 The next item of business is debate on motion 14521 in the name of Alison Harris on early years. May I ask those who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons now, and I call on Alison Harris to speak to and move the motion for up to eight minutes, please. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The Scottish Conservatives are pleased to bring this debate to Parliament today, and I'll start by moving the motion in my name. The motion addresses a very few serious points that have thus far been ignored by the Scottish Government. I'm hoping that we can reach cross-party agreement today and to send a signal to all the hardworking childcare partnerships throughout Scotland that their concerns will be addressed. Four years ago, the SNP pledged to almost double childcare provision from the 600 hours to the 11.40 a year by August 2020 for all three and four-year-olds and some eligible two-year-olds. Quite the headline, but one question lingered. How would this be achieved? It is clear that there has been a distinct lack of planning involved in following through on this promise, and it is left to continue at its current pace, then the 2020 target will not be met. In fact, the level of provision will likely decrease going forward. Almost half of the nurseries say that they are unlikely to meet the target of 11.40 hours, with many pointing to underfunding as a significant barrier to doing so. That has been echoed by Audit Scotland, who in their recent report on the expansion of childcare highlighted a staggering black hole of £160 million a year in the policy's funding. The motion focuses on one of the main reasons that the policy is failing. That is the lack of inclusion of the private sector, despite the constant assurances by the minister that they are valued partners. There are over 6,000 private childcare providers in Scotland. They play a huge part in developing Scotland's children, yet they are being swept aside. I have met several partnerships in local authorities, and one theme has been prevalent. There is a total lack of consistency and understanding in the roll-out of the 11.40-hours policy across local authorities. Those issues that are faced by private providers can be boiled down to three major problem areas. The revenue funding rates across local authorities, the catastrophic staffing drain and the lack of access to capital funding for private providers. As it stands, there is no standard hourly rate of funding across Scotland, meaning that private providers in some local authorities receive significantly less than those in other local authorities. Private providers are receiving varying rates across councils from £3.75 to £4.50 to £5.31, a material variation and a total lack of consistency. One thing that I would like to make clear here is that private sector nurseries are not big multinational co-operations. They are usually small independent organisations with very tight profit margins. When operating at such a level, the slightest change in external factors can lead to difficult business decisions that need to be made. This lack of top-line funding is preventing private nurseries from being able to pay many of their staff even the living wage. The impact of that is that local authorities are able to attract staff currently working in private nurseries to work for more money and fewer hours. That is a devastating impact on private providers, causing a mass exodus of their childcare staff, which will ultimately affect the delivery of high-quality childcare in the long run. That is the reason why the Scottish Conservatives will be supporting the amendment by Mary Fee, because the staffing problem is a huge thorn in the side of the feasibility of this policy in delivering good-quality childcare for children across Scotland. I now turn to the third and possibly the most avoidable problem facing private providers, the lack of access to capital funding. Capital funding is supposed to be available to all childcare providers, but many private providers that I have met have noted with frustration that local authorities are denying them access to funding and, instead, almost exclusively awarding it to their own council-run nurseries, without even considering private partnerships. Worse than that, there is confusion in several local authorities regarding whether or not private providers are entitled to receive capital funding. I spoke with representatives from one authority yesterday who were quite indignant at the idea of private providers expecting to receive capital funding, and another local authority who basically said, "'Oh, no, you're not entitled to that.'" This can be cleared up today, so I am asking the minister whether she will write to each and every local authority to make clear the correct position regarding access to capital funding. I am happy to give way now to the minister if she will confirm here that that is what she will do. I am more than happy to write and clarify the position. There is an issue around state aid in terms of local authorities providing capital funding direct to private businesses, but some one local authority in particular, Angus, has found a way around that and is providing capital grants funding. That is something that we are sharing throughout the country, through the partnership forum. If you would like me to write out to all the local authorities and explain that situation, I am more than happy to do so. Alison Harris. I thank the minister for that response. Yes, I would like you to do that straight away, please, because there is confusion. The fact that you are mentioning one local authority when there are numerous local authorities out there is indicative that the Government and indeed the SNP's indifference to the scale of the problem and the apparent inability to take on board what everyone is saying. Talk of partnership and engagement has been plenty, but those are warren words that are worryingly hollow. I worry that the lack of understanding of the true partnership that is required between local authorities and private providers is preventing any meaningful progress from ever being made. If they expansion is going to succeed, that needs to change and it needs to change now. Although there is obviously cross-party support for the 1140 hours target, I think that we have to take a sensible, practical approach to expanding childcare. In the current day and age, flexibility is the number one childcare concern for many parents. 90 per cent of council nurseries do not provide full working-day childcare places, and almost none of them offer places starting before 8 in the morning or lasting until after 4 past 5 in the evening. Unfortunately, this is just not adequate with parents and carers working outside of the available time windows. As it stands, many parents will be unable to access their full entitlement due to full-time work commitments. Often it is the private providers who are able to offer more flexible hours, but if the partnerships continues to break down, they will go out of business and that flexibility will actually disappear going forward. Presiding Officer, I am hoping that all parties in this chamber will support the motion and Labour's amendment today because we all want Scotland to have a successful childcare system. We are all behind the 1140 hours. However, unfortunately, since the big headline announcement four years ago, the Scottish Government's implementation has been poorly planned, staggeringly unclear and damaging to children, parents and nurseries throughout Scotland. From August 2020, all three and four-year-olds and eligible two-year-olds will be entitled to 1140 hours of high-quality early learning and childcare. Thousands of children in our most challenged communities are already benefiting from early phasing. This is a truly transformative programme that has the potential to improve children's outcomes and to make a significant contribution to closing the poverty-related attainment gap. Quality sits front and centre of our vision. Throughout this debate, we must remember that children are at the heart of this expansion. That should be a powerful motivation for us all to work collaboratively to overcome the challenges inherent in such an ambitious reform programme. We know that high-quality provision exists right across the public, private and third sectors. We know that provision can take many forms, including nurseries, forest kindergarten, playgroups, children and family centres, specialist voluntary settings, outdoor settings and child-minding services. Funding follows the child empowers parents to choose the provider that best meets the needs of their child. So long as that provider meets a new national standard and has a place available. Liz Smith. I thank the minister very much for taking the intervention. I totally accept the aims and ambitions of what the Scottish Government is saying. Will the minister recognise that there is one sector here that feels very disadvantaged in trying to promote the policy that the Scottish Government has set out for exactly the reasons that Alison Harris set out in her speech? It is that problem that we need to address, because unless we have a fully engaged private sector that feels very ambitious, we are not going to succeed. Mary Todd. Indeed. Let me reiterate again that it is this Government's view that the private sector will be absolutely crucial to our delivery of this ambition. I will update Parliament later this year on the final standard, which will be informed by the views of hundreds and hundreds of providers that we have engaged with during our joint consultation with COSLA. The standard level supply and field between local authority, private and third sector providers, all providers have to meet the same quality-driven criteria. There will be an end to locally set requirements to enter partnership and an end to the camping of funded places and private nurseries. The national standard delivers one of the most important elements of this expansion programme to ensure that all childcare staff delivering children's funded entitlement are paid the real living wage. This initiative, which will raise the incomes of thousands of low-paid workers, the vast majority of them, women, will ensure that we properly value the contribution that our early years professionals make to shaping the lives of our youngest children. All members in the chamber should welcome this investment. Daniel Johnson. I thank the minister for giving way. She rightly talks about the importance of standards and she rightly talks about the necessity of paying people the real living wage. When the NDNA is saying that per child per hour that their providers are in deficit to £2 per hour per child, how does that square? Are they wrong in their calculations or is there a funding gap? Marie Todd. The funding deal that we reached with COSLA in April secures the money required to ensure the delivery of the living wage commitment. The landmark £1 billion package, which is protected for investment in early learning and childcare, will deliver sustainable rates for all providers from 2020. The early rate paid to providers right across the country will increase significantly. It is worth putting on the record today that COSLA is fully behind a provider neutral approach, which puts quality first. However, both myself and Councillor Stephen McCabe, my counterpart in COSLA, recognise that more needs to be done to ensure that local cultures and systems fully realise our shared vision for a provider neutral quality first approach. I have to commend to the Parliament the partnership working principles adopted by COSLA's children and young people board in September. Those will be embedded in every single part of Scotland and will be developed in consultation with the NDNA. I have already heard that those principles are driving improved relationships around the country. We have established the ELC partnership forum. That brings providers from all sectors and their representative bodies together with local authorities, COSLA and the Scottish Government to work together to identify solutions to common challenges. It is early days. The forum met for the first time last week, but it is absolutely clear from the update that Councillor McCabe and I received at the ELC joint delivery board meeting this morning that a spirit of joint endeavour is already radiating from the forum. We have both committed to attend the forum if needed to help to resolve any significant issues that may arise. We will also ensure transparency in the reporting of local authority progress data reviewed by the joint delivery board this morning, so that local authorities are truly accountable for the local implementation of funding that follows the child. Yes, certainly. Liz Smith, back quickly. Thank you for that second take in the intervention. Could you just clarify, particularly in light of what some of her high-profile MSP colleagues in the SNP have said, the concern, however, is that far too many local authorities are not engaging with that partnership working. Does she agree with that? Mary Todd, again quickly, please. I would not agree that that is the case throughout the country. I will absolutely agree that there are pockets of really troublesome, difficult, challenging partnership relationship, but I would say that across the country there is actually a very positive party to be made, a positive position to report. We know that there is good practice out there. The partnership that I heard last week about action that has been taken in Angus, Edinburgh and Moray that result in meaningful partnership and providers feeling genuinely valued. Let me assure the providers who are currently experiencing strained relationships with their local authorities that meaningful partnership can exist, it does exist and Councillor McCabe and myself will work tirelessly to ensure that it exists in every single part of Scotland. This Government has absolutely determined that we will support providers in the transition 2020. We have already acted. We introduced the 100 per cent non-domestic rate relief for private properties and we estimate that that relief will remove the burden of rates from up to 500 businesses this year's programme. For government, it also commits us to delivering a significant package. I have to come to a close, please. We have heard providers' concerns about sustainability, about relationship difficulties, about workforce challenges and the need to communicate clearly with parents and families. These will all be addressed in our support package, which we will launch before Christmas. I call on the Parliament to recognise the commitment from the Scottish Government and from COSLA to work tirelessly to provide support to providers from all sectors. The Minister has just moved the amendment. Thank you very much. I now call on Mary Fee to speak to her and move amendment 14521.1. Five minutes, please, Ms Fee. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I begin by thanking Alison Harris for tabling this motion for debate today? Childcare is an important issue that impacts on the lives of thousands of families up and down the country every day. Scottish Labour believes that childcare should be flexible, affordable and of high quality. We support the extension of childcare provision to 1143 hours per year for all three and four-year-olds and vulnerable two-year-olds. The debate today provides us with an opportunity to assess how the expansion is being delivered and assess the working relationship between central government, local government and private nursery providers. The current childcare system is disjointed and inflexible. No one would design a system from scratch that would look like that today, and it is in urgent need of reform. However, the mix of childcare providers that we have today is essential to deliver the extension to 1140 hours. Private nursery providers fill a massive gap that council-run providers cannot meet, and that is why it is crucial that there are better working relations between Government and private providers. The Tory motion today recognises that and justifiably highlights the concerns of private nursery providers. Scottish Labour will be supporting the motion in Alison Harris' name today and urge support for our amendment, which adds to the motion to raise concerns about staffing to meet that expansion. I have twice asked the minister how many staff are in place now for that expansion. In both occasions, the minister could not answer. I would be happy to give way to the minister today if she would care to update the chamber on the exact number of staff in the system today. There are 34,500 staff working in early learning and childcare across Scotland, 25,500 of them working, providing funded placements. I thank the minister for that clarification. We know that 11,000 childcare workers are needed by 2020. Can the minister now tell us how close the Scottish Government is? I appreciate that the minister has updated us, and I would also appreciate it if the minister could keep us informed of how that progresses. Nursery providers, both private and public, need assurance that the right staffing resources will be available to deliver that policy. Private nurseries are telling us that staffing remains a significant problem for them, particularly around the competition of wages between private and public. One nursery owner has written to me to say, We appreciate the importance of paying the living wage. However, the current funding between council run and private nurseries is not on a level playing field. We also hear that after staff complete training provided by a private nursery, they often leave to work in a council run provider. The Scottish Government needs to ensure that a level playing field is on a level playing field. I wonder if we would accept that the Government, in the funding arrangements that we have agreed with local authorities, entirely addressed the issue about the rates that have to be paid to enable private providers to pay the living wage. That is part of the funding deal to deal with the expansion of early learning childcare and the implicit part of the payment that we have reached. Mary Fee. I thank the cabinet secretary for that very helpful contribution and the clarification. Confidence in the private sector in delivering the policy is plummeting. That is evidence in the freedom of information responses that have been requested by the Conservatives. The chief executive of the national day nurseries association has warned that our members are very concerned that the current situation with funded childcare in Scotland means that they will not even survive to the expansion in 2020. The area manager of the Kyrtun Home childcare chain in writing to the minister of children and young people has warned that the partner providers are literally on their knees and I believe that this ambitious policy is about to implode. The NDNA also reports that only 30 per cent of private nurseries are able to deliver the 1140 hours of free childcare. While we support the extension of childcare to deliver for children and families, the Scottish Government must own up to the problems that the policy faces and must get serious on delivering this policy in time. To repeat what I have already stated, the current childcare system is in urgent need of reform, a reform that is needed to benefit the mix of private and public providers, and most importantly of all for families and children. I move the amendment in my name. I call Tavish Scott to open for the Liberal Democrats. Thank you, Presiding Officer, caught me slightly unawares. I was looking to the green benches but there we are. I was actually going to start with Archie, who has gone through his pre-emptive years having depended totally on private sector childcare because his parents had both work, one of whom has a temerity to live in Shetland quite a lot of the time, although he did redeem himself this summer. I am told by taking him to Anfield for a pre-season game. The point is that the dependence we placed as parents on the private sector was complete. I want to reflect that in recognising the Government's ambitions over the delivery of and expansion of childcare in that it is something that parents absolutely want. However, their approach, as the front benches for both Labour and the Tories have rightly said this morning, does need to adapt and recognise the scale of challenges that exist in all parts of Scotland, not just in some but in all parts of Scotland. One childcare provider who is in the private sector, absolutely essential in delivering in this particular area, wrote to me as such, There is no doubt that private nurseries are the pru relation when it comes to an equitable distribution of the significant Government funding to support the expansion of early years funded hours. Private nurseries are going to be squeezed as cash for capital works to improve local authority settings and to upscale their existing workforce takes place. Again, reflecting remarks that have been made by colleagues on the other benches, the private sector will struggle, therefore, to retain their best staff due to the lure of a better paid council job. Private nurseries, therefore, in turn, face a double whammy of local authorities insisting that any support that they get is dependent on demonstrating that they are a living wage employer, while the early rate that they pay to partner providers is below the operating cost threshold of the business. I think that those are serious and significant concerns that do need to be ironed out by the Government as they take this matter forward if they don't. The concern is that the hours that are going to be offered in nursery places, the 9am to 3pm slot, is what we are talking about here. The 9am to 3pm slot suits, yes, some people, but most working mums and dads either may start before 9am in the morning and certainly finish after 3am in the afternoon. That is why the other parts of service here are going to have to pick up those points both before the start of what is broadly considered to be the normal working day and very much later into the evening as well. In my part of the world as well, there are a range of jobs that are way outside those hours anyway. I know more people who work starting at 7am and finishing at lunchtime and then at the other end of the day than I do who work the traditional hours of an office. That is essential in understanding and therefore designing a system that takes into account the challenges of the modern working world that we are in, whether you are a teacher, whether you are a fish processor, whether you are in the hospitality industry or whatever you happen to be in. I recognise that that is a huge challenge. I am not by no means of my diminishing or decrying the Government's effort to get this right, but I do think that the points that have been made already about tackling the challenge of that landscape that is the modern working world is essential in the redesign, or if that is too strong, but certainly in the reconsideration of what is currently not working. I take Mary Feast's points and the question that she was asking about the additional staff. There have been many Government's own figures on this to illustrate the depth of the problems there. One other point that I might finish with, Presiding Officer, is for Government to recognise what they are asking in this case of local government, but no doubt across the entire range of organisations that are providing childcare. Highland Council said just last month that in order to satisfy the Government that we are delivering this programme of change, they require of us planning, monitoring, tracking, data gathering and financial reporting, which is becoming more complex and detailed. I would ask the Government also in responding to this debate to recognise that there must be some happy balance somewhere between the necessity of auditing the use of public money and dealing with the range of reporting. I will happily give you, when I finish this point. I am sorry that the Cabinet Secretary will not be looking at intervention, but maybe in the closing remarks. In the range of reporting that is now being required, often of businesses that have very few people indeed. I apologise for not giving the member advance notice that he was about to be called there. There was no green speaker this afternoon. We are now going to fall into the open debate, Brian Whittle to be followed by Rona Mackay. I welcome the opportunity to contribute in today's debate, which I believe is potentially one of the most important and far-reaching pieces of legislation currently on the Scottish Government's books. 30 hours a week of free childcare should be a major tool in the drive to tackle health inequalities in that preventable health agenda. It is also an opportunity to help to finally tackle that stubborn attainment gap before it even starts to open. I think that the goal must be to get all of our children to school age on as level playing field as possible irrespective of background or personal circumstances. For the moment, it is also a huge boost to those who want to get back into work following the birth of their child. To start off, it is just to say that we in these benches are very supporters of the objectives of the Scottish Government in this piece of legislation. To achieve those laudable objectives and create that prerequisite number of quality childcare places will require partnership working between local authorities and private nursery providers. I know that the minister has examples of where the attitude and approach from local councils is collaborative and reflects the way in which the Scottish Government has set out its delivery plan. However, minister, the picture across the country of councils' relationship and treatment of partnership nursery care in many cases is far from this ideal. I met a number of partnership nursery owners last week from across Scotland and they have serious concerns as to their treatment and the sustainability within this scheme. I do not have time to raise all their concerns, but here are some of the things they told me. The report of one council balloting. Balloting for 20 per cent of the places that should be available for partnership nursery places. No successful in the ballot get 1,140 hours of free childcare at a rate of £5.31 per hour. Those unsuccessful, 80 per cent of those who should be eligible get 600 hours of free childcare at a rate of £3.43 an hour. I am pretty sure that is not what this policy was intended. I will be asked. Clare Adamson. Would the member recognise that we are in the pilot stage of the delivery and that some of the mechanisms used that might not have been ideal, but it is 2020 when we want to be delivering this out of the whole of the area? There was never going to be a situation where all nurses would be able to do the 1140 at this stage in the pilot. Recognise that there has been lessons learned from that, too. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I thank you for your intervention. I think that the people you need to speak to are the people that are in the gallery there that actually brought this to my attention. 2020 is going to be too late and I do not think that balloting for places is the way forward. We have councillors that are supplying 38 weeks of a year, having audacity to ask the private providers to deliver on holiday cover. Not only is that grossly insulting, it most definitely does not have the child's wellbeing at the centre of the policy. We have one councillor allocating all SIMDs one to four places to the local authority, with SIMDs five and six going to private nurseries. Where is the parental choice in that? Why are we forcing those SIMDs one to four children out of partnership nurseries that are already settled in? That councillor is taking out choice away and actually labelling children. I listened to stories of local authorities who have openly stated that they do not believe in partnership nursery childcare and they have no intention of working with them at all. They are going to take all of their childcare in-house. Nurseries who have delivered decades of top quality care who have become an integral part of their community. Every nursery representative highlighted the issue of local authorities recruiting directly from the partnership nurseries into their local authority nurseries. They are losing so many of their highly trained staff and qualified staff that the care inspectorate are now downgrading them because of an increase in staff turnover. There are huge discrepancies between what the SNP Government and the minister has asked local authorities to deliver and what they are delivering. There are local authorities who are consulting and treating partnership nurseries as a crucial part of scaling up childcare in Scotland. However, as I have tried to highlight today, there are a significant number who are treating them in anything but partners. I ask the minister if she will meet with the partnership nurseries represented today in the gallery and listen to their concerns directly because the SNP Government must get this right. Aspiration is not enough without a proper plan and a continued audit of its implementation. I encourage all members to stick to four minutes if they can. Rona Mackayde is followed by Daniel Johnson. There is no doubt that there is cross-party support for the transformation of free childcare to 1140 hours. No-one can argue that giving children the best quality early years education is a bad thing. The Scottish Government is delivering on its promise with a £1 billion multi-year funding package. This is an amazing commitment to children and families in Scotland and it heralds a new future for family life. Of course, a project of this size and complexity will not be playing sailing during the planning stages and I do not think that anyone would reasonably expect it to be. So there is presently a disconnect between some private care providers and some local authorities as the Government amendment recognises and as I have witnessed in my constituency. It is good that we are having this debate in the chamber today. However, I do not believe that there has been a lack of engagement from the Scottish Government, as it says in the Conservative motion, but the problem lies with how some local authorities are choosing to implement the roll-out. I have been visiting as many nurseries, both private and local authorities in my constituency as I can this year and I have been approached by private providers and childminders about the 1140 roll-out. I have also met with Eastern Bartshire Council to relay those concerns and to gain clarification on how their plans are progressing. Presiding Officer, the passion and care from early years workers in all sectors that I have witnessed during my visits is amazing and I cannot praise them highly enough. On Monday, the education committee hosted an early years forum in Rutherglen, which included private early years providers, local authority nursery workers and officers from across section of authorities. What we heard there was that local authorities have individual ways of approaching the roll-out as one size does not fit all, depending on the needs of the area. However, by its nature, it does muddy the waters regarding planning and implementation. We heard from private providers that communication and partnership working is far from perfect with one of the worst defenders being North Lanarkshire, although they were not alone. North Lanarkshire has, we were told, not consulted the private sector as equal partners and used the capital expenditure money for building new nurseries, contrary to Scottish Government guidelines that state clearly that councils need to look at how they maximise their own provision through their nurseries, how partners can expand to meet the demand of 1140 hours and only then look to build new nurseries. I was pleased to hear the minister say that she would clarify this in an earlier answer. I also did hear the incident that Brian Whittle mentioned about the Scottish Multiple Index of Deprivation and children being... families being dictated to, if you like. Presiding Officer, if that is correct, it goes against all the principles of parental choice and flexibility, which is one of the great strengths of the Scottish Government's commitment to this transformational policy. I find that quite shocking, and I would welcome the minister's comments when closing on whether local authorities are being scrutinised by the Government and how they are implementing the roll-out and how the money has been spent. We did hear from private providers that, while happy to pay the living wage, they have funding allocation concerns, which is leading to an exodus of trained staff moving to local authorities and that childminders have in some areas been sidelined despite being a major part of the blended model of childcare that should be offered to parents. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, it is impossible to address all these issues in a four-minute speech, but I believe that the Government will work with local authorities to address these problems and make this hugely important initiative work. We will learn from good practice such as has been happening in Angus, Morrie and Edinburgh, and failure is not an option here. We need to show that we are listening and will act on the concerns being raised without delay. The bottom line is that this transformational policy will bring phenomenal benefits and huge opportunities for children and families throughout Scotland. By working together, I am confident that we can and will make it happen. I am not sure whether I should begin my remarks by making a declaration of interest where people can take it as read from the food stains on my suit that I picked up a three-year-old this morning to take her to her funded place. The reality is that I am only too aware of just how important quality childcare is. I truly believe that that is something that should be made available to everyone, regardless of where they live or whether or not they can afford it. That is why this commitment is important. That is why this debate is important, because we are a mere matter of months away from the point that this target that the Scottish Government has set is supposed to be met. The reality is that, as Alison Harris pointed out in her introductory remarks, this is not important just because it is a Government target or a Government commitment, because doing that in the wrong way has the very real possibility of making things worse, of removing provision. That is why this debate is important. I thank Daniel Johnson for taking his intervention. He agreed with me that one of the downsides of getting this wrong will be taking childcare away from the zero-to-three-year-old. Daniel Johnson. I thank the member for that intervention. I think that that is exactly right, because you only have to look at the reality of the 600 hours to realise the consequences and the things that nurseries have to do to make that work, to realise why this is a problem. If you talk to nurseries and you talk about the reality of the 600 hours, the first thing they will say to you is this, do not call them free hours. They are funded hours. The reality of the 600 hours is that nurseries are having to top up. They are having to find ways of cross-subsidising that provision. That is the reality of the £2 deficit per hour per child that the NDNA has identified. As Brian Whittle pointed out, the reality is that as you increase to 1140 hours, if those places are insufficiently funded, with that wiggle room removed, you are undermining those nurseries' ability to operate at all, because it is a much greater proportion of the hours and their ability to cross-subsidise is reduced. That is just a fundamental point on operation. We also need to look and be realistic about what parents need. Parents need up to 2,000 hours a year. They need 8 to 6 provision and they need that flexibility so that they can work. That is why, fundamentally, partnership providers are needed, because that flexibility is just not there within local authority provision. Within the local authority sector, only 68 per cent of that provision currently provides only half days. Less than half of local authorities can provide lunch. In total, less than 3 per cent of local authorities right now can provide full-time, year-round, not just within school term, but year-round childcare. That is not the fault of those providers. That is because that is based on a model about supplementing schools. However, what we are needing is holistic, flexible childcare. That is why we need partnership providers. The findings from the NDNA that 46 per cent of brides are not going to offer 1140 hours. That only 7 per cent could provide 1140 hours on the basis of current funding and those that are looking at providing 53 per cent will need top-ups in order supplement. Surely that should sound alarm bells by the insufficiency of the funding that is being talked about. While that funding may be increased on current levels, it is simply not enough to make up the £2 an hour per child deficit. The consequences and the implications of that is that the Scottish Government has a mere matter of months to get this right. A mere matter of months to build the buildings that need built, to train the people that need to be trained and fundamentally to get a funding package right on 1140 hours can be extended and does not end up removing childcare provision and capacity rather than increasing it. Gordon MacDonald to be followed by Rachel Hamilton. The policy of improving early learning and childcare by moving from early years provision of 600 hours to 1,140 hours is ambitious and challenging. There is a need to increase the number of qualified staff, increase building capacity and ensure that either local authorities, private nurseries or childminders will deliver the number of places required. As a member of the education committee like Rona Mackay, I attended rather Glen town hall this week, but I took part in the focus groups discussing the introduction of the 1140 hours of funded childcare by August 2020. We discussed the issues of local authority representatives, private nursery providers and childminders. The major concern they all raised related to staff retention. We are in a transition period as we move towards full implementation. Therefore, not all providers have moved over to the 1140 hours provision and that is causing problems. As providers move over to the new contract, their hourly rate increases. In Edinburgh, providers on 600-hour contracts received £3.80 from August of this year, but those on 1140 contracts are in receipt of £5.31 per hour. The result is that providers on the new contract are able to offer higher salaries, making it difficult for those on the 600-hours contract to retain their staff. I have only got four minutes. I am aware that the Scottish funding council in 2018-19 had a further increase in the number of childcare training places delivering 1500 additional places on HNC courses and over 400 additional graduate level places. However, the staff retention problem will remain until enough newly trained staff are in place and all providers are on the 1140-hour contract. In relation to building capacity, we have heard that many local authorities are examining how they use their existing nursery school estate and whether they can better utilise the building in order that they can open from 8 am to 6 pm in Edinburgh thanks to a capital grant from the Scottish Government of £40 million. The council has an expansion plan that will see many of the school nursery provisions refurbished or rebuilt including Dean Park, Canalview and Covenstone in my constituency that will undergo refurbishment and Nethercurry in St Mark's that will have new-build nurseries in 2019-20. Of course, private nurseries in Edinburgh's who plan to move over to the new contract can budget for a substantial increase in funding and with 100 per cent rates relief for day nurseries in place and the possibility of receiving a capital grant businesses are able to put together a business plan to grow their own nursery provision. Since August 2017 25 council-run nurseries in Edinburgh have been providing 1,140 hours of early years childcare and in phase 2 from August 2018 38 local authority nurseries will offer up to 2,520 places that represents nearly a quarter of the 11,000 three-and-four-year-olds and eligible two-year-olds who currently receive 600 hours of funded childcare who are now already on the 30-week provision 30-hour a week provision Yes, there are issues that we need to address but we should remember that the primary aim of this policy is to improve outcomes for all children and to close the attainment gap and to support parents back into work training our study that in the long term will help family budgets I'm sure that the policy intention is something that we can all support and we need all to work together to ensure that we can deliver it for all of Scotland's children Thank you, I call Rachel Hamilton to be followed by Joan McAlpine Thank you, Presiding Officer We all want our children to have the best start in life and this could not be more important than the ability and choice of childcare Can I use this opportunity to welcome the private providers to the gallery today? The Scottish Government has expanded the number of entitled hours of childcare over the years, which has been a positive and welcome step to help more parents return to work However, we know that the latest expansion attempt has been severely hampered by the poor planning and lack of preparation for the roll-out from this Government Audit Scotland warned back in February this year that there will be significant risks to the expansion If we do not address and discuss these issues as we are today they will continue to rumble on in the background severely damaging the viability of and sustainability of private childcare providers I want to use the short time that I have to concentrate on a couple of issues and problems that are being faced by the private providers They are having to compete often and fairly with the state sector Some of the problems also include engagement with local authorities across Scotland, not just only in my constituency a lack of access to the capital funding as we have heard from Alison Harris funding uncertainty and increased competition from public nurseries who should be complimenting not inhibiting the existing private providers We need private nurseries to survive and thrive to deliver this expansion not to shut their doors because they cannot compete This is about choice for parents who use the best quality care setting for their child The example that I want to give was actually about a private provider who was concerned that they had to make a staff member redundant this week due to losing three children in the nursery I was told the reason the children left is because they are registered with school nursery from January the term after their third birthdays and if school nurseries have places then they let the children start as close to their third birthday as we can The crux is that we won't be paid by the council for those places until the January or the April depending on when their birthday falls In this situation those children were due to leave in January and it's not feasible to fund them from the business in the way the school will until January and as they were leaving in January it's not feasible to fund them from the business until January and as they were leaving anyway to give them three hours just doesn't make sense but the nursery will have planned for them leaving in January and what's happened is that they've been poached for an early start at school nursery and it leads to a shortfall in expected funds and so sadly a staff member has lost their job On this point I would like to hear in summing up from the minister the response to the lack of flexibility for partnership providers and fairness of choice for parents we hear constant assurances from the minister that the private sector is valued partner but evidence suggests that they are not Another problem that private providers are facing and I quote is a lack of consistency over hourly rates and the hub school at Churnside for example is charging £3.20 per hour for wrap around in their nursery which is open for 50 weeks a year The plan is for there to be a hub school nursery in every town with a high school so for us we'll be competing with the local schools from August 2019 for year round children If they're charging £3.20 per hour for their wrap around verses our £4.70 per hour and many private nurseries by the way are charging over £5 then it looks like we can't compete with that level of undercutting On this point clarity and consistency is needed and again if the Scottish Government are to be believed they value the role of private providers perhaps listening to their concerns and acting upon them would be very helpful Lastly on the problems that they're facing staff retention is proving to be increasingly large problem and we've heard examples of that today so I won't go into those specifically However Presiding Officer this simply cannot continue Scottish Conservatives want early learning and childcare to be a true partnership between local authorities and the private sector and I urge all members across the chamber to support our motion without question this is an untenable scenario and must be addressed urgently Thank you, I called Jim McAlpine and then we'll go to Ian Gray's first closing speeches Thank you Presiding Officer I think that what the chamber needs is a little positivity we shouldn't forget that the SNP Government's commitment to double the number of hours of free nursery education is the most ambitious expansion of funded early learning and childcare that this country has ever seen bar none doubling provision is a huge investment in terms of social infrastructure as well as bricks and mortar and by 2021, as we've heard the annual revenue investment in early years will be almost a billion pounds of phenomenal sum and by that time 11,000 workers will have been employed additional workers that is I am aware of the concerns that some in the private and third sector have expressed indeed I've heard them at first hand in my constituency one excellent example in my own area is sparklers nursery in Gretna and Annan an excellent facility that has won several awards including for staff development and which offers everything that a local authority can offer including in additionally the wraparound care that we've heard about before, the flexibility now I know that providers like sparklers have raised in the past with me that they weren't involved in the planning of services and they were frustrated that councils were expanding their own provision in areas where good quality private sector providers already operated and I sympathise not least because these businesses were founded and built up by female entrepreneurs and that's why I really welcome the assurances by the minister today that she has been listening to these providers and that the agreement reached in April just at the early stage and that there's a roll-out of more money and that their concerns will be taken on board and it's very clear that the Government's track record here shows that they like me have been responding to the concerns listening and responding not least in the 100 per cent rates relief that's been expanded to the private sector providers and also the funding follows the child model that seeks to give parents a choice a range of high quality providers including child minders which is very important in my area because many villages don't have a nursery so it provides the kind of flexibility that we need in rural areas no I don't have time I'm sorry the Government has listened to the concerns of the national day nurseries association and importantly is acting in those concerns we've heard and then DNA asked for a better funding rate and the Government has reached this agreement with COSLA which, among other things, will enable all childcare workers to be paid the Scottish living wage at least by 2020 and I also want to make mention of the deposit guarantee scheme which particularly helps the private sector and third sector providers that we're discussing today thousands of parents no longer have to pay expensive up-front childcare deposits in Edinburgh, Glasgow and in Freeson Galloway will cover that cost for eligible families until December 2019 and almost half of parents in the private areas with a child under 2 taking up childcare for the first time can benefit from that I welcome also the establishment of the ELC partnership forum which will promote co-operation between local authorities and partner providers and that's also been welcomed but I wanted to finish by saying this time and again in this chamber the Government is urged to work in partnership with local authorities and respect democratic local decision making and I would say that in my experience and also from what I've heard in the chamber today that many of the difficulties outlined by private and third sector providers are related to decisions made at council level not by the Government and you can't on the one hand tell the Government that they should respect local democracy and then simultaneously demand that Government blunder bus councils who don't do as they're told I think that the Government has offered constructive ways that encourage everyone to work in partnership for the delivery of our ambitious early years commitment and I hope that people take the Government's lead in that and do work in partnership and collaborate together for the good of Scotland's children because that at the end of the day this is all about. Thank you very much. We move to closing speeches. The first from Ian Gray for the Labour Party. Thanks very much, Presiding Officer. I suppose this is one of those afternoons where the Eagle Observer might think that perhaps we've managed to construct an argument out of something that we all agree on because many speakers have said and made the point that we do agree that they've moved to 1140 hours as a very welcome one but the disagreement lies around in the measures that have been taken and the measures that the Government are taking to deliver this policy and there is serious and significant evidence to fuel those concerns. Firstly, we have very strong evidence of the concerns from those critical partner providers the private nursery sector we also have the report from Audit Scotland earlier this year but we also have the experience of the previous policy commitment of 600 funded hours and we know that even although that policy has been in place for many years now that there are still many families who actually find it quite difficult to access their entitlement, fair funding for kids, the campaign have told us for months and years now of the lack of flexibility in the sector something like half of all nurseries private or council providing only half days 90% of council nurseries only providing provision and term time 19 local authority areas where no council nursery opens from 8 to 6 at all cross-border problems for those who want to place their children in a different authority from the one they live in all of those problems still remain in the previous policy and that's why some of those who are involved in providing childcare lack confidence in the new policy being brought forward properly and in time and the minister was very strong in her commitment to this policy being about closing the attainment gap and helping to address poverty and that's very welcome but it is the case in the current 600 funded hours less than half of those vulnerable 2-year-olds who have an entitlement have actually been able to take that it is those very children that the current policy has failed Audit Scotland comments on all of that in our report but they also make clear that they do not believe that the 1140 policy is going to be delivered in time they say that planning started too late that there is a difference of view in the finances that are available and although the report came out before the agreement with COSLA which Audit Scotland gave to the committee did take account of that and they also say that they cannot see how the 11,000 additional workers in the workforce are going to be found and they take account of the measures which the Government have introduced the additional apprenticeship places and so on but they still can't see how that's going to work but the strongest concerns and this has dominated the short debate of those partner providers funding shortfalls the pressure of paying the national living wage and I heard Mr Swinney make the point that the agreement means that there should be enough funding for the funded hours to allow them to pay the living wage but at the moment only 3% of private nursery providers are accredited living wage employers and they have a very, very long way to go and they are not I don't have time, I'm sorry they are not convinced that they will in fact be able to do this and that's why 2 thirds of them are saying they want to engage with the 1140 funded hours at all that's a serious position and I know that the minister says it's been sorted I know that she says that a spirit of joint endeavour is radiating from the early years forum minister those partner providers are not feeling bathed in the warmth of that spirit of joint endeavour they are seriously concerned and we need to hear from you what more you are going to do to convince them this is going to work thank you and I call the minister Marie Todd to conclude for the Government thank you the debate today has largely been focused on governance and in closing the reassurance that my colleagues seek we have the right and robust governance mechanisms in place we've established a joint delivery board which is councillor Stephen McCabe and myself co-chair it also has representatives on it from Addis, from Solace and from directors of finance so the people seeking data to assure ourselves that this is being delivered are not the Scottish Government it is very much a joint endeavour the board met earlier today in Greenock where we discussed the first set of progress data received from the local authorities and we had an update on the meeting in the partnership forum the board monitors workforce uptake capacity and infrastructure and I'm pleased to report that all are largely on target we can identify where there are challenges and we are ensuring that action to address those challenges quickly I want to assure the chamber that we're also monitoring quality we are determined to ensure that quality is maintained during this expansion we plan to publish this information regularly to ensure that there's transparency over how the expansion is progressing starting with the first data set in the next few weeks we heard a report from the partnership forum today and it reaffirmed our commitment to attend if required we will work tirelessly to ensure that the pockets of excellent practice become standard right across Scotland let me reassure you that we haven't handpicked quiet wall flowers for the partnership forum there was really good representation there from right across Scotland and from different sectors and I heard there was very robust challenge from many of the partner providers there but it was an overwhelmingly positive meeting the passion and the commitment that all of the parties feel for this expansion was palpable as was the sense of everyone working together to the same end I understand that there are private providers with concerns about their role in the expansion in some areas and I hope I have provided reassurance in this regard our provider neutral approach is very clear that we value the role that private providers currently play now and will play in the future and we know that there is more that can be done to improve engagement and involvement in the roll-out of our expansion plans I thank the minister for taking intervention and I appreciate her commitment to this programme but can you say to the partnership nurseries that are behind me they have said to me that the partnership nurseries are better than that collaborative working as equal partners Minister I assure you that the local authorities currently, private providers and childminders together provide 24 per cent of the provision and in 2021-22 local authorities expect them to also provide 24 per cent of the provision I am hearing what members are saying about what is going on in their communities and in relation to particular situations I want to reassure that I have listened I want to reassure you that my door is open I am very happy to meet with any member to discuss particular issues or concerns about providers and particularly I want to hear about parents and children's experiences and while I accept that not everything is perfect in our roll-out programme not everything is bad either I want to acknowledge that there is progress and what we are doing is already making a difference between communities and families up and down the land Certainly Michelle Ballantyn Can I ask you then if you are saying very keenly that you want parents to be able to have choices that money should follow them as well can I ask then about the right to have your childcare, your free hours outside of the area you live in because I have been contacted by a number of constituents who want childcare where they work not where they live I assure you that that is not going to be a problem in the future there will be absolutely no barrier to an out-of-area placement because as I have explained many times in this chamber the only requirement for a parent is that the funded partner is meeting the national quality standard and has a place available The Government remains absolutely committed to this most ambitious expansion of early learning childcare in the UK and we have fully funded it I want to assure you that we are making good progress At the meeting today I was really really pleased to hear from the data returns from local authorities which is data that they are collecting anyway it's no extra work for them to collect it that more than a thousand two-year-olds right across the country are now already at the moment receiving more than 600 hours of funded entitlement I am delighted that the uptake for eligible twos is exceeding our forecast at this stage because of our policy decision to ensure that children who need it most benefit from this policy first the first phase of the expansion was always going to involve local authority nurseries largely because they are the very nurseries which operate in areas of high deprivation but I can assure you we remain committed to the private or neutral approach We are making really good progress on our plans to transform early learning in childcare for this and future generations of Scottish families I acknowledge there's more we can do and I will ensure that we deliver on our aspirations and commitment Thank you Liz Smith to conclude the debate Thank you Can I begin my speech by agreeing wholeheartedly with what Liz Smith said I thought he was setting out the context of the problem that we face I can also say to the minister that I entirely accept your ambitions of what it is that you're trying to deliver and the efforts that you are making to make that happen but I think this debate is not just about the promises it is about ensuring that we can put in place the ways in which we're going to deliver the policies that we all aspire to and it isn't very much in case that we have to make sure that we are complementing both sectors in the way that they provide the childcare that we need if we are to fulfil the policies because it is so important minister that we listen that we listen very carefully to the concerns that the private sector have set out they were listed by my colleague I thought Rona Mackay made a very good speech in terms of flagging up some of the concerns that she has heard in her own constituency we know that Alex Neil and Kate Forbes we even heard Joan McAllpine today echoing some of the concerns that have been put about by the Conservatives this afternoon this is a very important debate in feeling that we can empower these people within the private sector to allow us to deliver the policy requirements unlike any effective policy that anything that the Government undertakes there has to be a solid basis of evidence in front of us and as Rachel Hamilton set out and both Tavish Scott and Mary Fee referred to this we cannot ignore what was said by Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission we simply cannot ignore it because it was a very stark message that has to happen if we are to fulfil the policy and I think it was Daniel Johnson who mentioned about the concerns that because of the 600 hours policy that we've actually not been able to move on significantly from that in a way that satisfies people that we have the confidence of parents and the ability of the private sector to be able to engage with that this is not just a debate about the number of hours this is a debate about the flexibility it is about parental choice and it is about ensuring that people within the private sector can engage with that that's what it's all about and at the moment the private sector is telling us that they do not feel that confidence they don't have that ability to be able to take on board a lot of the things that they would like to do to ensure that so many of our children have that additional support so I think that is something that we can't just talk about this we've actually got to do something and as I say it's not just about the extra number of hours it's not just about the financial commitment this is about the flexibility and the structure within the whole system because if we don't do something about that then I think we are in danger of not being able to carry forward what we want can I just finish my remarks on the fact that there are some examples there are some good examples of local authorities working on a partnership deal but I have to say minister the evidence shows that they are few and far between and if we are going to be able to ensure that all local authorities have this partnership funding in the way that we would like I'm afraid we are going to have to ensure that we take some drastic action to make that happen because in some cases the private sector now that is just not acceptable in terms of being able to deliver the number of places and I take on board minister your determination to try to do something about this but it is about clarifying I think I can't cabinet secretary on this occasion minister it is about being able to clarify the advice that you are giving to local authorities because as Alison Hallis rightly said we have got too many local authorities who are not actually abiding by the policy and therefore that is letting down many of the people in the private sector I'm aware of the time this is an exceptionally important debate we have no problems about the Scottish Government's ambition what we do have a problem with and I think many of the SNP have a problem as well is about exactly how we deliver it and we have to take on board the concerns that we're hearing for many people in that private sector and that concludes our debate on the early years the next item of business is consideration of business motion 14535 in the name of Graeme Dey on behalf of the bureau setting up a business programme I would call on Graeme Dey on behalf of the bureau to move the motion move, Presiding Officer no one wishes to speak on this I call on Graeme Dey to respond the question is that motion 14535 be agreed are we agreed thank you we are agreed the next item of business is consideration of business motion 14536 in the name of Graeme Dey on behalf of the bureau on a stage 1 timetable for a bill does anyone wish to speak against the motion no one does can I call on Graeme Dey to move the motion move, Presiding Officer thank you, the question is that motion 14536 be agreed are we all agreed we are agreed the next item is consideration of business motion 14537 and 14556 on designation of a lead committee and 14538 on office of the clerk move, Presiding Officer thank you very much those questions will come at decision time and we are coming to that now so the first question is that amendment 14520.4 in the name of Paul Wheelhouse which seeks to amend motion 14520 in the name of Jamie Greene on Scotland's ferry services be agreed are we all agreed we are not agreed the result of the vote on amendment 14520.4 in the name of Paul Wheelhouse is yes 61 no 62 there were no abstentions the amendment is therefore not agreed the next question is that amendment 14520.3 in the name of Colin Smyth which seeks to amend the motion 14520 on Scotland's ferry services be agreed are we all agreed we are not agreed the result of the vote on amendment 14520.3 in the name of Colin Smyth is yes 62 no 61 there were no abstentions the amendment is therefore agreed and the next question is that motion 14520 in the name of Jamie Greene are we all agreed we are not agreed the result of the vote on motion 14520 in the name of Jamie Greene as amended is yes 62 no 62 there were no abstentions and as Parliament has been unable to reach agreement on this I'll use my casting vote against the motion therefore the motion will not be carried the fourth question is that amendment 14521.2 in the name of Marie Todd which seeks to amend motion 14521 in the name of Alison Harrison early years be agreed are we all agreed are we agreed no we're not agreed we'll move to our vote members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on amendment 14521.2 in the name of Marie Todd is yes 62 no 62 there were no abstentions and therefore the Parliament has not reached agreement again and in this case I cast my vote against the amendment the amendment is not carried the fifth question is that amendment 14521.1 in the name of Marie Fee which seeks to amend the motion in the name of Alison Harris be agreed are we all agreed yes we are all agreed that is carried the next question is that motion 14521 in the name of Alison Harris as amended be agreed we're not agreed we'll move to our vote members may cast their votes now the result of the vote on motion 14521 in the name of Alison Harris as amended is yes 62 no 62 there were no abstentions again Parliament has not agreed a position and I will use my casting vote against the motion so the motion is not carried the seventh question I propose putting all three business motions as a single question no objects good the question is that motions 14537 14538 and 14556 in the name of Graham Day in behalf of the Bureau be agreed are we all agreed we are agreed that concludes decision time we'll move now to members business it's in the name of Joan McAlpine on restoring the Caledonian pinewood forest and we'll just take a few moments for members and the minister to changes