 with any kind of speaking, just like any kind of writing, just kind of like you're doing a science experiment, what, there are component parts. So you have to look at those pieces. I say to kids, okay, so you've seen a speech before, you've seen somebody talk, you get it. Now let's look at the pieces and let's break it down. You know, you look at an introduction. What information are they giving you in that little itty bitty piece that leads to the main structure of the body that then gives you all this knowledge? And then how do they wrap it up? How do they tie those ends together at the very end? And there have been people who have said that the amount of work that a varsity debater, so junior senior level debater puts in for a topic like that is as much or more work than someone who is doing their PhD dissertation. So interesting. And these are high school kids. These are 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 year olds who are doing that kind of research and we wonder why they're becoming leaders because they get it. And they're able to switch off of an affirmative or negative. Right, because they have to defend both sides. Every round they switch sides. What's up everyone, welcome to Simulation. I'm your host, Alan Sokian. We are on site in the beautiful Sioux Falls, South Dakota. We are now gonna be talking about speech and debate. We have Jennifer Bergen-Gabor joining us on the show. Hi Ms. Bergen. Hello. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Oh absolutely, thanks for having me. I love it, I'm so excited. Ms. Bergen was my debate teacher during high school and she's made a profound influence on me and so many other students now. For those who don't know her background, she's been teaching for 27 years in South Dakota. Currently at Roosevelt High School in Sioux Falls teaching speech, debate, oral and turf and language arts. She was also the oral and turf speech and debate coach. You can find her links in the bio below. Ms. Bergen, let's start things off with one of our favorite questions to ask our guests. What are your thoughts on the direction of our world? Ooh, it scares me some days. It really does. You know, just coming from South Dakota and farm background and all of that and what all the trade implications that are going on right now. And you know, we've got more and more farmers that are filing bankruptcy and there's not gonna make it. And it's like, okay, what's, how are we gonna fix this? Because once that happens, it's gonna affect all of us here in town too. We don't, we live and die by all of us working together. We're a small state, we're, you know, in this region and we really have to hold together and it really worries me. And then you start talking about climate change and you talk about glaciers that are disappearing and all of those things. And there's just so much going on and it's like, wow, and I have a little one and what's gonna be left for her when she gets to be my age. So it concerns me. I think the political climate right now is very frightening. It's just, it's so black and white and we've lost that area of gray where people would get together and say, okay, we have to do some give and take for the best of everyone. And that's really frightening. So, you know, I don't know where that's gonna take us. A lot of the spiritual leaders and spiritual teachings for the last thousands of years have talked about this connection to the divine or to source or to nature and the more that we have a whole connection to that, the less fragmented we are, the less we have issues that develop in our world. And so the more that we then develop our own connection with the divine and then help the social fabric become more and more just beautiful and ethical and just maximize the people bringing the gifts of all different sorts of gifts forward into our world. It seems like that would solve so many of the issues that we have, but it does seem like, does it seem like it's that fragmentation away from nature, away from source, away from those things? I don't know. I mean, I think about the whole big phrase out there now and you see it on shirts and you can see it everywhere and you can only be one thing, be kind and I think some people miss the boat on that. It's like, that's not just being kind to yourself, that's being kind to everyone. That's understanding, that's respecting, that's saying, you know what, we're different, but that's okay. I talk about the political climate and I think that so much now is things that I saw when I was a child as far as the ethnic name calling and the racial slurs and all of that and oh, we can't, and the funny part is, you know, I remember my parents and my grandparents talking about how, oh, and the Germans came, you know, those German neighbors, they were problems and it doesn't matter what immigration group it is, it doesn't matter what, you know, if they're different than the rest of us, we're afraid of them and what we should be doing is embracing them because they bring new and together the things that we can come up with and make this world a better place. You know, it's like, no, they're not invading us, they're enhancing us. It used to be that we would say, come, check in and bring what you have and do the best you can with it and we'll work together, we'll become neighbors. You know, yeah, it just, it scares me. You mentioned the gray area, the nuance, the importance of multivariate conversations to figure out what is our common sense making mechanism that we can best move forward with and that very much so feels like it's under attack by radicalization, by cognitive ease, tribalism, echo chambers, algorithms, news feeds, all this type of stuff and also just the addiction to instantaneous gratification and pleasures rather than this, like, okay, it's gonna take a while but we have to sit down and write out all the different variables and the complexity of it. Okay, okay. Now, on the journey, who are you growing up? I probably never asked my teachers about who they were growing up and why they became interested in what they got interested. And now this is like the thing that I care most about. It's like, yeah, and so now finally after so long, tell us about this journey. How much of a day are you on a day? I'm the middle of five who has, my sister's six years older than I am and so when she moved out at 18 and never came back, I was an only daughter with three brothers and there was lots of change with that. Besides that, we at that same time moved from living in small town Minnesota back to South Dakota and living on and started living on the farm. So I was out working with my brothers, you know, side by side, hand in hand doing farm work and my sister was nowhere to be found as she was moved on to college and everything else. Both of my parents are educators. My mom was a teacher. My dad was a principal. We laughed about the fact that we weren't sure how the last two were gonna graduate because dad wasn't gonna sign their diploma. You know, so that became the running fun joke. So we moved several times growing up because of my parents' jobs and those kinds of things. And so kindergarten, first, second grade, I was in three different schools. Moved again then when I was out of sixth grade and seventh grade, moved again going into my sophomore year in high school. And I look at those and I go, yeah, it was kind of tough and yeah, it was whatever. The other funny thing is all of the research, everything even back then said middle school years are your toughest years. You know, that sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade, that's the toughest. Try and keep your kids as stable and whatever. Every one of the five of us moved at some point during those time periods. And so we laugh about that. It's like you guys were educators, you guys knew. And you moved us anyway, you know. So but the benefits of having to adapt to new situations are so amazing. You know, I even have conversations now with my students and I say, how many of you were born and raised and you've never been anywhere but right here? Ooh, what percentage would you say, say, that they have only been in one city? I would say it's at least half. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. You know, because we've become so globally diverse in Sioux Falls, that's become less. It used to be probably three quarters. You know, when we moved across town, that's not what I'm talking about. Ooh, I switched from this elementary to this one where I went to middle school at, no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about major cultural shifts. I like how you talk about this adaptation that you experienced being like a beautiful lesson for you, a learning experience. You're looking at it like you're like kind of like learning from an ingaining experience from it and not like that, like something happened to you that like harmed you or hurt you. Yeah, yeah. I was a little miffed after sixth grade because we stayed in one place for five years. I didn't want to move, right? So that was a little tougher. But again, I grew from that. There were some things that weren't so much fun, but there were other things that I grew. I still say, going back to the town where our farm is, that some people still look at me like I have three heads because oh my gosh, we can make small towns out of Dakota and we'd lived an hour from Minneapolis, St. Paul. And we'd been there. We saw the big city and we knew there was a, and they were just like, well, we went to Sioux Falls and that's like two hours away. And some of them hadn't even been that far away from home. So, and this is in the early 70s. So, you know, we weren't as mobile. We weren't doing as much of that kind of stuff that we do now. Now nobody even questions that you just go. So, that became that cultural. That was really the hardest cultural shift for me is because people just kind of looked at us like, oh, you think you've seen the world and you know better and so they would, not necessarily treat us very nicely. But I still learned from it. And I'm not saying that everybody was that way because they weren't. I still have some good friends from those years. But being able to walk into a situation, step back, take a picture of what's going on, size up the people in it and then be able to step in and become part of it. Huge, huge, huge. You know, I, probably the best example I was involved in 4-H and, you know, so a lot of people I knew, 4-H is a youth organization. And so, you know, it's live, it's farm kids and it's city kids and it's everybody, but it's leadership and it's working with, you know, all the different kinds of things. Anything from arts and crafts to gardening to sewing to, you know, showing livestock and all of that. So my brothers and I were involved in that when we were back and on the farm. And I loved it. I mean, just the people I met and all of that. Okay, so most of those people are in cowboy boots and, you know, Western jeans and that kind of stuff. And I was at the State Fair several years, and probably one of the first couple of years I was teaching. So, I mean, I'd been out of 4-H for about 10 years. And I'm sitting there with all of my 4-H-E, cowboy, western-y, you know, where you're chick-hicker, it's kind of people. And we're just talking and all of that. And in walks, this guy I knew from living in Aberdeen, whom I'd done karaoke with, well, he's in a heavy metal rock band. So he's long hair and he's leather and they're all just looking at him like, and he's walking right toward me. And these guys that are friends of my friends, like so I don't even know them personally, are starting to get up off their seats. And it's like, I better intervene real quick here. But when I dealt with that situation, I said, you guys, he's cool. We know each other. He gives me a hug and we start talking and there's... But just by appearance. Just by appearance, they were like, why are you here? Yeah? Damn. And I thought about it after that. Right? And I thought about it after that and I went, man, I really am kind of a chameleon. And I can kind of weave into every, I mean, I can put on the fancy clothes and whatever and I can fit into the Richies and I can fit into the Every Days and I can just do that. And that comes from having moved around and that comes from having gotten to know people. My mom always joke that we brought home strays and mostly me. It's like, you're calling my friend strays. Okay. But I would, I would, those are the people that I would say, hey, you know what? You've got somebody here that'll stand up for you. That'll be there for you. An eclectic friend group. And I find that even with my students. I watch out for those kids that really look like they're struggling. That don't have people going, hey, how's it going today? Or, you know, they don't have that friend group. They don't have, they just kind of look like lost souls. So, and that's been something I've been doing since I was little kid. I love that, yeah. Yeah, you know, those are my people. Those are some of the greatest people around. I agree. Yeah. The most non-conforming people are definitely some of my favorite, yeah. Yeah, in fact, years ago I looked at some of my students and I go, you are such a freak. And they're like, what? I said, oh, no, no. In the good. That's a compliment, you know. You're not somebody who just fits the norm and follows the rules. And you actually try to expand the world. Yeah. And you question it, and you try to go outside of that. Oh, okay. I said, yeah, freak, it's okay. I love weird freak crazy. I love those words, yeah. They actually are major catalysts for innovation and creativity being expressed fully. Otherwise it can get quelled by conformity, yeah. Absolutely. Because if everybody said, then we're just machines. And we're just automats. And, wha, wha, wha. So this is you in high school. This is me growing up. Growing up, okay. Yeah. And then how then in your later years were you like, I'm interested in teaching? So I went and got my bachelor's degree. I picked Concordia in Moorhead, Minnesota. Did speech communications theater arts? Knew I loved it, but I also got a degree in home economics, which now everybody calls facts, family and consumer sciences. And I wanted to work as a youth director in 4-H. That's where I wanted to go. I wanted to go back to what had given me all of that. I knew that no matter what I did, that's the age group I wanted to work with. I love working with teenagers and even some of the other kids. And I had done a couple summers in the extension office doing some of that stuff. So I knew that it was something I loved. Well, there was kind of a glut in the market at the time. So I get home. I'm farming with my dad because I've got one brother off with up with people, traveling the world. I've got one that's a senior in high school and one that's off in college. So dad and I are tractor driving. Shh. He made the mistake one day of saying, hey, why don't you go in and get lunch ready? I said, how about whoever's tractor runs out of gas first? Goes and makes lunch. My dad made lunch all the time. He's like, whoa, where did this little sexist thing come from? And I just kind of laughed inside my head. Knowing I had the bigger gas tank. So he caught the message real fast. My dad and I were really tight. So that was kind of funny. So I spent time doing that and went, oh wow, my student loans are coming too. I don't have a job. I'm living with mom and dad. I'm on the farm. Yes, I'm working. But everything I'm doing is I'm right there. So I looked at what else do I want to do with my degrees? And I ended up going and getting my master's in counseling. And focus on mental health and focus truly on alcohol and drug addictions. Had a college roommate who was an alcoholic. And not somebody who drank all through high school alcoholic, she didn't have anything to drink alcohol wise until she went to college. But her biological system was such that the second she did, that was it game over. And she and I lived together our sophomore year and I went up when she went to treatment and all that. So that just became a real passion for me. It's like, okay, so this is another way I can help people. So I got that degree. Went and did some work at McCross and Boys Ranch. And also then worked at a human services agency and did a lot of alcohol and drug stuff. Created a group where I worked with teenagers who made bad choices and got arrested for whatever. So whether it was an underage or they ended up getting a DUI or whatever it was. Then I created a group and I would have group meetings with those kids like once a week. And I did most of the individual stuff. I also got to teach at the UI class. Where most of those people said, but I only had one drink. But your blood alcohol was 0.2. Yeah, yeah. Double the week limit and how big was the glass? What did you drink? Just a little shot. How big was the glass, right? And the funny part was when a friend of a friend ended up in my DUI class and I was just like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so there's lots of youth for drug alcohol counseling as well as adults. And so, okay, so you kind of had this this early desire to help people with their healing and with their growth process and the reflowering. You know, bringing strays home. Yeah. Yeah. It never went away. My mom wasn't wrong. How am I telling her that? Okay, okay. And so then that was going on for a couple years. Yep. Okay. And then it was like, okay, I get it. I hear the voices in my head. I'm supposed to be teaching. And I went back, got me teaching degree. And that's where I've been. I took a year, I taught for five years and they decided that I should be the debate coach and teach facts classes. And I was like, yeah, I did it for one because they needed me. And I was like, no, no, no, no, we're not doing this again. I had two separate classrooms, two different parts of an old building that was piecemeal together. So I was like truckin' between the two. And they said, I can't do it to me and I can't do it to a sub. And so I resigned. And then I took a year off just to reevaluate if I was gonna stay in teaching. And then I did get back in. And I went back into just one of those instead of just both. Yeah, and since then it's always been language arts speech debate there. Not facts as well. No more. That would be really hard, yeah. Those are two very challenging years. I mean, there's things that overlap. You start talking about child development and understanding those kinds of things. And that was the joke. It was single survival and child development that I taught. And I'd walk in the office and they go, but you're surviving as a single right now. I'm like, it's not the same thing as teaching it. You know, you're not funny anymore. Stop. So, yeah, and I didn't mind teaching it, but I just knew it was gonna be too much. Too much stress on me and too much stress on everything else. And I wasn't gonna give 100% to everything. And this was then like 98? That would have been 97. Seven. Yeah, fall of 97. Is that spring of 97? Okay, and then that was at Duel. Up in it. Nope, that was up in Aberdeen. Yeah, so Aberdeen was first. And what year was the first student? Where were the first students? I started teaching in the fall of 93, 92, 92. Because I was lamenting the fact that I was in school when Roosevelt opened. And it was like, oh my gosh, there's a debate opening. There's the, and it's like, oh my gosh, everybody, all these positions are gonna be filled. And I'm gonna be a year behind them. And there aren't gonna be any jobs. So I was a little nervous. Because I was then student teaching while everybody else had these jobs that I thought I was gonna have a chance at. And there was a big shift in the debate community, which once that happens, that usually settles in for five, 10 years. Okay, okay, so what were the age group in Aberdeen to start for you? So I was teaching debate to sophomores because at that point, Aberdeen Central had still the junior high. So the freshmen were over in another building. They could come and be part of the team. They could be in activities, but they were in a separate building. So we only had 10, 11, 12th graders in that building. So I had sophomores for debate. I was teaching junior English, which was the research paper comp and American lit. Somebody else was teaching speech who didn't have a degree in speech. And I was like, wow. But I love teaching the lit and stuff too. I mean, I just, again, you can start talking about the whole connection to society and all of that. It's always been high schoolers? Always high schoolers. Okay, okay, okay. And then where was, so it was about four years then? So it was five in Aberdeen. Five in Aberdeen. And then where's dual? Dual is in Clear Lake. Is in Clear Lake. Which is between, if you take a triangle and make it between Watertown Brookings and Cambie, Minnesota. Oh, okay. It's right there, boom. Oh, okay, okay. Okay, and then there was another like four? I was there for six. Six years. And that's also where I went to high school. Oh, that's where I went to high school? Because back then it was so-called Clear Lake High School. They had done some consolidating. Okay, and same thing, speech and debate and language arts. Yup. Okay. So. Okay. And then how did you decide to move there and then how did you decide to move to Roswell? How did you pop those two jumps? So my former coach and teacher who was actually hired my senior year was leaving to come down to Sioux Falls, Lincoln. And she and I had been talking for a year or better about, hey, you know, it's just something you wanna do. You wanna get back in. I was still going out and judging. So I was still connected with the speech and debate community while I was taking that year off. So that was good. And I just said, yeah, I might as well apply. And so I did and they offered it to me and I said, I can go back home. I had family living in the area. My aunt and uncle lived right there and a couple of cousins and in fact, I ended up having their children as my students. I had former classmates, children as my students. I found out I was related to a whole lot more people in that town than I thought I was. It was like, oh, your mom and my mom are cousins. Yeah, hi. And your mom and my mom are cousins and your mom's my cousin, you know. And that was my first sophomore class there. I think there were five of them out of 50. They were related to me. You know, and somebody would make some comment about, oh my God, I said, oh, your life could be worse. You could be one of these people that's related. I mean, they're like, oh, yeah, you're right. So, yeah. In fact, that year, the senior English class that I taught about month to months in, the boys decided they were gonna get brave enough to ask me how old I was. You know, cause that's always the, who old are you? And I said, you know, we're talking. And I said, man, you know, you can guess. And they guessed some age that was so not even close. They were way low. And one of the girls was like, raising her hand. And I said, yes. She goes, didn't you graduate with my mom? I said, yeah, I did. Oh, her mom was seven months pregnant when we got, when we walked across the stage. She now teaches down here in Sioux Falls. Has two little kids. In fact, her son was born the same day as my daughter. How about weird connections? But her mom and I started reconnecting. We weren't friends in high school. We knew each other. We weren't unfriendly, but, and she sent my parents a letter. Probably, my dad's been gone about six years now. So probably about eight, 10 years ago. Sent them a letter and said, I just want you to know how thankful I am that the two of you didn't let me quit. Because back in 1988, you didn't finish school if you were pregnant. And my parents sat down with her and said, you have to do this. What can we do to help? I didn't know that. I didn't know they'd done that for her. You know, so I'm just like, yep, that would be my parents. I don't know why I didn't think that, but that's what happened. And she and I talked and she goes, I just want you to know, I sent your dad and mom this letter and I can't do anything but thank them. And then I thought, wait a minute, I'm not the only one that helps strays. You know, it's a family thing. I mean, it is, big hearts, big hearts, definitely. And then, so then the pull to Roosevelt then, how did that happen? So when I was at Duel and Clear Lake, I was coaching Oral and Terp. I was coaching Debate. And I was also directing three shows. Oh wait, plus I had a full-time job called teaching. I was to the point where my body was falling apart. Physically, I had a doctor say, what's going on, something's gotta give. That was it. It was just, it was too much because I also wasn't getting the supports I needed from my administration and all of that. And I just said, my health is more important as much as I don't want to leave here. I mean, I had, I had one year, I mean, Duel's a school of 200 in the high school. We had five kids at a national tournament one year. Going up against Watertown and Aberdeen Central and Millbank, which is a powerhouse at the time and here on and all of those were all the ones we were going up against. I mean, it wasn't in Brookings. I mean, so it wasn't like we were plucking out and just getting lucky. We were working our families off. And I had an administrator who, because his football team wasn't being successful, he was mad. It's like, okay, if you're gonna be jealous because these kids are having advantages and every one of those five kids is doing unbelievable things right now. Unbelievable things. I mean, they're all over the country. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I know. And I just, and I still keep in touch with all of them and yeah. That's what top tier speech and debate really do, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think they do that. One is an administrator at a school down in the Twin Cities now and that's not where she started, but, you know, hers was once doing HR for, you know, medical and one is out in North Carolina still going to grad school and doing amazing things there. And just, yeah, one's out in the LA area from Dool, clearly like South Dakota. Those are all massive jumps, yeah. Yeah. And Dool's how big again in size? The town, maybe 2000. Yeah, see, that's a big deal to go out because every single one of those people when they say where they're from, the other people will be like, yeah, I've never heard of that place. Right. Every time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so back to this transition to Roosevelt. So, I knew there was an opening at Roosevelt. I also knew that I didn't know if I wanted to go to a school of that size and still be involved. I was really burned out. This is a big... I was really burned out. You were burned out and this is a big jump. So you're... Right. Yeah, you're... So the school where you were teaching at was how many hundred kids? 200 in high school. 200 in high school and this is an order of magnitude bigger, 2,000 kids in high school. Right, so... Yeah, it's a big deal. Roosevelt High School at the time, if you counted staff, students, anybody that worked there was about the same size as the town I came from. Yeah, that's crazy. And I mean, they said that to kids and they're like, well, I said, yeah, people actually live in those places, it's okay. Yeah, yeah. And they have smarts and they have good things going on and they have, I said, it's okay. You know? But that was culture shock for them to know that I had been, you know? So it's kind of funny. The school is the size of a city. Yeah. Which is kind of what you get with these bigger public universities as well that are like 50,000 kid universities. 2,500 students. Now it's easy. Coming in tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. You know? So it is crazy, but there are so many things that are so much the same no matter where you go. Okay, so what were your excitement and reservations as you were moving into the move? Okay, so coming here, I had, within the year prior, finished my master's in administration. So I was really looking for administration jobs. I was ready to move to that level, follow my dad's footsteps, yada, all of that. So Sioux Falls had an opening at the district level for a fine arts coordinator. I went, hello? This seems like a good, so I applied for that. So I didn't apply for the teaching job right away. In fact, it was July when I had my interview. They had already gone through a whole cycle of interviews and turned everybody down. So I came in and at the time, Rosalind was looking for someone and the Washington coach was taking a one-year sabbatical. So I interviewed at both places on the same day. And I mean, I didn't even get 10 minutes away from the last interview and I got a call from the human resources and said, which one do you want? Yeah, that's great. So I mean, I had a choice. Do I want to take the one year? Do I want to take the one that I know is going to be around for a while? Well, not knowing the culture of the Sioux Falls School District and openings that might be available in the following year. It's like, I don't want to be hung with just a one-year position and I got to turn around this all over again. Of course, yeah. So, and a young man who had been my assistant up in dual was trying to get into the system too and had been turned down for some reason. There was some black mark on his information because they had said, hey, yeah, we're really interested in hiring you. And then IPC said, yeah, no, you're not. And they got their hands slept and whatever. So I was keeping in contact with him the whole time. I said, let me think about this and I'll get back to you. Called him and said, okay, here's the deal. You, me, these two positions need filling. If I take the Roosevelt job, you can call the principal at Washington and you know that principal because you had connections through his kids and stuff from college and say, look, this is a one-year gig. And it's even a part-time gig. I can take care of your program for a year. And so he went to bat then at IPC and said, look, this is the only guy that's out there. So both of us came in the same year. We're both still here. Great, oh, he's still there too. He's now teaching AP Econ and yeah. Oh, he made this leap in, great. Right, you know, had a PF team that made fourth in the nation had, I mean, so coaching wise, he's been very successful as well as teaching wise, he's been successful. That's a huge deal. You know, it's like, you gotta get this guy another chance. Yeah. Because he student taught while he was teaching full-time. Yeah. Because they needed a teacher and they hired him on and in another town. And I think that's where the problem came in because he really struggled. He didn't have anybody mentoring him. So when they got him, you know, when he got here, he said, here's what I need from you. I need this mentoring. I need these things to happen. So. Give us an idea of what this has been like then. Let's go ahead and do it with the Roosevelt days and you can even, you know, sparse in a little bit of the earlier days as well on the way, but really these, you know, this last decade plus of taking what you've been learning in speech and debate, teaching that or teaching that language arts in dealing with all the like unique learning styles of the students, dealing with the addition of technology into the classrooms. What has been like, how do you, you know, take a big field like speech or debate and how do you even like synthesize it into a prep like for a class? So yeah, walk us through this. So with any kind of speaking, just like any kind of writing, just kind of like you do in a science experiment, what there are component parts. So you have to look at those pieces. I mean, I say to kids, okay, so you've seen a speech before, you've seen somebody talk, you get it. Now let's look at the pieces and let's break it down. You know, you look at an introduction. What information are they giving you in that little itty bitty piece that leads to the main structure of the body that then gives you all this knowledge? And then how do they wrap it up? How do they tie those ends together at the very end? We take something like a great speech and then we begin breaking it down into its components. How did they make the intro? How did they make the body in their conclusion? How did they wrap it all together to make it so that they were able to communicate something of great knowledge and just pass it along to someone else? Yeah. Okay, and so then this is then the process is then, how do you get then students to then do things like go through that process themselves with topics they actually want to talk about or sometimes you have to also give them. Yeah. Okay, so how does this process work? So years ago I stole from somebody else cause that's what good teachers do. We steal from each other and we readily admitted, hey, I stole that from you. And I really like, it's three phrases. If you break up a speech into tell them what you're gonna tell them, and then tell them what you told them, then they're gonna come away with the stuff that you want them to have. Okay, so kid, what is it you wanna share? What do you want them to know? Find that information now, let's get that organized. And now let's go back and get that introduction to set it up so that people are gonna hear you. Because if you just start talking and you haven't set them up, they're not sure what to listen for. So teaching them that they have to guide just like they would if they're writing a paper is truly important. And then finish it up, you know? I tell them it's like a good burger. You get the patty in there but if you forget one of the buns, it's kinda messy, you know? It's like ooh, look at me. There's open face sandwiches and they're not bad but you can't hold them in your hand. They're not concise. So, you know, I do all that kind of drawing on the board and that kind of stuff. And of course they find out I'm not artistic and it's okay. It's okay, I readily admit it. Cause we all have our strengths. So just being able to get them in and I try to use examples from their personal life. You know, when we start talking about how do you incorporate evidence? How many of you have said to someone, my mom just said to me or my dad told me, and they're like, well yeah, you just incorporated evidence with a source. So we do that every day. I said, so, and I remind them that what we're doing is things we do every day. We're just giving it a name. We're just labeling the parts. You come home and you're when someone, your parent asks you how a school, you're immediately giving a speech, you're doing a story right away. Oh my gosh, this is the craziest day in my life. This and this and this happened. So when this happened, we do it. It's organized, it's planned out, but we don't think about it. So now I want to make them think about it. They're like, what, what, what, think, what? Oh, but stop thinking so hard. Pull those pieces together. Even to get them to frame an outline in outline format, Roman numerals and capital letters, they're like, this dumb look on their face, like what are you talking about? And then I start showing them that the whole web and clustering thing where you just put circles and you draw lines to connect. And they're like, well yeah, I know how to do that. And then I start drawing on there, the Roman numerals and capital letters. Oh, take what you know and then move it forward. That's true with anything you do in life. As a little kid, you watch mom and dad drive the car and you might have a little something that you drive and sooner or later, you're gonna get behind the wheel and all of that memory, all of those things we've learned along the way, in education we call it prior knowledge. We use that. So I try to find those common link things to help students. And then how does the student then get over some of the fear of delivering speeches? So I tell them there's always gonna be butterflies. You put me in front of my peers, my butterflies are going. You put me in a situation like this and you and I are just talking, it's you and I just talking, I'm okay. You put me in front of a classroom of students, not a big deal, that's what I do every day. But if you put me in front of all those speech and debate coaches and I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. I still get the butterfly. It's okay, as long as you know how to use them to your advantage. You take that energy and maybe you gotta make something really big so you can throw them out of there. So just talking to them about gestures and movement, body language and those kinds of things to let them know how do you use it, how do you get over it. And the key is if you're organized, if you've planned ahead, if you've prepared ahead, you are calmer. Cause you know what you wanna say? You're not going in and going, ooh, what am I gonna talk about? You know, you're just kinda weirding yourself out. Okay, yeah, yeah, we were talking yesterday and I was telling her all this stuff and where I was telling my friend I was, yeah, you know what you wanna say. Now just do it. The mnemonic techniques help a lot, the memory palaces, things like that, yeah. And then I also tell them, you know, especially for those that just kinda like, whew, you know, the raceway speeches, slow down and breathe. Because the second you take that slow cleansing breath and then you let it out slowly, any of us can feel our heart rate slow down. That in turn slows down how fast you're gonna talk. And if you need to do that in the middle of a speech, find a place that it works. Even if you're still talking, you can still do it. So just teaching them those little tricks that should hopefully become second nature to them. Oh, those are so good. Yeah. And I tell them in the beginning, if I start talking too fast, you have to let me know. Because I don't know, you know, you can't debate for how many years, plus I was a debater myself. Plus my mom said I came out, the second I started talking, it was at the fastest rate, you know. So I've been talking fast since I was a little kid, evidently. Sometimes I need people to slow me down. One of my first years of teaching, I had a foreign exchange student in my class and she dropped the class and I was like, what happened? She goes, you just went so fast. I said, oh, what you want to do is tell me to slow down. And then, you know, I started in the hallways and she and I talked all the rest of the year and stuff. And she's like, I wish I'd have stayed and I wish I'd have known that. So I now make that very clear up front. I mean, that was a learning experience for me too. I was just a kid at the point too. How does the decision to give the students a topic versus let them freestyle their own topics come? So to be honest, I don't just say, here's your topic. I will give them a pool of topics. So I have a speech that I've been doing for several years and it's musicians who have made great change that has led to where we are today. Well, it's musicians from the 50s, 60s and 70s. And the further we get away from that, the closer we still are because that music is right out there. You know, you go to any CSI show and that music is from the 50s, 60s and 70s. Some of those artists are still out there. I mean, how many concerts we've had here in town that have been those people. And it's amazing because, oh, that song's on Shrek or that song's on, you know, and they're hearing it in movies and it's like, you didn't even realize this was this band. You didn't realize this was this soloist. And so it makes them think about, even though that was 60, 70 years ago, some of it, it's still pertinent today. They still did things. I mean, you're not finding stuff from the 90s that's getting repeated now, but you are finding stuff from the 50s, 60s, 70s that keeps getting, dream girls was just done. Mama Mia is all that music from then. I keep going. I mean, it's just, it keeps coming back because it was good, solid music and it made them look at that. Okay, so what did these groups do or what do these individuals do that who's the precursor to rap? Who's the precursor to, you know, who is the first one that did the big arena? Concerts, months from that era. So, you know, as much as they go, ugh, once they start getting into it and listening to the music and realizing, oh my gosh, you know, there's always some of them that are like, oh, my parents listen to that and others do it all the time. It's the greatest stuff in the world. And I don't know, I want to do all of this. Yeah, let's not. Let's find some of the other ones. Elvis is on the list, but, you know. So, but it's fun. So there's an embedded educational or evolutionary, ethical, moral, spiritual lesson that's embedded in the topics that you give them in this one. And they kind of get to figure out what those lessons are themselves as they do their research and give the speeches. But it's really cool to have it be about something like the evolution of consciousness and how much more aware or more towards light that we became from these great musical leaders, yeah. And they're like, why isn't this group on there? Why isn't this group? You know, it's like, why isn't Queen on there? Well, Queen did some amazing things, but there were other people that were already doing it. You know, you talk about the whole rock opera and the storytelling, and you're talking meatloaf. He was there first, so that's his on the list. Let's break down the different styles of speech. So like oral interpretation, extemporaneous speaking, original oratory, and informative, which includes visual aids. I remember doing extemporaneous speaking, and that was a lot about finding evidence and then just going and giving a talk on a specific evidence-based topic. What are the differences between, you know, I actually never did oral inter, but I thought it was quite interesting to take the different beautiful narratives or pieces that had been written and be able to add your own interpretive style to the oratory delivery. So extemp what you did, extemporaneous, is current events. You know, what's going on in the world or what's going on here right here in the U.S.? You get a question and you have to answer it. But again, it's that introduction, body, conclusion. There it is. Both domestic or international, and you get to pick. Still? Yes, that's absolutely true. Okay. And the question is for how long is the question a year or how long is it just that tournament is the question? Right, because that question list, every tournament has a question list. Every question list comes. So the best you can do to prep for that is to pay attention to the news. Mm. You know? So you're watching the news, you're reading the news, you're organizing, and then you're filing some of those articles so you can go back to look at them. And then those same articles. And now that you're in electronically, you remember you was, oh my gosh, they get it all on Google Drive or whatever, they can just store that. That's very interesting compared to what we had with the big tubs of stuff. And so it's cool that they can then take what they did for speech with current events and they can then apply that to their public form or policy debates, Lincoln Doug's debates. Right. Yeah, they can be. That crossover. Crossover. Okay. And it teaches you a different kind of speaking style. Yeah. Which comes in handy sometimes too. A single versus a team, like with both form of policy. Right. And a different way of using evidence. Yeah. You know. One, you're using evidence to beat your point home. The other, you're using evidence as a support. So one evidence drives it. The other one, the evidence is not. It supports it. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So oral interpretation, one of the best ways to explain it to people is it's like reading a book to a little kid. And if you start doing Goldilocks and the Three Bears and you're like, and the Three Bears came in the house and they got scared. No little kid's gonna listen to you. They're gonna be screaming. They're gonna be pounding. They're gonna be doing whatever, going, that's not right. But if you're like, and Goldilocks walked in and realized she was really hungry and she smelled the porridge and it smelled so good. So she tried it. And the first bowl she tried was too hot. And you're using your whole body and you're using your voice. Oh, this is just right. And the bed and the chair. And then the bears come in and go, oh, the little bears cry because it stops all gone and broken. And you know, mom and daddy are going, what the heck's going on in our house? That's gonna, it's bringing it to life. And it doesn't matter if it's a piece of poetry, if it's a children's book, if it's a narrative like you're talking about, any of those things, it can be a play, it can be in prose form, it can be serious, it can be humorous. There's so many choices. Bringing it to life is the key. Yes. Yeah. Without changing the author's intent. Because if you take a novel and you only have 10 minutes to present, I don't know too many novels that are gonna fit in that 10 minutes. Nobody talks that fast, not even debaters. So you have to cut, what we call cutting, and you find that story within the story. And you tell that story. So maybe it's, you know, maybe it's a main character, maybe it's a minor character, but you like the story that's being told about it. And you just focus on that, and you bring that out. So there's some choices that have to be made. And then physically you have to, if you're gonna be drinking out of a glass, I wanna see you drink out of a glass, and your thumb better not be here on your face, and you need to make it realistic. So it's all pantomimes as well. So that's, it's fun. And then besides individually, you can do it as a duo, you can have a partner. But one of the two rules that kind of throw it to make it not acting, you cannot physically touch. And you cannot have direct eye contact. Interesting, yeah. So you look over each other's shoulder. So it looks like you're looking at each other, but you can't actually look. If something's sad, you can't have tears coming out. So you can bring them right to the edge, but they're not supposed to drop, because that's acting. Interesting. So it's that fine line. What? There's like a line? You're talking about total body control. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Because you don't get costumes, you don't get make-up, you don't get any makeup. Okay, yeah, no costumes and makeup. You can gesticulate, but you can't start performing really physically all over the stage. You can do some. You can't cartwheel and shit. There have been people who, if they have done some of that or dropped to their knees or... That's okay. Right. But interesting. Or they'll make a hug, but now they're just touching each other. Okay. Interesting. Okay, so you can't go into acting. That's cool. It's right to be acting. Yeah, it's right to be acting. Interesting, yeah. Okay. So. Okay, so duo, can you go trio or quartet? Can you go... So you do duo or in South Dakota, we have a thing called Readers Theater, which is three to six people. Cool. Yeah, so they're different too. Okay. They can actually write their own if they want to. So I've worked with students. One time we took Dr. Seuss and to think you saw it on Mulberry Street, and then we took other Dr. Seuss books and it was right around the time of the O.J. Simpson trials. I mean, so that's how long ago it's been. And we even threw in something about gloves. With the whole glove not fitting. And I mean, so we brought in pop culture as well, but we, all these little pieces, you know, the foot book was in there and we just, everybody picked, brought their favorite one and we worked as a team to put a piece together. We sat on my living room floor and went, keep it, don't keep it, you know? And I had a blast. Now, would I have that group on my living room floor now? 27 years later, no. We're gonna stay at school. Where there's cameras in the hallway, where there's, and that's something that's changed that is really too bad. Whoa, you can't take the practice outside of the... What happens if something happens in my home? And who's to say it happened or it didn't happen? We live in a whole different world than we did 27 years ago. You know, those parents were like, oh, you're at her house, great. Call me when you're ready to go home or at least let me know when you're on your way home. No big deal. Everybody brought snacks, made sodas. Yeah, we worked for three hours. And that was after we'd had practice at school. Yeah, yeah. So it's nine, 10 o'clock. They're still at my house. Wow, how fast things have changed to a more, big brother style of existence. Because we've become so litigious. It's like, oh, you're gonna put a lawsuit on me. Oh, okay. You know, I mean, people have lost their jobs because somebody said, well, something happened. Nothing happened, but you were mad at that person. So you said it and there it is. That doesn't go away. Okay, we'll talk more about these differences in a little bit. Okay, original oratory and informative. Original oratory and informative are both student-written. So they do the research, they pick the topic, they do it. Original oratory is persuasive. And so quite often it becomes a problem solution, but it can be a, here's what's going on in the world, where are we gonna go from here? Kind of concept two. So that one's kind of fun because, I mean, soup to nuts, everything is possible. Same thing with informative, you pick a topic. And they do that topic all year at the church. Yes, once they write it, they can always tweak it and do all of that, but they stay with that same speech because they memorize it. And how long would you say then you're given for an oral interp is? Oral interp is a 10 minute maximum. Oratory and informative are 10 minute maximums. Extemporaneous is five to seven minutes. Yeah. And then does oral interp also get like a single performance throughout the year that I've put together? Usually, they'll stay with it. And some of them will have two different pieces they're working on. Okay, yeah. So maybe they got a humorous one and a serious one or they're in a duo and a solo one. Yeah. Okay, okay. So or they're doing an oral interpiece and they're doing original oratory as well because they want to write their own. So they can cross all of that. So at most with extemporaneous speaking, they're getting a couple like hours to prepare for there. 30 minutes. So here's the question. Here's the question, you have 30 minutes and you're speaking. Yeah. Which is why I say you have to know what's going on in the world. In the world. You have to be on top of the news. Yeah. To be able to do it well. And then because yeah, you're pulling the card from the evidence about this article said this from the source, yeah, about what's happening. Right. So okay, 30 minutes on that one. Okay. So that was I think original oratory. Okay. And then let's do. And then formative is fairly new. It just started in the last four years. And it can be again, any topic. Like I said, we had a student from another school who was walking around the toilet seat because he was talking about bathrooms and how they've changed and how you know that kind of stuff. One young lady was carrying around a little mini coffin because she was talking about funeral homes and working in them and doing those kinds of things. Anything's for any topic. And they get to have those can't help visual aids. So I mean, they can have posters to the judges. They just have them up there with them. Up there with them. So they're using them. Right. I can bring like props of visuals. Yeah, that's interesting. So people were using a lot of 3D kinds of things and some use posters and some use actual items. So that's nice because now you've got two very different writing styles in persuasive original oratory or in that informative style. One, you're just telling about something and giving people that information. The other one, you're trying to pull them to your side of the issue and get them thinking the way you want them to think. For all of those speech subcategories, are they all being judged by multiple judges and then the multiple judges are picking well like a ranked order of like ascribing which one of the performers that I give the high score to versus the second, third, fourth, fifth and then those scores are congregated. So what will happen in a regular round and a tournament round? Is there will be one judge in the room and then usually not more than seven competitors and then that judge has to listen to all of them, write comments to them, give them feedback, things that went well, things they can work on and then they have to rank them one, two, three, four, five, five, five, five. Okay, so quite often we just stop at five. Some tournaments now are stopping at six. Some are saying just rank them all, it's okay. Because then those scores- One being the highest. Right. And then they'll either have two or three preliminary rounds. So they'll get two or three different judges that will hear them. And then those scores get tabulated and then the top, you know, five, six, seven will go into a final round and in the final round there's three judges in the back of the room. Okay, yep. So it's not just based on one person's view of it. Yeah, I'm actually a little bit, I would love to see more adults especially like in their 20s. Like I would have loved to continue like to doing extemporary speaking like in San Francisco and stuff like that. Like I would have loved to see that happen. So I know the one organization that exists is Toastmasters. Yeah. And they do have competitions. Yeah, they do, yeah. So that's one option. Yeah, yeah. That's like, yeah, you're right. That's pretty good, that's pretty solid. I wish it was more popular is the thing. Like I wish all of these were available to all ages with judges that were being like paid in that there were people that were excited about this and that like that this would help with that whole thing we were talking about with nuance and gray area. Yeah, yeah. Because you look beyond yourself. Whether it's oral and turf, whether it's extemp, whether it's originatory or informed, you have to look beyond yourself. What is it that I'm trying to bring to the rest of the people here? Yeah. What do we want them to hear? Here, yeah. And it can't just be my own thoughts. I have to support it. Yeah. Okay, let's do debate. So, let's do debate. Let's do debate. So, okay, let's start with policy debate. Okay, so policy debate is wanting to make a change in the system that's going on now, okay? Just like our, you know, Congress will make a policy change. They'll make new law, they'll make whatever. That's what policy debate does. So, look at the area of climate change. Okay, so what are some ways we can better handle climate change? That's on the affirmative. They want to make the change. The negative says, it's good right now. Let's just back off. You don't need to make this change. Status quo, let's keep going where we're at. And they'll argue that back and forth. You know, what are advantages? What are disadvantages? You know, why is this a good idea? Why is this a bad idea? And support it with evidence. And multiple sources for it because if you just get one source, it's like yes, so one guy said that or one woman or one organization. Show me there's other people out there that believe the same thing. Back it up. And then show me with scientific evidence. I don't just want some schmuck that's read a book and decided to tell the whole world what he thinks. I want to have more than that. I want to know that there've been some studies and some research and those kinds of things. So policy debate really gets in depth. And through the years it's been things like consumer product safety. Every four years they'll do an international topic. So it's China, it's Russia, it's Latin America, it's whatever and it might be trade or it might be human rights issues or it might be any of those kinds of things. We've done education, we've done military, I mean and the topics kind of start repeating because there are some really big picture items that are important. So that's how cool. I like I got a little list of some for people. You don't even know what this year's topic is. This year's is the United States federal government should substantially reduce direct commercial sales and or foreign military sales of arms from the United States. And then the year prior the United States federal government should substantially reduce its restrictions on legal immigration to the United States. Prior to that increase its funding and or regulation of primary and or secondary education in the United States. And then prior to that was this international increase its economic and or diplomatic engagement with the People's Republic of China. Substantially curtailing its domestic surveillance. All these incredibly thought provoking topics. Yeah. There have been people who have said that the amount of work that a varsity debater so junior senior level debater puts in for a topic like that is as much or more work than someone who is doing their PhD dissertation. That's so interesting. And these are high school kids. These are 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 year olds. Who are doing that kind of research and we wonder why they're becoming leaders because they get it. And they're able to switch off of an affirmative or negative. Right, because they have to defend both sides. Every round they switch sides. So should they start on the affirmative, let's say on the first round and then they would switch to the negative and the second they'd have to debate against the different. Different team. Team. Yep. And they're persuading to re-judge it. Same thing with preliminary rounds of speech. You get one judge. And then the finals. If you get the out rounds or like quarters and that kind of stuff, then you'll get three judges. Same thing in public form. And I'll link them to the rest. One, two, three, okay, yeah, okay. Right. And so the negative is basically trying to do their best to make it so that the keep the status quo, don't listen to what the affirmative is saying. These are the reasons why you shouldn't listen. An affirmative is like, we need to transition to nuclear fusion for energy as soon as possible. Here is the vast amount of data and sources that are saying. Yep, here's the problems they're gonna create. The world's gonna blow up. The new war, whatever. Versus the high efficiencies of it. This is why we should do it. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. See, this is why I'm really happy you brought up how it's actually like as much research goes into this as even a PhD dissertation. I mean, can you believe the more young people and even adults later in their lives that have to do that much work to come up with a pro or con argument on these topics, be able to switch. Like that's what's gonna get more nuance, more gray area, more thinking instead of just a simple, cognitive eased binary statement about something. Yeah. And just the skills, the research skills, the thought skills, because you also have to ask the other team questions. So you need to come up with questions on the fly. You need to get those answers on the fly. And they need to be concise. They need to be focused. They need to be, because you're on a time limit. You got three minutes to ask as many questions as you wanna ask. Yeah, yeah. Eight minutes to present your speech. Yeah. You got five minutes to wrap up in your rebuttal. They're not huge amounts of time. It's not like you're getting an hour. That's right, yeah. You have to do a compression algorithm on the key points. Right. And then, yeah, you also have to do flow. You have to flow really well. Yeah, you better take good notes. You see, yeah. So when you do, in a sense, it's parsing for the key points that they are saying, writing those down with like abbreviation so that you don't have to, like I still use, you know, BC for because or BW for between or whatever. Which is W slash or width. W slash for width. Yeah, this type of stuff, without W slash O. So, yeah. And use arrows. Arrows, yeah, tons of arrows. Torn. Torn, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. So you're really, in a sense, you're, yeah, you're getting really good at, like parsing for key points, which is actually extremely relatable to everything else that you do, like when you're listening to other people talk to your friends, your families, coworkers, your romantic partners, all stuff, like, do you know how to listen for a key point and then ask a question about that key point, which is literally a key to life, is like that right there. Right. And you get excellent at that through debate. Right. Yeah, because you're doing it, you know, during practices and you're competing every weekend and you're, you know, you're constantly just improving on yourself. Yeah. Or you'll be in the, oh and life column on the, you know, everybody else is gonna kick your fanny at the tournament and. Yeah. What did I win? Well, you didn't work very hard this week, did you? Yeah. Yeah. What's the, let's talk about the, let's talk about evidence as well. You mentioned this a little bit for extent, but I just wanna say, like, this is really interesting that what you would do is you would take some, whatever you have as evidence and it used to be interesting cause we would do things like try and like use like a Wikipedia as evidence, but no, you have to actually look at what we're Wikipedia citing. Right. The site is citing. Look at the primary source. The primary source. Right. Cause Wikipedia is just another encyclopedia. Encyclopedia. And so, okay, so then what you do is you would take something and you would actually like instead of, you know, have a big 10 page, like, you know, that'd be a lot to try and you have to synthesize that into like a paragraph and that would be like your little like abstract about it. And then you would, it was called a tag, a site and a body. And like that would be the body and the tag would maybe be a sentence that's even synthesizing that. And then the site is where did it come from, the citation. And hopefully the tag is reflective of the body. Yeah. Some people do what we could refer to as power tagging. It's like, yeah, that didn't really say what you think it said. Nice try though. Oh yeah. Read that line again. No, that's not what it said. That's funny, because that is actually really applicable to the mainstream media right now where these tags, these headlines are just click-baity and the bodies don't even. And people don't go any deeper. They don't go any deeper. They just shout it out. Yeah. I was like, what are we doing people? Debate is so important. It's like something that like it should be required. So speech or debate is only a semester. It's only a semester. Requirement. Required. But we're one of the few states in the nation that still require it. What do you mean like literally they just dropped? Like I think there's 10 or less states that still require it. 10 or less states require just the semester in high school. So was there at one point when all 50 states were required? I don't know if all 50 were. But a lot more were. Yeah. And why did they- We'll over half. Why are like the humanities and language arts taking the toll of it? Well, when Common Core came in, there was talk here in South Dakota about, well, they've got the speech component already built in. So we really don't need it anymore. We should just get rid of it. This is the State Department of Ed was talking this. Well, we got wind of it and went back the train up because you're wrong. And even the English teachers were like, we don't have time to deal with the curriculum we have right now. No. Because it's the repetitiveness. You know, they do a speech. We talk about what they did, what went right, what went wrong. Now, let's find another topic and let's try again. And we have 18 weeks to do that. Whereas, and you know this, even with writing, you got six weeks to write a research paper of whatever sort in a class. Okay. I'm also not just teaching them how to stand up in front of people and get the words out of their mouth and teaching them how to outline. I'm teaching them how to use evidence and how to incorporate that in. And all of those things, and now they can take those skills into that six weeks in that English class and they don't have to take as much time to teach it there because these kids already know it. And you wanna get rid of this because, yeah, we don't think it's a good idea. So many of us wrote into the state because they had a time where we could make comments. And that's, well, that's been several years ago now when Common Core was first coming out and we haven't heard anything since. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great that even the English teachers were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't add that. And plus, that's a critical life requirement or skill that we don't teach in our English classes. So it's actually something that, I mean, if I was to, again, if I was to be someone that could make a request, would be treat, debate, and speech like it's a serious life skill, which it is literally speaking, persuasion, synthesizing evidence, note taking, all these types of things are just, they're so critical. And nuance, gray area, being able to switch between pro and con. I mean, those are such critical things. So instead of a semester, let's make it a year. And instead of a year, let's make it a lifelong thing where you're like frequently going through these processes. That's in a sense, that's what, besides featuring all the different leaders in their fields like we do on the show, I'm also synthesizing what these hundreds of people are teaching us on the show into some sort of a cool, relatable presentations along the way in these, and then eventually multimedia content, all different types of things. And so it's so applicable to life. And it's just like, can we make it more popular when we're adults too, to be doing these types of things? Like, could you pick up a complex project like healthcare, and could you then go and look at dozens of books and peer-reviewed papers and all these types of things about the way that we do healthcare and the future of healthcare and how to most optimally meet those requirements for people and paint some sort of strategic next steps on how to best do that. How much more of a well-rounded person would you be if you did that? So it's just like common sense, but it's in many ways like what was going on in the Agora days and the Greek days, or it's just more of this like socratic dialogue that was occurring, and now it's, yeah, yeah, yeah. So interestingly, and this is a great example, there's not a college that I'm aware of that doesn't require at least a semester of speech. And the vocational schools, the tech schools, have all, the junior colleges over the con now, have all gone to the same thing. You have to at least take a semester. We had a young lady several years ago that came back on one of her breaks and was at an Ivy League school out on the East Coast and said, you would not believe my classmates and some of my friends who went to Ivy League prep schools who were panicking during speech class because they didn't know what to do. And she said, little on me from South Dakota was like, I got this, speech was easy. And they're like, what did you, she's like, I had to take a high school. Yeah. I'm like, what? Speech was over, didn't I? Right, you know? So unless you, unless in those skills, unless you're on a speech and debate team, you don't get it. Yeah. So, you know, she was feeling pretty, full of herself, which was good. I was like, good for you. You deserve to feel that way about it because you took those skills that you got from here. And I tell my students that now. This is what I heard from someone who went to an Ivy League school. I swear, Ms. Bergen, I swear that looking back how you can connect dots more easily about your life outcomes and your life trajectory, I swear speech and debate is just like one of the biggest pillars in the bedrock of altering my life trajectory in a more positive direction. Even the days you and I butted heads. Even when we butted heads. Because that was you learning too. It was. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. You know, and I knew that going into teaching it. Yeah. And coaching it. I was like, I'm gonna butt heads with some of these kids. Yes. And I will tell you, I've had kids who are a lot smarter than me. Who had no common sense. So I tried to fill in that for them and said, you're on the right track. Here's the skills you need. Take that brain of yours and just run with it, you know? I don't care if you're smarter than me. I always know I should work with people who are smarter than me, they'll make me look good. Right? So, yeah. I love the way that something like a speech and debate like butterfly effects out like your thousands of students that you've had the chance to teach have now went on and you were giving so many other examples earlier. Just like teaching is so rich in that sense of like passing along really solid like students being able to come back and just be like, thank you so much. Well, like the letter to my parents. It was 20 some years later. Yeah, 20 years later. It's a long-term delayed, gratification don't even expect the letter but when they come it's like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The cool thing about content like this is that also we actually literally have people commenting on the videos and saying things like, wow, that was so interesting that that altered this thing for me in my towns and it's cool because you get like a faster feedback cycle but there could be something cool like a piece of content that lives on for a really long time and then impacts people down the line. Let's talk about the other styles as well. So there's Lincoln Douglas debate and public forum debate. So, Lincoln does is the only one that has a one on one. Right, Lincoln Douglas is one on one and it is more philosophical. So it's asking, ought we do this? You know, when in conflict, which one is the higher value? So you get the philosophers, you get value level debates, those kinds of things. And that just started in the early 80s. So that's in a lot of ways still in its infancy. We'll call that the toddler because public forum has only been around for about 10, 15-ish years. So it's an infant. It's a baby and it has changed because it was Ted Turner debates because he gave a bunch of money and sponsored it. And then, so it's had a couple of different names and even now they're talking about changing the layout of it and changing how much time for the different portions of it and those kinds of things. What do they want to do? What are the changes they want to make? Well, what's happening? So public forum, topic-wise, first of all, is something that's in the news now. So, I mean, open up a newspaper or listen to a new show, whatever, and if it's something that's a big thing, that's something that could be in there. We have more had those as well. I mean, one time it was the NBA dress code. And do they have a right to tell these people who are making millions of dollars how to dress? Well, the question is, do you work for me or don't you work for me? Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't go to work in my swimsuit and throw a pair of shorts on. Yeah, yeah. There are things that I know professionally I should be doing. So the question was, can you have your pants sag and all the metal on you and looking like you're a gangbanger and go out and do an interview when you're representing our team? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's those kinds of things. That's interesting. That one's a really kind of fun. That's a really interesting one, yeah. And just last year was the United States federal government should impose price controls on the pharmaceutical industry. And then a couple months prior to that was the United States should accede to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea without reservations. United States should abolish the capital gains tax. Spain should grant Catalonias independence. United States ought to replace electoral college with a direct national popular vote. The United States federal government should adopt a carbon tax. Standardized testing is beneficial to the K through 12 education system in the United States. So these are the kind of the topics. Right, and it's usually what's going on then. And that was changed every month. Yeah, every month. Every month. You're not getting as deep as you are with policy debate? Which is one topic for the year. For the entire year, right? And some of those kids go to camp in the summer and they start researching in June for tournaments who don't start until November. Yeah. So they're working. Lincoln Douglas changes every two months. So at South Dakota, they'll do two different topics. And public form then has four? Four or five, yeah. Four or five topics. Yep. Yeah, so. And public form is supposed to focus toward late judges. So anybody walking on the street, we should be able to pull them in and they should be able to judge it. And is that usually the judge? That is late. That is the goal. So you can literally get like a letter to your house. Mom and pop can come. Mom, pop can come. As I tell them, if we're a shorter judge, we're gonna go grab the custodian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he lives in society too and these are societal topics. Exactly, yeah. Interesting, yeah, should be geared more towards delay whereas maybe policy is geared more towards Congress style of like P.F. Thaw School. More trained judges. More trained judges, yeah. Right, right. They understand the style and they understand the different argument types and that kind of thing, yeah. Yeah, okay. And yeah, there's a difference. There's some differences in the style for Lake and Douglas and Public Forum versus policy, but highly recommend those that either are in the current educational system to please get involved in speech or debate or even those that are parents and listening, please get the children involved in speech or debate or if you are adults, find a way to get involved with speech and debate, please. Get your schools to support it. And get schools to support it, yeah. Yeah. Let's also talk about the relationship that you've had with source or with God or with the divine. What has been your relationship with that through your years? I grew up going to church and being a part of that and it still is very much a part of my life. I believe I don't have control in this world. And I look at my personal life and people are like, wow, you're 56 years old and you have a four year old. And I've gotten to the point now where I look at them and say, you know what, God called and I answered. I didn't think I was gonna have a child of my own. I, you know, life had my body had said no and everything else. In fact, my husband and I will have our 10th anniversary coming up here in November. So we have been together that long and we were already in our mid 40s when we met. So divine intervention, absolutely, absolutely. My daughter is an amazing human being and her birth mom was not in a position to take care of her in the way that she really wanted to. And so she made a very selfless decision. And when we met her, she said, I'm really happy having met you and you're the ones I want to raise her. And we had five weeks to prepare to have a baby in her house. And I got things from my mother like, you're too old. And I finally said to her, here's the deal. I didn't make this phone call. This phone call came to me. And I said, besides that guarantee me a 27 year old is going to be alive in 10 years. Guarantee me any of us are because there are no guarantees, you know? Accidents happen and health issues happen and we all deal with that. And it happens when it happens. And I mean, my mom's 83 years old and she's doing pretty darn good, you know? My dad's mom was almost 98 years old when she passed. My mom's dad was 92. I think I'm gonna be around a little while. I got good stuff going on both sides, you know? So if I take care of myself, my daughter's got that chance. And so I mean, to me, that's huge. And I guess my connection, my strongest connection with church has been music. I love the old hymns. I, you know, in fact, I sing them to my daughter and she said, what's that song? What's that song? Yeah. You know, and it's really brought me back because all the new hymnals, all of that, and they've taken out some of those really, songs that are really deeply meaningful to me. In fact, I have my grandmother's old hymn book and it's just the words. It's not even the, because it's the little ones they would carry to church and somebody would play and they just knew the words were there and they went. And so I flip your pages some nights and I'll just start singing to her. And it's gotten to the point where she sings with me and she wants to do that. So yeah, that's just been, and thankfully I met a man that believes as strongly as I do that this is, I mean, I joke about my modern day family. I got my husband on the internet and my daughter from a phone call. It happens, you know, it happens the way it's supposed to happen. I didn't have any power in that. I just said, hey, we'll check this out and see what happens. And that's where my life happened. You know, so yeah, I truly believe that. And I hope as I'm walking through my life as an educator and as just a human being and a mom that that is being reflected to other people, that that's who I am. That I believe that giving back and loving people for who they are and where they are and helping them to grow and become who they're gonna be. That's because I've got the power behind me, not because I'm doing it. So yeah. And I struggle because I have a niece right now that just, she's not believing and she's really having a hard time. And in fact, last spring, a classmate, friend of hers in the sixth grade committed suicide. And I found out that she was also contemplating. So that's been really hard because before I got married and before I lived, we were close to them and she was my girl. And I feel like I've let her down. So that was a hard one for me right now. So I made comments like she was watching my daughter the other day and I said, you know what? We don't have all the answers and we don't know. He said, but don't close your mind to it. Yeah. And I'm not gonna push it on her. I'm just gonna say that to her. It's an adventure. Yeah, it's like, don't close your mind to the possibility that that's true. And I used my daughter as an example to her. I said, she wouldn't be here if it wasn't. There's only so much you can do. So, but my students are like that too. I just, you gotta love them where they are. Yeah, and help them love themselves. And I probably say it every day in my classroom. I love all of you. I do not always like you, but I love all of you. What do you mean? I said, you just did something really dumb. I don't like that. I love you. You're a good guy. You're a good gal. You're a human being that I can handle being around. Would you stop doing the dumb stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know we have students who don't hear that at home. Yeah, I love you. Yeah. Absolutely not. Yeah, and that they have this beautiful gift that they can bring to the world. It's about finding what is that gift. Remembering what is that gift. Otherwise then those meaningless thoughts can take over. Does it feel like this is all a big creative expression of source or God of creation? What I do? Does everything feel like that? Does it feel like we're all bringing our gifts forth like paint strokes on the canvas? Yes and no. Because I think the people that don't have that spirituality, that don't have that belief, I think if that's not part of you, I don't think that comes through. Those people who are just like, yep, life is life and rocks, whatever. The people who truly have that, I think that it comes out. And that obviously that worries me for those people that don't. Do I think they still have possibility? Absolutely. I would never give up on anyone. There's just so much. I mean anything anyone of us does is a stroke, but which side is it coming from? Is it coming from the side of blessing or is it coming from the side of evil and force? Because those forces both live in the world. Yeah, purposely so. And we fight them every day. They make creation gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that the meaning of life, maximizing creativity, consciousness, maximizing experience. That's it, yeah. I guess being your best self and putting forth the best you can to make the whole better is really the thing. Because if I can put my best self forward and that then benefits you and benefits you, it's that butterfly effect, it really is. Any time I can give up myself, I'm getting back as much as I'm giving, if not more. And as long as I keep believing that, I mean I tell my students, I'm gonna learn from you as much as you're gonna learn from me. I don't sit in that classroom thinking I'm the only one that knows anything. Because I'm not. I have learned from anyone who's walked into my life. And that to me is the key. It's being open to that. Open to giving and open to receiving. Because the second you close yourself off, either direction, somebody's losing out whether you or the person with you. Yeah. So, yeah. Does it feel like the spirit comes to meet the body for school? I'm not sure what you're asking me. As in does it feel like spirit meets the body or does it feel like consciousness biologically emerges from the evolution? And then does it feel like this process is kind of like that spirit or consciousness coming for school on earth to bring certain gifts forth, have lessons, learning experiences, this type of thing? Yeah, I think anytime you open yourself up again to that giving to others, whether it's my knowledge that I give out when I'm teaching or I sit with a student who's struggling on a personal level or whatever. I had a young lady who came to me a few years ago and she said, I don't know what's going on. I'm just about six months clean and I'm about to get my six month medallion. And my dad and my brother, I'm questioning if they're still clean. And that's what I'm living with and that's what I'm dealing with. And it's a month till school's out. And she's gonna graduate. And I looked her straight in the eye and I said, what do you need from me? I said, you're 18 years old. You are gonna make this decision. I'm not gonna call in and say, hey, look, she's in a tough place. If you tell me you need a place to stay, I will help you find that place. And she referenced the whole conversation with you're one of the few people in this building I feel like I can talk to. So creating those relationships is as much of what I do every day as it is, telling them how to give a speech. Yes. Yes. And I've had those similar kind of conversations throughout my 27 years, I have. So then the idea would be then, there's the theory then would be like, would have your potentially, would have your spirits have literally voiced that prior to incarnating into these bodies and literally have decided that that discussion was going to have been had and that you were going to be really important rules in each other's lives and you didn't even know about it until that point in time. Oh yeah, I believe that there's so much that's predisposed. And we don't know it's coming. I mean, we're doing our thing and we're making the best choices and the best decisions and doing all of that. But there's still stuff that's gonna happen that it's like, oh, yeah, that was supposed to happen. My daughter was supposed to happen. My conversation with that young lady was supposed to happen. I mean, there's so many things in my life that I go, didn't see that coming, but there was. And it was important and it was valuable. What would you say about us being in a simulation? What do you mean? Like somebody's pulling all the cords and we're really puppets kind of thing? There's a lot of ways to put it on, maybe that on it. An alien species is testing out things on us? We've all, that we've potentially already went to the point of evolution to the most complex thing and then we basically embedded another source within. And so here we are just evolving as, you know. So do I believe I lived another life? Maybe it would be more like, do you believe that what is occurring right now is reality? What is reality? Is it, yeah. There are days when I question reality, don't we all? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do believe it's reality. Just in the nature of some things that happen, it's like, yet nobody could have planned that. Nobody could have thought of that, whether it's something somebody says, whether it's something somebody does. Right, I mean, this whole conversation, it's very organic. I don't think anybody planned out. You were gonna ask what I was gonna say, what, no, I think it's just happening in the moment. What do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world? My daughter, but just that whole evolution of life. You know, that cradle to the grave. And then that process just continues on and on and on. And my daughter's got my grandmother's name. Why? Because I just wanted to honor my grandmother. You know, I mean those kinds of things. And I think that that keeps those people alive in our memories and in our world. Because she was a huge part of my life. And I think we just do that. I mean, you look at so many people and a lot of those older names are coming back now. And it's very interesting. Because it's like, yep, that's a family name. Yep, I wanna keep that one going. Yep, I wanna, you know. With me it was not necessarily, oh, it's a family name. It was, it can't be a name that's when I've ever been on a student list. Because I don't want my child to have to live up to or live down something that someone who was a student of mine ever did. I want her to have her own future in her own, you know. And then look to those things. Because my husband and I laughed about that when we were coming up with names. Because the birth mom let us name her. And he starts rattling off all these names. And he was teaching at the time. And I said, will you please stop? I said, where are you getting these names? I was just thinking through my class list. I said, you have to stop. I've been teaching for 20 some years. And this got, no, not gonna happen. And he's like, what? He's only been teaching three, four years. He said, I have heard all these names. I can tell you who all these people are. In fact, I can tell you multiple people who were these, you know, because they've had the same name. So that was part of that whole process of coming up with a name and I'm collective to say, who is this child to us? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it was kind of fun. Multiple people with the same name. I can tell those five have had that name. Versus coming up with something so unique or also coming up with something that's in the familial lineage. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't going with Jennifer. Yeah. By the time I was a senior in high school, that was the most popular female baby name. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. There aren't very many of my age, but boy, there's a whole lot of them that are younger. And I got tired of hearing it, you know? So, yeah. I just wanted something that was special. Damn, unique. Get as unique of a name as possible. That doesn't mean you just spelled it funny. Get as unique of a name as possible. You don't need to put six Fs in a name. You don't need to put 12 Zs. You don't need to, no. No. Unique identity. And your name doesn't have to be North or South or East or West or Moon or... Those are a little bizarre, in my opinion. You know, Moodzappa. You're too old and you're too young to know that one. Frank Zappa. Yeah, Frank Zappa's kids were Moon and Dweezel or something. Moon and Dweezel's. Those are unique. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So. This has been so much fun. I know. Thank you, Ms. Brun. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I've had a huge class. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. It was good. It was a lot of fun. Yes. Crazy stuff I hadn't talked about for a while. Yeah. It's all your fault. Yeah, good to hear that. And also just so nice to unpack your journey and also nice to unpack just the importance of speech and debate. And I really hope that for all those that tuned in, we greatly appreciate you tuning in. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on that episode. Let us know what you're thinking. Have more conversations with your friends, families, coworkers, people online about speech and debate, about all this nuance that we unpacked about those two fields, as well as just bringing more nuance to our conversations around our world and the importance of funding the speech and debate that are happening within schools and organizations and popularizing that more for even adults and kids in our world. Let's get that happening, everyone. Check out Jennifer's links in the bio below. And also support the artists, the entrepreneurs, the spiritual leaders, the organizations around your communities that you believe in around the world. Support them and help them grow. Support simulation, our links are below. You can contribute to us on Patreon, cryptocurrency, PayPal or Design Cool Merch and get paid. All those options are below. And also go and build the future. Everyone, manifest your dreams into the world. We love you very much. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you soon. Peace.