 Welcome everyone. I'm Leila Halal, the director of the Middle East Task Force at the New American Foundation and we have with us a very exciting group of speakers from Egypt. I'm very pleased to welcome them. We're also being recorded by C-SPAN. Welcome to the viewers. Can you please mute your cell phones and for the panelists turn them off? Okay, excellent. So to my immediate right is Ahmed Mahir. He is the co-founder and chief coordinator of the April 6 youth movement which stresses non-violence and collective action. The April 6 movement is quite well known for Egypt followers. They were active and mobilizing workers and citizens leading up to and during the January 2011 revolution. Ahmed was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for his pioneering activities in community mobilization and he continues to play an important role in Egypt's political scene promoting democratic principles and social and economic inclusion through his movement. Jawad Nubulsi is a leading activist in Egypt was also very present on the scene in January 2011 activities uprising. Do we call it a revolution? I'm not sure. He is co-founder of the Nebney Foundation which is ranked as one of the fastest growing NGOs in Egypt. They focus on social justice and citizen responsibility and Jawad is founded the leadership for change program which emphasizes entrepreneurial activity amongst youth in Egypt. He is also a founder of the Legislative Support Council which was organized to formulate draft laws for submission to the People's Assembly. I'm not sure if you're still active with this organization but Jawad is also advising or was advising several members of Parliament and political parties and is a board member of the Egyptian Water Regulatory Agency. Noor Lak is a senior policy analyst at the International Peace Institute, a think tank linked to the United Nations in New York. She focuses on transitions in the Arab world and has done a very in-depth research project on youth movements and youth activism in Tunisia and Egypt and she will soon be publishing this work. She also looks at issues of foreign policy in the intersection of the Arab uprisings and international policy towards the Amina. So we welcome Noor as a discussant to help us broaden the conversation through a comparative lens. Ahmed, I'm going to start with you and ask you some questions about your movement. Egypt has had two rounds of elections, first the parliamentary elections at the end of 2011 and then the presidential elections and your movement chose not to participate in these elections and you continue, as I understand, to adopt a different approach to political activism in Egypt. Former Secretary Clinton was critical of this decision by youth groups and by different organizations not to participate in elections. So I'm wondering if you can help us understand your movements, your movements decision not to participate in elections and your philosophy of activism and the kinds of activities you're engaging in now. Okay, first of all, I thank you about this opportunity and this question also. It was a discussion after the revolution in our movement that what is the rule we can play after the revolution? It's a political party or dissolving the movement or what? So it seems like the instability will stay in Egypt during the transition period. So it's very important to have a political party and politicians running the elections. It's very important and also it's very important to have a lobbying group and watch the groups and pressure groups to advocate the process for democracy. So it's our rule. We can, politicians or political parties can participate in the elections and our rule to make a pressure, our rule to advocate, to watching, to support any good efforts and be against any bad efforts, keep a struggle against any dictatorship or something like that. So we didn't participate in the elections. Also it was the rules of the elections and these roads from the referendum in March 2011, it was wrong roads to leading for democracy. So we criticized the referendum of the constitution in 2011 and we didn't participate in the elections in November. But the first participating in the election was in 2012 and it was big event that we supported Morsi. Because in the presidential elections we said we need just one candidate to support from the revolution and we asked all the revolution candidates to be united and they refused. So the second round between Morsi and Shafi, we didn't support Shafi. So we supported Morsi to step down Shafi and that is the first, our first participating and supporting someone in the election. Now in this election, depending about the celebration front decision, maybe we haven't official candidates in our movement. The majority want to keep struggle not to participate as politicians but we have four or five or ten members want to participate and also I'm working with Jawad in something like that to bring the use for many movements to participate in the elections. But we need a united list for the opposition against Muslim Brotherhood and this decision must agree from celebration front and all the movement so the decision is not now. It's not clear till now about the elections. So the national salvation front is the secularist opposition movement which had sort of coalesced in response to actions by the Morsi government that are viewed as authoritarian. They originally said they were boycotting the elections and recently we've heard that they may be stepping away from this position. Can you tell us a little bit about what that decision is based on and whether or not actual participation by the opposition is likely? For me personally I support the idea of participating in the elections because we have a chance now the popularity of Muslim Brotherhood now is down not like before because they they have many bad decisions and there's a chemical crisis in Egypt now they can't govern Egypt and now so the opposition have a chance to win and get the majority in elections but salvation front see that the rules of the game is controlled by Muslim Brotherhood and the authority and there is no enough international observation. There is many tricks and many games played in the election so they will not running and they will not participate in the election until it's if they sure that is clear and fear election so the decision till now is not clear for salvation front we support the idea of participating and we try to convince them to participate. They said it's a fake game fake election so we will not participate. And before we move on to Jawad and bring him in can you tell us a little bit about the activities of of your April 6 movement now aside from the question of the elections. What what are your main focus areas in terms of mobilizing people and in this current environment in Egypt? Unfortunately after the revolution we we consider that it's now freedom and the mission succeeded so we will participate in social efforts and services and build the new Egypt but we we found the same situation the same the leadership the same rules our members arrested now and put in the jail and sometimes have a torture so our rule now to keep struggle against this regime this regime is the same old regime but have a religious atmosphere or a religious shape but the same rules the same constitution the same law the same behavior the same strategy the same politics so we need to keep a struggle until step down all of that regime so our rule now it's unfortunately like before the revolution. Jawad you are leading this new NGO that's very focused on working with communities to achieve change perhaps before the politicians actually bring it to to the Egyptians so can you tell us a little bit about what your organization is doing and your perspective given the current state of politics in Egypt. So in the beginning we a group of us took a different path than most of the other revolutionaries so we said we need to go down to the people who actually we we rallied for and make them feel that the revolution has did some kind of positive influence because at the end of the day the normal Egyptian I mean like in a human being he cares about his basic needs you know education health food security you know housing so if they don't if people and this is and this is what actually give us give us legitimacy or give us any kind of support is that people were standing behind this so if we did not go down and show the people that we have done and this revolution has has done something positive in these elements then we didn't revolution would not have succeeded so we went to one of the largest some areas in Egypt with the million 200,000 population and we took a street and we just decided to make it a model street in terms of education health environment and see what are the core problems and on the other hand we we know that on the long term that for us to continue struggling that we need to have a proper a proper organization that can actually support us our support our struggle on the long time and this needs time I mean if you're talking about the Muslim brother they've been there for 80 years I mean and one of the reason that you don't find the revolutionaries on on the scene is because most of them are drained out either lost their jobs they can't you know they're really tired exhausted emotionally and this is because you don't have a backing of an organization or a structure that actually can you know replace them when they're tired and have someone speak that time and someone else comes later and next so luckily now we have you know a full-time staff eight full-time staff we have our work has affected around 200,000 people and we're self-funding and one of the reasons I'm here for such a I mean quite a I mean time now is because things are running without me there and this is this is what what we believe is that all of us should be doing I mean whether on politics or on the civil society level to create sustainable institutions yeah and can you tell us a little bit about your work and this one street in in Cairo what what you've done and what you've been able to achieve so we basically took like we took the houses and the people living inside it so seven free houses and people living inside and analyze what are their main issues so and I took an apartment I moved there for like I stay there three or four times a week so we found that the number one issue was employment because most of the people have been affected by the tourism industry and most of them are workshops that actually fund the tourism industry so what we did is that we went to we went with all these workshops met over like 300 of them and made redesigned their products and created a market for them and exhibitions and this created a lot of people working and a lot of people getting back to work in terms of healthcare you know I don't know people know this but we have one of the highest rate of virus in the world I I did not know that actually it was that bad right of hepatitis C so we have a so 18% of the different population do I have hepatitis C and and and that's a disaster and and this is actually one of the crimes so we started you know working on prevention programs and Hamdulillah and we found there was a medical center in the area the main one and it has been closed for five years the government just totally forgot about it and it took us two years to fight the government to allow us to take it and open it they wouldn't give it to us because they thought we have a international you know we are the spies and so on so forth so under Mubarak this is under the new year so two years you know I mean two years trying to open a medical center to help the people with no political agenda whatsoever just so hard so you've opened this clinic we're no we just good we got the reason to open the clinic and they gave us like a four months time spent if we don't actually raise fundraise and open it then we they take it back again so such such a huge efforts for one small clinic what is your prospect then what how do you see Egypt going in the in the medium term you mean economically or you mean economically politically I mean what given our people in the given your activities are people enthusiastic about the prospect of change are they more engaged do you are you optimistic given your experiences so so so people would involve the solution has has gone through a curve so we were really celebrated in the beginning of the revolution and then it went down hill from there and what we realized just recently like maybe three four months ago that people are coming back and saying like you know where have you guys been I was like where have we been so so I'm people now are realizing that the youth the ones who are involved in the revolution the ones who actually have no personal interest in other than we love the country and we want the best or maybe the best candidates to run for so for them talking about now we're working on a youth list to run for parliament and and I'm talking to like like many different different youth who are under 40 this is one of the requirements and of course we're fundraising for it and whether people like it or not but we're coming within the next five six seven ten years we will hopefully and if we don't get killed by the we will outlive we will outlive that what's going on right now and we will be organized we'll be funded we will have institutions we will have structures I mean the legislation legislation committee is probably the first committee to work on not actually getting a seat in parliament but actually having legislation that can be passed in parliament so I mean most of the people who are running for parliament and asked all the parties they don't have a legislative agenda which is a disaster and the parliament before people would come to me in parliament tell me do you have a legislation that you know might be good that we work on and that's a problem so I'm optimistic because it's one of the positive things is that people are still mobilized is that right Ahmed you is there is there a fear that that people have given up on on the notion of revolution and big transformative change and they're becoming increasingly apathetic and that will lose traction or is there this sense of optimism that Jawad is speaking of that is that will sustain longer term change yes it's it's a pretty important that the people keep a struggling to achieve our demons and also I think it's a it's a good rule that if we keep struggle and keep demonstrate and keep pressure against the wrong issues and the bad rules and any the courtship and it's a good cooperation with Jawad in his efforts and sometimes now we try to learn from the social efforts that now we a pre-sex we make a branch as a NGO as a foundation to connect the street and the people now with services to also it will help to mobilizing and at the time of voting sometimes so yes it makes me optimistic that is the new generation now they will not stop until we have real freedom and real dignity and real social justice so if we stop struggle if we said okay I want to keep my job and I want to live in peace so there is a new generation 18 years old 20 years old will keep no so it said that the issues make me optimistic okay so in terms of achieving a change at the macro level which can sustain a new Egypt I'm curious to get from the both of you your perspective on what is the biggest challenge for Egypt is it the regime remnants is it the failing institutions and the political inertia or is it political Islam or is there a fourth factor that that is a major barrier I mean how do you sort of measure these challenges in terms of your political activism and what should we stay focused on and benchmarking Egypt's all of this is shown all of them we have a chemical crisis and most of the hood they can doing well there is no jobs there is very bad salaries there is no education they they haven't plans to make that I remember that after the revolution I we met the the staff the Supreme Ministry Council and we give them many projects about how to develop the traffic security education how to build the new factories industrial factories and good jobs and they ignored everything how to change the government how to change security and they ignored everything and they protected the same regime and now is mercy I met president mercy four times from July until November 2012 and me and my colleagues in many movements represent to him many projects with many expertise and many research researchers from many institutions in Egypt about how to make development in the security in traffic and how to solve economical crisis how to have alternatives but he ignored everything and insisting on to keep the same regime keep the same mentality and protect the authority so the priority for us to to break or to prevent this dictatorship they want to be like the NDB the Mubarak party in the authority they want to keep the authority they afraid from losing anything they promised us in the beginning when when we voted and we supported more see they promised us you are my our partners the vice president will be from outside Muslim Brotherhood the Prime Minister will be from outside Muslim Brotherhood it will be very liberal and very good terms in Egypt it will be very good constitution for all Egyptian I am the president of all Egyptian but they broke promises they ignored any promise after that so that is the miss of trust make this conflict between the opposition and the Muslim Brotherhood and a jawad you yes so I have from my three main issues one issue we underestimated is what people sometimes called the deep state in Egypt right that actually in every aspect that we actually try to interfere we find a big enemy that has special financial interest that they're willing to actually die for and fight you and threaten your life so you don't touch it so for example we we built a school and we we we have an education program for the kids in school and and and the ones who actually were filing the police complaints against me were the teachers of the schools because I'm I'm you know I'm there they're charging like a hundred pounds per month and I'm charging like 10 pounds per month to just to educate the child the other thing is the corruption in every in in education and health in environment in in in all I can tell you stories about how like like what people are doing and and every every system is like a mafia from the I mean the governor is new is his I mean he changed like twice but from one from that below the government all the way down they had this a complete system that is it's so hard to fight on your own and and and they have their ways and without actually you know people you know nothing to put you down the second thing I think and and this has been obvious more and more when we talk with younger people with different ideologies the generation where I think there's a there's a generation gap that no matter how much you try to talk to them someone has been used to doing a certain or acting on a way for 40 years or 50 years so hard now to come and try to explain and and communicate you know the innovative solutions they look to you as if you are you know you're coming from a different different planet so and this is we just have to out live them hopefully if we continue the third thing I just have the last one is the ideological issue I think I think maybe you over emphasize you know the ideological issue too much and unfortunately and we were at a Camp David like thing we had all that was in Williamsburg we had a group of all like the political parties including the Muslim brother and Muslim brotherhood and all the rest is that the young we will all in Tahir Square everyone right different ideology we didn't have that issue what I'm worried about is that the older generation are feeding within the younger generation there the ideological what do you call it like you know roughness and stubbornness and trying to disperse us so I think you know these are the three main issues and I know I'm taking too much time no no please I think that that's a very interesting notion that you're you're fighting you're fighting tradition and ideology and I assume that ideology goes beyond political Islam yeah to being sort of a deference to authority and hierarchy because I've heard a lot of people in different countries that are going through uprisings and revolutions say that the youth are very worried about people coming in and attempting to recreate centralized authorities no matter where they come from no matter if they're coming from the Islamist wing or or a liberal wing so nor maybe you can comment a bit on sort of youth activism and given your comparative research between Egypt and Tunisia and sort of the expectations that the youth have and in this new era yeah well I found that most youth are active in civil society and not in political parties because they I mean this means that from the outside they're seen as being disenfranchised and marginalized but they themselves tend to see civil society as where the power is so one of the people interviewed said that to you politics is power but to her it's society where power lies and there's still this sort of legacy of mistrust when it comes to politics because of the last five decades of authoritarian rule and this feeling of frustration with the current political parties that they're only interested in in power as opposed to actually resolving any of the issues that they've been talking about and finally also feeling months youth that they're not ready to actually participate within the political system right now so that takes us back to what are they doing in civil society there I found that they're much more focused on right space issues or playing the role of watchdog over parliament or the constitution process and which has actually led to some criticisms that there's not enough focus on issues of social justice I mean yours is obviously one of the groups that's working on that issue but on the whole I found that in my interviews it tended to be the Islamist leaning youth endures that were focusing on social development work which again is kind of a legacy of what existed before the revolution and in terms of is that do you want sort of an overview or and so the Islamist youth are focused on social justice what are the more liberalized youth well and I think that that raises an interesting question because in terms of the road to political power in the future who is going to kind of build a better base is it going to be the youth who are focusing on citizens rights issues or the ones who are focusing on development work and so that's something to think about I mean how are you balancing this notion between certain the need to actually continue the large-scale political changes and changing at the top so that you can build these these different kinds of institutions in which it takes your people into the street with the need to actually serve the people's interest in having basic needs mad I mean how do you how do you balance those competing demands on revolutionary actors so in our organization for example that we need to keep a struggle so we need to when we see something bad we demonstrate or make a pressure again in that and sometimes they arrest somebody of our members and put him in the jail with any charges and demonstration so sometimes stop or make obstacles to any social efforts or building base in the street it's make all the movement sometimes focusing about how to make these guys inside the jail free and how to make a pressure to make them free and this strategy used by the regime they every week you can find if you follow the news in Egypt you every every day you can find someone in the jail from the movements every sex and other movements so it's it's make us sometimes having time to make any efforts in the street social efforts or building bases or speed awareness or something like that but now in our group and with other groups try to make groups small groups to think or like small think tanks and the small groups in the foundation and we help with the social NGOs like Jawad and other other groups to to complete our efforts pressure groups and NGOs and political parties to work together to build alternative and now there is many efforts now to build the alternative Muslim Brotherhoods have a machine have a money have a number have a strategy have NGOs so they they won many elections because they have a machine and have experience from more than 80 years and now we want to build alternative between cooperating with pressure groups and parties and NGOs to complete our efforts okay and what are the chances that you'll be able to build an effective coalition of opposition movements to to have you know to make a difference in the electoral realm the problem in that that we are in the beginning maybe in case you want democracy I don't think there's one but we are in the beginning after the revolution it was more than 30 years in dictatorship no it's a circus tears no political parties no one can talk his opinion free no one can establish a political party or make a meeting without its security so now it's open so we need to learn how to organize ourselves we need to learn how to make organization organization like movements real movements a real political party so it will take a time and what's the role of the US as a donor country as a it's an important influential diplomatic force in the region in enabling this this what you're laying out is a very long term trajectory towards real change so in Egypt you know we want to we want to as away from from the revolution but if we agree or not agree US have a rule before the revolution US supported Mubarak they was afraid from Muslim brotherhood and Islamists so they supported Mubarak and they give him a green light to do anything after the revolution US supported the staff US supported ministry council and they give him a green light to do anything now US supporting Muslim brotherhood they use the same strategy in Egypt we don't want tear gas US supporting Muslim brotherhood with tear gas so we don't we don't need tear gas so the problem that if US want to support something support democracy supporting NGOs for example the American NGOs and after the revolution it's working very hard to make a training to the new organization Egypt but after the NGOs trials with the military it's a deal between the military and US government put American NGOs away from Egypt and it will be a peace relation between Egypt and US now there is no American NGOs in Egypt now the Egyptian in this case in trial and also Americans also like ropers in the same trial in Egypt so it's a relation is benefits now between government and government and don't care about its principles right so Javad yes so so one thing about elections because you want to be realistic is that so we were setting a budget for like every seat the part of it so I mean a minimum of half a million Egyptian pounds which is probably like now $90,000 so and when I was talking to other parties you know and how much budget do they have so they have like a million five hundred thousand for every seat so this also I mean very clear logistical issues and financial issues that even if we have people wanting us and all that stuff we don't have the financial means to to do that and and unfortunately a lot of people have been apathetic and just watching and just criticizing the living the lives on Facebook and they know just Twitter and saying all this stuff and when it comes to the real issue and okay so pay you know and in supporting a candidate instead of I'm talking about my family and all my friends I know this I'm not just talking about like other people and no they're not really suggesting that the US should give more I'm not this is before that the question before the US I would get killed if you just put this sentence no so I'm talking about Egyptians even Egyptians abroad that they can actually pay and they're allowed legally to pay for for elections to to fund this is there's legally there's no problem so that's the first question so financial issue is a big issue and we can have much more seats if we have financial means the second issue about the US intervention I I mean I I I don't know there's so much to say but yeah I'm trying to be politically correct but I think you know the US will interfere whether we like it or not and maybe as I said you know there are very obvious I mean the a lot of the government officials come here and they talk with them and I think things have become much more clear on what are the the major problems so I think if we continue in the future and raising issues about freedom and and actually as Ahmed said in supporting NGOs giving trainings and so on so forth there'll be education there's a lot of things that have no there's no you know disagreement much about I mean you have good universities here you have very good education programs yeah on the financial issue there's a difference between Egypt and Tunisia whereas in Egypt obviously it's seen as toxic to be accepting US money but in Tunisia it's seen that everybody is doing that from the government right down to the smallest three-person NGO but beyond financial aid I think there's a lot that the US can do and this is from my interviews with people where their suggestions were that they're interested in more partnerships and sort of horizontal interactions so for example the Social Democrats in Tunisia have a trainer from the Labour Party come in Labour Party in England come in to help them with messaging branding and organization and similarly in Egypt I've sort of well talked to Ahmed about OTPO and then also how one can study or interact with movements here whether it's something like move on or even the Tea Party actually to learn about how you can be a pressure group or a lobby group so and also more sort of people-to-people exchanges whether it's between jurists or between those in the legislature or students and what about political messaging should should the US be sending different messages to the to the president of Egypt to President Morsi and what would those messages be I don't know what is exactly this message but I think the messages that must come from US to the president and the government in Egypt that's it's a process of democracy and US will not stop supporting in the leadership because they supported the staff and now I think the message that it will be very harm to US if US supports a new dictatorship so the message must coming from US that we will not support anything against real democracy and if the US intervenes in that way and starts commenting on the situation in Egypt does that work in the brotherhoods favor given the perceptions of US meddling historically I think yeah you're right I mean some some of these messages actually was you know it would give a you know an evidence that the Muslim brotherhood is actually not with the US government and they'll give them a public support on the ground so I think the messaging is the messaging I mean I know like Senator Kerry went spoke about the turkey issue you know he actually caused he could have sent that message behind the scenes and and and you if the US wants to really send a message you don't have to do it I mean we all understand there's different ways to to messaging and and if you really want to put a point across you you will put it across without actually you know doing it in a public way yeah I think that's a good point there's one question I want to ask before we open it up to the audience and and that is this issue of whether or not youth are being pushed too much into the NGO sector because we've talked about the the problem of corruption in state institutions the fact that the older generation is is dominating through promotion of ideology through their presence long-term presence in institutions I mean should should the youth actually be more engaged and should we be supporting youth presence in state institutions more rather than constantly pushing them into the NGO sector am I correct in thinking this is this is a problem and and how do we actually address it and the NGO sector yes because youth are very active your group is very active in the streets in and you know creating think tanks and promoting new ideas a jawad is working at the local level in a very commendable way nor you've talked to different youth groups but I mean are we are youth too inclined to to resort NGO activism rather than engaging in institutions are is is US assistance money or foreign aid going too much into the NGO sector and not enough in supporting the development of of youth presence in institutions do you I think NGOs is its role is very important in Egypt because NGO can make a training to political parties NGOs can make a training to movements like upper sex NGOs can make a development in the street NGOs can sweet awareness and because our our struggle and our war not not with the the regime only no it's with the old principles and the old regime the old ideas so it's a long term war so NGOs will help in that to help us and help political parties and help another NGOs to to spread awareness and helping people to how to vote and don't take a money and vote for someone no thank you before voting but then how do you penetrate those ideas into the institutions draw it I think that's an amazing question because so in the beginning for example several of us was I was nominated youth minister and I declined and and one of the major issues is that we are in a process the last thing we want is to do the same mistake people in government now are doing is that learning by doing so you're practicing on the people right so one of the ways is NGOs is a process is a stage to actually understanding the real problems and finding real solutions so I think I agree that on on on the short long term that we will eventually be put in government and we're taking a step by a bit so so for example I'm now the youngest guy I mean by 30 years on the on the water and the sewage council it's a council that oversees like billions of investments in the in the in the infrastructure of Egypt and you're learning you're discovering new things and and so so I think it's a matter of I agree it's a matter of time that we have to be in the government but we have to be ready and prepared and one of the programs that Ahmed is with me and other active revolution is is the leadership for change this is a program we did for six months in which we brought government officials previous government officials we brought different experts and we had people explain how the government and how things actually work in Egypt and what are some of the solutions or concrete solution that I that can be done so when we are ready and when we are we are it's not a matter of getting positions but also having the content and the thing that we can do real change I mean what's the purpose of getting position and we can do the change that people hate you after that and that's an ethical responsibility that I feel that we have to do it before we take any position nor what's your perspective do do the youth have enough trust in the institutions of state at this point to to want to engage one and two is foreign assistance being directed too much into the NGO sector how to balance out the these I think that yeah you have chosen the NGO sector over politics but I did interview youth from across the political spectrum in the Salafi party the brotherhood as well as the secular parties and there's a lot going on within them because they all also talk about this generation gap within the parties irrespective of their political stripes where actually the old sort of sclerotic way of functioning within the parties means that there's no kind of internal democracy or accountability or even consensus-based decision-making and that's something that youth that I saw in Tunisia were really active in trying to change and there is I think it's not about the US pushing for things but maybe youth pushing for pushing themselves for example within I think the four areas of political activity that youth can which I've seen happening in Tunisia and Yemen and sometimes in Egypt too where you can engage with that building a presence when it comes to mediation advocacy institutions and communities so what do I mean by that with institutions for example youth in Tunisia have quotas in all of the political parties where they're actually part of the decision-making structure so they're part of the central political committees or have their in parallel structures which isn't really the case in Egypt and in Yemen they've got a quarter on the national dialogue as well when it comes to advocacy we have I mean April 6th there's a great pressure group obviously but in Tunisia there's Iqbis which is the pressure group within the Nihada party formed by youth to to it literally means to tighten the screw or to put pressure and to be able to link single issues so whether you're focusing on labor rights or political rights to link that to a broader political platform and then I was talking about community because a lot of there's a lot of community-based action that existed during the time of the revolution for example the local coordination committees in Egypt and I feel that youth could probably make better use of those and it'd be interesting to see if any of that translates into political capital when it comes to the elections and then finally mediation this is something that actually has happened once in Egypt where I think youth could make better use of the of the moral authority they had from the revolution to try and mediate between the opposition and the government in because the climate is so polarized right now and this did happen a couple of months ago where actually youth it's at the insistence of the youth that a meeting was finally arranged between the opposition and the president so to be able to use that kind of convening and mediating power a bit more I have a comment that I I was inside I was a member in constitutional assembly and I was like the president from president advisers but not officially they asked me to be officially but I said no I want to be from the National Front to advise the president until now I can't I couldn't do anything they said we are the majority and that's it and they ignored everything and the people and the position blamed me because I am I was in inside the regime sometimes so it's to be involved inside the regime and the rules of corruption the rules of all the regime is still working so it's it will be not useful we need to change the regime first then be involved after that or change the people's thinking yes okay so we're gonna open it for questions I'm gonna alternate sides we'll start here with the front there's a woman here yes can you wait for the mic and state your name and affiliation my name is justani Michelle I'm with the public international law and policy group my question is pretty much for everybody beyond the United States what is the most valuable role that you believe the international community can play in facilitating positive development in Egypt I think that we've kind of touched on this so I'm gonna take another question here for us and then have the speakers answer a few of them yeah thank you Laila I think it was Jawad or Ahmad I'm not too sure who spoke about the declining popularity of the Muslim Brotherhood that's something that's not in doubt I mean it's palpable if you read the airpress everybody knows that their popularity is in decline my question is about what's happening on the opposition side there's also that sense that the opposition is in political disarray that they haven't gotten their act together and that even if they were to participate in the upcoming elections they weren't be able to translate the into victories the popular anger that is that the Muslim Brotherhood is facing so that that's my first question my very quick second question if I may is about the issue of foreign support and foreign funding I understand that many of the youth movements in the opposition want to hold on to their ideals that prompt them to take to the street in the first place but there's also a degree of realpolitik that is required the Muslim Brotherhood has very strong foreign supporters including very well-to-do Arab governments in the Gulf how do you suggest that the opposition find these resources if they're unwilling to reach out and do what the Muslim Brotherhood in doing accepting foreign assistance thanks that links up well with the previous question so go ahead do you want to start okay position popularity yes in November 2012 when the prison decree about the general prosecutor and the new constitution it was big demonstrations have three hundred thousand or more in Cairo and a palace and many governance and it was priority of Muslim Brotherhood down and the position is up it was opportunity to the opposition to work on that and salvation front but they didn't use that they didn't organize and they refused to participate in the elections and many issues that make now the priority of the position is down and Muslim Brotherhood now is up sometimes because they used social services to increase the priority yes it's a big mistake with the opposition and if the opposition want to doing well and to get the majority and mobilizing people they won't they need to change a strategy of just demonstrating without real connecting with the people and without organization it's our mistake and we try to solve it before we talk about the opposition's popularity yeah I just want to put all the opposition in one one one bracket that's not fair so I mean I mean I would differentiate between Hamza we would have been and between Sabahi and Bradley and these are two different generations and I'm telling you there are huge issues going within the opposition and these are all leaders in the opposition front so I think one of the things that you might be seeing change now is that the opposition is trying to starting now to you know it's like any group that comes up in the beginning they come together then they discover the differences so I think the opposition now will be divided into people who actually you know know how to utilize and and and actually you know look forward to actually utilizing this this momentum and into doing something on the next and they will I think the opposition will go into parliament they will run for parliament because the other option is actually disastrous so I don't disagree I agree that's and are they reaching the people I think there are a group that are countering the I think I mean and yes I think there is a group that is actually you know working on the ground and this and they're fundraising and and they are actually talking to different families who are strong in different small towns and this is happening actually you know right now of course not as you know as close to the different machines the other groups you know do you want to comment on the Egyptian opposition and their strategies well I mean from I've got the feeling that the opposition's politics is really a kind of politics of of no and even though young people are very unhappy with how the brotherhood hasn't delivered on any of its promises in relation to unemployment or social economic justice that the opposition hasn't really been able to use that because it doesn't have any particular political platform and then also there's the issue of grassroots work and especially when it comes to there's a presence in Cairo and the Delta area but there's very little party activity in Upper Egypt so the questions that that raises again for the opposition is changing I mean if you look now it's like well it'll go into different that well you name and Mustafa Nagar and you find now they're realizing they're going to all you everyone now is all the young people are actually going around like all the Egypt and trying to to to reach out to the grassroots and the older generation cannot this is the issue they they don't have the the energy they don't have the space to actually do that so that's not all the older generation I'm just I'm not you know there are amazing people who are older but so I'm not reaching out by knocking on doors or reaching out through social media no knocking on doors and having actually going to universities and having talks and this is what actually is going to be of essence in the future okay and just quickly on the issue of how to counter money that's coming in from different external sources from the Gulf from others to support the the Muslim brotherhood the dominant majority party how do we can we counter that that money I we had this discussion before and unfortunately maybe I don't know we have very strict values on I'm talking to about myself about who's funding me and and I'm sticking to them I mean until now and you know I'm very cautious who pays I've not taken any foreign funding so you know we just have to I'm trying to hold to my values and not you know get someone buys me off your crowd sourcing you're getting money from the people so as most of our fun is the same with us where as a pre-sex movement you know when we talk with someone from any American NGO in the eye or IRI or freedom house when we talk before the revolution the old regime or a regime and now Muslim brotherhood use this issue that see a pre-sex movement take a money from a pro to destroy Egypt they travel to Serbia and this rumor so if we talk any foreign funding they will use that so we we we depending on our membership fee we can choose foreign funding that's a problem we have question here in the front yes my name is Ibrahim Hussain I'm an Egyptian American living here in Washington DC I have been following Egypt of course since the revolution and it really breaks my heart how divided Egypt is and how the the division is spiraling downward and getting the attention away from the real problem like economy education transportation health and the question is how could we you talked about alternative how would the alternative be if the opposition start asking to join the government of most of the Muslim brotherhood you have been asked to be a minister of youth why can't some of the leaders like I'm a musa become the foreign minister why don't we look at unity or government unity which is really critical to bend the two sides together and instead of trying to analyze how bad each side is let alone the opposition is so divided I think one of the demands of the opposition to participate in the elections is that neutral neutral people be appointed to cabinet positions what's the likelihood of that happening no it's not gonna happen and I mean I'm on the ground ask what they asked for it and and and and I'm on the ground and I can tell you stories of how and the government now positions okay so now where I'm staying they appointed the local mayor a Muslim brotherhood that was three months ago I mean that that happened in my neighborhood right and different and and and and there are my point is you know we we we just want the best for Egypt and we are really we have no personal interest or no actually it's not a matter of we're fighting the Muslim brotherhood just for the sake of more the we're just calling for the Muslim brotherhood they are certain in government now is that to try to involve everyone equally right so and and this is not have been happening that hasn't been happening right now and for you're asking about showing in the government I mean we are not hungry for positions I I will accept the position when I know there's a there's a group that I'm going to work for that's going to listen to me it's not just a political statement that someone is going to use on and say you know I look here Jawad is very nice we have him and I'm just sitting as a puppy and the second Ahmed went into the legis and the and the what do you call this tour the constitution the same thing so the fact is we are willing and want to build our country when we are sure right that we are being listened to and we are being have real influence if I'm telling you if the young Muslim brotherhood themselves have issues with the older ones and they're not being listened they're going to come and listen to me so you don't want to lose credibility before you can have an impact that also from two months it was a violence wave in Egypt every week you can find clashes and someone killed so me and friends like Safa Nagar and well when he began to using as hard to make agreement for non violence and to build on that to make principles to negotiate and find solution to compromise so when we after laser agreements we said was Muslim motherhood and the opposition to find solution we need the solution to stop violence in Egypt is to frustration leading from violence for violence so Muslim brotherhood what is the point of opposition constitution and alliance governments per se but in government and the general prosecutor and Muslim brotherhood refused to negotiate about anything of that they said if you want to change the constitution or the government or a prosecutor running in the election first and we will see if you take the majority and the rules of election is controlled by Muslim brotherhood that is a problem okay we have a question over here thank you Faribor's Fatemi ox ox or char group thank you for your presentation but what I don't seem to hear is you have a population that's 60% under the age of 30 and probably 90% unemployed are there any programs or any advocacy for programs or discussions going on of what to do about the unemployment with the government or opposition to take to the people to say these are our programs to get the country moving forward thank you so I mean yeah I mean I mean and this dialogue is something that we don't disagree upon with the government and we we you know we had something called Egypt vision 2020 which we invited different groups and putting the vision for Egypt and working on economic policies there's an economic policy that actually has been worked on for the past two years has been presented to the government that was just a month ago but to be honest I mean this is so hard to achieve when there isn't political stability you know I mean all this is very nice and but the issue now people and investors and an economic reform goes along with political stability and people saying where Egypt is going so when now you don't even know when is the parliamentary elections is going to happen so you don't know what are the laws and regulations are are going to be in place what are who are the political powers the government is not stable so you know and and I think the most brotherhood is realizing this more and more that they cannot do it on their own and there has to be political stability so have to be economic stability and if there's not economic stability the people will not be happy and they will not continue in power because economy is the number one thing that is going to keep people voting for the majority or the government. Do you want to add anything on this issue of politics versus economics which comes first? I agree with those Gawad said that projects or programs we have ideas at the young movement or NGOs we have many programs and many projects but we have many obstacles that there is no funding to these projects there is no supporting from the government or any international institutions and sometimes the political issues prevent any any issue any efforts to development that's a problem. Can I just say that youth are more focused on political issues than the economic ones but I also just wanted to maybe put that within the context of two other revolutions and actually Hannah Arendt's writing on the American and the French Revolution and her sort of preference for the American Revolution because of its initial focus on building legitimate and enduring institutions that focus on freedoms as opposed to the French institution which she felt kind of got to embroiled in what she called the social question and a focus on socioeconomic issues which kind of then muddied the waters when they came to political rights so I just wanted to bring in some sort of sense of what happens in transitions I think this is a big issue everywhere after all revolutions you know do you focus on the political or the social issue and it's always a struggle. Not to be like general I will give you specifics so for example we had a program for project for entrepreneurship centers right so entrepreneurship centers to be established around the country and actually we got funding for it and we got funding it's been a year and a half and the government will not release my money so I mean they're not just only listening they are not actually cooperating and making it so hard for me to like I don't want anything from them I didn't ask them for funding I didn't ask them I'm just asking you know just let me work and that's been hard so I mean there is a there is a issue with the system itself. Is it is a bureaucratic inertia and breakdown or is it actual political challenge? So there are three things actually there are bureaucratic pure bureaucratic I mean deep state that is involved in Egypt number two there are you know you don't have the proper political hat you know and I have this discussion all the time so the medical center he wanted to open a change yeah put some sign here and there you know make it easy for you so that's the new thing that I you know that's that's sometimes corruption and there is no willing to do that and also now if any good projects or services it's a lead it's our controlled by Muslim Brotherhood Party the FJ Party the new system of social funding social aid social support yes it's controlled by Muslim Brotherhood only not another party so it's a corruption bureaucracy and also the Muslim Brotherhood won't any good issues for them only so they're serving their own constituency okay we do you have a question in the back thank you my name is Tophik Mahboudi I'm PhD candidate at American University so my question is that before the Constitution referendum the opposition first they campaigned to boycott the referendum but then few days before the referendum they actually come campaigned that they will vote no and by this they were sending mixed message to the mass and so the question is what the opposition what what what have you as the opposition done to build consensus within the opposition as as as Gawad says the opposition is not one category and there are different groups within the opposition so what have you done to build consensus to to increase cohesion within the opposition to to be able to increase your own votes and at the same time as as the results of the referendum shows Cairo voted no for the Constitution and it shows that actually Cairo is not all Egypt and the opposition mainly focus was on Egypt so what have you done what do you have to build consensus yes and do you have any plans to work on the local levels and and other governors thank you so I yeah I that's why I told you the opposition is going to elections because they say no no and then they go in at the end so the idea is as I told you we're doing the youth list for parliament inshallah that's what we're working on getting the youth that's our criteria now and not only in Cairo and going around like in different governments so this is the action this is what you know this is the time to question that's what we're doing actually I mean very concretely you know getting a youth list under 40 to run for elections people are qualified and getting proper funding for it and that's it is there consensus within the opposition and if not where is it do they differ on strategy versus substance position now is not one stream or not a stream it's a it's a from old political parties like a love the party like another old political parties and also the new political parties like the store party or the reshabi was by or subbahi this is a vision front and also the the the persons and leader person in Ndb before the revolution now they are in a position that's the problem because maybe confined political parties can accept working with Ndb or the persons from former regime and revolutionary movements didn't accept that so that is sometimes make a problem inside the position is revolution and old parties and some some persons from old regime so it's it's not homogeneous sometimes and that's the reason need for by cutting or vote for no and there is no time it was this decision by cutting then vote for no within 10 days so there is no effective in the street no one by cuts and no one vote for no consensus building on the opposition no do you want to add anything no I don't think that's been much consensus building is there more consensus in the Tunisia in the opposition well there is now because there's a new party which has caused a lot of controversy because it actually includes members of the old regime and the consensus lies around the fact that they're all anti and had that which goes back to my old point about you know that being there one political platform is is the anti Islamist one beyond that not really but I have to say there's a difference in the generations between the youth of these parties who are more focused on doing grassroots work and building some sort of base that way we have a question here okay thank you I'm Brian Greenberg with interaction there's there seems to be a kind of predicament raised by political ideology and critical political discourse in Egypt which seems to put you at a disadvantage in moving forward and that if you will is based on a kind of double standard where external interests external financial resources are seen to be anathema for Egypt if for example they're seen to come from the United States so that the if you will the traditional reflex of understanding that events in Egypt are largely shaped by outside forces like the United States is a problem so that very quickly get to my question so that for example you are on you have to be very careful about the sources of funding that you accept to support your work on the other hand and here's the double standard my question for you is how do you address this double standard in a nationalist effectively a nationalist revolution how is it that the Muslim brotherhood and its Salafi supporters in the Gulf are essentially not criticized in the same way for the external intervention okay thank you sir do you understand the question very complicated question but it's a very hard question to answer the question is really you know the Muslim brotherhood the Salafis are gaining money from outside so why can't you take money from from the US or for other organizations so that's what I'm saying they are but they have they are little bit you know what I mean actually they are they are getting critiqued for it but they you know it's a war getting on both sides and I I don't see a I don't see an answer actually to how to do it or how to solve it and yeah from on my from my front it's hard to just say yeah I'm going to take money from outside from whoever and and just use that there's too much of a risk to be on is there mounting critique against Islamists who are taking money from the Gulf yeah we are in the media yes they have about especially Qatar you know coming in because I mean I mean also you want to be honest some of the foreign funding I'm sure it's a very stupid in funding you know they'll be like they want to put their logo you know and say we have done so and so I mean other parties are being funded like you know there's investments coming in you know nobody's going to have a problem with investments and doing projects and stuff like that so sometimes I doubt the sincerity of the people who actually want to fund you know they just want to do a political point against you so you're saying the Gulf money is coming in in a quiet way whereas the US for instance will want to brand their assistance okay let's imagine if we accept the the foreign funding if we accept that and can can accept the criticism from from the Islamist and the security but I think US don't want to invest in NGOs or and don't want to invest in Egypt anymore I feel that there is no real work and for my perspective that I can't feel that there is no real work in Egypt to to support democracy or to support the freedom maybe before the revolution it was better than now okay over here gentlemen in the blue tie yes I'm Thomas Gorgizian with the Egyptian daily newspaper how do you see Ahmadinejawad the role of the media social media and the traditional media in promoting and I will put a slash hindering the change in Egypt because I can see now that whether opposition or rulers Juan and brothers are doing the same thing in as if it's the media is the replacement of political discourse there is no parliament but there is no there is social media there are tweets they're all this kind of going on which is because if it's this is the change and not the real parliament and real change in the world okay let's take one more question before we have the panelists answer we have one here my name I mean Mahmood I was the American Egyptian strategic alliance and my question to Ahmed in particular that's as a youth organization and play a great role in a revolution how you can still follow a failure opposition in particular the old leadership who had the role and the gun they had very honorable role but but the role is gone and as Jawad mentioned some of the young people Mustafa Nagar, Hamzawi and others really making a different they go on the street they go to different mohaffasat different district and they rally the people you should really announce you going to the election because that's the only way to democracy we build the institution you should announce it from now and work with the opposition to select the district and put people together yes but you should announce from today you are going to the election and you have people running can you turn that into a question yeah yeah that's I'm asking Ahmed if you will agree to do that okay so is tweeting enough and are you going to go to elections okay the first question about social media before the revolution we were the kings of social media before the revolution we are the first crew maybe in the world used Facebook and Twitter in mobilizing people from 2008 and 2007 and maybe before that also now any political party anyone the military using social media against us the security using social media against us Muslim Brotherhood have army to using social media against anyone so now social media is the weapon anyone can use against anyone so it's a war on social media but if we look about what happened in referendum in 2011 if you join Twitter on Facebook and see what happened you will expect that all Egyptian will vote for no because all Egyptian on Twitter and Facebook said vote for no but what happened that 70% vote for yes because the work in social media and in the internet is different to work in the street because the majority of Egyptian having to computer having TV sometimes in the poor poverty neighborhoods so we need to okay now we can work in social media but we need to improve our ability to work in the street in upper Egypt in Sinai in the poverty neighborhoods like the Jawad e-forson in the poverty areas we need to improve that and to build the real grassroots about all the old leaders and young leaders yes I accept to to work with young leaders like Hamzawi like many many persons to mobilizing people and to go through the the upper Egypt and the far governance to working with them and the support the idea of persecuting and again is the old same ideas that made us in this position and support this idea to what yeah just the first one I think you know we can't just keep blaming the Muslim Brotherhood and keep bashing them and I don't think that's that's fair enough that's the easy way out but I think the the other position there is no real concrete solution or clear clear alternative that actually people can look up to and and hold on to and actually support so I think you know both sides have not been successful to be honest and you know I think now there's the chance for a third group that actually can come in and have concrete solutions concrete things that people can actually hold on to and and and support and the social media will do an effect we have 30 million internet users so you know one of the things that if you plan for now for the presidential elections and work from now creating a platform and you know and using that and and utilizing the use you can do a difference but this is limited to what do you actually offer you have to work on what a real solution that people can actually hold on to you know do you want to comment a little bit on this perspective of social media and how it was an agent of change and now well liberated to the point of being diffuse it it was a tool for organizing in the early days or pre-revolution but afterwards it's become more of a war zone I mean every single political party has a thousand I mean the thousands of Facebook pages and as one young journalist said to me in Tunisia that this I mean the polarization that you see in society has been taken to the Facebook pages and that she often has to sort of look outdoors just to see there isn't a civil war going on just because there's so many battles taking place on Facebook basically about identity politics and but I think that there is this realization actually both Ahmad and the word and we're talking about it that you I mean that one can't just organize on social media and that one has to go out and do grassroots work and I have been seeing that shift so maybe it's no longer the same tool for mobilization but it's certainly an important tool for debate yes I mean it's a forum for a forum for debate and that's and it's increasing access to social media could be important and getting ideas out and and encouraging more participation in public debate but it's not the it's not the end of the game so we'll take just one more question before closing here I'm Deborah Alexander and I've just concluded my career at Department of State and my question really is asking you to step back a little bit you know political reform change revolution certainly Egypt isn't the only country in the last 20 years that has undergone this and I'm wondering if other youth and civil society organizations how they supported you or have you learned from them have you established any working relationships with organizations in other countries that have undergone a similar kind of change thank you so you're working in other countries so so actually we are establishing for example a branch to our one of the reasons I'm here is we're establishing a branch for our NGO in in the States so and actually I am meeting different organizations from around the world and to learn from the experience whether on the political level or on the NGO civil society level and how they structure and how they manage the governance within the organizations and all that stuff and the bylaws and so and and this is this is a great opportunity for me to be here is that meeting different people and different organizations and we are doing that and and we have I mean luckily we have the proper the platform or the brand that actually gives us makes people interested to be part or to join in with us and I think I agree it's very important and we we're doing that as a pre-sex movement we before the revolution we cooperated with outdoor movement in Serbia and we learned more from the strategy that happened in Serbia before the revolution and also Saudi movement in Poland also it's how to use strikes to build a movement that was our our our starting in a pre-sex strike so we we we follow many information about what happened in Eastern Europe especially Poland and Serbia and what happened after the revolution now we studied also what happened after the revolution with Surabaki for example when the nationalistic the authority and then after nine years the liberal take the authority by election so it's a it's very important experience in Surabaki that route experience and information about what happens about real connection now we have a connection with for example for Occupy movements in in US we have a good relation with is uncut in UK in the opposition movement in Spain and Greece and Italy and in Sudan in Morocco in Syria before the civil war so we try to we got information from the movements make revision before and we try to give information to a new groups in many countries and we have a pre-sex branches in Europe and in US also try to to not publicizing but to organize the people here in Europe and outside Egypt too for voting for election for referendum so it's very important that the young groups in all the countries help each other to supporting real democracy. Okay given Egypt's very messy transition can you tell us what you think the mistake was in your strategy from from January 2011 when you went to the streets to today was there one one strategic mistake that we can look at. Yes our strategic mistake that we trust the military after the revolution and we meet them two days before after Mubarak it was a big mistake that we said we will leave Tahrir Square and now we need to take a rest and we will negotiate with the military it was a big mistake because they they ploughed they make checks and they lying too much and they put us in this track from the beginning this is the first mistake the second mistake from my perspective that we as youth movements not able sex only that we didn't we said we are not the owner of the revolution and it's the people revolution so we didn't reform a leadership for this revolution and that is made the the staff cooperated with Muslim brotherhood against us the third mistake I don't know if it's that's a mistake or not now all the people blaming us because we supported Morsi I don't know it's a mistake or not but we we didn't found any solution any any choice so we supported Morsi and there's a result now okay so what I agree I my main issues that we did not organize together as a group and and get united and have a proper representation that's number one number two we actually you know we we had the chance to have for example a TV channel you know and a media outlet to speak for ourselves and we didn't and we should have taken that position because what happened is that people you know we had people representing the revolution and the media choosing who represents the revolution and they would bring the wrong people and speak in a way that will make people hate us right and and someone will be shouting and swearing and so on so forth so we used to have a positive you know image of this young educated you know people loving the country to people who are you know misbehaved who you know just swear and shout and so on so I think I mean adding to Ahmad this these are the two things that I think very important just actually mirroring what they say that I think that there's been a fragmentation in terms of both objectives I mean focusing on single issues and also with a lack of leadership and structure yeah without wanting to end on a negative note I I have to commend Ahmad Joad for for your efforts and one thing that really strikes me is the maturity with which you're speaking about the current situation in Egypt and you're you're very much looking long-term and I I think that that's that's a positive and you're working at multiple levels at the grassroots level and at the higher political level so so I think that we should commend you for for your efforts and learning from the mistakes we hope that lessons will be learned and progress will be made nor thank you very much for joining us and I think you gave us good food for thought reflecting on a broader context so thanks everyone for coming out