 I think we are just now about to start. So ladies and gentlemen, my name is Jarosław Ponder and as a head of the ITU Office for Europe, it's my great pleasure to open today the first ever ITU Digital Youth Gem, organized by the Generation Connect Youth Group from Europe, the group of young, motivated leaders advocating for the digital for development. Before I give my opening remarks and warmly welcome you all, I would like to give the floor to the technical moderator to briefly explain how you can engage yourself today. I'm handing over to Luisa. Thank you, Jarosław. My name is Luisa, I will be the technical moderator for this event. So before to start, I would like to give you some instructions on the Zoom platform and the meeting. This meeting is entirely remote, so the audience is kindly asked to keep the microphone switch off. The moderator of the session will address the speaker and will give you the floor when your turn comes. You may use the chat for any questions or comments. Please include your name and affiliation for making it easier for the organizers. Moderators will be monitoring and any comment might be read out if time allows. When the floor is open to the audience, please raise your hand to request the floor. We kindly ask you to display your full name and affiliation if possible. Incomplete or suspicious information may cause you to be removed from the meeting room. The meeting is being recorded and recording will be used for report writing and communication purposes. I remain available in the chat if you need any assistance. Thank you very much and have a pleasant event. Hey, thank you very much, Luisa, and thank you very much to you for this explanation and warm welcome to you, all who have taken the time to join us today for this important event. This event is a culmination of many months of work that the young people of the Generation Connect Europe have been working towards. This is entirely crowdsourced events generated by the young leaders. And their journey started in December 2020 with the first concrete outcome already in the 2021 January with the youth declaration, which we have presented to the member states in order to present the challenges of the young people and to be further forwarded to the World Telecommunication Development Conference, the major conference of the ITO being the UN Agency for Digital and More Importantly that also will be leading Tower Generation Connect Summit to be held back to back with the WTDC in June 2022. So those who still are not engaged, please engage now. There is still time. I'm confident that this group will not stop there as their work will continue beyond events in supporting youth engagement in the ITO and the topic of digital. When I first started working with this group of engaged and active young people, I immediately understood that the future of digital is in safe hands. And they are not only interested in working with the ITO and to represent the young people of their countries, but also interested in to gain a deeper understanding of the various hot topics today and to engage themselves in these areas and provide their contribution. Throughout 2021, the Generation Connect Europe Youth Group engaged itself in various brainstorming sessions and they represented the group in many speaking events and they engaged with other youth groups. A clear example of their engagement is this conference itself where the outcomes of today will be presented at the youth event of the Internet Governance Forums taking place on 5th December 2021 in Katowice in Poland. And they are fast moving and an incredibly incredible group. And to open our event, I'm pleased also to invite the young leaders representing and making the change in the digital area. And the first whom I would like to invite is the Ambassador Nelle Loest to deliver her message. And Nelle Loest is the ambassador at large for digital affairs at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Estonia, she is responsible for the development and coordination of digital diplomacy and for the global partnerships in the digital domain. Your Excellency, the floor is yours. Hello everybody and good morning from Snowy Planet. Unfortunately, I can not show you the picture because due to technical issues I was not able to log in in the system and hence also the delay. So I'm very sorry from my side and how the thing goes that the shoe maker is always without the shoes and it's also applied for the digital area. But I'm really grateful for ICU for organising this very important event, especially as the technologies do concern everybody's life. But when I was preparing a little bit for today's intervention, I remembered how I had my first encounter with the computer. I was then 10 years old and we had a programme that in Estonia then was called Yuko. And all I remember was that I didn't really enjoy it. I was trying to avoid that class but as it was too funny drawing, so I did not need the programming class but continued it. And the second time I had this, I would say, let's say, explosion of technological innovation was in 1993 when the browser was open and I'm not sure whether any of you were born at this time yet. But basically this was a huge changer in our universe and we could finally see what the internet had to offer us. And I remember very clearly when I was then entering actually the first year in university and I was thinking like, oh, maybe I could do without it. But of course the time has shown that technologies, these are technologies particularly are here to stay and actually they touch every aspect of our life. We get electricity, we get water, we shop, we find our dates at the one. It also means that the topic is hugely important in our everyday lives and my role also shows it's becoming a hugely important global affair. The question is also the other one that was at the beginning, why did you want to be more active in this affair? And I was also thinking like, how you actually can do that or how actually young people can influence the policymaking and the area that concerns them. And I do have to say that I couldn't find really good practices except some activism by local municipalities or cities to influence local policymaking and to influence policymaking in school level through different committees and perhaps school councils. So I would say that even though we know that these important parts and probably understand technologies than we do here with the other government and many others who we are every day chasing this policy, we have actually quite a big room for development and I am actually asking you, everybody also, if you have any idea to contact myself or the organizers of the event because we are currently here in Estonia developing our digital foreign policy and as you are also trying to ask me to also think how I could involve you. I'm actually glad that this came up because I never thought about it before. So I would like to actually end with this call to think of ways how you think or would like to be involved in the policymaking around digital technology and the global state. And let's see whether we can find a common ways to collaborate. So I wish you a very good event and I'm looking forward at this in the future to perhaps meet with you in person. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much, Ambassador. It's really great that you were able to join us this morning. Thank you very much for this inspiration and also for designing the way forward for the proactive engagement of the youth and your advocacy for the engagement of the youth, meaningful engagement in the youth in the policymaking. And I think there is a lot of space where the young people can contribute for designing the future. So thank you very much. But now let me turn to our second special guest, the member of the Parliament of Romania, Acting Chairman of the IT Communications Commission within the Chamber of Deputies, Mr. Sabin Sarmas, but who is also designated Chair of the ITU Plenary Potentiary Conference to be held in Romania in 2022. And who is also very strong advocate for the meaningful youth engagement. So I'm handing over to you. Excellent. Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. And thank you for having me here at the first digital youth jam. As I was presented, I'm Sabin Sarmas and I will join the discussion today as designated Chairman of the ITU Plenary Potentiary Conference 2022, which will be organized in Bucharest next year. I know that lately we all have been hearing a lot how we live unprecedented times and how the world, as we know, is changing. However, the truth is that the future has always been challenging even before the pandemic. Just for example, by looking at the SDGs, we can agree that we have a complicated agenda, objectives such as zero hunger, quality education, gender equality, responsible consumption production, and sustainable cities and communities being very, very difficult to tackle. Nevertheless, the current technology advancement offer us the opportunities needed to match the complexity of the challenges we face today. But in order to achieve our targets for 2030 Sustainable Development Agenda, firstly, we need to make sure that we connect the unconnected. This is an ambition which goes far beyond the access to connectivity. Connect the unconnected means providing the necessary education and the basic skills for everyone to use digital public services. It means re-skilling and upskilling people with the proper digital competencies to keep up with the changes on the labor market. It also means creating a safe and cyber-secure online environment and making sure that certain vulnerabilities are not exploited anymore online. I believe that at this stage of the digital transformation process of our society, the youth are the most entitled to point out the challenges and the opportunities as well. I also believe that your efforts to deliver social change through innovative digital solution will be the most valuable for the economy and for the environment and society in general. I know that you are the most digitalized generation and you'll continue to grow more and more connected and more and more digitalized. This is why maybe today is more important than ever to discover and to believe in the potential of technological progress we face all around the world. As a young politician, because I'm a politician as well, I noticed that Romania, the benefits of digitalization weren't always obvious for everyone. Therefore, it was a topic quite low on the public agenda sometimes. In this context, as a member of the government, I set up the authority for digitalization of Romania and immediately I asked for the help of young volunteers like you to help us build a strong institution, actually the centerpiece of the digital transformation at a national level. Even though it's still a young institution, the authority is managing many ambitious projects, aiming at modernizing the public administration and providing high quality digital public services for our citizens. I know that, or besides this, I know that very well as a young adult it's not always easy to make your voice heard. However, once again, technology comes to rescue. I recommend you to use all the platforms you have online or offline, including the ITU Generation Connect Europe youth group to make yourself seem and heard. That being said, I just want to add something which I think is very important that during the PP22 as a chairman, I will promote and support all the initiatives related to the five thematic priorities we included in the draft declaration of the Europe youth group since I believe that they raise the issues relevant for all the regions all around the world. Finally, just let me congratulate you on the work you've done so far. I wish you to have a productive and fruitful discussion and I'm looking forward to hearing the results next week at the Internet Governance Forum. So thank you very much and have a really productive conference. Thank you very much. Excellent for this insightful address and really it's a lot of inspiration for the young people taking a look at the different ITU platforms, how to contribute meaningfully. And I'm confident that the Plenty Potential Conference is one of the platforms where the, in particular Europe group will be actively observing and whatever opportunities would come might be of the help. So today we'll be looking at some very exciting sessions such as youth in policymaking conversations with young leaders and their journey. So what is the role of the youth groups in Europe? And we'll close with the work of the Generation Connect Europe and the Declaration. They have created together this year. So excellency and excellencies, we would like to thank you very much for taking time to be with us on this important milestone of the work of this group. Now without further delay, I would like to pass the floor to my colleague, Victoria Savitska for the next steps and please stay with us still because we would like to also and take a group photography where we would be pleased to be also with you as excellency. So I'm handing over to you, Victoria. Thank you, Yaroslav. Good morning, everyone. So before we proceed, I would like our moderator, Luisa, to make us a nice group picture and ask you all to switch on your cameras just for a little moment. Luisa, please let us know when you're ready. Yes, so I'll come to three. When I take the pictures, I see more people. Right, I have a... Okay, let's wait just five, 10 seconds. Okay. So I will come to three. Everyone smiles, one, two, three. Okay, I will put one more. Oh, once again, one, two, three. Beautiful. All right, thank you everyone. We'll see you later again. Thank you, Luisa. And again, welcome everyone to this first session of the ITU Digital Youth Jam and Invaded by the Generation Connect Europe Youth Group. I remember when the Generation Connect Europe members were discussing how they would like to start this event. And of course, the policymaking was a very important item of our discussion. This is why it is my great pleasure to moderate this session today focusing on how we use voices I included in the policymaking process. Thank you for those who joined us in Zoom today. And for those who couldn't be with us in Zoom, we have a live stream in YouTube. And I can see that we have also people joining there. For those of you who are here with us in Zoom, please feel free to start writing your questions in a chat box and I will monitor them throughout our discussion. And to begin with, I would like to present to our distinguished panelists. And I'm honored today to be joined by Excellency Valeria Ernan, Deputy Minister for Euro Integration and the Minister of Digital Transformation Ukraine. She actually will join us in 10 minutes. And Burjana Visikurna, Advisor and Officer of the Prime Minister of Serbia for Culture, Creative Industry, Science and Tourism. Yurgis Dilkes, Chief Specialist of the Resources and Services Division at the Communications Regulatory Authority of the Republic of Lithuania. And Alvesa Dimjakha, Cyber Security Associate at the KPMG Norway and the PhD candidate at the University College of London. Thank you everyone for taking your time and joining us today in this important panel. And I would like to start this panel by giving you the opportunity to share with us a little bit more about your journeys and your work. And Burjana, we will start with you. The floor is yours, please. Thank you so much, Victoria. And thank you for... Can you hear me? Is everything okay? Yes. Yeah, okay. Thank you so much for inviting me to participate in this panel. It is my honor to present the Office of the Prime Minister and the Government of Serbia. So do you want me to share my own path? How I entered policymaking? Okay, so I studied abroad. I completed my BA in international relations in Vienna and I returned to Serbia as sort of a midway thinking what else, you know, what next should I do? So in the meantime, I enrolled master's degree in ethics and I started slowly working my way through the local market. So I joined one HR agency and I started working as an HR assistant. So the person that was leading this agency was actually a very close friend to Dan, the Minister of Serbia, Anna Brinović, who is now the Prime Minister. So she called me up and she said, you know what? Midway. This woman is amazing. She's putting a team of young people, people who studied abroad. Do you want to just have a chat with her and see whether you want to be part of the team? So I was like, yeah, why not? And that's how I joined the ministry for public administration and local self-government. Having no idea the three months after that, I will be joining the Prime Minister's office, right? So that was quite a journey. And of course, you know, in the first three months, we went through the whole process with her writing her exposé and defending with the parliament. And ever since I've been with her and with the team working on the areas that you set. So science, creative industries, some cultural projects and a little bit of some projects in tourism that basically border creative industries, innovation and science as well. Thank you, Prajana. That's definitely very interesting journey you had. And Jurgis, what about you? The floor is yours. Hi, everyone. I'm Jurgis from Lithuania and talking about my journey. It's quite funny, I would say. I studied public policy, that's my bachelor and my master is project management. And I always wanted to work in public field. I mean, like a public sermon. And but they started as a bartender in my bachelor year and I didn't have any experience administrative work. And when I graduated from the, from my BA studies, I saw that there's a competition to RT for consumer protection position. And I applied for it and there was competition and I was the only candidate. So I won that competition, I started working there and I step by step reached the position that I am now and basically I'm giving advices on law projects and et cetera regarding the field that I am working in its resources and services of electronic communications. I think that's all. Thank you, Jurgis. That's also a very interesting journey you had. And finally, Albesa, over to you. Hi, everyone. My name is Albesa Demiaha. I'm from North Macedonia. And the journey that brought me here was predominantly academic. I decided to specialize in information security when I went abroad to do my masters in London. I'm grateful. I got a scholarship from my country to do that and I was supported for that. And while I was studying in London, I discovered the field of cybersecurity and I realized that it's not just technical and there are many different fields that you can specialize within. And policymaking is definitely one of them. So I decided to focus on the human-centered side of security, sort of trying to make it more understandable for people, for younger generations, but even for older ones and working predominantly with awareness and training and education. So alongside my masters, I went into the world of teaching. I was a teaching assistant for several years. And then I was also a lecturer of a course called Information Security Management at my university. So throughout that journey, I decided to specialize even further and I started my PhD, which focuses on cybersecurity culture, understanding all the different important factors in organizations which at the core has policy in it. So trying to essentially change cybersecurity policy so that it is easier for people to engage and easier for people to engage in it. Making it easier for people to be secure at the end of the day. So currently I'm self-finishing my PhD, but I've also shifted my career into industry recently and I'm a consultant at KPMG, where we're working in very exciting projects with both the public sector and the private sector in trying to help our clients with complying with different policies, but also raising their awareness in cybersecurity. Thank you. And thank you all for sharing your insightful journeys and we all have different paths, but I'm glad to say that we are all moving toward the same goal, which is great. So starting the first round of discussion, of our discussion, I would like to ask you Bozhana, can you please share with us some of the strategies that the Prime Minister's office in Serbia is implementing to include a use in policymaking? So maybe could you share with us, as a young person in Serbia, how can I be involved in sharing my ideas regarding new policies, especially those related to digital? Thank you, Victoria. Well, the Prime Minister herself is very striving towards open dialogue, especially towards youth in Serbia and Serbian youth living abroad. So to illustrate this, for example, when we joined office four years ago, she was looking for people, Serbian people studying abroad or working abroad who would like to join her office, especially young people. So she posted this on Twitter, right? And then a couple of people responded and then one guy who at the time worked at the World Bank, he was sort of high ranked there and graduated from Johns Hopkins. So she liked him, she invited him for an interview and a couple of months later he became her foreign policy advisor. He served as a foreign policy advisor for the next three years. So this is the kind of practice that she is trying to introduce into this sort of traditional political arena that's usually kept for older, sort of more experienced people. She believes that young people bring this passion and that it's really important to include fresh views in policymaking, especially around digital because of course, young people are more familiar with that as we said in the opening speeches. So in Serbia, you do have these, let's say, traditional ways of influencing policymaking if you are outside of politics. You have a lot of youth NGOs and then you have one sort of like an NGO that brings all these youth NGOs together and then represents their voices to the government. This is like a representative group of NGO youth organizations and you also have an office for youth within the Ministry of Youth and Sports that's actually working directly with young people in their voices and implementing them in the policymaking. So one thing I would like to share with you is that in 2019, we had Novi Sad, which is the second largest city in Serbia. It was European capital of youth. So within this year, we had a lot of projects that involved programs for youth, capacity building programs that are directed education, but also a lot of programs that discussed how young people can get more involved in the policymaking. So there are a couple of results that came out of this process. One result is that we are now working directly with these people and changing the law on youth. This is currently in the process and the long-term goal is basically to have more youth involved in the policymaking with having clear and more specific channels of their influence. The second thing is that the Prime Minister started having these regular open dialogues with youth representatives. We've had four of these so far since 2019 and one is upcoming in niche next month. So these are basically forums where these organizations select a couple of individuals and they directly one-on-one with the Prime Minister discuss things that are relevant for youth. So digital education, digital skills, health, employment, well-being, everything that you also signaled that you sorted in your manifesto of the Generation Connect. To end, I would like to also say two other things that we initiated in the last four years. One is an organization that's called Returning Point and this organization is basically targeting highly skilled diaspora which are mostly younger generations, people who went to study abroad or after studying abroad left state in diaspora to work there. And the idea is basically to establish connections with them to motivate them to come back to Serbia and contribute to our society but not necessarily to come back if they don't have opportunities to work in Serbia. So it's important to bridge this gap and to sort of find a way to cooperate with them to different mentorships program and help create a platform for them to influence policymaking in Serbia in order to create better environment for them to eventually come back. The second thing, so that's directed towards diaspora so to say highly skilled mostly young. And then the second is the something that we're working on right now and that's the talent fund reform. Talent fund is basically a national fund that's giving scholarships both to domestic students and to students wanting to study abroad why we are doing this reform because we want to focus more on alumni network management, career guidance, mentorship programs and employability of these people that are using the national scholarships. So we want to create this network and to open especially public service to them for different internships and employment but also to try to make a link with the private sector and get more youth involved in the private sector because employment is currently one of the major things. Unemployment rates among youths are definitely one of the major issues in Serbia. Thank you, thank you very much Bojana. I am happy to hear about these innovative approaches and the Twitter campaign. It's quite impressive. And next question you'll give it's a similar question for you in Lithuania and how does the government engage youth in policymaking and as a young Lithuanian how can I get engaged in making policy especially when it comes to digital, please. So basically the government engaged youth in policymaking through various programs and projects basically you just need to be active as a citizen find a community NGO or any program or project related to youth involvement in policymaking and you are in the process. And believe me there are many organizations around Lithuania to be a part of. The only problem in my opinion would be that in Lithuania there is a lack of attention from youth to digital policymaking. I mean we do not have certain youth organizations or communities related to digital policymaking questions and a country as innovative as we are I think you should be more interested in the digital policymaking process and I think the other way you can engage in the policymaking process as a young citizen you can be a public servant like me just put every effort to be your field professional and you can contribute to the policymaking process as an expert. Also there is a problem that young people are not interested to work in the public sector for some reasons and on the other hand the public sector institutions are kind of afraid to accept young specialists because of their lack of experience and during the working year I am engaged in cooperating with many institutions and I have heard such statements like we do not seek to accept students for intership as teaching requires a lot of resources which does not pay off but in my opinion if you accept young students or young persons to work for you and invest in them knowledge and time pay off a lot so basically you can as I said you can engage through various programs projects and communities and NGOs and the same way I did become a public servant. Thank you, Jurgis. I hope we will see more and more young people in the government of Lithuania and the next question I have to Her Excellency Miss Valerio Nan you are very active on social media and always sharing the work you do in Ukraine there we do not usually see a lot of leaders share so much insights from their daily life from socials like you do and we really appreciate this and appreciate the opportunity to get to know you better as there in an unfiltered way as well as your work could you please share with us more what is your social media strategy especially in engaging use when it comes to policy? First of all, hi everyone it's a big pleasure to be here with you today even online I like to run my social networks and tell my subscribers about what I do every day and I want to show that the work as deputy minister is not about sitting in an old dusted office signing incomprehensible papers as it sometimes might be imagined the modern public service as I and my colleagues from the ministry seat is working with people with a large number of projects and constant movement and it is interesting and compelling and very joyful sometimes in a fast pace of life some events recede and then suddenly the social networks remind you of it showing your own publication from a year ago I like these moments and the fact that social networks work as some sort of a diary and to tell the truth every day I get lots of feedback on social networks and it helps to look at myself and my work from different angle I often share comments I receive about our projects with my team and this leads to whole new brainstorms sometimes new ideas and solutions for improvement and I would take this opportunity to say that I am very grateful to my audience for unexpected insights that come from social networks in general I am glad if young people having come to my page and seeing my lifestyle decide to choose a career in the civil service and focus their attention and energy on the development of the governmental projects of their own country Thank you Your Excellency and a special thank you for changing the perception on what it means to work in the ministry and now my next question is for you your work on cyber security is very interesting especially as more and more governments are looking to ensure that all the digital services are safe from your point of view and giving you experience both in North Macedonia and Norway what do you think can be the biggest cyber risks for governments involving the young constituents in a policy making online? I think we are living in very exciting times when it comes to cyber security perhaps mostly for us working in the field as governments and other organizations are facing serious cyber threats on a daily basis if we go back 10 years ago we did not know what cyber security was whereas today we have governments and corporations being hacked regularly so the impact of such intrusions is obviously colossal and organizations often have to pay millions solely to recover from these incidents in addition to the reputational damage that they have to face after these attacks so in such situations we must also consider the privacy and its implications on the rights of our citizens so for example when the Norwegian government was hacked a while ago people considered it an attack on democracy and in this complex threat landscape it's imperative to follow a proactive rather than a reactive approach to security meaning that we need to take steps before something bad happens rather than trying to fix them once it has already happened so policy making in cyber security requires a holistic approach it is no longer sufficient to only invest in technology we need to invest in people as well and given how new cyber security is as a field we are actually lucky that the majority of the experts in the field are relatively young so as a result their involvement in policy making is crucial and similarly to the COVID-19 pandemic cyber security is a global challenge and we need cross-border initiatives to tackle this challenge so these initiatives have been a little bit difficult to facilitate during the pandemic as we know and many countries have had to be flexible and creative in the way that they've been working so for example some governments have had to meet on Zoom and take very important decisions on Zoom by raising their hands on the webcam and while online decision making and policy making is a promising platform especially for younger generations because we are more used to it it is still in its early stages so with that obviously there come some risks as most online collaboration tools they are not really developed with security in mind so they are associated with certain cyber risks such as the lack of regulation in digital services as opposed to physical meetings which we have been doing for such a long time and we know how to regulate them with the accessibility of intruders joining confidential meetings and this is a little bit difficult to control as you know with Zoom as well and finally a really important one is the potential data breach that can happen with these online decision makings so with that said young people have a two-fold role in tackling this challenge the first one is to actually try and work towards securing digital services and digital platforms as well as being at the forefront of such digital policy making Thank you Albesa I am looking in the chat box to see if you have any questions from audience and we actually do have one it goes to Burjana so is the Serbian government implementing projects to boost the digitalization and access to information and communication technologies of the youngest segments of the population Please Burjana Thank you so much for the question well digitalization and education are two priorities of the prime minister so of course there are a lot of projects that we are working on four years ago we established this office for IT and e-government and the sole role of the office is basically to serve as an implementing body of all digitalization across public service so basically we started introducing e-services not only for citizens but also for the industry in terms of education we've introduced a couple of projects and initiatives that basically directly target youth so we introduced coding as a mandatory subject in the elementary school so fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth grade so these kids now as a mandatory subject learn Python, Scratch all these programming languages and IT is already a mandatory subject in in high schools so that was really innovative I think we are the kind of a leader in that area in Europe and then at the high school level but also at the elementary level we went fully digital so we have digital textbooks elementary schools are already fully digital and then high schools are becoming fully digital next year so that's again directed at increasing digital literacy and skills of youth as an end result to have them more involved in the policy making of course and to use these digital skills for their own well-being and then at the university level we've introduced two master programs that were specially crafted with the industry one was in IT and the other one was in gaming and visual effects the idea was to have a completely new curriculum that will have 50% of it teaching and 50% mandatory work in the industry so at the beginning of the program the university has already had agreed positions for these students in designated companies for them to work at so that's how we try to bridge this gap between university education and working in the industry which is usually recognized as the major problem that what you learn in the university you're not actually ready to enter the labor market so these are let's say some of the things we were working on I hope I answered your question yes thank you it's very interesting we have one more questions here I think by mistake it came directly to me but I will read it so are there any steps as the government is taking for encouraging, supporting and leading young entrepreneurs maybe your excellency would you like to take this question and tell us what Ukraine is doing to lead young entrepreneurs sure great question by the way well we have a national project on the development of SMEs called DEA business so this project has two components the first one is an online one-stop shop for future and existing entrepreneurs with lots of different free services and products for example now every Ukrainian entrepreneur could get a free consultation in different directions starting from how to start my business how do I create a financial plan how do I create marketing strategy how to internationalize my business how to choose the country for export and so on plus there is a free online school for entrepreneurs plus the catalog of business ideas the map of infrastructure marketplace of financial products with smart filters impact investment platform where entrepreneurs could get investment and vice versa the big section on analytics of Ukrainian of the state of Ukrainian entrepreneurship and lots and lots of other sections this is life organism so the web portal updates regularly once in three months and it is really very useful for those who want to start their business or who want to grow their businesses we have more than 1.5 million users of the portal for the last year and the second component of this project is the network of offline hubs DEA business actually those hubs are centers of support for entrepreneurs so everyone who would like to know more about the topic of entrepreneurship can come and get a consultation for free offline if he is not comfortable in consultations online for in online format also visit some educational initiatives learning term and short term programs also there is a possibility to test your product before selling it into retail networks so for example if let's imagine you're manufacturing honey and you want to sell your product but still you have some concerns regarding this product maybe the quality branding or pricing or whatever so you can come to any of these centers and put your product on the shelf and give the list of the questions to the center so they will be transmitted into a special program and near this location near this pop-up zone there is an iPad so all of the guests of this center they can come and see all the products and they can answer all of the questions and an entrepreneur can get can see the answers on a real-time basis so actually those answers help a lot to improve the product and there are lots and lots of different opportunities and of course we are also paying a lot of attention to the educational topics so we have a special product which is entrepreneurship for scholars and which is implemented into high school and entrepreneurial university which is also a special discipline available in already 80 universities in Ukraine Thank you very much for sharing with us this I would say very progressive and innovative approach which is taken in support in young entrepreneurs we have a few more questions and I think this one goes to your guess what is the main actions the Lithuanian government is taking in the field of electronic communications regulation and how does these actions involve and affect use? Thank you for your question so basically the main action now is we adapted electronic communication law on December 1st and basically we need to how to say adapt all the bylaws and this is our job and we are preparing these bylaws by now and how this action involves and affect you I don't know how to answer this question but I would try to do it in my opinion basically in my opinion we are seeking that everyone in Lithuania would have 100 megabits per second internet speed so basically this will result in better education for young people especially in nowadays and now we have coverage of 30 megabits per second 89% of Lithuanian population so basically from our perspective the minimum requirements for the speed, for the education and etc would be 10 megabits per second but we have it bigger so we are very happy about it and also maybe off topic if you would have better internet connection the news and the information about our digital policy will reach youth more fast and they would be more interesting to engage and share their opinions or concerns about it so that's all I can say thank you thank you that's definitely a positive effect I would say and we have one more question it goes to Albeza regarding your experience in cyber security what are the main actions that can be taken to achieve a behavioural change in information security policy and how can you be part of that change please Albeza thank you for the great question so a message that I've been trying to get across for years is that the first step in cyber security is to understand that people are not the enemy and they should not be treated rather they should be helped in order to have this behaviour change so the first step is to understand that awareness is only the first phase of behaviour change education and training and all of that is very important of course but it's only the first step in the behaviour change program so behaviour change takes time it takes buy-in from managers, from seniors so everybody needs to be on board not just people but it also takes a lot of creativity engagement and being proactive with security so it's not just a tick box it needs to be a long term program it needs to be a year round engagement and in terms of how youth can be a part of it I think this is a two fold strategy first of all it's a country's responsibility to include youth in the national strategy and at least North Macedonia and Norway have done that so they've included the sort of development of curricula and the development of awareness and training programs for schools and children at a very young age up to university level so I think that's a really good first step and then the second step is from the youth themselves and as I said we're lucky that a lot of young people are in security and it's a young field in general so what we can do to involve ourselves is try to become subject matter experts and that is our way into policy change so the more specialized we become in cyber security and believe me there's a shortage of that the more we will be asked to get involved regardless of our age thank you thank you Alvesa, that's a very good message I would say and I have one more question regarding how we link government and young leaders how we can connect them and how the link between them can work to produce more impact I assume maybe you're excellent, would you like to take this question? Yes sure thank you for the question and by the way it's so an interesting discussion so I would say that never think that policymaking is something very far from you or unattainable in the career sense, anything is possible if you make enough effort and understand your goal today digital I would say the internet generally provides many opportunities to follow the projects of public organizations current political and social figures and it is important to be aware of what is happening around you and not to hesitate to write your hand at your dream business look for opportunities and act that's what I say thank you very much I have actually a few more questions a few more questions around prepared for you but I see that you're running out of time so maybe I would if it go to the last round and first of all I would like to thank everyone for sharing these insights I still encourage the audience to ask me questions because we still have a few minutes and meanwhile a final question to all our speakers what is the message that you would give to young people today in engaging more in the policymaking especially when using digital and what could be some of the risks or things to look out for and Bojana, the floor is yours thank you so I think that two areas that I would advise young people to focus on are environment and ethics why these two because I think the decisions that we make today will have long-term impact on these two areas and they will basically shape the future for these young young people and some of these decisions could be irreversible when I say ethics I mean especially digital and especially AI this is something that cybersecurity of course but even looking beyond that like fairness you know correcting for bias and AI and so forth this is something that's not being addressed enough I think globally and I think young people having you know more experience with these advanced technologies can actually lead the change in this area and can set a different example to create their own future so I think these are two things two basically areas that are really important for the young people to focus on in terms of advice for my own experience I think there are two main challenges when you enter I will speak from my own perspective so when you enter politics so when you are at the center of it one is that as a young person freshly out of university you are usually driven by an ideology whatever that be so you always try to you know get to this ideal kind of state that you did you did you have had a chance to study at the university and it's like a perfect world so once you enter politics you have to understand that ideology serves an aspiration it's a state that you aspire to get to but in making decisions you have to be very pragmatic so I would say that you keep you know ideology as an aspirational path but then a guiding principle should be pragmatism politics is always about a compromise and it's actually that journey towards that kind of ideal state that you usually never reach unfortunately and then the second thing is I think that young people should set an example for older politicians in using digital tools for open dialogue and when I say dialogue I really mean dialogue I think that digital tools have helped us with more you know have introduced this more direct and instant communication we have so many channels of communication but it seems like that process has become more more democratic and more open but on the other hand digital tools have also created this gap between the messenger and the message and that has had some negative effects so you have these twitter wars you have people just saying out loud their thoughts without really thinking through what that means and what kind of impact that can have on the public dialogue so I think young people should really really focus on getting these digital communication tools in order and setting an example of really open democratic dialogue at every level Thank you so much Bajana for your insightful very inspiring message and Jürgis please the floor is yours Thank you so my message would be first of all don't be afraid but Bajana mentioned the dialogue I also wanted to mention the dialogue between the policy makers and youth and all the citizens I think the institutions should be prepared to work with youth organizations and communities consider these suggestions and answer any questions or concerns they may have such dialogue gives young people the opportunity to be directly involved in the policy maker and young people would be do not be afraid to reach out the institutions when making proposals or raising an issue it is important which is important to them and that one sentence what if not us and when if not today so basically we had a situation in Lithuania where the parliament members during the Covid came to parliament to work there because they didn't know how to work from home so I think the place is yours just do the move and keep going forward Thank you Jürgis this is very encouraging and Albesa the floor is yours Thank you and I agree with Jürgis we shouldn't be afraid we should pick up and the fact that our young should definitely not stop us if we have the right thinking and the right expertise but from a cyber perspective I think the most important message that I have for young people is to let go of the stereotypes that are associated with cybersecurity so there are several misconceptions about the field one that it is a purely technical field and I myself am an example of the opposite the second one is that it's not an appropriate program trying to demonstrate the opposite and three that people working in cybersecurity are stuck behind the computer and not out in the real world so I want to emphasize that there's a lot of diversity in cybersecurity and there are numerous disciplines waiting to be developed and waiting for these young people to get involved so cybersecurity is young but it is past growing and it will soon become the cornerstone in all policy making sustainability or as Bayonne was mentioning the ethics of algorithms and all of that so I will leave you with this question who better to lead the future of cyber policy making than the young people who grew up alongside the field itself Thank you Rachel Vesta for destroying the stereotypes in your message and with your work the most important Your Excellency please send me your final message I think there are some connectivity issues that Ms Anand has and unfortunately the lost role but still I would like to thank all our distinguished guests for this amazing conversation for your openness in sharing your experience your journey and your insights and of course special thanks for this encouraging and inspiring messages for our young audience and thanks to all our participants for being with us today and I invite you to stay for our second session and our second session is a fire set chat with a young interpreter and I would like to invite the moderator Luke Kavanaugh to present our speaker and to give you more details on the session please look at the floor is yours I see that Luke is with us let us just give a second so Luke are you here I see that his microphone is muted and Karen we can't hear you can you hear me now okay okay thank you very much perfect thank you so much okay fantastic what I was just saying while I was in my muted phase that it was really inspiring to catch the last five minutes of that conversation and I think a lot of the themes that conversation just ended on things that I'd like to pick up over the next four to five minutes that we've got to spend with Taha who is an amazing guest and was so privileged to have him join us today and what I'm going to do is briefly introduce him to get into a conversation with him for about half an hour and then try and leave 50 minutes for questions from the audience as well I'm sure there'll be a lot and the focus of this session is shifting gear away from cybersecurity slightly and more into the space of youth entrepreneurship and particularly digital entrepreneurship and Taha is the founder and CEO of Goodwall and Goodwall is a next-generation community for students and young professionals to connect to opportunities that fast-track their future so Goodwall works across 150 different countries and is a space that offers young people a new way to discover earning and learning opportunities by forming connections with each other so in many ways it encapsulates the mission of the digital youth jam today and the ITU Generation Connect project more broadly Taha has always also been named on the Forbes 30 under 30 list he's a world economic forum global shaper and he's been a speaker on education and innovation at TEDx in the United Nations, Google business thoughts, MIT, Oxford and many other places as well so obviously someone who has a lot of great thoughts to share with us today and Taha if you're on the line which I think you are perfect thank you so much for joining us thank you so much Luke and thank you so much for the kind words not sure if they're all deserved but really grateful to be here with you today fantastic so what I'd like to do is pick up on the conversation that you guys just left off in the first panel and I was having a lot of things such as not being afraid to reach for business ideas and season the moment and Taha I wanted to start by coming back to a conversation that you had on a podcast with Guy Rath about a year ago and that was just how I built this podcast where you're talking about resilience and the pandemic and one of the things that you said then was that it was never easier to start a new business as a young person and now was the sort of time in the pandemic to seize the moment and go ahead and be an entrepreneur. Do you think that one year on your view has changed on this at all or do you think it's still fertile grounds for young people to be entrepreneurs and if so that's the case. Yeah thanks so much Luke I should avoid making super general statements like that in the future. I think maybe if we really talk at a holistic level that is likely to be true of course you know we're making huge generalizations when speaking about this I think the reason why I said that was largely because the costs of entry to starting a business today are significantly lower in some cases than have ever been before. Yes there's more competition but the world is arguably flatter. I was talking about and looking at some of the youth that we work with you can start a dropshipping business out of Egypt you can do that out of Kenya because of access to digital platforms because of access to clients around the world that maybe was not the case before. That's on the one hand building an organization or a company like Goodwall for example is a lot cheaper now than it was maybe 10 years ago so building a digital company that can be because the way servers work that can be because it takes a few minutes to buy a domain website this has just become so much more mature than what was 10-15 years ago. In terms of the economy so the pandemic has definitely destroyed a lot but it's also opened up a lot of opportunities and similar to post 2008 there was a huge surge in startup activity. People wanted to reinvent the financial industry and I think we have an opportunity to rethink how we work rethink how we educate ourselves because digital transformation has just accelerated by years trends that we had seen previously so I think there's a lot of opportunity on that front. Having said that there's still the challenges that you face in terms of confidence there's still the challenges that you face in terms of safety net there's still the challenges that they face in terms of exposure having said that just on the exposure piece I think that's also something that's quite interesting for this generation compared to the last one entrepreneurship is almost mainstream now for a lot of people it's not for everyone I don't I mean and there are a lot of people who are not there but the idea of becoming an entrepreneur is something that we talk about a lot more than we did 10-15 years ago and I think that's a benefit right so I was kind of inspired to take on this journey not inspired but rather shown or exposed to it by watching Shark Tank and Dragons Den when I was in school and you know just listening a little bit criticizing other people's businesses you know while watching TV that was my way of trying to understand okay this is how you do this, this is how you pitch and the rest and I think that is just so much more normal now because there's just so much more exposure to that than it was before. Having said that there's still lots of challenges so I don't want to make it sound like it's easy by any means and I do want to say, sorry for just keep going on, I do want to say when I talk about entrepreneurship I don't mean building a business with 100 employees and raising tens of millions of dollars I mean there's so much opportunity and I would love to talk about that perhaps just in a bit about the micro entrepreneurship that exists the entrepreneurs that are on the for example in sub-Saharan Africa that are doing side hustles but are actually entrepreneurs you know they might be just reselling something, buying something and that's entrepreneurship as well and I think we need to show a lot of respect and encouragement towards that as well. Yeah absolutely I mean there's so much interesting stuff there but I think one of the things that you pick out really well is this point of exposure and I guess slightly different from me I was always more the apprentice than Dragon's Den but point taken very much so and I think that this idea of being exposed to entrepreneurship is a really interesting one because I think at least from my childhood growing up it was still reinforced to me by watching those shows that people who are entrepreneurs are men and women in suits and blazers and it sounds like the point you're trying to make is that that's not always true and I guess one of the challenges that we might have with young people is converting that exposure to like the world of business and being more familiar with it to realizing that it's something that they can go into themselves I mean how do you think you'd lower that sort of barrier of expectation that we might call it to address entrepreneurship as something that can be a lot more casual than that. I think it's that's a really good point and I think it's about having role models that youth can how do you say associate with. There's some people maybe you Luke that you know you watch the apprentice or Dragon's Den you're like yeah that could be me but for many people that's just not possible you know in fact it's actually it dissuades them more than anything else and if I take the example of a micro entrepreneur you know it's not Elon Musk that's going to and no disrespect Elon Musk but it's not Elon Musk that's going to inspire them to become an entrepreneur if I take a concrete example with what we're watching what we're doing we get local role models and when I say local I'm talking about someone from rural Kenya for example get them to speak about their journey as an entrepreneur and and their entrepreneurial journey and that is something that can inspire the local context right and we need to do this globally and this is something we're working on right now globally another example would be if we take you know the the ecopreneurs or the agripreneurs that we're trying to foster in a lot of the global south there again it's not necessarily someone like myself who's built a digital company that should be speaking and inspiring but it's people from the ground who might be a few years ahead of them or a little bit more than a few years ahead of them but they can really relate to so role modeling is probably the most authentic and scalable way of encouraging people because again it has to be locally contextualized and it has to be authentic so if we think of this generation authenticity goes a long way you know highly well produced productions are not necessarily the thing that's going to inspire someone to make that shift because it's not something they can relate to and and of course this is even more dis you know and then if we add the gender divide this is disproportionately negatively affecting of course women and other underrepresented or vulnerable communities so we really need local local mentors and the way we're doing that is by running global and local competitions alongside various partners from the for-profit non-for-profit and governmental sectors to be able to provide role models but also the ability to engage in very small low low implications low barriers to entry so just to give you a concrete example we run challenges where we ask youth in the beginning to identify a problem so we have role models that will speak about their journeys how to pitch etc then we ask youth to identify a problem they see around them then we ask them to participate in a few sessions and content that's really just 60 second to two minute videos and then they're asked to pitch their idea that they may have and that pitch can lead to additional grant of $1,000 or $500 which allows them to just go for it and if it turns out to be great fantastic and then we connect them to accelerators but if it doesn't their success of having received something which is well publicized amongst the community encourages other people that a normal normal 18, 19, 20 year old can do something and can get recognized for it even if they fail because we have to we have to normalize failure right that's critical yeah I mean that was exactly the point that I think I was going to follow up with it sounds like there's a lot going on in your mind between these sort of low embarrass of entries and the opportunities that failure provides do you think that your own personal attitude to failure has changed over the years do you think that it's something that's changed as your companies grow and you've failed lots and lots of times I mean where is your mind up with the concept of failure yourself and how has that changed over the past 5, 6, 7 years really good that's a really good question I think just as a before talking about my own experience with it I think if we are to allow youth or anybody really to succeed entrepreneurially we have to accept failure so for us when we look at those grants that we're giving out we basically expect them not to succeed the point is it's unlikely that your first business as a youth is going to lead to success it's just unlikely probabilistically that's totally fine started young go for it fail that's okay the next one or don't even start you might have an idea and then you drop out of the idea totally fine you're likely to actually only start a business few years later I mean if I look at myself I only theoretically I think the first registered company I had was I was maybe I can't remember maybe 20 but I must have tried the first you know the first ideas we had when we were 16 but between 16 we launched a website and did some other things but the only first registered company happened at 20 so the same thing applies for the youth that are sharing ideas it can take years and it might not even be in their 20s it might happen when they're 30 or beyond which means that does that count as a failure no that education in terms of that entrepreneurial mindset can be is essential when you think of policy when you think about joining NGOs when you think about joining large companies or whether it be a small medium business before they make the step to basically start their own and and I would just say that I started businesses but I also followed so I followed my my brother into starting good wall and I think we can't this is TEDx that I that I really like which is like how to start a movement I think we can't undermine and under value how important it is to be a follower and and I think sometimes with this whole hero worshipping of perceived leaders we forget about actually the only reason why I'm on this call is because there's you know 60 other amazing people that are doing a great job and as a result I get sometimes invited to certain things so it's not it's not the it's really not the entrepreneur per se it's that mindset which is so critical which I think it's really important for people youth to maybe join a company which has five people join an NGO which has 10 people or maybe change a large organization that has 10,000 or 100,000 employees that's going to be critical for us as a society and I think for youth in particular that that's like more generally if I think of myself I'm trying my best not to be afraid of failure I think I'm I have a I have a like every single day but at the same time I clearly am have shown that I can take calculated risks I think all the decisions I've made have been very much aware I wouldn't say naive because very much aware of the risks that that are at stake but they are calculated and risk adjusted I think it's you know afterwards it's everyone's personal consideration I hope it doesn't change though because it's easy it's easy for us to you know you see failure so much it's easy for us to to become afraid of it but we can't we can't afford that yeah I think if anyone hasn't seen the TED talk that Taha just recommended it's a great excuse to throw out really poor dance moves in whatever situation you find yourself but no seriously seriously worth a watch and I think you make a really good point about sometimes that the first follower and the followers that come after that are just important as the leader I want to come back in a minute to your relationship with your brother and how that's influenced your sort of story as an entrepreneur but I just wanted to push and talk a little bit more about what you're saying about the grants and the sort of support that you've provided or you've seen other people provide for young entrepreneurs to help them fail more easily how do you think that that could be scaled up to an institutional level and how do you think organizations like the ITU or the United Nations more generally or any private sector organizations private sector equivalents can support young entrepreneurs better yeah I think thank you Luke I think if I question correctly I think it's not necessarily always about reinventing things it's about partnering because there's no one organization despite the strength of some that you mentioned there's not one organization that can do this alone so our approach has been very much two fold one as we leverage technology to reduce the costs of delivery and number two we leverage partners and we have in terms of partnerships we have partners that we work with for reach so local context global context our own network serves approximately 2 million youth or has access to yeah serves 2 million youth and then via partners we have access to over 10 million youth around the world and then we work with local partners in the event for example that there's some underprivileged communities that are either youth on the move or youth that come from areas with low digital penetration or can't afford a smartphone of their own then we work with local organizations who actually provide spaces and support so that's an example of partnering for reach then we partner for competencies so again if we talk about contextualizing it's great to have you know that we work with a lot of the large organizations the UNICEFs and the others who have global reach but also have local offices which are critical for us to be able to contextualize what does it mean to be an entrepreneur between Bolivia or in Kenya again or Switzerland for that matter so that's the other piece so again working with subject matter experts for now for example we're working with one of the leading organizations in the fight against climate change to really tailor our programs and our territorial challenges to be climate resilient focus right or to drive up biodiversity so we work with subject matter experts that we don't have in house to be able to do that and then the final one is funding our approach to funding has been so we participate in it we have other partners that kind of already seed funded so we're bringing in other organizations to come on top and complement so the idea is an organization financially can have for the same dollar that is put in or Swiss franc that's put in can have maybe 10x the return it would have if it went in alone that's been our approach and concretely most recently like literally last week we had an organization that just gave a significant amount of money but 100% of it went straight to the youth because all the programs had already been paid for and financed so we didn't even transaction costs were paid for so they literally 100% went straight to the youth in terms of microgrants which would normally cost quite a lot but in their case they just built on top and then they still get the comms and the recognition and all of that good stuff because it's economies of scale. Yeah that's all incredibly interesting I know you've spoken a couple of times about local partners and that sort of thing and I guess that's the bread and butter of good war and it's really interesting and one thing that I wanted to shift the conversation to slightly is thinking a little bit about how partnership works on an individual level so the reason that I brought up your reference to your brother who's obviously your co-founder of good war is because I think there's a lot to be said for peer mentorship and peer coaching and that sort of thing. How important do you think peer mentorship or peer coaching or peer development is particularly for young people these days as opposed to sort of having a formal mentorship by someone a lot older than them who's sort of been there and done that as a work. Yeah in terms of the peer in terms of the peer mentorship I think it's been our approach that our whole pitch has been peer mentorship is actually one of the most effective ways of learning whether it be entrepreneurial or otherwise and I think it comes back down to knowing that someone else is in the same shoes as you and it doesn't mean necessarily it can be peer mentorship from someone in the same class it can be peer mentorship from someone from the other side of the world which is something we've seen so we've had peer mentorship for youth that happens literally between someone in India and someone in the US and they go on this journey together so definitely totally aligned with on that and then in terms of the context of my brother yes 100% so we've been the ability to bounce ideas off each other to be able to have that emotional support is just as important as the 30 to 35 years of experience I do have the privilege of having older mentors and I think that's also important or not say older is not the right word it's more let's say mentors with different experiences I'd say because it doesn't again I don't think age really matters I could have a 19 year old that is much more experienced than me in so many other ways that would be an incredible mentor to me but I think it's about different mixing up let's say a peer and having that diversity and that sounds great and I know I imagine most people on this call have benefited from the perfect mix of both some more experienced mentors and some peer mentors who are really the people that when it comes down to it will be driving you having been in similar shoes in some cases co-founded it with you and I guess one of the unique things when it comes to all these partnerships you talked about these mentor relationships and these business partners in the context of Goodwall is that the world and this is something that's been facilitated a lot more easily since the start of the pandemic do you think there's still barriers that exist whether that be culturally or from in terms of entrepreneurial communities that prevent those relationships being formed between young people or do you think we're now so ingrained in the virtual world that we can form a mentorship relationship with someone from Europe and someone from Africa to provide the sort of slightly different approaches to micro entrepreneurship and that sort of thing that you talked about Yeah I think within the context of mentorship yes I think it can happen virtually really when it comes to the other sorts of relationships that are needed when it comes to entrepreneurship in general or global entrepreneurship it's tough because meeting in person of course allows us to bring down some barriers to bring up some trust I still believe that is to be the case I see that in some of the partnerships we have yes we're lucky to have some partners very very strategic ones that I've never met literally never met and that's fine but it works because there is maybe very close cultural understanding or an ability to speak cross-cultury which is just not the case for many young people who just haven't had the exposure to it previously so I think it's again for youth meeting in person is a way of kind of reducing the barriers to entry in terms of the cross-cultural engagement but then we just have to remember regardless whether they meet in person or not the big challenge and I would say one of the big challenges and inequalities that exist in entrepreneurship but the same applies to applying to one of the international organizations is youth who are not from a similar cultural background as is the norm and cannot speak those words that are going around are greatly at a great disadvantage because we have a bias both subconscious and not subconscious if we think just you know some of the challenges think about the entry requirements to some of the large international organizations they greatly favor people from a certain background because one has to be able to afford to be able to go through x years of education one has to be able to speak a certain amount of language one has the list goes on and on without going into too much detail and the same thing can be applied in the entrepreneurship world if you think about what is required to speak to an investor what is required to speak to certain partners subconsciously we are still leveraging past experiences to decide sometimes again I don't want to generalize but sometimes to decide the credibility of an individual in front of us and if all our life you know we went to a certain university background we went to you know we speak and engage with certain people socially there is a subconscious trust and belief that this is the highest probability to success so I give an example if you went to a well reputed university and then all of a sudden you're like actually I'm going to invest in a youth who comes from sub-Saharan Africa that you know I may not I've never met someone from there before I don't know but for me if I know someone who went to the same university as me I know that I think I'm great so maybe I'll put down 10 million dollars for that person this is the sort of subconscious biases that exist but sometimes conscious biases that exist as well which make it very hard for certain youth and we need to break down those barriers I completely agree I think that what we've talked a lot about over the past half an hour already is the barriers to entry and lowering but actually that does seem to be happening in quite an inequitable way and I think one of the challenges that I've heard discussed at ITU events before and we've been working with as a global visionary board and also Europe Youth Group is like how we achieve that not just in the entrepreneurship space but you make the good point about international organisations as well and how that feeds into policy too I think that's a conversation that I'd love to pick up on if we get time again I think what I wanted to do is leave ample time for questions because I've seen a couple of comments and just ask one more of my own we've talked a lot about failure over the past 25-30 minutes but I wanted to finish on sort of a note of success and particularly think about a lot of the things we've talked about in terms of entrepreneurs that don't necessarily fit the mould and one thing that I've heard a few people talk about recently is whether we're quantifying success in the right way when it comes to entrepreneurs and whether sort of financial profitability and that sort of thing should be the key indicator of success so what do you think should be the key indicators of success in potentially taking your own firm as an example like how do you quantify success and how do we move away if necessary from a really strong focus on just the five actual top and bottom line I think that's a really great point and we could have an entire conversation about that again it's nuanced and there are differences so I can't generalize because the success I think we need to start off with is that the success for one company or organization may be very different to another's and should be quantified differently both can be successful in completely different ways so traditionally you'd say okay shareholder you know shareholder values that means the share price whether it be private or public and that is determined by revenue profit etc etc that may be important for certain companies and organizations but if I think of myself and many others not maybe ourselves yes it's important to have that but you also have the societal impact the positive externality and this is for a certain type of organization the positive societal impact significant positive externalities critical if I think of others if I think back to the micro entrepreneur which again should be just as important and you know someone who literally has she or she has one or two employees this or zero employees it's not about the total sum of revenue or it's not about the total positive externality on society it's about looking on a micro level what are you doing so are you being able to provide income for your family are you being able to send your children to school are you able to have a slight positive impact on let's say the biodiversity of your local community this is just as successful in my opinion and important as an organization as someone who's employing 1000 people with you know X percent of it so I think we have to recognize both cases and and value them as importantly because we need 100,000 of those micro entrepreneurs we need maybe 100 1000 employing organizations as well fantastic thank you so much it sounds like your message is similar to the previous part but there's clearly for people to join this call today a lot of budding entrepreneurs in this call and it sounds like it's just a case of taking a leap in whatever capacity that may be so I've noticed a couple of questions flooding in already through the zoom chat I just wanted to check Victoria would I be okay to call on people to unmute themselves and ask the question if they'd want or do you want me to just read them out yes of course those who would like to ask a question please just raise your hand but I would suggest those who just wrote them in chat you could read them it would be easier thank you perfect okay so the first question Taha is coming from Sayadi who says how can startups leverage followership and reduce failure so we talked about how we can quantify failure is there a way to reduce failure reduce failure yeah I think one can mitigate failure a little bit first of all understanding what's at stake so we say yes jump but jump in a in a how do you say in a risk adjusted way right like limit the probability of becoming homeless is a good one you know so what we say internally to our organization is we're totally cool failing multiple times a day let's try and make sure those failures are not too costly and you can do that you know by applying an agile methodology by working in an iterative way by being lean one can fail while having a minimum impact either on your organization or you as an individual so I'd say that's probably one and then the second is yeah definitely like there's a lot of material out there when I started I think I went through maybe 10-15 books in the first two months when we were starting because I really didn't know much and I was like that was you know learning about what others had done best practices etc you can really learn a lot from what already has happened and of course take with a pinch of salt because very few entrepreneurs who write books talk about the real hardships they go through it it's always super rosy but but it is interesting and there are lessons to be learned either between the lines or in the books themselves or YouTube videos TikTok videos whatever we have a lot of content like that on Goodwall so 100% Fantastic I think that ties in really nicely actually to Celia's question who she was asking about what tips I guess you suggest for a young person, young entrepreneur who's just started from the first step so they've had the idea and they have got the motivation to start a business so do you think that the best way to learn is by jumping in or do you think that maybe a bit of education or mentorship is needed beforehand so what's the balance I guess between the books that you just talked about and just going in and doing the thing yeah I think it's really it's it changes individual to individual my encouragement would be to have you know the courage to just go for it and again if the cost of getting in or low I mean if the cost of failing or low it's okay to fail if the cost of failing is really high I mean if you're building a $500 million infrastructure project probably learn as much as possible beforehand when it comes to the books I read I read those books after I'd started you know I it was it was we were we were trying things while we were going along right so the the point I think I think they go hand in hand I think you're constantly learning and hopefully you never stop learning because you're never going to I don't feel like I'm ready to to I don't feel like I'm ready to build X Y and Z you know I'm learning I'm constantly trying to improve myself literally I have I have coaching sessions I have peer mentors I have feedback from my team from our board from our you know I'm never going I don't think I'll ever be ready and so that's I think the same I don't think anyone's ever ready you're just doing the most you can and you try and learn as much but definitely learning by doing seems to be the one of the most effective ways of going about it but again it changes person by person so I don't want to say the only way of achieving success other friends of mine have done it differently and the many other cases of people who take their time you know if you're slightly more methodological or analytical maybe that's the way to do it but definitely you know I think there's no there's nothing that says that a 17 year old cannot build a business there's no you there's no hard and fast line in the same way that I don't believe we don't recruit a good wall based on a CV or resume we don't ask for a minimum amount of you know a master's degree from a X Y and Z Anglo-Saxon institution we don't ask for that I think this is insane and we I don't think I don't think it applies for entrepreneurship either fantastic answer and hopefully that answered your question Celia and gave you the inspiration as well and I'd like to send now to a question from Daphne who's putting the chat picking up on what you were saying about it being better to meet people in person and also we're making the best out of doing it virtually as well so she said how can we still make it meaningful that the connections that we make when we're meeting people in an online setting which still seems to be the most common thing at the moment as the world slowly starts to open up again I think it's really it's hard right there's no there's unfortunately no silver bullet if we think even about this conversation imagine if we're all together in a room that would be you know exponentially more pleasant but that's just not the case I think look at the silver lining which is these calls allow for conversations I don't know how many countries are represented on this call that would never happen if we were in person right so if we were in person it would be again you're in your bubble you're not able to it's much it's much harder I know ITU runs amazing global events but that's really a small percentage of society these virtual conversations allow us to really have a much wider breath while also you know respecting and being slightly you know significantly more climate friendly as well as cost friendly so I think there's also the advantage on that front in terms of making it successful I personally I try and come in with an agenda I try and come in planned and see what are the outcomes I would like to have from the meeting that I go into but at the end of the day you know maybe the first two minutes couple of jokes if you're not funny like me then just you know try and make some chit chat every four kicking hit you know that the human this is important because a lot of us are spending hours and hours and hours on these and if you're coming in especially if you don't know the person and you jump straight in it's a bit challenging yeah all really good points and like you say so I'm in Beijing at the moment so seven hours ahead of most people on this call and there's something that just wouldn't be possible otherwise so yeah I'm just wondering oh another another question has just come in as well and it's actually one of the questions that I was going to close with for you so Asali you've read my mind and so what resources Taha would you recommend to young entrepreneurs to be on top of things to get new information to stay abreast of the latest news and latest business developments and that sort of thing yeah I think this is a bit again it's it's it's what kind of an entrepreneur or what kind of a business are you starting and it changes significantly depending on where you what you're pursuing so traditionally you'd say if you're looking for venture capital packed funding then you could follow things like andreason Horowitz's blog white combinators blog and there there's a whole bunch of them that exist out there but tech crunch but that's a real risk because you see that those those publications blogs etc really favor a lot of the time a certain model which is venture backed funding and that is not necessary and it devalues it devalues consciously or subconsciously devalues other forms of entrepreneurship for example I come back to the micro entrepreneurship and if we look at the micro entrepreneur you know raising 50 million is not really the most important element to success and sometimes if we tech crunch for example the only thing that matters is how much you raise rather than I mean the only thing again I don't want to devalue that but I just want to say that's what it's all about and as a result a lot of it is about and as a result one can think that that is success where it's coming back down to what is success for an organization that doesn't that doesn't go across across all types of businesses in which case Ashoka has content for social entrepreneurs if you're looking at that Goodwall has content for youth entrepreneurs so check us out as well and we have various challenges that are going on but I can send over a list my big my big feedback is don't just look at don't just look at the most successful entrepreneurs because it might not actually be relevant one final question for you I think it would be rude not to since we've got you on the call I mean just generally I think are there any pieces of advice that maybe you haven't given so far that maybe you wish you'd been told when you were starting out with Goodwall and any advice that you'd give other young entrepreneurs right now that's a good question I advice I think take what people like me say with the big grain of salt I think at the end you know the only person who's responsible for your successes is yourself yes you have mentors, yes you have supporters but at the end at the end you know it's very likely you receive both supporters and detractors for some of the right reasons some of the wrong reasons but at the end of the day you should have the most information and the most data so if you believe in something go for it fail at it it's really your journey and everyone else is hopefully useful to that journey supportive towards that but at the end this is not necessarily a reflection of my own story because I think but I think that's really important because I see a lot of start-up pitches and advisors and the others who with very good intention give certain feedback after having heard about an idea for 45 seconds and based on their own prejudices or what they read in the New York Times in the morning suddenly say that this is an unviable business or this is possible and this is not possible and it's just there's too much at stake for that for an individual yeah there's some really good advice and I think Tali's with a lot of what we've discussed today that there's a hundred different ways to be an entrepreneur it seems like and I guess it's for each individual person to work out what's best for them and I guess I wouldn't say the value of your advice today how it's been an absolute pleasure having you and it's been such an interesting chat and it's such a shame that we're coming to the end of the session now and before we finish I've been told that there's going to be a group photo to sort of preserve this moment so if as many issues as possible would be willing and able to turn your cameras on I think Luisa is going to take a group photo for us and then we can conclude the session and tell us when you're ready so I'm preparing my screen I'm going to make a color review perfect alright I see more faces that's great alright so I'll count to three one two three maybe take one more one two three thank you everyone so thank you perfect thanks so much Luisa it's always the sort of soft cheeks dry eyes because you don't want to be caught mid blink but thank you so much everybody it's been wonderful sharing this time with you today and I hope you all got something useful out of it and thank you once again Taha and see you later thank you Luke thank you everyone bye thank you so much Luke and Taha for this great session it was very encouraging it was very interesting and I think that lots of us got very motivated and starting to maybe plan already something generating some ideas so we reached a midday and now it's a time for a networking lunch so I would suggest us to have a five minutes break and then come back and we will do two breakout rooms and have an opportunity to know which has a better to talk in to talk, to communicate, to network and to make new friends so I have on my clock twelve or one I'll see you in five minutes twelve or six and looking forward to it see you hello everyone Louisa do you hear me well yes yes I can hear you well perfect so while Louisa is preparing breakout rooms I'm inviting Celia and Jia who will lead our breakout rooms to tell you what we are going to do the ladies the floor is yours alright so the breakout rooms are ready and Celia is in one room and Jia is in one room that's correct so I will start the meeting the break rooms out there yes so I'm going to open the rooms right now hi Victoria can you hear me yes yes hi Louisa I can hear you so I see that not everyone is joining the breakout rooms so which means that the room two there are more people connected than the room one okay I'm not sure if it's okay for you like that how many people is in the room two okay so now connected in the room one there are like four or five now there's more less connecting and room two one two three four five six seven eight nine so it's pretty equal now no oh no right now nine in the room two and in room one three people connected okay so maybe maybe would it be possible to transfer it to make it more equal I can do that but now I'm afraid that they are in conversation maybe you can join the room two and offer them the possibility to change by coming to the main room and then I will send them to the room one if you want to join I can just make you in that room yes please okay perfect so how long this is going to last we will do it for half an hour so we could have a little break before we start the third session alright then I'm going to move you to room two right now thank you hi Luisa hi Victoria yeah so actually there were no volunteers to okay they like the worker room then okay okay let me go back maybe can you put me in that room where there are not many people yes thank you 32 years old favorite activity is sport tennis great yeah personally I'm not really good at playing tennis but I enjoy playing badminton which is quite similar for me it is similar yes similar sport but different by rules and playing also yeah Kamran could you go next if you're still here okay got it and then Mibrahim or Dr. Sanifayee or can you hear me yes thank you I was on another call actually apology I was listening to the introduction part I'm from Kamran I've done my masters in economics and mathematics so your questions regarding what do you like in winter the most actually my habit it is now I like and as well as my habit actually is reading different stuff especially books and other things I do like other some games also but the most important thing is reading I like to read a lot yeah that's very activity and then you can learn more things and then it's also relaxing sometimes for me but when you're reading some novels or something like story books or something like that yeah there are so many things new things you learn and actually you are able to explore your mind and you are able to think from different perspective about anything about everything actually so your session was also very good I was listening to that also the main section and hopefully this activity will be also fruitful for everyone yeah I agree with you so if you want we can have more ice breaking questions but as you want we all wanted to be more fruitful so maybe we can also introduce ourselves what you're doing and what is your passion and if you are part of the project or an organization you can also briefly explain the mission and then the objective or like what you want to achieve through this project and also what role you are having within this project or within this organization so I'm I think I already explained myself so yeah so let me explain about myself I told you about my education academics my master's in economics and then informatics the informatics I did from Sweden BTH right now I am doing job in Italian organization it's an international organization beyond in commercial division so my main role is related to planning and analysis and it is because it's a telecom organization so we have to plan more related to digital things so traditional telecommunications services are actually waiting they are no more they are actually on the planning side and the need for change is required and the way modern world is ahead that's why I have joined this digital session also so I wanted to learn something new which actually I might be missing so I can add in my job also this is the area which I think digital growth and how it is going to play an important role in 5 to 10 years especially from this perspective so this is a very short about my academic and professional so I want I am actually very open for learning right now from this forum any kind of valuable information will be definitely helpful the most important area will be from government perspective because I asked the question also in main forum actually I myself deal I am in a private organization but deal a lot with government so one of the main challenge I have seen which I from last few years it is quite challenging to transform government digital transform although they say that they are doing a lot but government has some limitations in private organization it's quite easy but in government you it's a very cumbersome process so from that perspective anyone can add or share their story how they have done and how they in government's area so that will be something which will be valuable for me or if you have any questions from my side also I will try to add value also so is there anyone who can answer the question I think right now no one is I think from government side it's fine it's okay camera what I can do is I can also share my email address and then if you need more resources from the IT office for Europe I can share with you yeah I think that's the thing that I can do because IT is doing a lot doing a lot with government that I have attended so some of most of them I might miss so if you can share definitely I will ask few of my questions so if you can definitely help me regarding those questions yeah I totally see your point also digital transformation to digital growth is also creating more impact not only in the digital society it's more like also other other parts like environment and also like economic growth and everything is all linked to the digital growth so yeah I really agree that this topic is getting more and more important and also interesting and one more if no one else is speaking right now I am sitting in a city which in which from last few days or weeks especially on number one in the most from air quality point of view which is very alarming and which is not definitely is not good so I was just thinking today but because we interact with the government so I was just thinking other than the initiatives taken by the government I am not talking about those initiatives from digital perspective but we can do to reduce this this air quality poor air quality index because currently what the government is doing which I don't know if my topic is going here and there but currently what our government is doing is they are making few of days for the organizations to work for home for government and private they are attending school days of instead of five days they are attending them on for three or four days but these are short term solution what I think we need to think something which is more sustainable for long run so if this is also one of my questions from environment point of view which is very serious concern right now for our city government the whole world also it is a big challenge for everyone it's a huge challenge when we consider the covid and also digital literacy and also not all the students have the same digital devices or the capacity so that's why also the ITU is supporting the government to improve the to solve the digital divide within groups in their population and especially between male and also females and also young generation and also old generations and also people with disabilities so I can also find some information that the ITU are doing for improving this situation and yeah considering the all the things linked to the covid and also isolation and quarantine this is a very challenging issue and definitely we need more efforts in this field totally agree totally agree with you so anyone else from the forum yeah you have to say something I would I'm sorry I'm just gonna call people by name Yosef can you maybe introduce yourself or Susanna yeah sure so I'm currently studying my PhD and also university so I'm an architect which like my main master I did it in convergence engineering for future city and now I'm my PhD I'm doing it in urban planning and engineering so the reason why I was very interested in the ITU conferences and yeah all of the resources that we have been given because it might help to my research in general so I am very open just to listen to other speakers and their passions about digital technology because to me it's a very relevant topic especially nowadays that we are talking about a smart city and how to digitalize every single aspect in it yeah thank you for your answer actually that's also the the field that I'm most interested in I'm also doing the master in environment sustainability and resources and the reason that I'm joining the ITU is also like how the digital technologies can improve the environmental problems and also like how to solve the or how to help government or the society to mitigate the climate change and also like adapt to the climate change so yeah smart cities and yeah the future cities are so interesting because like there are a lot of frontier technologies that can be deployed to positively effect on the sustainability of cities so yeah do you particularly work for the deployment of any frontier technologies in cities or like infrastructure projects for my master's I used to do more about it which was more about smart factories and how to make construction smarter on special taking track on how to keep the health of the workers in a better condition using technologies and then yeah the few projects that I worked in were just basically smart factories and policy control but I like hopefully with my PhD nowadays I think there are more projects on how to do I can participate in more related to the urban planning on smart cities which would be my goal in long term yeah that's great so Susanna and Kamran in your opinion do you think the youth generations are getting more engaged in the policy making process for smart cities or for improving the digital divide or in the digital transformation policies do you have any opinion on it if you want to share well I do I do think that there are more conferences events that allow youth to at least speak from our research or from our point of view on how to create new policies for smart cities or just retrofitting the city so I think it's up to us that we are living in a new era of technology to speak and implement new ways that can help us in the future and the future generations so yes I do think we are creating a change and there are more opportunities for us to speak about it yeah great thank you for your answer Kamran did you want to add something more thank you from our side yes they are actually playing their role I would not say completely yes or no they are trying their best to to but as far as the core policies are concerned as I earlier said it's very sometimes it is very difficult to convince government to change what they have been doing from last many years so yes in some areas we face some challenges but there are some areas where the voice is being heard and things are being implemented especially the participation of the youth is it has very increased comparatively if we look into the past it has increased a lot which is a good sign what I really feel in the policy making also their voice should be there should be some mechanism should be device or organizations or whatever the platform where their voice should be registered or should play an important role in policy making so this is one area which I don't have the answer right now exactly what should be that this is the main player so ITU the influence of ITU on the government will be very high but a small organization of youth I think they will not be able to actually influence the government so there has to be some platform good platform from where the youth can actually actually convince governments to transform or they change their policies which is more required in the future yeah I totally agree with you sorry about the background noise I see Yousef you are also on the hello yes could you introduce yourself briefly my name is Yousef Benzikri I'm 32 years old from Morocco so could you please explain how you introduce sorry so so I'm working at fire company as a account manager we are operating on the real estate sector so so I have experiences on off-chain sector so in a special energy sector panel photovoltaic and with many certification on energy sector and and banking also this is my presentation so within the sector that you are working on do you see more engagement in real estate so we are selling land of villa that's great so do your organization encourage the engagement of the youth or do you feel like the field of the real estate or your organization needs more engagement from youth generation yes we encourage this before the organization is on the county side 20 kilometers for the city I live far from the city 20 kilometers that's why we encourage the sustainability yes that's very nice so I want to move on to the next question if you have still some time so like after the session we met Mr. Tawa Bawa and how do you think young entrepreneurs can be encouraged and supported from your perspective it can be linked to the field that you are working on or also if your organization have or promote any kind of mentorship programs I know I think it's a bit different because you said you are working in a private company and Susana you are doing a PhD program so maybe it's a bit different but if you want to share your opinion on how the young entrepreneurs can be encouraged and supported by the society if you have any opinion just share it please thank you yeah I guess it's a hard question to answer so I would like to also suggest to take a group photo but I see it's not convenient for you to turn on the camera so it's also fine you can also find me on LinkedIn and you can just send any emails to me if you have any further questions or something and then if you want to connect with the people who have participated in this event we can also connect you guys so please write me an email if you are interested in getting in touch with the others and now that we have about 20 minutes if you want if you have any particular issues or any particular topics that you want to know more about how ITU is working on since it's also lunchtime so you might also want to have some time to eat something just let me know and then I will try to find some documents or relevant events or information from the site of ITU and I can just help you and I can just share it on the chat so just feel free to let me know which topic you want to know further or like what effort ITU is making just let me know and also feel free to jump in whenever you want to whenever you want to share something or ask something to me or other people here just for your information I just share the link on the event that ITU Office for Europe is planning to have we still have three other events planned in December so you can have a look and if you're interested please register the event so on the 15th of December we have the event sorry event on digital transformation based on ICT innovations for the development of the digital economy and also the second one is going to be the approaches of the U.S. system to support digital transformation and then the third one will be the E-Waste monitoring it's an event with a close collaboration with UNEP and UNITAR as well so I guess all of these topics were mentioned by you so this will be very interesting oh yeah Sajana asked me the question I studied in IWA from South Korea I studied in Seoul at the IWA Women's University so and I studied political science and international relations but at the same time I did an honors program on the social sciences and when I did my study I realized that there were a lot of missing also in the politics about the environmental issues or climate change at least I feel like there was some absence of environment effects in South Korea so I started more about environmental policies especially international environmental cooperation between countries and then first I was really interested in the governance environmental governance but then I wanted to be more practical I wanted to know more about what policies or what solutions we can actually implement in our society and one of the solutions that I got more interested in was digital technologies because it's a lot of private companies industries governments and society are making more efforts to make the society more digitalized and I think it's the path that all society will eventually follow and then I wanted to see how this development of digital technologies can help to improve our environmental situation and how we can solve the climate crisis that we are facing so that's what I'm doing now and then now I'm interested in also the infrastructure because the infrastructure should come first to deploy or to use the ICTs so that's why I'm joining the IT office for Europe and helping the infrastructure policies and then I did my internship at the European Parliament it was really a great opportunity for me to understand that European politics is better and how the NGOs and other social actors and then the countries are cooperating together not especially just to solve the issues but then like how they cooperate and how they compromise some issues that they have differently or they share in common I don't know like I really explained it well but I hope it was interesting I think it's really interesting I didn't know that you I was just scrolling through your LinkedIn and I saw that you were from IWA because I was just like yeah is she or is she not from South Korea because I was just like yeah she gives me the vibe but well I'm very glad to see that your career path has gone that way I know that in here at least it's the climate change and climate related policies are very like not taking too much into consideration yet but I don't know like over the past 7 years that I have been living in South Korea I can see how the progress has been regarding policies so yeah like I'm very very very happy to see that you are interested in this area possibly I don't know if you plan to come back to Korea or not but I think it's like you would make a great change in society here thank you thank you that's yeah very touched it depends I want to stay I'm currently based in Geneva I'm doing my study and also doing the internship I'm gonna see like how my career path will develop but I want to definitely stay in this field for the use of digital technologies for climate change injection or environmental problems so for me it really doesn't matter where I'm based I'm really open to any country and I can adapt to any culture so I just want to ask what was his name the interview we had during the session too as he mentioned that I just want to see like how I can create positive impacts in the society and that will be the definition of success for me as well yeah I also like yeah like thought a lot if I have to stay here or if I have to come back to Korea or where I should apply for my job and everything and I sometimes feel like oh I don't know I also want to be successful in my life and I was also thinking like what is the success in the life and also what is the failure and then I came across the freight saying there is no failure in our lives so that was the best motivation for me to think more about how then I can contribute to the society I mean my life wouldn't be a failure but then how I can contribute more and how I can create positive impacts and then that will be I hope my career path is also creating this positive impacts especially for the environment and also to help a lot of people who are really facing the whole I don't know how to say it because people who are really facing the crisis and then the life is changing because of the environmental issues I will turn on my camera and like right now I am on the office we can have face to face conversation at least so like probably during your intern in ITU you have probably met people that have become your mentors or those whose career you think you can follow in this case which kind of encounters have been the ones that you think have changed the way that you see this whole subject or your own concept of how it has changed after all of these experiences thank you so first because I studied political sciences I didn't really think about the environmental policies before that was the moment when I was in France for my exchange semester I met a lot of young students especially they were more like European students but I really met a lot of people who really cared about environmental things like they avoid using plastic bags or they always thought about their behavior like how their behaviors are making negative impact in the environment and that actually really changed my behavior as well I really didn't really think about that like individual behavior really creates like a huge impact in the society I didn't really, I thought about it but then I didn't really think about the environment aspect so I wanted to study more about the environmental policies like how the human beings are changing their behaviors and how the policies are making or leading the society in the right direction and then I did my research at IWA so she was also the one who encouraged me to go abroad to study and I did a research project with her about how not digital technologies but the technologies can help the society or help the countries to to contribute to environmental cooperation or to help to mitigate the negative environment impacts fatally and I really loved it so that was like but still I was more into the environmental governance but then when I saw all the COP negotiations then I really felt like every country, every actor they have their own priorities so then I wanted to know more about the practical solutions that don't really negatively affect their priorities but then they can create a synergy to solve the issues and then the digital technologies were kind of the one that can create the synergy for their economic growth and also create more impacts like the use of IoT Internet of Things for example that can be implied it can be deployed within the energy sector for example and that can also help and also like in the agriculture sector there are a lot of use cases that make positive impacts sorry like today I'm a bit tired so no no no I understand no but you make a lot of sense like I can see how it has just where you come from and where you're at right now which is the important thing and I understand that you're tired because probably this is taking a lot of your mental like capacity and also at the European Union when I was doing my internship at the moment there was negotiation and also the discussion on the European Green Deal so that was there was also some part that I okay maybe yeah they was also considering the digital technologies to help people who were going to to help to support people to find a job and then to improve the digital literacy and then how the digital technologies can also be used in the for the Green Deal project also it's happening in South Korea as well so because they want to combine the digital technologies and then the green green economy all together so that was also gave me an inspiration that for me to decide like what I want to study more and what I want to do for my career to take any part of nothing that negotiations of course but just in the process of it I was more like an observer because I was interning at the communication sector but then I had an opportunity to just sit during the meeting or during the discussion or when the political parties when they had meetings or some events or forum inviting other citizens and also stakeholders then I could also join and then see how they are discussing