 And for me, that's what I find so fascinating about all this is, you know, I speak to businesses now and I teach them how to take all of this stuff that you and I have such a love for through the game of basketball and apply these same principles. Cause anything we're talking about now with Hoops, you can, as you said, you can apply to relationships, you can apply to business, you can apply, it's all the same type of stuff. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, good to see you brother. Yeah. So we share something in common. We do. Both love to Hoop. Absolutely. Yeah. Or at least love the game. I don't play much anymore. Yeah. Hoops has been a major staple of my entire life. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Got your Larry Bird shirt on now. Got to represent. His head is actual size. I know it is. Which is perfect. Mustache, intact. Yeah. Kids today don't know how good he was. Yeah. I mean, he was. See, I was a Maddie Johnson fan. Yeah. So I think in my mind, my distemperment and dislike for him. For sure. Probably made me underestimated but I always knew he was a worthy foe. Yeah. Absolutely. And even Magic says that. Yeah. Yeah, Bird got it done. His injuries cut it all short. I think he could have been even better. And that's something that players were really good then but we didn't know shit about the body like we do now. We didn't know shit about fueling athletes. We didn't know shit about the training, the performance nor really the mindset principles which is probably why you had such a, I guess it's still one of the major separators because kind of everybody's getting, not everybody, but most people are getting the information about how to care for the body because trainers are getting up to speed and even the team's working with us here at Onin and Exos and stuff like that. But then the mental side of the game that is still a big differentiator. Yeah. And it's the big differentiator in everything we do. Right. And that's the one thing, yeah, that that's why sport will cross over and transfer into anything. But can you imagine? I mean, I would have loved to have seen what Bird ate on a regular basis. You think he did any training? Do you think he even bent down and tried to touch his toes to pretend to stretch? I bet he just jumped on the court and he started getting loose by shooting. Maybe like one of those billet holes. Yeah, absolutely. There's like a couple loose ones. The cable guy, Jim Carrey, like doing the suicides real quick. But yeah, I bet that'd probably be it. But yet still played at a high level. So that part's remarkable. Yeah, and like what could he have done with more explosive training? Of course. Like the faster first step and then made people respect that a little bit more so that his jumper was a little bit cleaner, you know, just like, who knows? But that wasn't around then. So he was still doing the best with what he had at the time. Now, today, if you're not doing it, there's no excuse. It's simply apathy, you know? Because all of the tools and the knowledge and the training is there. So if you're not doing it, that's on you. Yeah, I think that's one of the things that, you know, like the level of the game itself has just evolved. And people always have these debates, like, oh, what if so and so was back? I was like, yeah, yeah, they were really dominant then. But you got to understand how big, fast, strong, lean, lanky, you know, like ferocious, all athletes in all sports are now. It's tenfold. It's amazing. It's just another level. And I think the stars would cancel each other out. I think if you go back 10, 15, 20, 30 years, those stars would still play today. But I think it's the depth that has increased. The 15th man on the Golden State Warriors today is 20 times better than the 15th man, even on the Showtime Lakers back when you were a kid. Like the level has gone up. A lot of that's what the international play. I mean, just the game has grown so much because of those guys, you know, with our age bracket with Bird and Larry and Jordan, they took the game to a global level, changed everything. But yeah. And how have you seen, so that's obvious, it's really obvious to see that on the physical side, but how have you seen that translate to the mental side of the game? Because, you know, even when I was growing up, you could talk about being on fire, like being in the zone, but nobody really understood that. Nobody was talking about flow state. Nobody was talking about some of these, you know, neurotransmitter patterns that were coming up that, you know, are associated with being in the zone. Yes. You know, or like actually playing at the top level. No one was actually quantifying anything there. So it's just kind of words. Absolutely. And now they are, so now folks can train for it. I mean, all of the NBA staffs have a mental skills coach or someone that's going to help with that portion of it. Cause they realize it's all of this stuff and it'll be interesting to see what's next. I mean, you guys are on the cutting edge of all that. So you'll probably predict it as much as anyone, but it's pretty phenomenal just to see where it's going. Yeah. So like there was a study that I read about in which they were, they hooked people up to brain scans and then they would measure them as they were shooting free throws. And as they would make free throws, they would maintain an alpha state, which is kind of that flow state. And when they would miss one, they would get a spike in beta state, beta frequency, which is associated with kind of stress and kind of being out of the present focus. And I think that's, you know, interestingly, like that's something that you really start to learn through sport, like you learn when you can release. And it's this kind of momentum confidence game, but if you can actually translate that. So when I talk to fighters, like, you got to get a fighter particularly, you can't let them work into the game. You know, you can't like hope that they make the first shot or land the first punch. Like you got to get there. Not in fighting, you can't. No, you got to get there. You got to get there on the walk. Yes. So it's, it's about talking about that. And I'm sure it's kind of the same for you. It's not weight. It's not having your players wait for, oh yeah, I sunk my first two threes. Now I'm in the game. You know, like you can't wait for that. It's too random. Be ready cause you're not going to have time to get ready. Exactly. So you have to be in that state. Especially if you're coming off the bench too. You know, like you're coming off the bench, you can't wait to make a few shots. You got to come in there and perform. That's, I never had seen that study. That's pretty interesting. When I was on talking to Kyle this morning, I told him a story about the first time I had met Kobe Bryant back in 2007. What I didn't tell him was at that skills academy, Stephen Curry was actually one of the college counselors and it was after his freshman year at Davidson, which is before he blew up. No one knew who Stephen Curry was after his freshman year, not even the coaches at this camp. They all just called him Dell's son because his dad played in the NBA. But I remember there was a few things really remarkable about him, but the most impressive thing was at the end of the first workout. And we were there for two workouts a day for three days. It was a mini camp with Kobe and he came over to me just based on proximity. And I had on one of those shirts that said coach on the back. And Steph said, will you rebound for me? Cause I don't leave the gym until I swish five Fritos in a row. Swish five Fritos in a row. I don't know how many of your listeners play basketball, but swishing five Fritos in a row is an incredibly high standard. I mean, that's- I mean, I had a high standard, I thought. And that was I had to make three three-pointers in a row before I would leave the court. And that is a high standard before. Yeah, but that's an incredibly high standard. But that's way easier than five swishes. Yes, and I remember there were a few times where he would swish four in a row. He'd hit a little bit of the rim on the fifth one. So it still goes in. He's still five for five. He's mathematically perfect, but that wasn't good enough for him. He'd start over until he'd swish five. And I don't think it ever took him longer than maybe 12, 15 minutes to swish five in a row. But it's funny when you just brought up that study that reminded me that, I mean, he was conditioning himself to be in that state. He was conditioning himself to do that to not accept anything less. And, you know, one of the reasons I think he'll go down in history as the best shooter we've ever seen, despite the fact I'm wearing a bird shirt, is his ability just to move on to the next shot. I mean, it doesn't happen often. He could miss 20 shots in a row. He'll still beg for the ball when there's two seconds left and the game's tied because he always believes that the next shot's going in. And that's a hard mindset to get to. That's, you know, and that's something that you see even in the greatest of great players, sometimes is deficient, you know? I mean, I think LeBron James, well, obviously is one of the greatest basketball players of all times, but I think that's something that I think, not just me, but a lot of people have kind of noticed, especially earlier in his career, there'd be times where he'd be like, yeah, maybe I don't want to take this final shot, you know? And like, that's not something you see in Steph. No. No, it doesn't mean Steph's better. You know, LeBron obviously has other characteristics that are, you know, excelling and phenomenal, but it is a very unique thing, even amongst the elite of the elite, you know, to have that like, oh yeah, the best chances for the team are when I have the ball. You know, it's that unflappable confidence, even if you've gone one for 10 that night. And that only comes from preparation, you know? I mean, demonstrated performance, that's what it comes from. When you know that you've switched five free throws in a row every day of your life, since you were 10 years old, you're pretty cool going to the line, like you're going to be fine, especially if you've done some of the other, you know, mental practices and stuff you talk about, about living in the present moment, you know, that's what it comes down to. But that's where I think the game is evolving to the point where now it's the cerebrals, every bit as important as the physical. I mean, the physical is just not going to be good enough anymore. What are some of the things you do to help people get into the present moment? Because as I was saying, you know, you can wait, you make a couple of shots and then you can kind of really be in the flow, you know, or wait till you get in rhythm in the ring and then you're in the flow, but how do you get there prior to any activity? Well, there's three steps that I talk to folks all the time. The first is the one I just mentioned, which is you just focus on the next play. You can't do anything about the one that just happened. Whether you made a three pointer or you dribbled it off your foot, it's over now and you have to move on to the next play. And especially in a game like basketball, you know, you miss a wide open layup and you're in your feelings and you're pouting and you're trotting back with bad body language, your man just scored an easy layup on the other end because you chose not to be present for just a few seconds. Can't afford that. The other is to put all of your focus on the only two things you have control over, which is your effort and your attitude. You know, live in your effort and your attitude. Effort I always find incredibly fascinating because people admit and acknowledge that giving a good effort is a choice. Like you choose to work hard, but that means by default, you also choose not to work hard. There has to be another side to that coin. But you know, you ask any normal human being, if you call them out and hold them accountable on why they didn't give a good effort, they make excuses. I was tired, I was this, I was that. You still had the choice whether or not to give your best effort. And these guys condition themselves to give their best effort. I mean, no one does it a hundred percent of the time, you wouldn't be human, but I mean, they're almost infallible with that. And then same thing with attitude. Attitude in my opinion is all about feedback. You know, I try to look at life. I mean, life's the most important thing we have. So I don't want to trivialize it, but really life is nothing but just a series of at bats. Like this podcast right now is just another at bat. You had lunch before, that's just an at bat and everything gives us feedback. Internally and externally and we get feedback. And what we choose to do with that feedback determines how successful we'll be. So no matter what type of feedback you get, you can use it in a way that serves you and moves you forward. So when Steph misses a shot, he's able to quickly analyze why he missed that shot and he'll make sure that he'll make a correction. I mean, it's a little easier on a free throw when you're going to replicate two shots, but you don't see Steph Curry miss short on a free throw. He sure as hell ain't missing again short. He makes an adjustment because he uses and processes that feedback. And then the third pillar is just focusing on the process. Don't worry about the wall, focus on laying each brick as perfectly as you can. And if you lay each brick perfectly, the wall's probably gonna take care of itself. And if you can do those three things consistently, I think you're more apt to be in the present moment. Yeah, I think all that makes sense. And so let's go back to each one of these. So I think there's lessons and things to expand on all of them. The first one is I think one of the problems is, is that coaches and the world reinforces the fear of doing your best and still failing and them judging you. Like you could be giving an all out effort, diving on the floor, bleeding, but you know, with my high school coach, you miss a shot that you normally would make, which is statistically going to happen. You get pulled out of the game, right? So like it doesn't matter that anything else, other than the statistical probability that every once in a while you're gonna miss a layup. And then, but when the penalty for that accident is severe and you get embarrassingly pulled out of the game and ridiculed, well, it's gonna pattern even more fear. And that fear is gonna pull you out of the present moment even more. And it's funny that people are just kind of now waking up to this a little bit. Like I remember I've told this story in my course, go for your win, but it was a really impressive moment where Pete Carroll was squaring off against Mike McCarthy. So Seahawks, Green Bay Packers, and it was a playoffs, I think leading up to the Super Bowl. And Russell Wilson was just having a dog of a game, like really rough game, three interceptions, something like that. Every time he would throw an interception, he, you know, Pete Carroll would be there and like clap him, smack him on him, like come on man, we got this, I believe in you. And just believed in him the whole way. Packers were way out ahead. And then the Seahawks started to make a run. And as they started to make a run, he saw on the other side, Mike McCarthy getting more aggressive and more angry and more like fired up, you know, in the wrong way and instilling his team with fear, whereas Pete Carroll was just enthusiasm, kind of the whole way. And it ended up, you know, with a kind of like this turning point moment was they needed an onside kick because they were that far behind, kicker kicks the ball, they're sure handed tight end, this guy bostic, fumbles the ball, clearly he's not trying to do that. And then so the Seahawks get the ball back. Well, they still got to go whatever 50 yards to, and they got to score a touchdown. So instead of like firing up his defense, he goes there and he just starts lighting up that guy bostic, like in his face, like talking shit, like how could you, what's wrong with you, about a ball, like he meant to do that. Right, of course. And like that's gonna help him the next time, you know. And like his defense didn't need the same pep talk, like, hey, here we go, they got the ball. No fucking problem. You've stopped teams better than this before a million times and you're gonna go out there and you're gonna fucking stop them this time. Absolutely. Right, and so like that whole framework thing was, you know, just he was having an off moment or that's just part of his old, old school mentality. And what happens, of course, well, Seahawks fucking march right through that, march right through that defense, like a knife through hot butter and score. And game over, season's over. You know, and I really feel like that was like a key thing where that coach mentality was able to change the outcome of the game. And the thing is, all right, most of us don't have actual coaches now, but we're all our own internal coach. So we can have our own positive internal coach and we fuck something up in a relationship and in work and whatever. Absolutely. We can either be Pete Carroll or Mike McCarthy. We can either tell ourselves how horrible we are. Yes. Or get ourselves fired up for the next one. Learn the lesson and move on. But you know, I mean, that's the crazy part. But I mean, what you just said is what our whole society does, which is value outcomes instead of the process. I mean, you know, as a basketball player, it's either a good shot or a bad shot in the moment it's taken. It has nothing to do with whether it goes in. It has to do with time and score and the player taking it and their range and all of that stuff, because you can clearly miss a great shot to take. That was the best shot our team could have gotten and we missed it. Or you can throw in and make an awful shot. And yet we still reward that. I mean, I have young kids, so they're playing basketball now and it's the parents do what all parents do. They clap when the kids make a shot. They don't clap when they don't. So we're, once again, we're reinforcing the outcome, which is the wrong thing to do to little kids. So now they're thinking, well, I only get praise when I make the shot and that's not what should be going through their mind. It's a good or a bad shot the moment it's taken has nothing to do with whether it goes in. Now statistically, you'll make a higher percentage of good shots, which is why we want you to take them. But that's a problem. I mean, I think Pete Carroll, any coach that goes over and pats their player on the back after they made a mistake, as long as it's not from apathy or lack of effort, which it wasn't like you just said so perfectly. Because that's the thing that you're able to control. You didn't try to fumble the ball. No, fuck no. What does he want to do? Be embarrassed in front of everybody? Letting his teammates down? No. He was trying his best. Absolutely. So fucking give that guy a hug. Yes. Like don't, don't like, and tell the defense, look, our teammate, our brother just made a mistake that we know he feels awful about. We've got his back. We're going to make sure that doesn't define our season. We've got his back. We're going to get a stop because we know how much this meant to him. Yeah. That would have been, yeah. And again, he's in, he's an NFL head coach. So, you know, he obviously done a lot of great things. He has. So and won a lot of Super Bowls, whatever. I'm not trying to talk shit on him, but I just, this was an observation of a moment. And we all have moments. It happens. It happens a lot. Yeah. And that's, and we all do it to ourselves just ruthlessly. Of course. You know, it was interesting. Like, so one of my biggest sports moments in basketball was I got called up. We had a top 25 nationally ranked high school team and had Chris Mim, who was a center of play. Of course. And the NBA for a while had this guy, Luke Axel played for Texas and Kansas. And so two like big time marquee players. Mim was like a seven foot center even in high school. So I got called up from the JV. And this was right after a big ankle injury, too. So I like got an ankle injury right at the start of the start of the season, came back, played a tournament, just shredded whoever I was playing on the on the JV side. And then the coach called me up because they needed some outside shooting to kind of keep the pressure off these collapsing two, three zones on our big seven foot. So calls me up and really the coach, you know, he was super old school and basically he was like, I'm going to call you up. You're going to shoot a three. If you make it, you get to stay on varsity. You missed it. You don't. I was like, all right, sweet. Glad you didn't add any extra pressure to you. Like, I'm not worried about being a Californian moving to Texas. This is my first time on a big Texas high school sports venue where we get hundreds, sometimes thousands of people watching our fucking basketball games and it's in the papers and it's announced on the fucking PA system at the school. And he put pressure on top of pressure. Yeah, that was a thoughtful guess. But anyway, so, you know, I remember that moment where he called my name and I knew it was coming in and that walkout, just the heartbeat. And I knew then I'd played enough basketball. Like the first thing I have to do is make physical contact with somebody. Yes. Like, because I've so, I got so much. You got the jitters, man. Absolutely. So like, bump somebody pretty hard either on a screen or just as they're moving through to set a screen, you know, make some physical contact. Not enough to draw a foul or anything, but. Yep. And after like, okay, so did that and the ball goes and again, collapsing two, three zone. There's always that spot on the wing, you know, so I just set myself up there, point guard drives, you know, the defense kind of collapses to him, kicks it to me, I shoot the shot and it was like the most slow motion thing that I've ever seen and it goes in and just to feel my audience go, you know, go create. I've never had a fan base like that. Even JV games is like, there's like seven people for a JV game and like 700 for a varsity game. It's a big difference. Then I got so excited, right? So the ball goes down the next time and I get it in the corner and I just wing like an air ball that goes like five feet too far. Cause I was just so fucking fired up. Absolutely. Call me, I got pulled out of game after that, got it back in again, at least I made my first one and then was able to sink another shot. So went another three, so went two for three that night and that started the season. But it was just, it was really interesting watching how, you know, my life changed based on something that wasn't really in my control. Absolutely. And when I look back on that, sure I shot a lot of threes, I didn't leave the court until I made three threes and all of that contributed, all of that was there. But it was also just kind of like these, one of these moments where you feel like in that time I was just, I had like help or something. Like I was just like in flow or in the grace of the universe. Like that was part of, part of my path was to play on that team. For sure. For whatever reason. And even looking back, I don't say like, I made that shot. It's just weird how I look at that now. I was like, oh yeah, that shot was made. Yeah. And that shot was made because it was supposed to be made. And then it was remarkable how quickly it can change too. Cause then you said a mere few seconds later you're landing in the third row of the bleachers. And yeah, so think about that. Like that's, that's remarkable. But as coaches, I mean, the job should have been to make that process as easy for you to eliminate as many distractions, not add sugar on top of sugar and say, you make this or else. I mean, that's the last thing that you'd want to tell especially somebody young, you know, they don't know. But that's, you know, and for me, that's what I find so fascinating about all this is, you know, I speak to businesses now and I teach them how to take all of this stuff that you and I have such a love for through the game of basketball and apply these same principles. Cause anything we're talking about now with Hoops, you can, as you said, you can apply to relationships, you can apply to business, you can apply, it's all the same type of stuff. You can have that same fear mentality as a boss. If someone makes a mistake and misses something, you know, you're going to fire them or you're going to rate them publicly or whatever when they're trying their best, working hard, you know, doing things. Yeah, right. If they're careless or lazy or whatever, then, you know, get on their butt a little bit. That's fine. But we do the same thing. We have this result folks, oh, well that campaign didn't work with this thing. And then people are playing out of fear, then they hate what they're doing. Absolutely. You know, that coach that I was talking about didn't, no matter how good our teams were, we never want to playoff game. He never want to playoff game the whole time he was there. Interesting. The reason why is because he was so ruthless on the players that, and people hated playing, and there was a mix, because we loved the game and we loved our school and we loved our teammates, but we hated practicing so much, we hated that there was this appeal to the season ending for one, because like, oh, we lose this game. It's a pressure release. Poof, we don't have to deal with this. This guy can be yelling at me no more. How sad is that? And two, by leading up his own pressure that he put on himself, because it's really just a mirror of the way that they treat themselves. You know, when Mike McCarthy fucks up, he treats himself just the same way he treats Bostic, and when my coach fucked up, I'm sure he treated himself the same way as he treated our team, you know, came from a military background and whatever. But that's not healthy either. That's not healthy, yeah. Like, you gotta show yourself some grace and some compassion. Yeah, exactly. So what would he do leading up to the game? Well, we would have double practices and like, double work and then like, double fucking suicides leading up. So our legs were just shot before all our big games. So I was like, thanks, coach. Like, I can't even jump today. You know, like, this is great. I'm glad we stayed up till midnight running sprints. Exactly. For what reason again? I don't know. You know, and so it built this kind of negative feedback loop. Absolutely. Which was really unfortunate. And I think one of the secrets on its success and my success here is that I realized that to do anything, well, you gotta love, you gotta love. You gotta keep the love in there. Yes. You gotta keep the love. And so if you're a parent coaching somebody, if you're a boss leading a company, like you gotta keep the love alive. Yes. Like that's a priority. Absolutely. And I can tell that from the moment I walked in here yesterday because it's palpable. The culture that you've created here because now you've created something where you attract like attracts like. So you've attracted people here that want to do things that way, that have an equal affinity and a love for the things that you are passionate about. And that's the thing I think businesses need to learn. Figure out your identity. Who are you and what is it you're trying to do? Let's collectively create some standards that if we all live up to these standards, we'll live this out. Let's have enough compassion and care for each other that we hold each other accountable for these things. And that will be our culture. And then when you have a great culture, you attract the type of people that wanna be here. And the people that aren't a good fit, they're not gonna last very long here. If one of them slips through the cracks, they're not gonna last very long because they don't wanna be around people that are in the on it culture, people that are growing mentally and physically and emotionally, people that are all about pushing themselves and pushing limits, people are about serving others. If you're a negative Nancy, you don't wanna be around people doing that. So you'll just leave. Yeah, I mean, a parasite can't thrive in an optimized immune system host. No, absolutely. It wants to go to a weakened disease. Then that's where it's gonna flourish, right? And someone with a parasitic mentality is gonna wanna find something that also is the right host for their mentality. Whereas the opposite is true. If you have a healthy organism and a healthy and all healthy tissue, then it's gonna support that and actually defend itself naturally against those other inputs. And we've seen that. We've seen our organism expel splinters before anybody had to fire them. People are just like, ah, yeah, I'm out of here. I appreciate what you guys are doing, but it's not for me. Cause I wanna complain about my job and be a victim and go home and drink a lot. And that's not, you know, that's not really conducive to here. It doesn't fit here. And the higher your level of care and the higher level of trust you've built, then you can hold people to an even higher level of accountability. It's all proportionate to the depth of the trust and respect you've built. So again, like with your coach as an example, he doesn't form that bond. You don't know that he truly cares about you as a human being off the court as much as he does. Like I'll care about you if you make this three. If you don't maybe not so much, then he's not able to hold you guys to the standards and the level of accountability that's required to win a playoff game or to win a state championship. So, you know, that's why the best coaches, I mean, yes, they get on their players and they're incredibly demanding. The best bosses do the same thing. You know, you love working for them, but they're really hard to please, but they've also created that relationship where you know they care about you and you know they want what's best for you as well, not just for the team. So then it's that relationship and some people are just missing that. They're so skewed on the other end of the seesaw that it can't go up on the other side. Yeah, I think, you know, people, power is like a, it's a poor substitute for love. You know, like love actually can compel right action. You know, but power is like the cancer-causing artificial sweetener version. You know, of how you make the cookie, right? Like it can have some of the same effects because it can get people to do stuff and of course power, you know, using fear and power and you know, the coach had artificial power. You had the power to whether to play us or not to play us, whether to leave us on the team or not leave us on the team or all of this natural power based on his position, power that he didn't earn. He was given granted power and then he just used that with fear as the motivator, but you know, you see someone like P.K. Oh yeah, he was granted that job by, you know, by the team owners and whatever, but he's also inculcating the love, the love for him and the love for like, and even, you know, even you see like the sons of other coaches that don't even have that kind of enthusiasm that he does but you can tell that the players like genuinely love and like Phil Jackson, for example, right? Like there was a true love even though he wasn't that same kind of like encouraging guy, but there was just this level of respect and a mutual kind of love that you felt or Pat Riley or some of these other people that were a little harder and you know, a little less, but the players still played out of love. Absolutely, you know, and like, and there was power there too, but really there's nothing that's gonna motivate you or motivate anybody more than love. Like that is the force that drives the greatest action and love does not contain fear, you know, right? Like so to really maximize the amount of love you gotta really eliminate as much fear unnecessarily as you can. Absolutely, create a safe environment and that's what you need. And that's the difference between having authority and actually being a leader. If you're leading with love, then that again, the like attracts like, you're gonna get people that will run through a brick wall for you because it should have been the inverse. It should have been you wanted to make that shot so bad because you didn't wanna let your coach down because he means that much to you. Yeah, because he gave me a chance. Yes. He was like really caring for me and he was, how is it, you know, being a California guy and Texas moving in like, no, it's a lot, but you know, know that you're gonna get your chance, you're gonna get multiple chances, you know, we're gonna work with you and make sure if you're ready for this level, you're gonna be here. That would have been a totally different experience. Absolutely. And I learned it as a young performance coach, but then I've translated that to business now, which is the golden rule of you connect first, you coach second, has to be in that order. You can't, X's and O's mean nothing if we've not created any type of bond or connection, there's no trust. You don't know that I care about you. You don't know that I've got your back. I mean, ultimately that's the most important stuff. So that would have been his best move. The day you moved to Texas would not have been, let me see if this kid can make a three or have any footwork. Let me hear a little bit about your journey. What brought you to Texas? Let me like bring you in and develop a relationship with you first and then you'll develop that love where he can get hard, he can be hard on you and he can hold you accountable and you'll be fine with that. But coaches skip that connection part and the connections were same with bosses. I mean, connect first, coach second, it has to be in that order. And then the transition to one of the other things you're saying is remove the outcome dependent, happiness, sadness, praise, punishment, right? Like that was one thing that, one of my best friends and actually one of the first person to put any money into honor raised like a hundred grand to start on it. And then I got 60 of that from Bode Miller. So he was an Olympic skier and national champion and one of the really unique things is he completely discarded the external validation of whether he won or not. He just literally only cared about how he skied. And if he skied the line that he wanted to ski and whether he was doing what he needed to do, whether he trained the way he needed to train, whether he sent it the way he wanted to send it. And he had all his own kind of rules around what that meant. And he knew what would affect his performance and what wouldn't, it wouldn't matter what people said. People were like, don't have any beers tonight before you ski, it'll fuck you. He was like, no, I ski professionally. I'm actually the best skier ever to come through the United States. Like I actually know what affects my performance and I'm paying attention and these beers don't. So I'm gonna have them and I'm gonna ski. And actually, by the way, fuck you because I don't care if I win or not. I just care if I ski my very fucking bet. Absolutely. And coaches and everybody, parents and whatever, it's not like that. It's not like you go out and for the most part and play your best game or run your best campaign or do the best you can and it doesn't work, which naturally is gonna happen all the time. Of course it is. And you still are enthusiastic about it. Like, yeah, fucking really, we sent it. Like we gave it our best, we were on it. That's true life. Yes. And it's remarkable that he was able to do that because that's an incredibly challenging skill, especially someone that was in the public eye and had as many people looking at him as he did. But I'm a big believer, feedback is inherently neutral. It's just, it's sterile, it's unbiased. It's just feedback and it only becomes positive or negative or good or bad when we associate feelings with it. So you have to learn how to depersonalize it, which I'm making it sound incredibly easy. It's not because we are human beings and we have feelings and emotions, but yeah, that's all that it is. And no matter what that feedback is, can I take whatever it is and find a way to use it to get better? So if it is feedback that most people would consider good, okay, then I need to double down on that. Whatever I did for this performance down the slopes, I need to continue to do that because it worked well for me. I skied one of my best times. If I didn't, all right, let me unpack that. Let me go back. What could I have done different? What was in my control that I could have done to ski better next time? And every time you're leveling up. So it really doesn't matter whether you win or lose, it matters whether you're paying attention to the feedback so that the next run down the slopes is better than the previous one. And it sounds like he's got that down pat where he could say, I can have three beers tonight and I will skate. Ski the best I've ever skied tomorrow. And he knows that. And I've watched him do it. I don't know. I know. I've watched him do it. But that's incredibly impressive. It is really impressive. And it's something like, all right, so let's apply this to my real athletic days are over. I'm still like train and have fun and whatever, but I don't have people watching me play, which I miss, by the way. It does suck not having anybody watch you play and anybody give a shit. We can shoot some free those after this. I'll cheer for you. All right. I got you. Yeah, so one of the things, so let's apply that now, like where do you get feedback that you're not willing to look at? I can apply it to my life right now because I'm a professional speaker. So I speak to businesses and at events. And most of those, there's actually a feedback component. The attendees fill out a feedback form and they give it to me. So these people are going to say what they liked, what they didn't like, what they got out of it, what they didn't. And I'm getting much better at being able to take a beat and saying, first of all, this doesn't have anything to do with whether they like me or not. And that's irrelevant. I'm there to do a job. I'm there to add value to an audience by sharing with them things that I believe will help them be the best versions of themselves or improve their business. But let me take the feedback that I get from them and let's find what I can use. So if folks say, hey, we like this, you have great energy. Okay, well, if that seems to be a common theme that a lot of people think is valuable to them, then my energy is probably something that I want to continue to maintain at a high level. If there's something else that I'm doing that may be distracting or a portion of content that they don't resonate with, it doesn't mean I throw it out because that's the other part too about feedback. You might have just had the worst morning of your life. Your grandmother passed away last night, your dog was sick this morning, you got an offender bender and you give me a scathing review as a speaker. That's probably more of a reflection of how your day's going than how I did. So I have to be very careful of that too, but I'm gonna look for trends and I'm gonna look for things and say, okay, if a lot of people are saying this, this might be something to take a look at and maybe make some improvements in the future. But you also have to be careful of where the feedback comes from because you have to know the difference between opinion and someone's technical skill. Like some guy off the street might not be qualified to tell me how to be a better professional speaker because he doesn't know what it means to, he can say whether or not he liked me, that's his opinion, but feedback's a different thing. So I just try to remain, keep my eyes and ears open to it. Well, it's unbiased and your ego uninvolved. Absolutely. And that's like, I'm here to learn. Yes. I am here to learn, period. And you apply that to whatever the fuck you're doing. Absolutely. I'm CEO here to learn. I'm not God given granted from the Pharaoh's tit. Right. You know, here to lead Egypt to glory because I'm God too. And all of this crazy idea, you're here to learn and get better. So take the feed, appreciate the feedback. Everybody gets so obsessed and you hear so many people talking about the haters. Oh, who cares? Okay, that's a type of feedback. Absolutely. And a lot of times, that is purely a reflection of them, right? Like I remember seven, eight years ago, I started talking about probably eight years ago, really openly talking about ayahuasca and the ritualized use of plant medicines for the benefit of spiritual, psychic, mental, physical growth, you know? And I remember when I would start talking about that on social media, everybody would just, not everybody, lots of people liked me, you fucking druggie. Go back to the jungle, you fucking druggie, blah, blah, blah. It's a pretty polarizing topic. Right. And then a lot of people were like, wow, that's really interesting and blah, blah, blah. And so the people just calling me a fucking druggie. Like, you can't worry about, I didn't go hit them up and start a Twitter war with these people. You're not gonna change someone's mind on social media? But there was other people who would be like, they would say intelligent things, like, yeah, just be mindful that mindful of the centers and mindful of the intentions of the shamans and don't be careful of over-promoting because there's a lot of people looking to take advantage. You take feedback like that, like, oh yeah, you're, for sure, I'm a little enthusiastic about this. I gotta really present both sides. And actually now when I talk about it, I'm as much in the discouraging side as the encouraging side because there's so much natural encouragement. Like, yeah, fucking be careful and go to the right place and be mindful of all the things. But there's ways like feedback that you should ignore just recognize that you're triggering things in other people, these people who have biases and are scared of their own demons in the shadows or whatever. And the same thing that's happening now in open relationship when I talk about open relationship, I mean, just get lit up for no reason online. And you can't let that stuff bother you because again, this is eight years ago, me talking about ayahuasca, I was a fucking druggy. Right now, I'm a fucking everything. And then eight years from now, all right, we'll see. But you trust your truth and you know what you're talking about and you listen to people and you understand and respect and get that, but it doesn't have to bother you. Right. But I imagine that was, was that a difficult process for you to get to to the point where it didn't bother you? Okay, so about that it wasn't, right? Because that was like, but areas where I'm a little, areas where I'm a little insecure, those are the areas where I take it, I take it, it hurts. Of course. Right? So like, so one of the things that I'll just use a fairly recent example, one of the things that I got in, I was insecure about, and this was like maybe two, three years ago, something like that. I have a lot of friends who are comedians and they're really fucking funny. Yeah. They're just like funny like this. And so I was a little, I'm not on all these podcasts with all these comedians and I was like starting to get insecure that I'm not funny enough to be on these podcasts, right? And so like somebody came up and I was on a comedian's podcast and somebody started talking about how not funny I was. And that one, like, that one stung. That one stung for a little bit. That one stung because it, I agreed. Yeah. I agreed with what they were saying, right? And so I was like, oh yeah, I am not funny enough. But if I didn't have that mentality and like now I acknowledge, and part of like getting over this is acknowledging where you're insecure and acknowledging who you are and not needing, I don't need to be funny. With the self-awareness. Just self-awareness, be like, yeah, yeah, all right. I'm not as funny as these fucking guys. Right. That's okay. They're professional comedians. They're comedians. They're hilarious. That's awesome. I don't need to be that. I like to follow things up with just so. So I'm not that funny. So, yeah. I mean, it's a lot of this stuff. I mean, a lot of the stuff I picked up at your weekend in Santa Monica. You know, I'll tell folks, I've been doing the cold showers. I haven't missed a cold shower since Santa Monica. Amazing. And it's, and I still don't enjoy them by any stretch of the imagination, but I love how they feel when I get out. But I'll tell someone I'm doing that and they'll say, no, I can't do that. It's just too cold. It's cold. I'm like, yeah, so it's cold. Right. Yeah. If you intermittent fast, so you're a little hungry in the morning. So? So you're a little hungry. Like why, why does just because you're hungry mean that you have like, I don't understand. So, and for me, that's been a liberating mindset with some of these things is we have these mental constructs. It's like, oh, well, if I'm hungry, then I absolutely have to eat. Or if that water's a little bit too cold, then I have to make it warmer. I'm not funny. Oh, I'm going to go take an improv class because I have to be funnier. Why? Yeah. I think that's probably one of the, you know, if you're going to put any characteristic of like, all right, like what makes Aubrey, Aubrey and like, I think it is the characteristic of looking at something I'm fucking terrified of and recognizing that, okay, there's benefit actually if I go through this, whether that's a really intense plant medicine ceremony or switching from, you know, a very comfortable monogamy to a very scary open relationship or whatever a really intense sweat lodge or the cold shower, cold plunge or whatever. Making you do an open mic or a comedy mic or whatever. Yeah, I actually am planning to do that. Oh, awesome. Good for you. Because I'm a little scared. I know, but I love that. You go ahead first. So, it's just understanding, like it's asking that question, like so. All right, so I'm a little scared. So I know there's value in the transcension of that fear. There always is. If you have fear, that's not like actual danger. I'm not putting my hand in a fucking tank of black scorpions, you know, like that's actual danger. Don't do that. Not smart, you know? But, you know, I need to get over my other fears. And if one of my fears is not being funny, well then come up with a couple of bits and go to an open mic. Like for sure have to do that. And I think that's, because I know there'll be value there. And I know that, yeah. Even the process of self-judgment and even that process of self-reflection, even showing up the next, wherever the medicine comes, it's gonna come, it's gonna come at some point from me overcoming that fear. So you almost start to switch the whole way you look if you're like, oh, cool. I have a fear around this thing. Oh, cool. Gives me something else to talk about. Gives me something else that's gonna be another springboard to an even better version of myself. And I know myself, I know that when I see that, it's gonna be like, yeah, yeah. And it's actually, it's interesting. And I have all the compassion for people who have a different mentality, but it's funny when people have a sticking point. Could be singing or it could be speaking in public or it could be whatever. It's like, it's an interesting thing. I'm like, no, I'm too scared of that. And you're like, but you could just do it, but you could do it, or I'm scared of the cold. Yeah, but you could do it. Absolutely. Like you're capable, but it's, because they're convincing, everybody's convincing themselves that they don't have that superpower to overcome these things that they know would be beneficial if they overcame. Absolutely. And I find that fascinating. So Brad in here is an incredible endurance athlete and I've already seen him do some remarkable stuff, but one of the things, a hurdle I'm trying to cross over is I do have some limiting beliefs. I have some initial negative self-talk. He was saying, he was considering doing a hundred mile road race, like running on his feet for a hundred miles. And the first thought that popped in my mind was like, I can't do that. And then I'm like, that's not a good mindset to have, but see for me. You might be right, but it's still might not be the right mindset. Right, but I need to find out. Right, but I need to find out. But see, my mindset now is if every day, if I'm doing a little bit of something that I fear, and fear might not be the right word, but a cold shower or the intermittent fasting or doing some of these other things, I'm gonna slowly over time brick by brick condition myself to be able to beat that mindset. And you are right. I might not be able to run a hundred miles, but why would I give up before I've even given it a chance? And that's what I'm worried about myself is that's the mindset that I have. So I'm trying to find a way to kind of inch closer to that. So at the very least, when he tells me something crazy he's gonna do, my initial reaction is I can't do that. It's gonna be, okay, let me consider that or I'm gonna do that too. But I think these little step forwards are a huge help. So. Because they apply universally. Yes. Like people, you gotta look at love as a universal and fear as a universal. And any little way that you can increase love increases your love universally. Yes. Like you love a pet a lot. Yeah. Like that's gonna increase how much you love your wife. Absolutely. It's just because love is universal. The more love you feel, the more love you're gonna have. Absolutely. And the more fear that you have, the more fear you're gonna have universally, the more fear you're gonna have that your wife's gonna leave you if you're afraid of fucking cold showers, right? Absolutely. Like fear and love are universal things. And we gotta understand that our goal is to start to tackle and conquer the unnecessary fear. Now, this is not, again, recognition of danger. Everybody tries to pull. Of course. Well, of course, fear's important, man. Yeah, I got it. Understand. It's to help us recognize danger. It's a cold shower. I'm not fighting a rapid Wolverine. Yeah, exactly. It's cold shower, bro. It's helpful for you. Yeah, absolutely. That's the type of fear I'm talking about. It's not sharks in the water. It's a shower. I got you. Yeah. So, you know, but as you start to tackle and you start to shrink the universal fear and expand the universal love. I mean, I'm feeling the effects of that. Like, I mean, it's happening and everything gets a little bit more rosy colored and the fear has a little, a few less fucking spiders and barbed wire and stings to it because there's just less of it. There's less of it out there. And you prime your day, like, all right, I start my day doing a couple of things I don't really want to do, but I did it. And there's gonna be a few more things today that I don't want to do, but oh well, throw them on the pile. Taking a pebble out of the fear pile. Yes, and putting it on the other side. Yeah, throwing it in the volcano to be emulsified in love. Absolutely, and create some momentum. Yeah. And that's what, I mean, basketball's a game of momentum. Life's a game of momentum. Life is a fucking game of momentum. Of course it is. And that's another thing I was talking about recently on these cold showers, like, we need pattern interrupts. You know, so even in basketball, like when a coach calls a timeout, you know, like a well-timed timeout is a pattern interrupt. Like if a team is like starting to like really heat up, better to call the timeout before the fucking place goes. Absolutely. And then it makes even worse, and then everybody's just partying for two minutes as the timeouts there, like just getting more excited. Like call that timeout a little earlier, you know, like stop them before the run, like have your instincts there and have that little pattern interrupt. So before you get back to your whatever situation where you're gonna be frothing angry and pissed off and shitty with people and then have to spend the next fucking week or seven years of your life apologizing for being a shithead, well maybe try the pattern interrupt a little earlier, call your own timeout, do your cold shower and your breathing or your hard workout or your sauna first as a little pattern interrupt. And like we need that, teams need that, everybody needs that because momentum can carry you. The algorithm that is organism can take over and all of those things can just build and you'll just blow up if you don't call your own timeout. Yes. You know, and find those tools that you can to kind of break that up. And you'd end the run quickly. The other team's going on a run and you call timeout and you just casually bring the team over and say, hey, they're going on a little bit of a heater. We're gonna nip this in the bud before. Like there's no, but what most coaches do, they wait till it extends. Now you're down 15, you call a timeout and you berate your players for 90 seconds. Tell them how awful they are. And then you send them out with less confidence than they had before. You did nothing to prepare them to do anything better. You've made it worse. That's awful. But that's how most coaches use them. Meanwhile, the other team is like, oh yeah, we got them on the ropes now. Look, we made them call a timeout. Look how red his face is. Look at him, he's screaming at him. And that's the, those are all patterns that you can learn in sports and then apply to our own life. I tell businesses all the time, like it's important if you have regular set meetings throughout the week. First of all, I think most companies have way too many meetings. I mean, way too many meetings. They're colossal waste of time. And I always tell them they should view meetings the way basketball coaches view timeouts. First of all, you're given a finite number of them. So you can't have unlimited meetings. You get X number of timeouts this game. If you use them all in the first quarter, that's on you that you don't have any later. So be strategic about it. Second, let's make sure we have an incredibly detailed plan because we only have 90 seconds or 30 seconds to execute this. So this is not gonna be an open ended 60 minute all hands on staff meeting. This is gonna be only the people that need to be here are gonna be here and we're gonna keep this meeting as brief and as purposeful as possible. And then what's so important is you wanna make sure everyone leaves the meeting in the emotional state that you want them to return to whatever it is they were going to do. So you don't berate your players before you send them back out on the court. Now they go out there with their tail between their legs. It's worse. Coaches mess that up all the time with their halftime talks. The best time to get on your team and be highly critical is when you're playing really well because the collective confidence is high. You're gonna be rather bulletproof to it. So you just had an amazing first half, Arbor, you played great. I can get on you about the two possessions where you didn't box out because you're gonna be open to that now as opposed to you just went 0 for nine. You had the worst half ever. You're already, you know, you've already been beaten down and I'm gonna come in there and scream and f-bomb you and make you feel worse. No, get on your team more with higher scrutiny when they're playing well and then give them the care and the love when they're not doing well so you can return them to that state. Same thing in business but people, they keep getting those things backwards every time and it's a shame. I remember one halftime. This reminds me of this. One halftime, our coach goes in and he goes, he tells one of our players who's had a bad first half. He goes, if I were your fucking family, I would disown you. Right? And he goes on this fucking rampage, right? And like all of us are like, what the fuck? Like that is like ridiculous. Like if I was the school, I would expel you. If I was your family, I would disown you and I should just kick you off the team right now. And I was like- That's gotta help. That really, that really helped. Yeah, we went out and killed it that second half. Our spirits were really high. We didn't have any fear in our system. We were playing out of love there. Good job. There's so many other ways you can approach that. And again, it's all to the level of trust and care you've built. So again, and it's also about knowing your team. So if I know your personality and I can say something, hey Aubrey, yeah great first half man, you got one more rebound than me and I'm wearing a suit and tie. You think you can get a few more rebounds this next half? Man, I know you got it in you. You were a dog in practice yesterday. I know you got this. Imagine that versus I'm gonna disown you. Like it's night and day on how you're gonna get someone to respond. And it also, it changes the patterns. Like parents who are, parents who punish, they're over-punish their kids. You know what they do is they create a bunch of fucking liars. Yeah. You know, you create a bunch of fucking corner cutting, you know, appearance giving, lying motherfucking kids. Yes. Good job. Now you've broken the trust bond. They're not gonna tell you shit. No. They're gonna be sneaking out every chance they get. They're not gonna talk to you about, hey, should I do these drugs or not do these drugs? Because if you talk about drugs, you're grounded for a fucking rest of your life anyway. So you've just created a really antithetical situation. You think you're being a good parent, you're gonna pat yourself in the back? Nope. You're being an asshole. You know, like cause your kids now can't trust you for guidance in life. So who are they gonna go to? I don't know. They're other homies. Yes. You know, who don't know shit anyways either. And so I'm gonna praise you when you get an A, but I'm gonna berate you when you get a C or a D. I'm not gonna ask any questions about whether or not you, so now you're gonna cheat because I'm gonna copy off this kid's paper so I can get an A, so my dad's not gonna come down on me. Cheating line, figuring out whatever way to create the positive outcome because you put so much fear. Because all that I've shown that matters is the outcome. You've put so much fear into the fucking system, you know, like, and it's just building that mountain and that mountain is gonna play out into their family life, into their professional life, their whole thing, they're gonna have these patterns of mistrust and lying and it's gonna project eternally, you know? And like we just, there's very simple principles. But meanwhile, what we're talking about in school is remembering the date that some fucking treaty of Versailles was signed or some shit like that matters. Like I can't Google that shit anytime I wanna fucking figure it out. You know how long it takes me? I don't know, as long as it takes me to fucking type it in my phone, I got this shit. I don't even know when the date is. And I'm 43 and you know how many times someone has asked me that since I graduated? Yeah, zero. But how about like communication and love and fear and like not having shame, not being ashamed to look at your mistakes because you're not gonna punish yourself because you haven't internalized this world's self-critical conditional love bullshit so that you can actually look at when you screw up and be like, oh yeah, I screwed up, cool, I'll be better next time because I'm here to learn. And that's the only thing I'm responsible for is doing my best and learning. That's all that matters. The same thing, if you're my son and you come home and you have an A, a few Bs and Cs and then an F, most parents are gonna be focused on the F and gonna say, okay, now we need to get tutors, you're grounded, we're gonna do something to get this. Why pay attention to that? Why don't we look at the A that you got? Let me see what subject you got an A because one, you probably like it. Two, you probably have a natural talent for it. So why don't I find something to double down and improve the thing that you're already showing something that you're good at instead of focusing on, you know, for me as a parent, as long as it's not out of disrespect, as long as my kids are respectful and they do what they're supposed to do, I'm not too worried about the grades portion. That stuff will all figure it, it'll all just figure itself out if they do what they're supposed to do. And if they have this mindset where they're open to learn, the learning is way more important than whether you can regurgitate it on a test, that part is irrelevant, but that's the outcome. So just know, you have to learn. When we ask like, how'd you do? You know, we're really like, no, Joanne, you lose. Yes. Really the two questions we should ask any athlete or, you know, I want to hear this, is I've got four. You have four? Yes, that I ask my kids all the time, but I want to hear what yours is. Well, I think really the two things are, do you do your best? That was one of them. And did you learn? I love it. And like, should also probably, did you enjoy yourself? You know, okay, well then, yeah, you've got my list. So I've got eight-year-old twin sons and a six-year-old daughter. My four rules are, one, make sure you listen to your coaches, two, make sure you're a good teammate, which at their age, it's kind of like, hey, make somebody else smile, give somebody a high five. Three, did you have fun? And four, did you give your best effort? As long as you do those four things, I'll keep paying for it, I'll keep Ubering you there, I'll keep doing everything I can to support you. If you're not going to do those four things, then there's no point in doing this. But the funny thing is, if you do those four things, if you're coachable, if you serve your teammates, if you have fun and you do the best you can, you'll end up being the best player you can be. Like that's the recipe. But we're not- You're teaching yourself life. Yes. Using sports as the metaphor to teach you about life. Do your best, learn always. Yes. And just have fun. Enjoy the process. Because if that's the only thing that you're worried about is doing your best and learning, why wouldn't you have fun? Because these sports are designed to be awesome. They weren't designed for all this crazy pressure and performance. They were designed because people were bored and they were like, this would be awesome. Let's put up a peach basket and try to make it in there. And then we'll have to go get it out of the basket, you know, eventually, but it'll still be fucking fun in the meantime. Absolutely. And how many games have we invented like that? Find a little, you know, we used to throw, my brother was a football player, we used to throw his little cleats in this wooden chalice that somehow made its way to my family. Maybe it was laid from his wood class. And we'd spend like 30 minutes throwing cleats across the room into these little chalice. And that was our fucking cleats in the hole. Cleats in the hole was like our family game. Cleats in the hole. But imagine if we made cleats in the hole a performance thing where like, our dad was like yelling at us like, how dare you miss that cleat in the hole? You know, like it would just ruin the whole thing when all sports were like that. They're fun. You should have fun. Just do your best to learn. Should be the point. Yep. Wow. My mom was nasty at cleats in the hole by the way. She was just nasty at cleats. She could just rip them. Wow. Just rip them from deep. I love it. She can also catch a cork. I don't know, I've posted this a couple of times. Yes, I've seen that. She can catch a cork. I saw that. I can't get anybody to reproduce that. Myself, like the, it works every time. She's like an albaco cork. She's like an albaco cork. Yeah, that high end coordination. I saw you put that on G. That was amazing. She just grabbed a full extension left hand cork grab. I think comes out like a bullet. It does. She's a gangster. That's pretty dope, man. Man, it's great to have you brother. Yes, thank you so much. Raise your game. Came out yesterday. Oh, shit. Yes. Well, it won't be yesterday when the podcast comes out. It came out three and a half weeks ago. Let's hold that up. Yeah, who knows. Yeah, that's awesome, man. I appreciate it. And follow you on all the social. What's your social handle? At Allen Stein Jr. Beautiful. Easy to find. Well, it's a pleasure to have you. It's a pleasure to have you out in Santa Monica too. And I look forward to continuing the relationship, man. Let's try to get in the hardwood here. Appreciate it. That'd be great. Yeah, thanks. See you, everybody. Peace.