 I think we might have lost Matt's phone connection. Matt, can you hear us? About now. Can you hear me now? Yep. Yep. I'll start recording now. Great. Thank you. Sorry about that. This conference will now be recorded. Welcome to the South Burlington Development Review Board meeting for December 1st, 2020. My name is Matt Coda. I'm the chair of the South Burlington DRB. With me tonight is Alyssa Portman, Don Fillebert, Jim Langen, John Wilking, Mark Baer, Brian Sullivan, also an attendance from the city of South Burlington is Marla Keane, our development review planner, and Delilah Hall, our zoning administrator. Item one on the agenda is additions, deletions, or changes in the order of agenda items. Is there anything staff or members of the DRB would like to change or add or delete? Matt, I would note that in case anyone is coming for this, item number five, the applicant is withdrawn their application. So that's the application for SD 2035 of TPG architecture. Application is withdrawn. So we won't be hearing that tonight. Okay. Thank you for that. Appreciate that. Hearing nothing else, I would go to agenda item number two, which is announcements. I just make a quick announcement. Thank you for those in attendance, those on the phone, those watching online. Anyone who wishes to participate in this hearing should sign the virtual sign-in sheet. You can do that a couple different ways. If you're on a laptop or a computer or tablet, you can use the chat box that's in the right hand corner and type in your name. You can also, if you can't locate it or you're just on the phone, you should send an email to mkeane at sburl.com, M-K-E-E-N-E at sburl.com. That's our development review planner, Marlekeen. Send her your contact information and it's necessary to do this to sign in in order to be considered a participant. Should you want to obtain party status in order to appeal the decision made by this board? Similar to when we meet in person, the public will have an opportunity to comment on any agenda item, either over the phone or through the GoToMeeting application using the chat box or the audio video function. You can always submit comments and writing and send them to Marlekeen as well and they'll get out to the rest of the board where we'll have a chance to read them. So, are there any other announcements from staff or board members? Yes, Matt. I'd like to make an announcement. This is Marle. Sure, go ahead. Go ahead, Marle. So, in the interest of sharing good news where good news is available, last night the city held a joint committee meeting to review the next phase of the O'Brien development. This is the phase that was considered in the sketch plan application SD 2010 and predominantly included the east side of Old Farm Road, 100 acres of residential, mixed residential, commercial, and mixed industrial, commercial zoning. Committees in attendance included the National Resources and Conservation Committee, the Recreation Parks Committee, BikePed Committee, and the Energy Committee. So, the committees received a presentation from the applicant, asked a bunch of really great questions, really took advantage of their expertise. They're going to review the project in more detail at their upcoming individual meetings, provide feedback to the applicant, and then they'll also be providing feedback to the board at the time that the board reviews the application coming up in the next couple of months. That's great. Thank you for letting us know, Marle. It's excellent that all of our volunteer committees are engaged and working in a time where we have to be socially distant from each other. So, thanks for that, Marle. It's great to hear. Are there any other announcements? Hearing none, I would go to Agenda 9-3, which is comments and questions, just for the public, any of the agenda items tonight. If you do have a public comment, now is your chance to make it. You can do it a couple different ways. One is by entering your name in the chat box and letting us know that you have a public comment, or simply saying your name out loud, and I will take them in the order that I hear them, and you'll just get three minutes to speak. So, are there any comments from the public? Please say your name or write in the chat box. I'm going to check the chat box right now, and I don't see anyone that wants to make a public comment, just some people signing in the virtual sign-in sheet. That's great. And not hearing anyone that wants to make a public comment, then I would go ahead to Agenda Item Number 4. Agenda Item Number 4 is Continued Inflammary Final Plot Application. Continued Inflammary Final Plot Application, FD 2037 of 99 Switch Street Associates LLC to create a planned unit development of two locks at 99 Switch Street and 105 Switch Street and construct a three-story, 600-square-foot, 20-unit, mixed-gray residential building and associated side improvements on the lot at 105 Switch Street. Who is here for the applicant? I am Dave Marshall. Hi, Dave. How are you? I'm well. Thank you. Anyone else with you, Dave? We have Bob Duncan. Hey, Bob. Hi, Steve Terrell. Dan Morsey. Sorry, I didn't... I saw Ian Morsey. Who was the one in between before, Ian? Steve Terrell. Hi, Steve. And is Sam with us tonight, Bob? Yep, I'm here. There we are. I see you now. Sam Beal. You're not. Oh, and Cynthia Knopf is here too. Oh, my fault. Yep. Okay. Now, I think all of you have been sworn in before tonight, but I'm not 100% sure. Is anyone making their first appearance on this for the applicant? I think so. No, okay. So you're all sworn in and we'll continue. So as we left it, Dave, we talked about the trees and landscaping, water, and entrances. So you've had a chance to look at the packet. And I understand there's some supplemental materials. Where do you want to start? Oh, well... Sorry. Can I ask that we start with the entrance just because Holly is here for that? Yes. Yes. Thank you. My mistake. Yes. Let's start with the entrance because we want to be cognizant of our hardworking city staff. And she might have some thoughts that we'd like to hear at the beginning. So, okay. So describe the entrance just to catch us up to speed, Dave, where, what we're dealing with in terms of the two entrances and the applicant's proposal. And we can discuss some of the choices that we have to make. Very good. So Delilah, if I can gain your assistance starting in the northwest corner of the property, just off of Swiss Street is the existing curb cut off of Feral Park Road, we'll call it. And that particular entrance has been there for about 30 years now. And it basically provides both access and egress from 99 Swiss Street. So 99 Swiss Street is the existing commercial building. There we go. And then just to highlight that, again, Delilah, the continued access into Feral Park heads to the south and then swings out into the parking lot. And that's where anybody in a vehicle or walking into the park would be coming along that particular entry. So in this particular case, this particular project creates the opportunity to better control access out onto Swiss Street under today's conditions. If we go back to the existing entry, the, unfortunately, this plan doesn't extend far enough to the left or to the west. But just off the sheet is the Feral Drive Swiss Street intersection. And if we've all been through there during AM and PM peaks, we know that that particular area does queue up certainly fairly well. And with regard to anybody egressing the 99 Swiss Street property, it's been through either luck or the goodwill of somebody that's in queue at times, certain times of the day to be able to easily or to get out of the property. And in this particular case, access into the property typically has not been an issue. But with this particular project, the proposal to create a new curb cut kind of in the middle of two properties, the left or west side being the commercial property and the right side or east side being for the multifamily residential. In this particular case, what it does is basically gives people the opportunity to enter Swiss Street further away from the Feral Drive intersection. So we thought that was very beneficial to at least minimize conflicts during queuing periods. The traffic report indicated that this was a preferred egress location and thought we thought we're doing pretty well there. Now the applicant did follow the guidance of the traffic study in which it was recommended that the existing curb cut out onto Feral Park Drive be converted from two way into one way in only. And what this would do was basically preclude people from creating the conflict or the delayed access out into Swiss Street from that historical curb cut. So that being the background, that's what the applicant has shown. The last time we had this discussion, the point was made that for one of the things the applicant did early on was actually meet with the fire marshal and the guidance from the fire marshal at that time was that they preferred and wanted to keep that particular existing curb cut to improve circulation and access to the property under emergency situations. So we followed that guidance. That's the same information we shared with the board previously which had been reviewed by Terry Francis as far as being an accurate representation of the meeting. So we proceeded in good faith with that particular aspect and have received some pushback with regard to that particular approach. Things that were identified in the most recent staff record indicated that further discussions with Fire Chief or I'm not sure if it's Fire Marshal or the Fire Chief but nonetheless the Fire Chief as identified in the staff report did indicate that one option would be to perhaps neck down that particular existing curb cut so that it would create less temptation for humans to actually break the rules and go through the signage that indicates that it's a do not exit access wide. So things that we are willing to do is actually to create a mountable curb in the northern half of that access so that the natural way of somebody wanting to leave here would require that they go over a mountable curb to get out to Swiss Street. Well when we're talking about filling all of that in what we're interested in doing is just filling in the north half with a mountable curb and still allowing access in because we haven't heard any evidence yet that the access into the property is problematic. So that's why we want to basically try to maintain the circulation pattern the historical one that's always occupied this particular part of the property so that we don't create a dead end situation for that particular tray of parking. So at this point in time we're comfortable with that it's more than we originally thought we would end up having to do but with where we thought we were after the last meeting and with additional comments from staff we feel that well actually that particular as it's being drawn right now we would actually move that to the north side of that opening. So if you can pick that up and move it to the north then that would work great. So what we're trying to do here is create an obstruction, yes. I'm sorry I'm just a mountable curb is that like a speed table? Yeah it's going to be probably something that it's going to be a two or three inch vertical rise really is up to the fire chief. We've worked with them in the past on other mountable areas and they kind of want to limit how high these particular bumps are to minimize the damage on their equipment but at the same time we also want to make sure it's high enough to basically create a pretty good speed bump for people to say I'm not going that way I'm just going to go the easy way which is to the middle curb cut to Swiss. Okay thank you for clarifying. So what you're saying is your suggestion is to put that in but to dissuade people from going in or out of that existing entrance? No actually it's just out so we will just I want to carry forward yes the traffic consultants recommendation that in order to maintain good circulation on the property that we still have one way access in but we would create this obstruction for those people that otherwise would want to flaunt and ignore the do not exit signs and the pavement markings and go that way but at the same time by making that mountable it still represents a viable way for access for the fire department or other emergency services and property. Okay so let's put a pin in that right now and Holly are you there can you hear me? Yeah I'm here Matt and I can hear you and thanks Dave for that example and explanation. So I would just say from my vantage point the detail of chaos in that corner is pretty significant so we've got some breakdowns in bike and ped connectivity I know we can't kind of scroll south on the map but right past there is the lower section of there's a you know a runoff treatment and then past there is the dog park and there's a lot of activity that comes in and out of that section there is a pathway that goes right past the dog park and then it just kind of ends so optimally it would be great to be able to provide connection and I thought maybe one of the opportunities would be if we didn't have access coming from there that we might be able to provide that connection I'm not sure that it's going to really make that much of a significant difference if you just have entry there I think yeah so that's yeah so that's the line you can see the two cars right under where that line was just drawn and then it just kind of stops so it would you know one thing to consider is is there a potential to create that safe connection for both pedestrians and for cyclists because you have that crosswalk at the stoplight and so for me it's just how how much fragmentation is there we've got the stoplight and then another entrance then another entrance you know I certainly couldn't recommend something that the fire marshal wouldn't approve of but in an ideal world from the recreation perspective if we could have the access point both for entry and exiting be at you know that other location that we're talking about that would be ideal I mean anything that's going to mitigate increased traffic into the park area or the park access is an improvement certainly over what we have and we feel that the new driveway curb will will significantly reduce well it'll it'll at least reduce by one half and we think even more the amount of traffic utilizing that first 100 feet of of feral drive a feral park road so that's the benefit as far as the new curb cut because anybody that is likely coming in from the east heading west is going to utilize that new curb cut rather than drive all the way past the project and come in we're really probably talking about the only people that are coming from the west and turning right into the site as they have always done for the past 30 years that we would be eliminating that particular traffic by consolidating everything in in that one curb cut so it's a balancing act as far as all the pros and cons and certainly anything is going to be better than nothing as far as what's happening at that particular location so we're we feel comfortable that we are making the situation better with the two curb cuts and limiting access to one way in at that particular point and that still allows the site to be viable as it is if the city had provided a curb cut off of swiss street a long time ago we wouldn't be having this discussion but nonetheless we were guided I understand to come off of the side street so here we are today climbing out eliminate that people side street conflict and we're just trying to create a situation that balances the impacts on the property but still makes it viable in regard to the internal circulation that was baked into the design on k1 yep totally appreciate that and I would just say I think you're aiming to mitigate some of it it's not going to eliminate the conflict so I would just you know state that you know I appreciate the mitigation ideally you know when we're talking about a structure and and creating an additional curb cut from my lens it would be best to mitigate it all together but I recognize that you know you've got a lot of pressures and you know again I certainly wouldn't want to go against anything that the fire chief is is saying is a necessity I'd like to hear from the board so can I ask you a question Holly so what's the you you describe the two cars there what is the what is the concern now as the with the driveway now is that that people are turning in and and and people going in there by accident or you know they're trying to turn into the office and then they're ending up in the park is that's what is that what's happening um so I would say we've got a couple things happening Matt I think you've got people that are trying to make a connection to get into the expansive recreation path that would go where those two cars are really down into the you know um Shabansky park or up to overlock there's great connectivity in there so it's it's really a connection point so there are a lot of bikes that come you know on both sides of Swift street and then we also have pedestrians with the limiting of required parking for for businesses what we also have is a lot of people parking in Farrell park and walking over to access businesses in that what I call it the Klingers kiosk but you know Klingers and Rev and those kind of things so there's a lot of activity there's a lot of pedestrian traffic there's a lot of bike traffic and and then there's a lot of motor vehicle traffic you know especially you know in the summertime anytime there's little league you know it's it's packed in there and there is a lot of coming and going and we could get information from you know the bike and ped committee in terms of kind of either either accidents or near misses at that corner because I I know they have that data um but I guess that would be my concern so if there was an opportunity to mitigate that risk could that that would be ideal so so I understand it go ahead go ahead there oh I I'm sorry Matt my fault um Holly I didn't know if you had thought at all about providing some additional guidance for pedestrians and bicyclists through that particular driveway through striking or anything of that nature because there's nothing out there today to provide guidance on where people should be as they move through that particular area yeah I mean again I would talk with bike and ped and I can get some data from them I don't staff that committee I'm not sure where our property line begins and ends so I'd have to do some research on that um and and get back to you mean if it were something on land that we owned that we could you know support some signage or striping I mean we certainly could do that um hasn't been done to date so I'd have to get some some background on that okay board what what do you think uh well I think I think the way that that we've set it up is to say we still don't know the answer or do we know the answer Marla about whether or not a fire truck can turn around using that that that new curb cut if that was the only way they could get in and out we don't know for sure that that can happen yet do we we haven't heard from Chief Francis right so the recommendation in the staff report I don't know Delilah if you go back to the plan and I can draw on it um it was as can this if this curb cut were eliminated entirely can a fire truck um sort of make it in oops moving around make it in back out again and if the answer is no we have our answer we can't we can't we can't do it we have that I think there's a couple yeah yeah go ahead situation there's a couple different versions of no you know is the no because this radius is a little kind of tight um is is it a no because you know there's no freaking way this will ever if you loosen up the radius and maybe turn this first parking spot into um you know eliminate one parking spot you know how much that you can always get to yes but it's a question of how much of the site do you lose and is that reasonable um or maybe yes right now Marla it's dawn the staff report was to demonstrate that and we can always invoke to review to have you know an engineer take a quick look at that if Marla yes dawn so in your report I believe it referred to something called creating an apron or broadening the apron and I wasn't sure what that meant I don't have the language in front of me is that what you're talking about now yes I think what's also coming in front of me okay well it's John I I'm of two lines on this um I think I think uh 99 Swift has a inadequate uh access today but has an access which is I assume through an easement or otherwise there's um if it hadn't been 99 Swift who was walking up to the street up to this next parcel we would be cutting a new street street entrance anyway uh if it wasn't Dan Morrissey and Steve Terrio and and company we would be Dave would be saying we need an entrance and uh the building might get it might shrink a little bit but housing and and affordable housing is is something that I want more of in the city uh I I do not have a problem with both entrances theoretically though I can certainly see Holly's point on it being easier for the city if we close off that that far entrance that uh westerly entrance so I'm of two minds I I I tend to lean more towards allowing both yeah okay thank you for that John Mark Jim Wilson you're not slow can I weigh in go ahead Mark all right um I'm kind of uh John's mindset um in terms of the the fact that you know pretty much everything he said um the only thing I kind of lean towards at the tail end of his discussions is the fact that you know long term um if the if the fire chief for the fire department can review the single curb cut access and say it works for them I like the idea of containing the development to a single curb cut and long term improving the bike head and vehicular access to Feral Street because right now it really feels like you're sort of driving through someone's parking lot to get to Feral Street after years of little league coaching up there and I'd love to see long term that get improved um and I think right now you know as John said if this is anyone besides you know 99 coming in we wouldn't even be having this discussion but because we are but the thing is we are so we have an opportunity and we should look at it and discuss it and so I'm kind of leaning towards if the fire department and fire chief says they can make it work with the single access I'm leaning towards closing it for long term city improvements and containing these two developments to a single curb cut okay thank you Mark Brian Jim Melissa Dunn I totally agree with what Mark just said and this is John I you know I agree and I I certainly agree with what John said about we need housing affordable housing accessible housing in this community Melissa John Jim I'm uh pretty much in agreement with Mark as well I think I would prefer to see um only the one curb cut to access yeah I'm this is Jim I don't feel particularly strongly that that and I think the one way is an improvement and um I'm not sure how much added benefit there's going to be I mean I agree that the intersection needs or the driveway or entryway to Therald Park needs needs some attention I'm not sure how much how much help I think needs help besides closing off this this entrance um I'm not I don't feel strongly that closing this off is necessarily the solution okay thank you Jim you know I'd like an answer to the question whether or not a fire truck can turn around given the current configuration um with parking in place with parking in place not not moving anything existing you know Marlo talked about the different versions and no I'm not interested in moving the building I'm not interested in losing uh parking that is necessary to keep that office complex a viable entity but I am interested in knowing if it is possible to get a fire truck in there and get it out given the current configuration and I don't have that answer yeah I just know from Chief Francis that they can live with one entrance as long as they can get a truck around and we don't know the answer to to that question yet so Matt Dave Marshall here we we have done some internal work but haven't shared it with staff as far as again those turning movements and as drawn here two of the spaces would be impacted as a as the ladder truck basically comes into the site and tries to make the right turn only to have to then make the left turn so there are challenges but I don't have all the answers because I didn't do the loop all the way up and around and things of that nature so obviously you only have my word as far as the statements made on that end of things but the proof is in the pudding as far as at least showing them on a plan that everybody can look at and agree on so I'm not looking to extend this unless that may ultimately be the where you have asked us to go which is get the fire chief or fire marshal to confirm their ability to basically move through the site and that's that's the one piece of information that that you need and is not a not readily available right now okay well let's put a pin in that for now and unless there's anyone holly or anyone else that wants to talk about about the access because I think we get some other issues that may may or may not yep sorry I just wanted to say thanks for the opportunity and you know always good to be able to connect and see people and you know regardless of what happens with this development it just brings to light the need for you know better connectivity and safer connectivity and and kind of a better presence to access the park so that's certainly something that we will put into our to-do list and eventually when budgets loosen up a little bit and we have some money to do some things we'll we'll be coming to talk about those things too but just appreciate inviting me in and listening to my perspective and thanks for all you do okay thank you for what you do holly appreciate it okay um if there's nothing else on access for right now we can pause on that discussion and talk about the trees so um Dave we we we wanted to hear from Justin about the jog around the oak we've conceded that the other tree is dead or dying and needs to go we wondered if we could stay at the oak tree we've heard from Justin about the Justin our public works director about how we would accommodate a sidewalk and a jog around and he seemed disagreeable to that which implied that that the oak may need to go what are your thoughts going forward after reading those comments and discussing them who's that hey marla do you happen to have a Justin's email from this morning yep i ran it out to the board in deliberation so if you wanted to allow your welcome to i i'm going to paraphrase because i don't have it in front of me but i i recall Justin saying that um he observed what we did is we applied the recommendation of Craig Lambert near Harvard risk with regard to horizontal separation distance of the path and this is with mitigation measures to help save the tree and Justin looked at the geometry of what's necessary do the bare minimum job around the tree and felt that that was an unacceptable geometry whether it become just from usage of pedestrians and and small bicycles on the on that particular pathway or whether it actually be from a maintenance standpoint so he indicated that if there wasn't any other better way to basically deal with the job around the tree that he would recommend that in light of the other issues that he saw there that the tree be removed in order to facilitate the great alignment of the sidewalk there yeah yeah so that's kind of where we're at and we we obviously we want to save as many beautiful trees as we can but we also don't want to make it unsafe and or cause unburdened on our public works team so we're back where we started any other comments about the the oak the board or staff or the applicant if not then then now we can talk about landscaping and and what's the plan to meet your landscaping budget Dave you want to talk about that so in this particular case what is that issue that prevents the numbers from adding up to the required minimum landscaping budget of $31,380 is a the applicant's original request to include the wooden fence along the east side of the property and also the inclusion of the perennials that are part of the overall landscaping plan so things that we had mentioned at the last meeting was that there were a lot of existing trees that are being retained and it would be nice to get a little bit of credit there the other thing is is the applicant was asked to determine the cost of the improvements for the grilling area the patio and basically the the walls that shape that area the short retaining walls and the Steve Terrio from Wright Morris he has put together those particular numbers hasn't provided it to anybody other than perhaps narrative now but Steve can you fill in the blanks in regard to at least what your findings were there yeah for the pavers at the grilling area I have a budget of $4,400 in the retaining wall that supports that area for the grilling of $3,600 so a $3,600 and $4,400 you say so the math comes up to $8,000 on that particular area yes so I guess in regards to just doing the quick math between trees and shrubs coupled with the $8,000 then that puts the total landscaping proposed budget of $33,000, $34,000 without taking credit for any of the retention of the existing tree except for the oak of course so Marla is that all spelled out the numbers you just heard are brand new I would remind the board that we don't count the full value of those kind of features we count the value compared to you know standard so like if you were required to put in a sidewalk along the road or the driveway and instead you put it it would only be the incremental cost but like we talked about in deliberations counting just trees and shrubs they're deficient by oh shoot 13,625 minus 12,390 they're deficient by $5,365 so you know if you want to talk about the value of the retaining wall you know say we calculate half of that $8,000 that puts up to like $4,000 probably more than that but just to be really conservative maybe half of that so then you'd be saying the value of the existing trees to be retained are a little less than $1,500 um so you know we could frame it as the combination of the things and the site being well landscaped um gets us there you know but I'd like to hear from the board on whether they feel like the combination of these things does get us there okay John, Mark, Brian, Brian, yeah what's up John? Hey Matt, can I weigh in? Sure go ahead Mark. Okay you know obviously we we've discussed the oak and I'm I'm it's going to be a shame to see it go but I'm fine with it for to get you know the sidewalk in straight because I think again long term getting a well landscape site and getting a straight sidewalk especially in what's going to be eventually getting more built up is important um but you know and I do think that the site is pretty well landscaped I don't love the idea I know we do do it but I don't love the idea of using sort of hard scapegoat features but I I get it um if we're looking for areas I think that one thing you know we need to keep in mind is that um on the east side is the east side yeah the east side um no the west side the west side of the site where the entrance laid yeah where we're getting rid of those oaks I think we're getting rid of like five or six trees um put the new entrance into the parking lot and the sidewalk and stuff like that but I don't see a lot going back in there so you know I think that that's one area of the site that looks like it could be you know getting some supplemental um plantings back in there to replace some of the ones I'm not looking for you know the old school inch for inch replacement type of thing but I think you know that could be an area where we could see some added landscaping um effort just trying to work the numbers so that it works out okay anyone else thanks mark you know it's john uh I think I think mark's right uh there is some ability on that uh western flank um I hesitate over uh landscaping apartment buildings particularly with larger trees you end up with uh dark apartments which is not appreciated appreciated by anybody um and I think this is pretty well landscaped so I don't have a problem with the patio um hardscape on that um I I'm not sure I'd go beyond that so there we are thanks John anyone else hey Matt it's Bob Duncan could I just offer something about that I think Cynthia can I'm talking more detail but if you can get back to that west side of the site plan we are planting new trees there and we are leaving existing cedars there so we're it's not going to be bare it's a little a little hard to see in this drawing but uh you can see that that there's there is shrubbery and some of that is uh is uh perennials which is another point I'd like to argue later but the existing cedars are scheduled to remain in that location and there's other trees planted along that west boundary between the park and uh and the new building so it's not devoid of landscape it's the point I'm trying to make right thank you for that Bob um at the left this is Marla at the last meeting Cynthia testified that there would be um pollinator plantings as part of the perennials um you know I don't want to entirely discount the idea that perennials do have some value but they do become problematic to um sort of when they become part of a landscaping budget and you have to go out there and the landscaping plant says okay there's 50 day lilies one two three you know so some sort of compromise between those between those two scenarios would be really great yeah that's one of the things I was wondering about this this idea of identifying perennials and whether or not the issue is uh that the folks don't have the skill like I don't have the skill uh to identify most perennials by the plant themselves but we could certainly every plant has a has a label stick that comes with it uh you know if we were you know for the for the cost of you know 75 paint stirrers with the name of the plant on it uh planted in the ground next to the plant so that a zoning person can see oh in fact that plant was put there and there was supposed to be 13 of them and there's 13 labeled right there I don't know that that that plant is a such and such but the stick tells me it is and I think that there are ways that we could we could do some labeling so it'd make it easier for staff but I think to discount perennials when they offer a tremendous amount of landscape especially was as Cynthia testified about pollinator value which is incredibly important but just the the variety and scale and you know seeing grasses blowing in the breeze I mean there there there is value to that landscape that I think is should be counted and and whether it's dollar value or it's just aesthetic value but to discount it and say that you know $5500 with the plants is worth nothing this makes no sense to me just to remind us to figure that out the exercise has to be done twice when this one certificate of occupancy is issued and maybe the little labels will still be there immediately upon planting when um I I or my friend my whoever comes after me goes out to inspect um or but it has to be done again three years later when the escrow or the bond for the plantings is released and after three years those labels may not be so apparent that's true the garden supply sells metal labels that would probably outlast all of us so as long as the someone weeding it doesn't pull the metal label out we could do that I think there's there are ways to identify plants that will have a tag on them my wife and I planted a tremendous number of plants in the old city hall park 30 years ago and we put sticks in the ground and labeled every plant and so people could come by and see what they were and and I think it's it's doable thing and and they're it just seems silly to me to not put value on something and you could even uh make a requirement uh condition of approval that I'm going out of limb here but that you know Dan and Steve would accept which is the replaced perennials that don't survive you know we have somebody here who has the skill set that you can you can see by driving by 99 swiss tree what care they take in the landscape there I mean it's always properly mulched it's not over mulched it's mowed properly the trees and shrubs are taken care of so these are not people who are going to just abandon it and leave it to to seed into into weeds I feel very strongly that that it's it's important to put value on this on these priming plants that I think there's a way to figure out if they're there or not thank you thank you bud matt okay yep go ahead bud yeah so um we did have another project uh involving the top level of the parking garage at the airport where I think we gave credit for our pollinator plants and that was something mentioned in the last hearing was of interest at least to me and I think other board members as well so could we hear more about the pollinators at this point Cynthia you lower bob you want to start with that um about what's planned what is being proposed here or the the importance of pollinator plants what is being proposed here we can speak to the important importance of pollinator plants I just think uh in this day and age that the landscape architect is not incorporating pollinated plants into the landscape um that that you know in our training we're hearing that that is just has to be a number one goal for any landscape residential commercial public space so I just make that a number one goal whenever I'm doing a land a planting plan and it's not just um the perennials that the clubs I've included here are most of them are also pollinator plants because they bloom and also they have berries that will provide food for for birds and I guess I just would like to say a follow-up with what bob Duncan had said and that is uh perennials provide a great diversity of patterns and textures and colors that shrubs can do in a limited way and I just like again I like to include perennials in the landscape too and help with that year-round interest in year-round color I think it's it's very important okay um thank you for that I do agree I mean in my garden I have a lot more perennials shrubs for exact that reason but I was hoping you could give some specifics about what type of pollinator plants would be used here and where they would go oh gosh I don't have the I don't have my plan right in front of me uh but all of the plants uh most of the the um I would say all of the perennials certainly specified on the north side are all those perennials and the shrubs are all pollinator plants they all have blooms that track attract a significant amount of of bees butterflies from the denoese the hydrangea this will be the hosta blooms they they all attract an abundance of of pollinators um and similarly on the south side between the building and the parking lots of all the perennials uh proposed in there are uh pollinators uh and I should say that most of the the perennials are native as well so in in each in each area of the landscape of the north side the south side between the building and the sidewalk up above the retaining wall um I've included pollinator plants in all in all of the areas. Matt uh it's John yeah I guess I I guess I would suggest I mean we've we've got enough things here of enough value that if we're 5300, 5400 short before we get to hardscape perennials uh this wouldn't privacy fence I don't agree with but um you know I I think I think we're there honestly uh and that's that's my personal opinion yeah I agree with you John okay is there anything else on landscaping if not uh storm water um 11 last our last meeting Dave there are three outstanding issues is that regarding the uh design of the storm water management system um uh you saw what's in the staff notes is there a is there a update to that or or do you want to address the staff notes directly right now so our staff has been working with the storm water utility and we created a roadmap to uh acceptance between the two parties in regards to how to uh address the concerns so at this point in time uh if you were to close the hearing tonight would be acceptable to a condition that indicates that the applicants to comply with all the comments from the storm water utility okay any other questions about the storm water issues okay but now uh might be appropriate time to ask if there's any member of the public that would like to make a comment regarding this application if so you can do it two different ways one is by saying your name and I'll call on you um or the other is by entering your name in the chat box and just writing hey Matt I'd like to make a public comment so I'm going to check the chat box now don't see anyone writing and I haven't heard anyone so it doesn't appear there's any public comments about this time okay so um so what we're at is we've got a an applicant saying on the three issues that they're willing to agree to a condition regarding what the storm water chief says we've got a landscaping plan that appears to be near the finish line in terms of meeting its goals and sort of an understanding of what the board would like to see and then we've got um we remove the oak tree we fix we straighten the sidewalk and we still haven't made a final decision about whether to accept um whether to have two access points because in my mind I want to know whether or not a fire truck can turn around before making that decision through an existing configuration but I'm not the only want to get to make the decision here so um in order to get that information of course we can't close this hearing we have to continue this hearing um but uh is there anyone else on the board that has a uh has a different opinion or a slightly edited opinion I think you're right on Mark Matt I think that the the fire safety and turnaround is really important for us to know I just feel like I could make it I can make a because I'm up to mine like John and Mark described so well but um I feel like I can make a more informed decision if I do that answer so Marla if we were to continue this hearing when we continue it too um we have room on the next one the the quicker we can get stuff from CEA the better just because you know the package is out on Wednesday I think and and what is the and functionally how does this happen you write it out to uh to Chief Francis Marla well so um assuming that the applicant is willing to provide this analysis and we don't need to um invoke technical review and get a third party consultant to do it I'm seeing some nodding from Dave I'm going to take that as he has um you know CEA would send over a plan showing some turning movements we would kind of have a conversation with Chief Francis about it um hopefully CEA's plan could kind of show both what it does as designed and what it would take to work maybe that seemed like a reasonable suggestion Dave seeing more nodding yeah we'll give you you know four or five different sheets of paper that show all the different turning movements so that they don't get too overlapped on top of each other that would then allow for um Chief Francis to review and and make determinations on whether or not um those particular accesses are acceptable so anyways long first short is by the end of tomorrow we can have that to you and if you can then work with uh city staff on the the uh the second part yeah maybe I could do that sounds great okay well that tells me what I think I need to hear so if there's no other comments or questions from the board or staff or the applicant I would move that we continue uh preliminary final plan application SD 2037 of 99 Swift Street Associates to December 15th sorry second I'll second that seconded by Don and we'll do a quick roll call um Alyssa hi Don hi Jim hi John good Matt votes aye seven oh we've continued to uh the 15th thank you very much everyone okay all right thank you agenda item number five agenda nine to five has been withdrawn that's the continued preliminary final plan application SD 2035 that's the financial institution in the Shaw's shopping market on Shelburne road that has been withdrawn the next item on the agenda is the minutes from November 17th I didn't see the minute from November 17th Marla did I'd miss something no soon had some issues so they're going to be in the next packet also in the next packet get really excited are the minutes from March 5th 2019 no I thought off my room but okay agenda number seven is there any other business okay hearing none then that concludes the South Burlington Development Review Board meeting for December 1st 2020 good night everybody see you in the 15th bye