 Our next caller is Jenna from Iowa. Hey, Jenna, how can we help you? Yes. First of all, I'm a big fan. I'm a personal trainer here at the University of Iowa. I've got a lot of clients, and so I take all of your guys' advice. My question is very personal, though. I am a 38-year-old mother of two, and I love competing in strongman and powerlifting competitions. I competed in my first strongman competition this year. And about two months ago, my husband and I started a plant-based diet. So I don't call it vegan because it's actually more restrictive than vegan. We basically eat plant-based. We try to stay away from processed foods, which is pretty similar to what you guys recommend on your podcast. And we've really been enjoying it. It's been saving our family money and my digestion and sleep have improved. My energy levels are amazing. And it's cleared up my skin, which is pretty awesome. But there's been one downside to eating plant-based as opposed to when I was eating meat and dairy and all the fun stuff. And that's my powerlifting. Weights and my strongman lifting weights have all decreased about five to 15 pounds, which for me is the competitor and someone who really enjoys getting strong has been super frustrating. So I didn't know if you guys had advice on why all the other things in my life are improving, but my strength is not. So any advice you can give would be very helpful. I want to ask a couple of questions before Sal jumps in and talks for 15 minutes. Do you currently supplement with creatine by chance? So I supplement with creatine about five milligrams, I think, per day. And I also try to take a protein powder and eat a lot of beans, but I know you guys have talked about being vegan in the past. It's very hard to eat that many beans. And they're pretty bland, to be honest. So yeah, I try to watch my protein. That was my next question was, how do you track your protein intake consistently? Because if you're already supplementing creatine, that would be the first thing. The second thing I would ask is, how consistent are you with hitting 100 grams plus of protein every day? So I'm not consistent hitting that high. And I've read a lot on vegan plant-based diets. They actually recommend a lot less protein per body weight. So I've been anywhere from, 50 to 60 grams of protein per day. And that's been pretty hard to achieve. Yeah, it's too low. That's why you're feeling it. Yeah, if everything was controlled, right? So if your calories were the same as before, your proteins, fats and carbs were the same as before. Adam mentioned creatine. Creatine benefits vegans quite a bit because they don't get any from their plant-based sources. So if you're doing that, you're not having any nutrient deficiencies. And everything else is controlled. And then you come and say, hey, I'm weaker, then we're gonna have to look a little deeper. But it's probably due to the fact that your calories and or your protein or other macronutrients aren't matching what they were before. Now, here's what I would do. I would try to get, and I know what they recommend with the plant-based, the plant-based advices to eat less protein. And here's why they say that. The reason why they say that is because it's hard to get protein from plant-based sources. There really is no evidence or value of eating low protein, except for maybe in some exceptions. There may be some exceptions to that particular rule. But otherwise, a high protein diet, not only is it safe, it's healthy, and for performance, it's superior. So a couple of things you could do, either try to get more protein from your food. But if that's difficult, which it sounds like it is, I would supplement with plant-based protein powders to make up for it. And then here's the other thing I want you to keep in mind. I'm glad you said that your digestion and sleep and skin are better, because that is showing that there may be some benefits. Sometimes the benefits are not because you're not eating meat, but rather because you're not eating processed foods or other foods that... Or you're incorporating a lot more vegetables than you're used to eating in your diet, which has a great effect in terms of being anti-inflammatory. So there's some benefits that you're realizing from that, but also, too, was it a conscious decision to stop eating meat? Like, what was that decision process going into this? My husband read a book called How Not to Die, which was a really popular book published a couple years ago, showing the links between a plant-based diet and increased lifespan. And I think we did it for our kids. But I got really discouraged because it seemed like it was almost impossible to be a strongman, athlete, or a successful powerlifter and be vegan. And so it's just... It's been harder path than I realized. And this is the problem I have with any diet. This is... If you guys aren't doing it for any other reason than that, first of all, it's not hard to write a book, cherry-pick studies, and make something sound like it's better than something else. And if you guys are not opposed to adding some fish or chicken or turkey into the diet every once in a while to increase your protein intake, there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I just recently switched over to eating, I should say, a carnivore-esque diet. And the reason why I said esque and I quickly announced it and talked about on the podcast that I am not following somebody's protocol in a book that I have to do these certain things. My idea is I'm using it like an elimination diet. I'm getting rid of a lot of the other stuff. And then I'm just gonna slowly add stuff into back into my diet and pay attention to how I feel. Like Sal and Justin both alluded to, you obviously have seen positive benefits for you to switch over that. Now, it doesn't mean that meat was causing all those issues before. It just probably means that you're getting either lots of benefits from eating all the vegetables that you were eating, or you've eliminated a single thing or two that was the offender. And if you're okay and open to it, I would start to reintroduce one source of protein that maybe comes from meat into your diet and just see how you feel. Like maybe just start with fish, you know, because that's gonna be probably one of the easiest ones or chicken. And see how you guys feel if it helps boost your protein intake, you see strength go up and you don't see any side effects from it. I would include that and still run your, you know, predominantly plant-based diet, but then you have these little bits of protein that you're meat that you're using for, that would be what I would do. Janet, pay attention to libido. Pay attention to, you said your strength is going down. So look at libido. That's an important thing. Look at your menstrual cycle or any other symptoms of hormone changes. And this is for your husband as well, okay? Because if you start to see those change in ways that don't seem healthy, then what you're doing isn't entirely healthy. I mean, I'm actually gonna give you different advice than Adam. I'd say throw in some grass-fed beef or some eggs, get some cholesterol, get some of those saturated fats in there. They actually have benefits when it comes to strength and muscle. And getting strong is not unhealthy. Getting strong is healthy. And of course you can do it in unhealthy ways. Lots of anabolic steroids, lots of, you know, body fat on your body to improve, you know, to increase leverage and that kind of stuff. But if you're otherwise healthy, lean, you're natural, you're not using drugs or whatever, and you're getting strong, or if you get weaker, getting weaker is usually not a sign of overall better health, right? So in fact, I'll tell you this much right now, okay? I know you guys read that book. One of the greatest predictors of all cause mortality is weakness. It's actually better. It's better than whether or not someone's plant-based diet or not. And also consider this, when they do those studies or write these books, they're comparing a whole natural food plant-based diet to the typical American diet that includes meat. So, you know, oh, these people eat meat and they're unhealthy. Well, it's not necessarily the meat. It's the buns that come with the burgers and fries and everything else. And all these excess calories. So, and I'll tell you what, you know, if you control your macros and calories, I would challenge you to include some meat with and control calories and macros and make sure it's whole and natural. And I would bet that you probably would feel better. Now, not everybody. There's going to be exceptions to this rule. But I would bet you're better. So, the fact that you're losing strength tells me that there's something that's lacking. We're guessing that it's protein and calories. It's almost obvious it's protein. I mean, if she's barely hitting 50 or 60, I mean, this is a classic example of one of the easiest things that I would help clients. It was very common for me to get a female client that was under-consuming protein on a regular basis and just simply getting her protein up to 90 plus a day, instantly she would feel the response of the gym. Yeah, try this. Have some grass-fed beef once, right? Give yourself a serving of grass-fed beef and then see how you feel the day after. And if you feel better the day after, there's a good sign that's probably something that you need. And usually that's what happens. Somebody will throw in, I've had clients like you and I'll have them eat. Let's eat a grass-fed patty or steak tonight. And then let's see how you feel tomorrow. And it's like, oh my God, I feel stronger already. And I'm like, okay, this is something that we might need to include into your diet. Yeah, something I should also add is I'm breastfeeding. So I'm nursing a nine-month-old. And so I kind of feel sometimes too that he takes a lot out of me. So I wonder if the whole nursing, wild powerlifting training and everything is also contributing to the energy levels. Yeah, actually, that's a good point. But also why you would need more protein, more calories too. Yeah, you noticed the strength losses when you started breastfeeding or were you already breastfeeding when you went plant-based? I was already breastfeeding when I went plant-based, but as soon as I went plant-based, the strength went down. Okay, so it's probably due to the diet then, I would say. It's probably not due to the breastfeeding. And by the way, if there's a nutrient that you're lacking because you've eliminated one of the most nutrient-dense foods on the planet, which is, and this is a fact, okay, if you could only pick one food and survive, now this is not ideal, but if you only had to pick one food and survive off of it, it would be meat. There's no single plant that can do that. Because meat is very nutrient-dense. So if you're lacking a nutrient, even before you get to nutrient deficiency where there's big outward signs, if you're lacking a nutrient and it's not optimal, it could be something that you pass on even through your breast milk. So pay attention to that. I would throw in a little bit of meat, test it out. Don't throw five different types of meat at yourself at once. I would leave dairy last because dairy tends to be the one that people have the highest intolerance to. So throw in something. It could be anything. Personally, I would choose either eggs or grass-fed beef. See how you feel if you feel great from it. Awesome. And then start including those types of things to make sure you hit those protein requirements or those protein numbers that tend to be optimal for strength. Awesome. Thanks to you guys. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of the show. I listen to you guys all the time. And thanks to Adam, I'm here in Iowa outside walking my dog barefoot. Yeah. That's my girl. That's my girl. Awesome. Thanks for calling in. Yeah. This is why I fucking hate the diet book fucking world. And they do such a good job. It's so convincing. It is. I mean, read Paul's Carnivore book. Read Rob's Paleo. But I mean, you can cherry-pick studies to put them all together to make the case that this way of eating is the most ideal. But the reality is there's such an individual variance to every single person. And if you're not doing it for moral reasons, right? Which I know you asked. One of you just asked that right away. And she said no. They did it because of this book. For health. Yeah, for health. And then you notice strength go down. Well, it's not a big indicator of health. Yeah. And this is how your strength. I mean, we didn't ask her weight. I'm assuming she weighs more than 100 pounds. And so her eating 50 grams or less of protein, right? I mean, right away, I guarantee you she bumps that to 90 grams plus. Oh, she'll feel that. She'll feel that. She'll feel it in the gym, right? Yeah. And that's the problem is people switch to a diet and they don't control all the factors. And they're like, oh my gosh, I feel better. And it's like, you're eating less. You're overeating before. Or you're not eating processed food. Yeah. That's probably what the issue was. Yeah. You got to tease all that out. Yeah. And you got to be careful. I mean, nutrient deficiencies are way higher in vegans than the armed people who eat an omnivore diet. By the way, I'm comparing healthy to healthy. So I'm not comparing standard American crappy diet to plant-based. Healthy to healthy. More variety versus less variety. You're going to have more nutrient deficiencies. It's a fact. It's proven. This is not even a debate. So, and I've worked with so many, I've had so many female clients like this. I don't know why I feel this way. I eat plant-based. We'll throw in a little red meat. Their hair stops falling out. Or their menstrual cycle comes back. And it's like, okay, like you were not healthy. Yeah. And it's not to say there's not outliers who benefit from that. But also too, like it's so difficult to get all those nutrients just with that specific diet itself. Yeah. No, you could not go plant-based if it weren't for modern supermarkets. That's it. You would die. There's no such thing as plant-based hunter-gatherers. I love though that she's so consistent. She's a trainer so she knows what she's doing so she could see this, right? If you're somebody who doesn't... Something is off. Right? If you don't train consistently, you miss this. You miss the signal that, hey, maybe this isn't perfect for me. Because then they see all these other benefits. The skin's clearing up. They're better asleep. But then... Yeah, they're some good, right? Yeah. These other big factors. And that's why too, I wouldn't completely abandon the diet. I wouldn't say, oh, stop. That could still be the main thing. But then just throw in... It could even be temporary. You know, you go through this and then you come back to... Or just slowly introduce... Protein diet. Like, you know, we are all... I mean, I don't care what you pick. I mean, pick eggs. Pick grass-fed beef. Pick fish. Pick one. And introduce it. Yeah. Just to increase the protein intake and whatever nutrients that you could get from that that you might not have been getting from plants. See how you feel. And then either, okay, just make that the one meat that you introduce and keep in there or start to slowly introduce the other. And see how you feel too.