 Nigeria should scrap the 1999 Constitution and adopt the 1963 Republican Constitution. This is to position a Professor Itse Sege and the federal government and the Delta State government differ on the £4.2 million in Bori Loot payment. This is Plot Politics and I am Mary Anacor. The Chairman Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption, Professor Itse Sege, is still in the news and this time we are speaking about his opinion on the Constitution to be adopted by the country. He stated that the 1999 Constitution should be scrapped and that the 1963 Republican Constitution be amended and adopted as the country's constitution saying that it contains all that is or that we are being agitated for in the country at the moment. For joining us to discuss this sir is Barista Opina Chico and also who will be joining us is GD O'Logan, both of them legal practitioners. Thank you very much Barista Opina for joining us. Thank you for having me. Alright let's start from the idea of the 1963 Constitution being recalled in 2021. Does that Constitution really have what Nigerians need? Is that what we want as a country right now in 2021? Okay I do not think that the 1960 Constitution has all that Nigeria needs to all that we need to move Nigeria forward but I also would agree to understand that there are things or there are a few things that we need to maybe take a cue from, take a cue or borrow from 1963 Constitution but to say that we should go back to 1963 Constitution to me will be a kind of retrogression, it will be a retrogressive move but however there are things, some few things in the 1963 Constitution that we need to take and possibly adapt it to what is happening to the situation, to the current situation in Nigeria in order to move the country forward. Can I ask exactly some of the things that you would point to in that 1963 Republican, I'd like to underline that what Republican Constitution that might help us in today's Nigeria, let's not forget that Nigeria has really evolved and of course we're no longer regions as we used to be, we're now 36 states including the FCT so can you point out some of the things that might be adopted for Nigeria in 2021? Okay number one is that though it was not, it was not like the 1963 Constitution that brought about that but somehow that also we're also incorporated in the 1963 Constitution, one of those things is one, the autonomy, the regional autonomy granted to the then three regions in fact the West and the East had autonomy in 1957, I think August 2, 1957 then followed by autonomy also granted to the Northern region in 1959, however that also was incorporated in the 1960 Constitution and again in the 1963 Constitution. Then another thing again that is in the 1963 Constitution that we may also have to adopt is the issue of having a leaner or a, if I use the word not imperative form but having a weaker center that is trying to reduce the items in the exclusive list, of course the audience needs to know that the items contained in the exclusive list are the ones that the federal government can handle, can legislate upon or make policies regarding to, so the 1963 Constitution had a very leaner, the items, unlike what we have in the 1999 Constitution where the federal government somehow overnight became an octopus that has its hands in everything and that's the number two, then the number three thing that we have in the 1963 Constitution that I think we may have to try to use or to adopt is the issue of having parliamentary system of government because if you look at what we have in 1999 Constitution, 1999 Constitution made governments too expensive. In the 1963 Constitution the ministers are also members of the House of Representatives, meaning they are part of the legislature, so they take one salary when they are elected as a member of parliament or as a member of the legislative federal House of Representatives, then again if the prime ministers decide to appoint some of them as ministers they don't get two salaries, they don't get two allowances, the same one that they have will also be, so by that we will by a greatest and reduce the cost of governance, that's number three, then again number four is the issue of what is in the 1963 Constitution that if we adopted it will also have to reduce the cost of governance, that is in the issue of region, I mentioned that because if we go back to region it therefore means that the regional government, it therefore means that the regional government will not create local government, create local government councils within their region and will have to find a way to fund it. But I'm curious why we would, I'm curious why we would, I'm sorry, I'm curious why we would have to go back to regions, I mean again it's 2021, there are states in different parts of the world, there's nothing wrong with having a state but I do not know if it's a very novel idea, I mean I'm asking for us to go back to regional government, again we already have local government councils, we already have local government councils. Sorry, I'm not advocating that we should scrap the state government or the state system, I'm not advocating that but what I'm saying is that the reality on ground today has provided us with cis geopolitical zones, in the cis geopolitical zones, like for instance the South East has five states, the South South has six states or there about, so if we decide to regionalize Nigeria, it has to be along the cis geopolitical zones, the states will remain there, the regions may also have the power to create more states if they can form it but regarding the issue, regarding the issue as to which of this system or pattern of governance will serve Nigeria better, I think regional government will serve us, then again I didn't mention that another thing that should also be taken from 1963 constitution is the issue of allotment of resources, allotment of resources, in the 1963 constitution with less allotment or less percentage of the resources that comes from Nigeria goes to the center, whereas the larger chunk goes to the regions, so to me about these five items or five issues can also be imported from the 1963 constitution but to say that we need to go back to the 1963 constitution who climb and sinker, I think that that will be retrogressive, we can still if we regionalize and grant autonomy, the most important thing there is to have autonomous regions, if we have autonomous regions that will try competition amongst the regions, I can tell you that the four-generation universities that we have in this nation were mainly a product of competition because when the South East came in, the Eastern region came in with an idea to have a university which is in the University of Nigeria in Sokka that was about in 1958 or there about, after the establishment finally 1960, other regions immediately followed suit, there were also other things too that South or the Eastern region or the Western region had to go from Northern region, so that will drive competition. Competition, okay, so let's go back to what Professor Isege had been proposing because he said that this is his opinion on how we can restructure the country, he also proposed that there has to be certain amendments here and there just as you have said to make this constitution if we did decide to go back to it, that's the 1963 constitution, to make it accommodate states instead of regions and also said something about the constitutional reviews that we have now because I mean the constitutional reviews have started, they're moving to different states and different parts of the country. Now if we are to look at the constitutional reviews that we're having because this 1999 constitution has been reviewed and amended in 2011 if I'm not mistaken and now in 2021 and it's being amended, going back to the history of this 1999 constitution it was drawn up by a military government which means that we should not necessarily be using that constitution under a democratic system and we're going on how many years now, so why are we even reviewing this constitution, why can't we write a whole new constitution, we've had confabs, we've had committees, I mean is there anything too different, I mean I know that drawing a constitution is a whole different ball game but would it not be better to have a whole new constitution other than having these amendments over and over again and then still having to complain about the loopholes that will still emerge? Yes, first before I answer that question or I explain further regarding to the question, we need to understand that from 1914 till 1963 Nigeria had a total of about seven, about six constitutions, we had the first one which was the Londugas constitution that was the Magamation constitution in 1914, later on there were still agitation which culminated into having the 1922 constitution, from 1922 that didn't solve the problem there were still agitation that led us to the 1946 constitution, from 1946 we had another one in 1951, then another one in 1954, then of course we had another one that was in 1958 which now became the 1960 constitution and soon after that we had this 1963 constitution and of course we had another constitutional conference in 1989, that one the constitution didn't see the light of the day, then again we move on to 1979, okay, 79, 89, then finally 1999, then one thing that I want us to understand regarding 1999 constitution, that constitution was not made for democratic governance, it was not made for, the constitution was an idea muted, muted by one man in order to have the country run under his apron strings, in order to have the country run the way he can easily manage, at best. And we're still using that constitution, 20 something years down the line, okay, okay, I agree with you that we do not need to, the best thing that should happen in order to move Nigeria forward is to retire that constitution, have another constitution that will be, there will be people oriented, and again, looking at the 1999 constitution, and if you look at the preamble, I'm sorry, can you just hold that thought, because we're being joined by Barista Gideologon, he's on the phone, let's just get to Barista Gideologon, I'm sorry, I know that you have had troubles joining us, but now you're on the phone. The question I just asked him is, I mean, we all obviously, we have the judiciary, we have lawyers, we have the MBA, and the issue of the 1999 constitution keeps coming up and going back into the dark, it comes back out when we have issues such as the one that we're experiencing now in the country, why has it not been pushed? I mean, I know that we really don't have lobbyists in Nigeria, but why has the NBA and lawyers, we've had attorney generals who understand and interpret the law that have been okay, somewhat, with the 1999 constitution, even when it is not democratic in nature, yet the National Assembly is embarking on another form of constitutional review in 2021, shouldn't we be jettisoning it in its entirety, instead of trying to see how we can plug loopholes here and there that might emerge yet again? Let me start by responding to that brilliant request that constitution is a body of principles or precedents by which a state will be governed, and we know that there are some countries that do not even have written constitution, and they are prospering, so I think the agitations we are having in Nigeria is because we have mismanaged the country. I mean, it's my personal opinion that there is no perfect constitution in any part of the world, and like Dr. Bina has exposed, which we have studied in history, we have had several constructions, but how do we benefit? Barstow-Ubina, please turn off your television so that we can hear Barstow-Logan. Please turn off your TV Barstow-Ubina so we can hear Barstow-Logan. Thank you. Go ahead. And you see, let's take a scenario. We have a motto in our constitution that should be the kernel of our relationship. It says unity and faith, peace and progress. Do you actually need any written document to be united as a people? My answer is no. It has to do more about the drivers of the leadership process. If you want people to be united, you can unite them. So we may even come up with a fresh constitution if the orientation of governance does not change in Nigeria. We also do not need to repeal or amend the... We apologize. We're having connection issues with Barstow-Ubina, but let's go back to Barstow-Ubina if we can get him. Barstow-Ubina, can you hear me? Just like Barstow-Logan is making reference, I think I would let him come back and speak more on that, but let's move on to other issues. Let's talk about other constitutional conferences. We had the National Comfab under the Good Block Journalist Administration. The APC did not show up for that constitutional conference. When the APC became the leadership of the day, they also had the governor of Kaduna State, Nasser El-Rufai, to come up with a constitution, rather a committee on restructuring Nigeria on true federalism. And they came up with a document. That document, as we speak, is gathering dust. And I always ask, what's the essence of these Comfabs and these recommendations and the fact that we never get to use them? Why waste taxpayers' monies if we're not really going to make any use of it? And then what's the guarantee that this one that they're backing on is not another wild goose chase that will bring us back to square one? Okay, so let me quickly disagree with what my later friend said, that I am the driver of the constitution that made it impossible for 1999 constitution to work. That's not true. The 1999, is it the drivers of the 1999 constitution that made governance offensive in Nigeria? The constitution there provides for federal character, empowering the president to appoint ministers representing the states. When you appoint a deceased and maybe possibly six ministers, won't you pay them? The constitution has issues. Look at the derivation principle in the constitution. So many things. Look at chapter two of that constitution that should drive an egalitarian country. That chapter two is not just dishable. I can bet you if we continue a dissolution of the 1999 constitution, it may not finish. A time will come when all the sections would have been altered and I cannot even know the constitution that they are using. Then regarding the issue, what you said, I want the authorities to listen. Constitutional conferences are not just something that is organized maybe for a jamboree. No, constitutional conferences usually are platforms where the burning issues in the country, the disagreements, the things that both the majority and the minority are seeking for. They come through a constitutional conference and rub minds together. Possibly all the sections now listen and hear them out and possibly agree on something. So to that extent, anytime a constitutional conference is organized, please, the authority should endeavor to implement it. Maybe if we have implemented 2014 constitutional conference, maybe the kind of challenges that we have today will not be there because the 2014 also the one organized by the immediate past government have some of the issues that Nigerians are detective for today settled in that constitutional conference. So constitutional conferences are usually convoked in order to solve problems. Let's talk about the no-go areas. Please, they should endeavor. The white, sorry. Let's talk about the no-go areas because as much as the recommendations, I remember vividly a handful of the recommendations from the national conference that was done under the Good Luck Jonathan administration. But then there were no-go areas. In other words, those areas that were supposedly no-go areas are some of the things that we are battling with in the country. There's some of the unset things that we need to address as a country. So why should there be no-go areas in any constitutional conference or any ComFab or whatever committees on restructuring of federalism? Why should there be no-go areas if we really want to address the needs and the wants of the people in that piece of paper? Yes. Ideally, there shouldn't be no-go area or area. There shouldn't be no-go area. But I think the reason for no-go areas, the reason for itemizing areas particularly, particularly as it has to do with biconization or cessation, I think that maybe the reason for making that a no-go area is to is to guide the conference. But I think that if you do all the other things suggested or agreed upon by the various communities or various states or regions that make up Nigeria, the issue, that particular one that is regarded as no-go area will just be something that nobody will be interested in. For instance, I'm so sorry one more time. We need to get Barsalogo back in because he's back. Unfortunately, his connection is not so friendly today. Barsalogo, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Sorry about all the connection issues. Before you went off, we were talking about why we need, why we're still using the 1999 constitution. But let me push something else to you because we're running out of time and you can still answer all of them. We actually are operating a unitary constitution parading itself somewhat as a federal system or a federal constitution. Now my question is why have we continuously disguised these things? Could it be that the people who are in power are benefiting from this disguised somewhat unitary, somewhat federal federalism sort of constitution? Why, again, I'm going back to the question that I asked you, why is the NBA, the judiciary, the bench, why are you not pushing against this? Because we see all of the cracks in the wall as a result of these shrouded constitutional or processes of governance as opposed to a democratic system that was supposed to be running. You know, I quite aligned myself with the position of Dr. Obina and I just want to use a clear precedent. Right now, the judiciary is on strike. All right? Why? Because the governors who are supposed to be subject to the rule of law have refused to respect the provisions of the constitution. And that is the premise I prompted my argument from, that it's not about the constitution you have, really, it matters for how willing you are to implement them. The chapter 2 that Dr. Obina referred to, if the Nigerian government has focused on chapter 2 and implemented it up to 60%, Nigeria will be the third richest country in the world today. And that is my position. So even before we start talking about constitution, we must first synchronize our efforts, unite as a people, revive the vision for national development in line with the sustainable development goals of the United Nations. If not, there will be gross disrespect of the so-called constitution. Let me ask you a simple question. There is something we are debating right now on the ban on open grazing. How can someone come up to say that because you have the liberty of that constitution to stay in any part of the country, do business in any part of the country, that you can go and back on criminality? That is what we are talking about. So are we really together? Are we all benefiting from this arrangement? The answer is no. What has happened to NNPC? NNPC that accounts for over 80% of the revenue of the country is driving us to zero revenue now. Who are the people driving the subsidy? Who is in charge of NNPC? My president and commander-in-chief of the armed forces is the substantive minister in charge of petroleum resources. What is the spirit of what is the expectation of that ministry to Nigerians? These are things we are talking about. We have about 40 security agencies in the country, and yet the level of insecurity is a threat not just to Nigeria but to the whole world. So for our IGDO logo, it goes beyond pushing for a new constitution, amendment of the constitution. Are we willing as a people to develop? If yes, I believe that even with this present constitution we have, we can still move on. I pay my due respect to the regionalism and everything. Even if we are going back to regionalism now, are we going to pick it at the level of geopolitical zones? Are we going to pick it at the level of 36 states and Abuja? So there are issues, but we have a global expectation, zero tolerance for hunger, zero tolerance for insecurity, prosperity, empowering the people, maximizing resources. Is the default of the constitution, for example, that we have a government that has gone borrowing from $12.12 trillion Naira in 2015? We are now above $30 trillion Naira, and what can we show for it? Is the default of the constitution, for example, that we are going to spend $1.5 billion trying to fix the refinery? So I believe that it's either we decide like Dr. Obina has insinuated. We had the Confib in 2014 or thereabout. Are we a people together? Or does a section want to oppress the order? And that is my own concern. It's not about the documents you have. I'm a lawyer, so I can tell you that it is about your willingness to respect the provisions of the documents you have. The document may be faulty, but I am advising all our great audience, take time to read from section 14 to section 17. Of this present position of Nigeria, as amended, irrespective of how flawed it is, if the outlined provisions in section 14 to 17 are carried out to 60%, Nigeria will be the third richest country in the world. We have a law that says the governance of the state can manage the lands in the community. Now we are saying that it cannot make laws to manage the land. People can graze anywhere. So we need to first discuss our units, and we say it's a no-go area. Why is it a no-go area? Amos territory says can two work together except if we agree? So that's my position, Dr. Obina. All right. We have to go. We have just 20 seconds. You keep saying that we have to decide. I'm guessing that if you go to the average Nigerian on the street right now and ask them what they want, they'll say they want peace, they want security, they want unity. They want to be able to live anywhere in this country and not feel like they're outsiders, or they want to be able to sleep in their homes and close with their eyes closed. So when you say we, are we the ones that are in the way or the we there? Are you referring to the people who have been stifling? We make reference to the people, and I can let you know what majority of people are saying now is that we go our different ways. What power do the people have in this regard? And for many stakeholders are also expressing it. We are divided right now. The unity is not there. The equity is not there. And who's responsible for this division? Who's responsible for this division? Have we always been divided? Or have we? Exactly. Section 14, Section 2 of the Nigerian Constitution, 1999 as amended says that the security and the welfare of the people shall be the primary purpose of government. Are there discussing review of constitution in Switzerland, in Sweden, in Australia, in Rwanda? I mean, let's, let's, let's, let's wake up. Okay. The government has a responsibility to unite the people and prosper the people. Okay. Why are they there? Well, we have to go. Unfortunately, we have to leave it there. We have to leave it there. Bye, sir. Thank you very much for being part of this conversation. Let's hope that this conversation will continuously unfold, and we will be back here to analyze it more.