to things in the moment as they're happening, as opposed to predicting the future or reliving the past. Yeah. So what you're saying, if you are on your adult eager state, you won't be making assumptions. Yes. That's a very good way. Now, I think a really good tip for the people to think about who are listening to this podcast. The next question, of course, is about how we know whether we're in our adult eager state or not in the first place. That's very good because I used to think I was in mine a lot of the time before I started my training and I realised that I'm not in it that often. So we may often think we're in our adult eager state, appropriately to the age my 73-year-old, and actually we're not another part of ourselves altogether, but we're not aware of that. Yes, yeah. Now, TA, that's called contaminations coming from a part of herself, and we think we're in our adult, but actually coming from some sort of parental belief system passed down by our significant other people, or we're coming from a younger part of ourselves, even though we think we're coming from our adult. Yeah. So often, I think we make assumptions from our younger part, but we think it's adult. Yes, yeah, yeah. I think that's very common. Yes, I do, too. Which, again, without being critical of ourselves, it's easy done. We fall into it. For me, I just think sometimes in order to be in our adult and in the here and now, we've got to have our eye on the ball 100% of the time because as soon as we veer off, we're going into our past or trying to predict the future, and we've lost it. We're not there anymore. And I think the best thing if we find ourselves in the world of assumptions, and we are perceptive enough to be aware of that, we check it out with our clients. Yes, yeah, yeah. Well, is that how you see it then? Yeah. Maybe XXX, is that how you understand this? But the trick of this is we have to be aware enough when our adult enough, that's the bit, and that's the hard bit, I think. Yes, yeah. Very easy to move into assumptions. Assumptions you're correct usually come from parent or our younger self and not from adults. It's a very good way to look at it. Yeah, yeah, because the other thing that I think as well is if I'm having a feeling or a reaction, I'm not in the here and now. That's a brilliant, could you say a little bit more about that then? So, well, let's see what you say before I maybe ask. I just think being in our adult is a very logical place to be. I see it as kind of information in, information out. If I'm having a reaction or a response to something, I need to attach that to something personal to then have a reaction to it, if that makes sense. Okay, so here we are. Here's a sort of question to you, really. Yeah, okay. Okay, see, a client comes in the door, you sit down, the client sits down, and as you go to sit down, you step on a drawing pin which has been left there inadvertently by, for whatever reasons. And as you step, your foot goes down on the drawing pin, you scream out because of the pain of the drawing pin. Yeah. Right, and you go, scream out. Now, would you say then the description I've just said then is from an adult geek estate? Yes. Right, let's take the same example again. So, the client sits down, you sit down, and your foot goes down on the drawing pin, and then you scream out and go to a three-year-old tantrum. Yes. There's a difference. Absolutely, and I was thinking that it's the immediate response after the pain that is in the here and now. Who the bloody hell's left that there or whatever it is that comes straight after it? Yeah. And it happens so quickly? Yes, that's the thing with the shifts. It does happen so quickly. Yeah. You think you can feel that you've come from adult, but actually you're a three-year-old whatever you're going into. Yeah. That's a sort of extreme example to how quick this can happen in many different areas. We think we're an adult, but we're not. Well, as you're saying that, I think my head would explode before I was an adult all the time. I know I couldn't do it. No, I don't. See, that's the thing I was going to get you. I think that exactly, that we're shifting all the time. Yeah. Our assumptions, and I agree with you here, is in the world of the younger self and the paradigm of state. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's being consciously aware that we do it. That, to me, is the big thing. If we're denying the fact that we make assumptions, I think we're doing ourselves and our clients a really big disservice. Huge disservice. We need to check out everything. Yeah. Yeah. World of neurodiversity in the world of difference, in the world of cultural implications or whatever. We make assumptions we're lost. Yeah. What I mean by that is we're lost with our clients. Yes. And even as you're speaking, I'm thinking, I know with some clients I feel uncomfortable if I need to check in with them and ask them. But that in itself is me not being in my adult. I've gone into my child because I'm feeling anxious about raising something with a client. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just another level, another layer in the therapy room that we need to be aware of. Yeah, because if we're making an conscience, you know, assumptions, sorry, and we're not aware of them, the client, several things can happen. The client may feel missed. Yeah. Yeah. They may feel they're not important. Yeah. They may feel that they're defined. They may feel they're not heard. That's what I meant when I said we will lose our clients. Yeah. Stay in the world of assumptions. Yeah. Yeah, the therapy is ineffective. It's not, absolutely. Yeah. You often and often leads to adaptation by the clients because they're adapting to fit into your assumption. And you'll never know it. Yeah, which again is a wormhole that you don't want to go down. I'm not sure whether we've done this or we've spoke about it or it's one that's coming up, but there's something about is anything real in the therapy room? And sometimes I feel like that's what goes on in the therapy room. There's so many different facets to everything. Oh, let me give you another different facet. And we may meander off a little in this podcast with this facet, but it's in the world of what we're talking about. And that is when our non-verbal behaviour is contradictory to what we're saying. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's a wormhole for you, isn't it? Absolutely. And you don't realise it until you witness it, until it's happening in the room. Yeah. So you're thinking you're an adult, but actually your non-verbal behaviours indicate you are. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think, I think in terms of therapeutic healing I'm saying unfortunately. A lot of the attachment by the other or the trust by the other is a response to non-verbal behaviour, not to what is being said. Yeah. I'll tell you what I mean by that is that the other person, first instinct, I believe, I was like Osmosis, is to pick up on the non-verbal aspects of a person in front of you, rather than what the person says. And certainly if what the person says doesn't match with the non-verbal behaviour, you will lose a person in front of you. Yeah. When you're saying non-verbal, do you mean the feeling that they get? When things like you say hello is really pleased, you're really pleased to meet you. However, your left leg is shaking or the extreme agitation and scare that you've just walked in from an argument from your wife or whatever it is. Whatever's happening, or that's one example, you shake somebody's hand but your hand is very clammy or there's not any handshake or there's agitation in the handshake, doesn't match up with the words that you've said. Yeah, yeah. I get what you're saying. For me, what sometimes happens is I just get a feeling. I have a reaction, they're saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting from them. Usually, I think that feeling is a response to non-behaviour or non-verbal. Possibly, yeah, yeah. I've just not recognised that that's what's going on, yeah. And assumptions often said cognitively that the behaviour of the person is very different. Yes, yeah, yeah. Because even just the physical aspect of a client, we can make assumptions about them. What is it, the first five seconds of meeting somebody, we make a first impression of them? That's fine. What about in the world of Nick, I've got a constant TA again. Gallows laughter. We make assumptions, don't we? Yeah. My wife loves watching a television programme. I don't know if it's still on. It's a reality TV programme. It seems to be on all the time, but I think it's ended. We've got another lot coming up. I think it's Marry the First Sight. I love that programme. So far, the Australia, whatever it is. And for people who don't know, it's a reality TV programme where partners marry at first sight. And then the old experimental project at Everland Accords for the next 36 seems forever, where they sort of work out whether they want to be together or to stay married. Now, a lot, a lot. When you watch this, when I watch it, episodes of this particular period, a lot is built on assumptions. Yeah. I think you should do that, Bob, because the professionals are rubbish at matching people. I'd be good at that. I was going to say, I think you should be on the board of that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm sure there's psychologists and psychotherapists behind the scenes, but I think sometimes the matching is completely tense. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. So what we're going to talk about next time, which I'm presuming this is one of your better ones, and you can take the lead on this, Bob, is therapy like chess, because I know that you love chess. I know these are all my titles. Oh, anything that's got football in it or chess in it. Yes, this is one of my titles. And it really means if you, oh, no, I'll wait until the podcast. Wait until next time, but you might have to explain this one to me in that one, Bob. I just, I saw this one and I thought, yeah, that's definitely Bob all over. This is, this is very much a podcast for me. Okay, okay. Right, until next time, Bob, thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.