 Oshun state chapter of the PDP and APC, straight words over mining revenue. And INEG won politicians and their supporters against bullying hate speech during campaign. And this is plus politics. My name is Nyam Gul Aghaji. The war words between the People's Democratic Party and the all-progressive Congress over an alleged non-remittance of the revenue due to Oshun state through the mining sector has continued with the PDP accusing the opposition party in the state of partnering with the mining company to deny the state its revenue. Earlier, the APC in a statement by its acting chairman, Tajuddin Lawal, had berated the state governor Senator Demolah Deleke over his claim that 13 percent derivation on revenue from mining was not remitted to the previous administrations. The statement read that there are credible reports on how the mining companies regularly settle top officials in the past administration. While joining us to discuss this is Tunji Abdul Hamid, a legal practitioner. Good evening, Tunji, and welcome to the program. Good evening, Aghaji. How are you? It's my pleasure to be here. Okay. It's a pleasure to have you join us. Well, this trading of words between the APC and the PDP, the major parties in that state of Oshun, I don't know, okay. Maybe they are reverting now to Oshun state, no longer state of Oshun, but the trading of words between these parties is worrisome. What are the laws regarding mining and the revenues that are supposed to accrue to the state? Well, when you talk about mining in Nigeria, under our constitution, it's under exclusive list. In other words, it's in that category of natural resources that is considered to be under the control of the federal government, in other words, the only federal government can make law on it, and it's like in the same class with the oil, in other words, in the state wherever you have oil, those in the state are the owner, can only be owned by the federal government and those in the state, the state can only get derivative from the federal government. So mining under the law is under the exclusive list, and that which means is within the powers of the federal government to make a law on it. So any policy, any law that has to do with mining will have to come from the federal government. So and whatever money that will accrue from it is to the federal government. What the state will get is all called the elevation, which has been said in 2017 or so, 19, to be 13% to the federal government. I'm not even aware that it's covered by law, I think that that 13% is a policy, a government policy to say, look, let's encourage states who are active in mining participation. I think that is the position regarding that one. So it's within the ambit of the federal government to make law and to collect revenue from that particular natural resources in the state. Okay, apart from this derivation that we're talking about, 13% has been there on the front burner for a long time and it was only paid by this administration to all the states, especially like the oil producing states, they had their money paid to them in full and that's what is causing commotion right now within the oil producing states and all that. But the accusation here from these two parties is that the money that is supposed to come from mining to the state is not getting to the state. So the PDP is now saying that some companies and people high up in government, in the previous government, were just having an understanding and they were paying this money to them directly and not coming to the state. Are you telling me that apart from the 13% derivation, there's no other form of money that should have come to the state being that they own these natural resources in their own states? Legally speaking or strictly speaking, they don't have any other revenue apart from those locally generated revenue. In other words, in terms of reality and also other things that can be generated from the company as contribution to the state, in other words, it's not as severe, it's by law that they are able to generate revenue from those miners apart from in terms of mining itself. Other aspects of the mining, they may be asking for 13 teams, they're not mining itself. They may be asking that those miners will be able to do things to ensure that the community where they work are taking care of so some things that have been destroyed are put in proper places. But talking about the generation of revenue from the mining itself is only the government that can ask for a fund in that regard. They only need to give a percentage to the state. So probably what is confusing here is maybe it will likely be the adjective used by the PDP government that is in power now. Maybe what they are saying is that from the record they have, there is no traces or there is nothing to show that the money generated from the mining or the revenue collected from the government is in the account of the state government. Probably the use of adjective to see that look, the state did not collect money from the federal, did not give them the 13% derivative, it may be wrong. The proper adjective to see that look, the money paid by the government for the mining is not, there is no record to show that this money is in our account. And probably like say, where in Nigeria, it may be true that some people or individuals are just collecting the money on their own as a personal thing and don't take it in that regard. Because you know, you remember in San Fadah, we said is that they have a gold and they are mining it and they are taking the money, they are spending the money on their own without even developing anything from it. So as far as I'm concerned, probably what is issued here is the use of adjective by the PDP and not probably because they are making a wrong allegation here in terms of the product because if you say the electricity, the former government did not say money were collected and this money were in their accounts. If they said the money were collected and it's an account to be a different story, but they were just saying that look, we don't collect money. It's only development that gives us money. Why are you giving any money or not? Why are you giving any money? If you are giving money, can you show where the money is at in that case? So that's the thing I think they should be talking about. And you see, the problem we have in this country is that where a government is going and that one is coming in, there is no compression because they don't do, they don't be able to see that they are working in the interest of the people. You will recall that the former government that is led by a governor, I forgot his name now, they immediately passed a governor for some stations. We were told that there was no any transition to collaborate and to discuss and recognize the records on grant. And this is why we are hearing all this because if that had been done, probably all this thing would have been explained and then it would have been able to achieve whatever they want to achieve here. Because there's no record now. So what I expect the APC, the former government is to just to explain to them, look, the money collected from the federal government as a remedy for this money are in social place, these are the money, they have been used for this, they have been used for that, or they are somewhere here, I expect that to, they are fleeing to the gallery by talking about adjectives, by talking about the words, the adjectives used by the government in asking for that money. You see, we don't have, we need to demand for accountability in this country because that's part of the corruption. There will be, it's not that of place to realize as well that certain people are collecting the money individually, it's an allegation for now or it is proving. So what I expect the current government to do is to set up that committee, do it proper investigation and then ensure that people who are complete, are capable in this regard are taken to court and so that that's where they know what is right. Or people are asked questions and so that they will be able to trace where the monies are and then the only, the issue of money is not there or is there, will not be, will not be, will not be. I expect this current government to hand over to them and tell them social amount of money have been directed for mining and this is where they have and this is what they have been used for. But the current government is saying, look, we have no traces regarding where these monies are. So it means the money have been collected and nobody has been accounted, it was not accounted for by the past government. That is my own understanding of what is happening here. Yeah, but I'm getting confused because when we heard about the 13% derivation fund that was paid, it was paid to oil producing states. And as we know, the natural resources that are in Oshun state are granite, columbite, talc, tantalite, and tomelein. I don't see this one as natural resources that the federal government has put its eyes as it is on and they are mining and getting revenue that they can share with the states. If I'm wrong, maybe you correct me there. You just alluded to the fact that Zamfara has gold and they're mining it and they don't even give to the federal government. Is it not possible that this is the same thing that is happening here and the federal government has not really come into that industry in the state and the money that is being made is just made by the state itself and nobody is seeing this money. And probably the fact that the government is not putting eyes in it or it's not doing its job in terms of ensuring that this money coming from this, the natural resources are given to the federal government doesn't make it right. By law, I've said it earlier that mining is under the exclusive list, which means it's only the federal government that make law on it. So what I'm saying is that, look, by our law, whatever is beneath the land below is owned by the federal government. And that's why you see oil are being controlled by the federal government. So if you see anything beneath the plants, if you dig anything and they are under the plant, they are owned by the federal government. And so when things are under the control of the federal government, the federal government will be the one to collect money from it. And that's why mining is one of them that is under the control of the federal government in terms of our law. So by law, it is on the exclusive list. And the federal government is the one that deals with mining in terms of a policy and law. So as far as I'm concerned, whether they have been living up to their responsibility in terms of ensuring that money generated from this natural resources are given to the federal government does not make it right when you are asking questions regarding how, where the money are. So if the money have been taken from that area and it's not been reputed to the federal government, that is an abnormality as far as I'm concerned under the law. Because the state government has no power to control whatever that generated from the money. Otherwise, those who own oil can also say, look, since these people are mining their things here and they are taking the money for themselves, we all equally will be taking our money and then we won't allow the federal government to take it. And I think that is what the issue is. So there is no confusion here. Mining is under the control of the federal government. So whether there's money coming from there to any purse, maybe even the PDP doesn't have the right to ask the state government because it should have been the federal government that should have done the collection of whatever revenue that is supposed to come from that whatever kind of mining they are doing in a shunt state. Am I right? You are right in a way. But the question being asked is that they were saying that money was paid to the state in time for mining. And they are asking, where is this money? Where did they put it? Because according to them, there is no any trace as to where the money is. So the question is, where is the money? But should there be a trace because it's not even their responsibility to collect the money. So if money is being collected, is that not illegal? No, the federal government collects the entire money. They will now give the state 13% from the money generated. So if they are not telling us that, look, no money was generated. That's a different question. But what we have been told here is that monies who have been generated and 13% who have been given, I'm coaching them on the water. I'm not saying that is the correct position. So if that is the case, what they are saying that is assumed that money have been generated and 13% have been paid to the state. But there is no traces as to where the monies were in the account. So the past government need to come and do some escalation as to where these monies are or whether or not no money was paid to them. And if no money was paid to them, they now have to take that case to the federal government to ask, look, so so so things were done in this area and so so things have been done. Where is the money? So I think that is the property. They are actually asking questions from the facts. Let me quote what the statement said, a part of what the statement said. It said, we are not surprised as there are credible reports on how the mining companies regularly settle top officials of the APC and its government. When the people's governor now exposes the nest of corruption, the state APC cannot disguise to manifest in its complicity. Now, this means that they're not even talking about the money that may have come from the federal government. They're talking about money that comes directly from whichever company is mining in Oshul state to the coffers of chief tains of the APC. That's their grouse. They're not even talking about the 13% derivation whether it came to the state or not. But this is what they're talking about. And my question was simply that, yeah, okay. You understand now where I was coming from. No, no, ask for a question. Ask for a question. Ask for a question. Yes, I was asking that if this money they're talking about is not what should have gone to the federal government and officially the federal government releases it to the state that has these natural resources. Is it not that maybe this understanding is not something that even the PDP should try to find out what is happening? Because it's not, first of all, it is not right. Like you said, no matter what is going on, it is illegal that it's going on. So how can the PDP ask for something that is not even a formal thing that was done? Do they even have that right? No, what we are saying is that money has been generated and the money has been paid. 30% have been paid. They didn't even talk about the 30%. That's their own allegation. That's their own allegation. But the APC is saying that look, they don't know what they are saying. Because the issue of money is within the federal government ambition and so it's all within our power. So the issue here is that it's for the past government to come and do some explanation to them. So look, we have not collected any money from these people. Why have you not collected money? The federal government has not paid us anything since this thing happened. In other words, those who have been mining it, are mining without even the, because I know for you to be able to mine, you must have license from the federal government. So if you have a license, I am mining and no money is being remitted to the federal government. Somebody is fishing somewhere. So it damage the allegation that some people are collecting the money personally. It may be right. You get my point. The point is that look, these money analysis also to go through what you call the federal government, they are the owner of the money and they are supposed to pay the state 13% from money generated because they give license to those who mine. So if you give me, you can't mine with that. I said you are saying they are mining illegally. If you don't have license to mine and they are mining, then maybe that's why federal government is not aware and that's why it's not getting money or anything. These are the kind of thing we are saying that let's block all the loopholes where the monies are going from. Some people are making money personally in this area. That's why you are not hearing anything. So in this case, this was supposed to be the federal government. If truly, these people are licensed and more money is being given to the federal government and that is not asking questions. It shows that some people are under the collecting money from it, which means the allegation may be right. They may have used the wrong adjective in terms of how they are claiming it. But the point is that the question is who is collecting this revenue from these people? Is it the federal government? Is it individual from the state? Let's know all these issues. We need to bring these out so that people will know and this so that, because once we don't punish people for crying, it will continue and that's why we are having corruption continue in these issues. So this question needs to be asked. There must be accountability. There must be record of whether or not money is paid or money is not paid or whether or not money is collected or money is not collected. So if there's no money collected from anybody, they will say, no, federal government, why have you not collected your money? Because these people have been working for years and they've been mining for years and they are supposed to remit certain amount to you and you're supposed to give 13% to the state where are these money? So those questions need to be asked. So whether or not they are collecting the environment is not putting its eyes on it. It shows that some people individual are collecting the money on behalf of the federal government and putting it in their own personal pockets. But what are the things we're moving right? The mining was done legally or not and money is changing hands. Are there no other avenues that could be used to checkmate these people, to find out, to audit these people that have left government? Now the two groups that have major groups in a state are fighting dirty in the outside, like in the marketplace. What could have been done to show more civility, to show that there is a system put in place so that things like this, if they do happen, this is how we expose them. Instead of just saying we have credible information, credible information from where, we don't know. How are you fighting with this credible information? We don't know. They're just talking on the papers. What other way could they have used to bring out the truth about what is going on in Oshun state? The only way to explain this into Rose is to tell her that we, from the handling of the documents, give it to Rose. We cannot find this, we cannot find that. Unfortunately, we are not sure whether or not that ANDUVA was properly done. I'm not sure, I'm not aware whether or not any document was handed over to them to explain the state of things as to when they entered the government and as to when they are going out. Because there was an information, if you've got the ANDUVA, that there was no issue, there was no Transitional Committee set up. From, why you say Transitional Committee? That means from both sides, the incoming governor and the outgoing governor, we have people who come together, look at the state of things, they're spending their food to themselves and then ask questions as to what has happened. I'm not sure this happened. So the issue is that, so until we let those who are the outgoing government learn to ensure that things are done properly by way of ANDUVA to the incoming governor, we continue to hear this because when you do ANDUVA properly to me, I will be, that means I will be looking, fishing for all this information. So what I expect them to do now is to call people in OUVA in those categories, in OUVA in charge at that time to ask them proper questions regarding what to do. I think this is being done now. So what we need to do is to ask questions. But that is not the proper way. The proper way is if the ANDUVA has been done properly, these things will have been explained. And if it's not explained, question will be asked, why is this people not contained in your reports? Why is this not part of your reports to us? Or what is happening here? So as it is now, the PDP also need to come out and tell us where they get this critical information from. Who get this? Is it from the records? Is it from individuals? Who are these individuals? Have you questioned them? Where did they get the critical information from? Or is it from the company itself? If it's from the company, can they point out who are who are collecting this money? Because the more people they are paying to. So these are the issues we need to, these are the way we need to work, what the things that must be done. Everything must be transparent. We need to do things clearly. Otherwise, we will continue to be in this matter. When you are going out as an ask-going government and dover properly, throw the incoming government so that the issue of, I don't see this, I don't see that, it will be documented, whatever you have added about to that. And whatever you say is, whatever they are not clear about, they call you to ask you questions. Come and answer it. It's a sign to the state. You are not, what you are doing is not, you are not trying to play politics here. You, what you are doing is in the interest of the state. And if the state are not enjoying what you are doing in the name of a politics, then you are not, you are not serving people. The people should be in one or more interest, not about you and showing that, no, the incoming governor will not understand and will not be able to achieve his results. Yes, in this regard. This, what I see here is politics. People don't want any other, the successive government, the government that is searching them, it's not when they are not in the same party, from the same party to succeed. So that they will have a opportunity to also say, we want to come back or some other thing. So you need to say, look, we are all working for the state. We are all at our work, whether I am from the PDP or I'm from the APC, what we are fighting for is in the interest of the state. So whatever that would benefit the state, should be in our interest, should be on the paramount in our mind and not politics. And what I see here is politics. So we can get results by way of asking more questions from the outgoing government. They need to come and ask some questions. They need to ask, they need to dig into it. I say, look, who are those collecting this money? Are their money being paid? Are there no money being paid? If money are not being paid, then you have to move to different government and say, look, why are these people not paying when they have license from you? Or what is happening? Or are they being given to us to pay freely? Or what is the issue? So we need to work in line with our law in this country otherwise we'll continue to be where we are. Okay, thank you very much. We need to ask the right questions and get the right answers. We ask the right people for the right explanations that we need so that we can move forward. I'd like to thank you, Tunji, for coming on the show and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you so much for being a part of the program. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Okay, we've been talking with Tunji Abdul Hamid, a legal practitioner who we're talking about what the world was in Oshun state was all about. Mining and the revenue are cruel to the state that the incoming or the present government is saying that they're seeing nothing that should have come from the mining industry to the coffers of the state government. And the people who were there before the present administration are saying that they once complaining, no, not what they are saying. Well, we've heard from Tunji Abdul Hamid. We'll take a short break now and when we return, we're going to be talking about something else. Stay with us.