 And welcome back, we are so glad you're here. It's another episode of the nonprofit show. And today we're talking about, can't we just talk it out ourselves? And really how we can use a facilitator. So Abby Wilke-Macky is with us today. Abby is the founder and facilitator with Mindflower Studio. She's got some really great insight to share with us. But before we pass the mic to Abby, we want to remind all of our viewers who we are, if we have not had the esteem pleasure of meeting you yet. Julia Patrick of course is here. Julia is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, non-profit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. And we are so very honored. And every single day I see these logos and we say the sponsors allowed. And I'm just filled with gratitude. So shout out of immense gratitude to these partners. Thank you to Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, non-profit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, 180 management group, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, JMT consulting, non-profit nerd, as well as non-profit tech talk. These companies, most of them have been with us on this nearly four year journey. We are so very grateful because collectively they have helped us to produce a plethora of episodes which you can find on these three platforms. So go ahead and pull out your smartphone. You can scan that QR code right now, download the app. You can also find us on streaming broadcast and podcast platforms. So I like to remind you, wherever you binge watch, binge listen, any of your entertainment, you can add us to that queue. So Abby, we are so excited to have you with us today. As you and I connected offline a couple of years ago, during the pandemic, someone had connected us and I think it slipped through the cracks for us to connect and then lo and behold, someone else reconnected us. And I was like, serendipitous. This is, it's time, the timing is better, right? So thrilled to have you. Again, for our viewers and listeners, we have with us today, Abby Wilke-Macky. She serves as founder and facilitator at Mind Flower Studio. Welcome to the show, Abby. Thank you so much, Jared, and thank you, Julia. I just wanna echo what Jared already said. The serendipity of our connection has just been awesome and it feels like our journeys have been going in parallel with one another, but we hadn't quite crossed over yet. So I'm excited that we're able to do this together and be here with you all today. Yeah. It's great. You know, it's, I love your, the name of your business because I think, you know, we've been talking so much for some of us, like the first time really in the nonprofit sector about mindfulness, mindset, and using the power of the mind navigating us throughout the nonprofit sector. And facilitation is one of those things. And so this is gonna be a really great conversation to, you know, hear your perspective and learn more about that because it's not just about getting back to business. It's about how we do business. And so let's get on and get in because I wanna start with how neutral is that external facilitator. And, you know, I hear a lot of times from organizations they'll say, yeah, but they don't know us. They're from the outside. How can they, how can they help us? They don't know us. So talk to us about this whole ecosystem and mindset, if you will. Absolutely. If I may even back up just to step two, let's talk about what is a facilitator and what is that, what does that role even look like? And so at Mindflower, I am a facilitator. I'm actually what's called a graphic facilitator, which means I use illustrations and visuals to help people understand content, have complex conversations and use these visuals and these graphics to tell a story or to work through or solve a problem. So essentially a facilitator is someone that comes in and guides the process of whatever you're trying to solve. Oftentimes it's strategy, it's mission and vision work, it's team connection, it's board retreats, it's any of those things where people need to come together to collaborate, to solve problems, to innovate together. And so you might bring in an external facilitator to literally guide the process. Something I think is kind of fun is when you actually break down the roots of the word facilitator, there's that word facile in it. And so some of you may speak multiple languages, there are Italian roots in it, Spanish roots, but in Spanish, facile is easy. So technically speaking, a facilitator is meant to ease a process to make it easier for you to facilitate, for you to collaborate, for you to solve problems. So they come in and serve as the process guide and help push the creative thinking. So Julia, a good question though is how neutral is an external facilitator? Let's dive into that a little bit. Yeah, because I think, is it a blessing or a curse that you don't know the organization? I would say it's a blessing because it is, I would definitely say it's a blessing, let's recognize the bias in that statement. So as a really quick sidebar to this, I train other people within an organization to be innovative thinkers and to facilitate strategic processes within their own organization. And that is one of the most tricky parts of the entire six day training that I do with them is for them to work on being an internal team member and facilitating because it is way trickier to do so when you're internal. So when you bring in an external facilitator, I listen differently, I have no vested, I have vested interest in the success of the group, but I'm not attached to any idea. I'm not looking at the group and knowing all of the things that go on underneath the surface, the dynamics that maybe exist. We're really, we're starting a little bit more fresh with a little bit more of a clean slate when you come in from the outside because I don't have an idea that I want to see go all the way through the session, like someone who might be internal might come in with that. So there's less baggage, I would say, is maybe one way to put it. What do you think? I really appreciate your description on all of this, Abby, and I echo all of it, right? Even the bias part where it's like, I too think it's a blessing. I've spent the majority of my career with human services, but I've had the privilege and honor to work with other sectors. And I get to be that third party that says, I don't understand that acronym. I don't understand this, you know, why this is important because that message when you're marketing to a new audience is really important. So I find often, and I'm curious if you do too, Abby, we tend to talk the same lexicon and vernacular, like everything assuming everyone else also has that same dictionary right in the palm of their hand. And that's not the case, I find. Absolutely, I think as the external facilitator, you come in and you ask all of those questions that other people might not be as confident to ask because they might feel like they were already supposed to know that, whereas as a facilitator, you can say, well, how does that program work? And you might have a board member sitting in the room saying, oh, thank God someone's asking this question. I don't really know how it works either. And then it becomes a space to learn from one another. And you just, you can poke at things differently. You can ask questions that other people might assume, people know the answer to. And I think honestly, one of the biggest things is you can start to recognize orthodoxies that exist in a group. And I think this concept of orthodoxies of, this is just how we do things. This is the way we've always done it. An external facilitator is going to see that and be able to poke at it. It's like when you go into a friend's house and let's use the very controversial topic of which way your toilet paper faces? Is it over or is it under? And you go into someone else's house and maybe they do it differently and you say, why do you put it under or why do you put it over? I'm not showing my bias or my preference in this comment. But you see that and you ask them, why do you do it that way? And oftentimes people say, oh, I don't know. That's just kind of how we've always done it. And so in the business context and in the nonprofit context, when you have an external facilitator, you do have someone to ask you probing questions and get at some of these orthodoxies and help you explore new spaces and solve problems differently. I think that's really important, especially as we consider the variety of personalities, right? And when we think of a board, I think on average, like maybe seven, we've heard really seven upwards of 20. I even heard an organization had 40 plus board members. That's a lot of personality. So talk to us how an external facilitator can really bring in and bring together these various diverse personalities because these are stakeholders of the organization, but they all might have a little different perspective. Talk to us about this, Abby. Definitely, so because you started throwing out numbers of group sizes, I've had a board with 65 board members because it was multiple different counties coming together into one cohesive board, which was amazing. But you do have a lot of different perspectives and a lot of different personalities in the mix. I also, in this conversation, want to include having staff members a part of this conversation as well. So when you can bring in board and staff, anytime you're doing strategic conversations or strategic planning or ideation sessions, you can bring even more diverse personalities, knowledge, perspectives, all of those different things that people bring in. But when you have a facilitator come in, essentially what you're doing is you are democratizing the conversation because you're giving everyone the space to participate. And it's not saying, let's say we have 100 people in the room. It's not that every single person is going to have ample time holding that microphone and everyone's going to have 10 minutes with the microphone, but it is that you are very intentionally developing activities and sequencing activities to help everyone come together to share their opinions. You work individually at some parts of a session or a workshop that's being facilitated. You might work in a pair. You might work in a small group. You might share out what you learned in your small group with the large group. So again, you continue to grow with these conversations all with the point of getting more perspectives in the mix. So when you have different personalities that will prefer small group activities, you have some personalities that will really love having that large group conversation and grabbing that mic and saying, here's what we learned. Here's our idea or here's something that we all need to talk about. But when you have a facilitator, again, back to that easing the process, you have someone that's sequencing and designing activities to bring out every single person's opinion, whether it's on a sticky note, whether it's in a small group conversation, whether it's in a large group conversation or what have you. You know, go ahead. I'm curious, Julia, for you to ask about the power dynamic, because that was interesting to me in the green room chatter. Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that I witnessed the most is the people that have more. And when I created this slide, I put in an image of money, which might seem like a little odd. But to me, you know, throughout the trajectory of my leadership in boards and nonprofits is that I see the person that has more of a financial influence getting more speaking time. And I think sometimes that's really also conversations are kind of navigated towards what we think they want to hear or what they said they want to hear. And so I think that's something that a facilitator is not always going to know what that background information is. They won't have seen those reports of who's giving what and how they're giving. Or if they're in, you know, if there are states involved in the future and they're a wealthy patron, all of that. But the other thing too that I really appreciate is that you talked about including staff. And it makes me crazy when I'm involved in strategic sessions or discussions and there is not staff present. Because otherwise you have a bunch of people that they might be well-intentioned, but they don't have the nitty-gritty background that the staff has. And so, you know, to me that you said that, that's just like, man, we've got to be thinking that way. We have to be including that mind trust. So, yeah. Absolutely. And if I can add to the, there's an acronym that's oftentimes used when talking about the people with more power in the room. And it's called the HIPPO or the HPPO, which is the highest paid person's opinion, which can oftentimes be the loudest opinion or the person that holds the microphone the most, which is the point of having a facilitator is to help everyone agree to collaborate together and to share the mic. And when you see it shifting and that everyone's not participating equally in a conversation, that you can say, hey, remember, we're here to hear everyone's opinion. And it's not just about the person who is the CEO or the executive director, because you're bringing all of these minds and these brains together to have that unique makeup and that unique thinking that a group can bring. So, that's something as a facilitator that you're always watching for, is watch out for the HIPPO. And I just, I think that's such a cute way to remember to be cognizant of that. And it's real. Like that, yeah. I think of the HIPPO, and I don't know the other acronym, but it's the person that doesn't ever speak. And the first time that we're in break, I make sure to go up to the person and make sure that they're okay if they have anything that I can help their voice to be heard. You know, like really encouraging them to use their voice in whichever way that they're comfortable. Which takes me to, we're not always in person these days having these conversations. So we're often doing a hybrid of the digital meeting like we are today, versus that IRL in real life facilitation. How are you seeing this blend or the trend, if you will, of the digital versus IRL right now? Yeah, so I was on a hike last week with some people and I now have hiking meetings because that's what I like to do on Wednesday afternoons is have hiking meetings. And we talked about this exact question of, are you having, do you have more in-person clients or more digital clients when you're facilitating sessions? And the two people that I was hiking with both said, oh, so many digital, so many digital meetings, a lot of our workshops and planning and design sessions are digital, but I actually had the opposite opinion. So the jury's still out on this one because almost all of my big workshops, big strategic creative sessions, workshops like that are taking place in person. Now, I was doing a ton of digital work and all of my meetings and the planning and the prep pre-work interviews and even the illustrations that I do, all of that is digital. However, when it's coming to the large scale, half day, one day, two day, things like that, I wouldn't say five days because we're not doing five days in person at this point, but when it comes to those big things there, for me, they're happening in person because people are seeing the benefit of coming together and being together in a physical space, which means real sticky notes for me, which means pipe cleaners and fidget toys and printed illustrations all over the walls, synthesizing some of their data and information. But I do think that to get back to the voice piece that we were just talking about, there are definitely different techniques that you can use in the in-person space and in the digital space to exactly your point, Jared, of making sure people are contributing in a way that feels right for them. If you are digital, it's really easy to have a digital sticky board. I'm not promoting any of these softwares, but maybe use Miro or Mural or Jamboard with Google or something where people are putting their ideas and they're typing them. There's a little bit of that anonymity that you get where is in person, and you might do that on a sticky note. So that can be a really great technique. It helps people process information before they have to speak it or before they have to share it. And it helps them also then synthesize and organize information that everyone is contributing. So you can do that in-person and you can do that digitally. But then thinking about the small group piece that we talked about. So you move from individual work into pairs or small groups. In person, you have a little table and you group up and you work through something together digitally. Let's use a breakout room for that. And so it really, there aren't that many differences. The process for me is pretty similar. You definitely have to allow for a little bit more transition time and potential tech snafus digitally. But then again, people get lost at the snack basket on their way between activities in person. So maybe that is a mute point. That is true. You know, it's interesting because I agree with you. I work with a couple groups who, you know, we used to all meet together. And then of course, you know, pandemic and moved remote. And then some of our folks have in a couple of different boards have stayed remote. And I was just thinking about this at a board meeting last week. Folks that in real life were much more animated and present and doing things. And in a digital context, you don't hear from them. I mean, they show up on time, they might not, they leave. I mean, the engagement factor is so present to me and so concerning. And I feel like it's somewhat of a bullying situation when you're like, well, Jared, we haven't heard from you. What do you think? And you know, I don't know what is the way to navigate that. And maybe you could, before we move on, give us some ideas on that. Cause we've all have to be experiencing this. Absolutely. And I think it's a really important thing to recognize that just as I am a facilitator, and we are often facilitators in our spaces as well. I am also a participant. I go to sessions where I'm not running the session. I'm not, and I go and I'm not always the best participant either. And I have to recognize that. It's not that I'm rude or I don't participate, but sometimes you just don't feel the drive and the engagement to click onto that zoom. So for me, it's a moment of empathy of recognizing that people are going to be in very different spaces when they come into a digital meeting. So maybe you do give people the option to, let's take a moment and let's do some work. Let's turn our cameras off, give people that break. Or if you're meeting during a lunchtime or a breakfast time or snack time, which is kind of always, for me, this is now the second time I've brought up snacks in this conversation, clearly a passion of mine. But I think that there is something just about being realistic and being empathetic of giving people the space to interact differently. Because when you are on Zoom, you feel like you're always being watched. When you're in a room of people, you don't feel that quite as much. It feels a little bit more natural. So I think as we went through the pandemic and everything moved to digital, everyone had to learn a new way of meeting. Now we're kind of swinging back where we get to choose very intentionally. Is this supposed to be an in-person session? Is this important enough for us to be together? Is that more valuable than the convenience of online? Or is this just a meeting where we can get together, we can connect online, and then we can maybe prepare for something that's down the road. But you asked for a couple of tips and tricks though. I would say, remember that people can use the chat and it's a good way to process your thoughts. For me, the chat is the easiest version of the sticky note. It allows you to compose your thoughts, develop some of your thinking, and then share it out with the group. It's a little less daunting than unmuting the microphone sometimes, especially in a large group. And it allows you to participate in a different way. So that's just, I think that's the most simple one is, make sure you keep diversifying the tool set that you're using. And maybe you're using some of the tools and technology for surveys and quizzes and word clouds and things like that. Or maybe you're just giving people the chance to use the chat or go into a breakout room and just thinking about what you would do in person and how it feels. I think that's a big part of it. Great feedback. And I would add too, Julia, what I've seen it is, it's the culture of the organization. What is the expectation that's been set? And I've been guilty of the same of my internet not being connected. Even though I want to be in person, I shut down my video to help with the bandwidth. And so I think it's also just setting the tone. I was working with one organization and they set the ground rule, right? If someone turns off their camera without kind of a statement of be right back or whatever, another board member would kind of like a buddy system would check in to make sure they're okay. Is there anything you need? Will you be back in five minutes? So really like setting the culture for that facilitator, kind of like behind the facilitator support. We don't have much time, but I do want to switch us to this gear, which is the external facilitators, the contracts and the cost. And we were talking in the green room, if we were being very stereotypical, kind of standard, we all said that we hear often, free is the best cost that most nonprofits are seeking. And it's not free the lowest, but I have to just say, I don't agree with either of those. So Abby, what are you seeing by way of contracts, cost, kind of that scope of work? Are there any particular dollar amounts that you're seeing as an external facilitator? I see a crazy range in prices. So this might be an absurd range, but I see anything from maybe that $5,000 workshop to $25,000 plus, and then it goes up from there. I mean, sometimes that can get way higher, double, triple that higher line because it depends on what you're looking for. Are you just looking for a half day engagement where people are coming together and creating and developing ideas and learning how to solve problems creatively in a space together? Maybe, do you need additional prep work? Do you need, are you, what is that scoping, what does that scoping process look like for you? What are there other opinions you need to bring into the mix? Do you want the voice of the community to be a part of your session? So there are so many ways where this price can just be all over the place. It's one of the hardest questions I have to ask. And it's not that I'm not prepared with the answers, but there's so many variables that the most important thing I think you can do is have a call with someone on the front end and figure out what are all of the things that I could offer that you might need from this session or what's the value of it, what's the importance of it? And I also just wanna say if those numbers feel scary, there are oftentimes foundations and other funders that see the value in this work and will fund this type of work to have an external person come in and develop a session for you all and guide the group because they know how much success it can bring. So I would say it's always worth a conversation and funds can sometimes come from other places for nonprofit clients. Do you find that you have to educate potential clients or just folks that are exploring this as to how this works and what goes on? Because it seems to me that you either understand it and you know it and you support and you buy in or you have no experience with it. And I'm kind of wondering what you see on that arc of bringing in a facilitator. Yeah, so I think because especially with the graphic facilitation part of Mindflower Studio, most people are unfamiliar with what that even means and what that looks like. So I'm regularly doing education with clients and helping them see literally what the process might look like. I actually oftentimes will draw out a part of my proposals as we're scoping the project. There'll be an illustration in there that showcases what the process could look like if we go through with this project just to help people see all the steps along the way, what's coming out of different parts of the process and where we'll start and where we'll end. But every project is so unique and very bespoke as well. So I'm going on the journey with you, knowing that I have ample tools and things that I can pull from to help support any different type of conversation that we need to have. But yes, definitely need to educate people along the way. But that's how you build relationships too You decide, hey, do you want to go on this journey together? Here's what it could look like. And then we hop on it together and we see where it takes us. I love it. Well, you have been a great person to be on a journey with today another episode of The Non-Profit Show. Abby Wilke Mackey, founder and facilitator of MindFlower Studio. Check out MindFlowerStudio.com to learn more about Abby's unique approach and how we can use facilitators to navigate some of the perplexities that we get as a group. And I think it's a really interesting way to look at the growth of an organization. And it's been really fun to hear you talk about this. And I think also too, Jared, it's such an interesting time because we still are on that digital IRL piece. What is it looking like? I mean, everybody's still trying to figure it out, right? And so I think a lot of planning has been stopped because we didn't figure it out or we couldn't figure it out. So now it's kind of ramping back up. So it's been really fun, Abby to have you on and to talk about this. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Non-Profit Academy been joined today by the non-profit nerd herself, Jared R. Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Again, as Jared mentioned at the top of the show, we have amazing support that is just unparalleled. It comes from Blumerang, American Non-Profit Academy, non-profit thought leader, staffing boutique, your part-time controller, 180 management group, fundraising academy at National University, JMT Consulting, non-profit nerd herself and non-profit tech talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out. Okay, Jared, I don't know about you, but I'm ready to get a facilitator to my next board meeting. I know, it's fantastic. Abby and I have talked about co-facilitating, level up how organizations are working through this, maybe that visual element entices them to come back in person, although she does amazing work digitally too. So all great solutions. But thank you, Abby, it's been a pleasure. Thank you both. Thanks, Julia. Thanks, Jared. It's been a lot of fun. You know, every day we end the episode with the non-profit show with a mantra, and it means different things all the time. And today it means something different yet again, because we've been talking about meeting and facilitation and getting voices together as we journey towards our own missions. And our message goes like this, to stay well, so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone. Thank you, ladies.