 episode of In the Studio. Today is Barbara Duchel. Thank you so much for coming in, Barbara. She has a PhD from Harvard University and was a teaching fellow there. She was also an instructor at Ohio State University. And then she continued her career as a lecturer in English, specializing in writing, theater, and poetry at CSU Baker's Field. Sorry. And now teaches as a volunteer for the UC Davis Extension OLLI program. She lives in Davis, where she can spend time with her children and grandchildren. Again, welcome for being here. My pleasure. So I'd like to explore some of the similarities that I see between the way women were victimized in Greek theater and women today. And especially in light of the Me Too movement as being the latest example of women coming forward and telling us about their history of being abused and sexual harassed by men, especially men in power, so that we can better understand the similarities and the constants over the centuries of the way men looked at women as inferior and therefore tried in every way to restrict their freedoms by signing laws that forbid them from voting or they couldn't own property and so on and so forth. And these laws are still in existence in many countries of the world. It didn't start that way, though. In a pre-revolutionary society, there was an agrarian society and so men were superior because they were stronger and women were restricted by the fact that they had children and they had to take care of children. And children in those days were the highest, most important contribution that men and women gave to the world. However, things changed and now we have today also this concept that women should be harassed, intimidated. So in order to better understand this, I wanted to explore an example of two in Greek tragedies especially, which is your field of study, on how they were treated and also how they reacted to it. It's a long question. Well, we're talking about plays, Greek plays, that were written 2,500 years ago. So of course the world was quite different back in those days, but a similar situation existed then where women were definitely considered the inferior of the two sexes. I'll just read a short passage from Euripides that just gives an example. This comes from Hippolytus. Now this is a rather extreme example of the way women were regarded, but it's not too far off the mark. So a character, a male character in the play Hippolytus says, women, why Lord Zeus did you put them in the world? We have a proof how great a curse is woman, for the father who begets her, rears her up, must add a dowry gift to pack her off to another's house. So they were definitely looked upon as inferior, perhaps a burden to the men that had to deal with them. And in the plays, because they were not in any kind of position of power, they didn't have the status, the political power, the physical power. They definitely were subordinate to the men in their world. But the three great playwrights of the 5th century BC, Escalus, Sophocles, and Euripides, wrote plays showing how women were not these weak doormat creatures. I like doormat creatures. Yeah, they were not. Towards the men who victimized them, they often took a very severe and bloody revenge. And that was the way they asserted whatever power they could muster for themselves. Very interesting. For example, in Escalus, the earliest of the Greek playwrights, his play Agamemnon, Clytemnestra is the wife of King Agamemnon. Yes. And she gets even with her husband, who did a very bad thing in killing their daughter. He did it in order to gain favorable wins to take the Greek fleet to Troy, but he had a reason for doing it. He didn't want to do it, but he did it. However horrible. Yes, he did it. And she was, of course, extremely upset about that. And also the fact that he brought back with him from Troy a concubine that she was expected to take in to the palace. So she was annoyed, to put it mildly, with her husband for various reasons. And she plotted revenge and actually murdered him. So he certainly got his comeuppance in that place. She was not this weak woman who would do whatever a male told her to do. Please, the male. Yes. And it's very interesting because it shows that the women had character, strength, and thought for themselves, I suppose. So that's a revelation. And this again was so many centuries ago. Exactly. Yes. They were kind of looked upon as many women today are looked upon as the weaker sex. Yes. And all the characteristics of strength and virtue and intelligence were attributed to men. And there are comments throughout the place like this, my lady, you speak graciously like a prudent man. So if they ever do anything good, they're compared. Wow, that's almost like what a man would do. So they're constantly subjected to that kind of attitude from their fellows. But they don't take it lying down and they wind up getting even with the men who have victimized them. Another famous example is Medea. Oh, yes, Medea. Yes. Euripides play Medea. Yes. And Jason. Could you remind us in the summary, a quick summary of the thing? She gave up everything to help her husband, Jason, get the golden fleece and helped him escape from the place where he stole it. That was something that he had to do. Yes. And she went with him and bore him children and was madly in love with him. And they get to this place in Corinth, where he abandons her and takes up with the princess in Corinth to better his position in life. So he leaves this woman who has done everything for him. So she plots a horrible revenge upon Jason by, which was, by giving his bride to be a bridal gift that when she put it on, burst into flames and killed her. So that was one of the ways. So she was, she, the princess was killed. Yes, indeed. And Jason was heartbroken. And she even did a more horrible thing than that by killing hers and Jason's children just to make him even more miserable. She said it was to spare them a life where she could not protect them because their father would be marrying a strange person who they would have children and her own children would be in a position of jeopardy. So she did give that reason. But there seems to be another hint that she was doing it as further punishment of Jason. So you did not want to mess around with these women in the ancient Greek times. And it's interesting, and it's interesting because these obviously this play was written by men. And so was it a fear of women in a way? It's very interesting how they presented their characters as strong women, women who were not going to take being victimized lying down. It is. They were going to find a way to do something about that. And perhaps the reason was, in actual life in the fifth century, the plays dated back many, many centuries before the time they were written. Yes. Women did not have much power in ancient Greece. And perhaps these playwrights were promoting the idea that women should have more power. This is so interesting. It's a very interesting interpretation. And to come back to the Mitu movement now, I'm sure I'm not an expert, but I'm sure there were other movements prior to the Mitu movements that show the strong will of women to come out and be vilified in many ways just to show how men behave. Now, what do you think of this Mitu movement in terms of, will it lead to a better rapport between men and women? I really believe it's absolutely ridiculous that women have been put in positions of inferiority or lack of power. I mean, we're half the population and we're certainly as able and intelligent. More than half. Yes. So I mean, that women for so many years, I mean, dating back, we're talking about 500 BC with the Greeks and still now, 2,500 years later, women have to fight for their place in society is absolutely ridiculous, I think. So good for these women with the Mitu movement for finally doing something. To be fair, sexual harassment and intimidation sometimes comes from women as well towards women and towards men, but it's not as common. Exactly. Could I interrupt for a minute? Please. Because there is a play that Euripides wrote 2,500 years ago. Yes. Where the woman is the victimizer. The man that she victimizes was perfectly innocent. All he did was spurn her romantic advances, but she got even with him and caused him to be killed. And could you remind us who this horrible woman was? Her name is Phaedra and she she comes in the play Hippolytus. Yes. By Euripides. Yes. And why do you think she did that? Well, she had told this young man how she felt about him and he spurned her advances and she was afraid that he would tell her husband about what she had done. So in order to forestall that she wrote a letter to her husband who was the king saying that this young man who happened to be his stepson. Yes. Hippolytus. No. Hippolytus. Hippolytus. Yes. Had raped her. Oh. Total lie. Of course. But her husband believed her and caused the death of his own stepson as a result of that. So she certainly was the victimizer in that case. Yes. Hippolytus was a bit of a prig by the way. Yes. He was not a totally sympathetic character, but nevertheless he didn't do anything so bad to warrant. To warrant his head being cut off or whatever they did in those days. Exactly. But to go a bit beyond that, do you think these plays were also allegorical in some ways of human nature and... Well, later on people could interpret and broaden their message to apply to all kind of current events, right? Yes. Yes. But I think for the Greeks they were actual historical records of legends that the Greeks believed were true. Yes. Well, that's so interesting. Now, we don't have very much time. It went so fast because I enjoyed this so thoroughly. But to come back to the modern days and to how we have evolved, do you think that women will continue to progress in their participation and their respect in front of society? We have very little time. So maybe you can give us one or two thoughts about that. Are you an optimist, in other words? Oh, yes. You are. I definitely am. I think I'm with Martin Luther King Jr., who said the curve of justice is slow, but it eventually gets to where it needs to be or something like that. And I really believe women have taken this first big step, and I don't see any backsliding from that. So I think we'll just continue to move forward just the way the students now are taking the reins for getting rid of the guns. Well, this is a wonderful closing to our interview. Thank you so much, Barbara. It's a pleasure. Barbara Duchel, your availability and you talking about your expertise is wonderful. And I'm very grateful that you are available to be with us in the studio. And for all of you who are watching, thank you so much. And from all of us here at Davis Media Access, goodbye and see you next time.