 It's one o'clock on a Monday afternoon, so you must be watching think tech Hawaii research in Manoa. I'm your host, Pete McGinnis-Mark, and today we have two guests. We have Kayla Brignac, who is an undergraduate student in the Global Environmental Studies Program at UH Manoa, and Jim Paterra, who is a specialist in the Hawaii Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, also at UH Manoa. So welcome to the both of you. We're going to have a fascinating discussion today. The focus is on marine plastics, and I think this is a particularly important topic for everybody who's living here in Hawaii who goes to the beach, which is everyone, of course. And so let's start off the discussion. Jim, tell us a little bit about, say, the global significance of this study. Sure, sure. So in SOAS, we do a lot of work that's ocean-related, and one of the topics that came up back in 2011 was what's going to happen to all the debris that came into the ocean because of the- And SOAS is the School of Ocean Earth Science and Technology. Sorry, that's correct. Right? Our home. And through that study, a bunch of various groups around the world became very keenly aware of this problem of debris in the ocean. And there have been small studies here and there, but the United Nations got together and decided they wanted to get a global inventory of how much plastic really was out there. And actually, there was an article in The New York Times just a few days ago that cited a paper that came out in Science that says that over 8 billion tons of plastic had been produced since the 19- Billion with a B. Billion with a B, that's right. And- That's a ton per person on the planet. That's right. Yeah. And of that, half of it has come since 2004. So we're on this sort of exponential trajectory. If you look at the cleanup efforts and the recycling efforts, the amount that's being recycled and being cleaned up off of beaches and other places is just a mere fraction of what's being produced. So there's this big question about where is all the plastic going. So our contribution was to look at ocean circulation. And we had this idea that if we could forecast where things were drifting about the ocean, we could find these areas of concentrated plastics. And one of the regions that's been getting a lot of press in the past several years is these global garbage patches. So there's a few of these in the world oceans. And there's sort of this misconception that you could go there and you'd be looking at a debris field. And actually, if you went there, we've done cruises out there. It looks like blue ocean, but if you tow an instrument through the water and collect things, you'll see a lot of plastic. So this is a global problem. It's not just in the Pacific Ocean, it's the Atlantic and the Indian Ocean as well. And it's of such importance that the United Nations have commissioned you and some colleagues to do a research study on that. That's right. And there's a lot of difficult aspects to the problem, one of which is that plastics are tremendously valuable to humankind. So we can't just say, let's eliminate plastics. And it's a question of how big a problem is this? What can we do about it? So we're really at the first steps of this and that's why. And just to finish it, you're what's called a physical oceanographer. So you study where the water goes, chemistry and temperature. So then Kayla, as an undergraduate student, what's your role in this? The United Nations presumably didn't ask you to do this. Not yet. Maybe in the future. No, so I'm doing a research study on the composition of polymer types of marine plastics throughout the Hawaiian arcuago. So I have been working with a lot of collaborators on other islands, NOAA, the Pacific Whale Foundation, Hawaii Wildlife Fund, a few others. And they've collected samples for me, so I've been analyzing them to be able to ID what kind of polymer they are. Polymos is sounds as if you might be a chemist. Is that true? Yes, a young chemist. That's my background. So most consumer goods only see them. They have that resin code labeled on the bottom one through seven. And that is an indicator of what the plastic is made out of. And so that's essentially what I've been trying to determine. Because when you see marine debris, they don't necessarily have these resin codes on them. A lot of them are just little tiny fragments, or they've just been weathered down or kind of mechanically broken down so much that we don't know what they are. And so I've been trying to determine. And your focus is predominantly on the Hawaiian islands, is that correct? And you mentioned the term called marine debris, and I think we brought along a slide. Maybe the first slide, which would actually show you go out and walk across Hawaii beaches, right? So is this what you refer to as marine debris? Yes. So this was actually in Kuzuku, one of my sampling sites on the north shore of Oahu. This beach in particular is extremely ridden with marine debris. And I believe they had actually just recently done a beach cleanup here a few days prior. So this isn't even as bad as this beach can get. And it's amazing because you can't see the magnitude of it in the picture. You see a lot of big pieces in the picture. And then when you sit down in the sand and you start going through it, you find so many little tiny pieces, so many little pieces of line, fragments, foam. I mean, it's really amazing when you kind of start digging through it. And this obviously is of significance not only to people who like to sit on pristine beaches, but for the marine ecosystem. I would imagine that fish might be entangled in the bigger pieces of debris as well as the smaller pieces, which they might eat, thinking it's food. Yeah, exactly. Well, even when I'm going through my samples, it's hard to determine. Is this some kind of biology? Is this a rock? I don't know. And then I cut it open. I'm like, oh, no, that's plastic. So if it's hard for us to determine it, I mean, I can't even imagine what it would like for some kind of organism to not know that it's not food. To not eat it. But lots of us go down to like Kamana Beach or Alamoana Beach. We don't see it there. Jim, is this something that's prevalent on all Hawaiian islands that unless people are picking it up almost daily, will we see it on Waikiki Beach? Or is there some ocean circulation which? Yeah, usually the working hypothesis now is that the trade winds are blowing these things ashore. And here in Hawaii, we have what are called high islands. So if you look out the window, you see mountains. And you can imagine that the trade winds are blowing. Let's say on the windward side, it's not going to pick up a bottle and blow it to the leeward side of the island. Whereas other places in the Pacific, that may well happen. You have an atoll, and trash would just blow right across it. So for the high islands, most of the time, we see accumulations on the windward side. But the interesting thing, and one of the things that Kayla's been looking at, is you might imagine that the whole windward side would be the same density of debris. And it's actually individual hot spots. And we're trying to figure out, what is it about these hot spots? Is it that there are no people there, or there are a lot of people cleaning up? So as an example, Waikiki is relatively clean, most likely because the hotels do a good job of sweeping every day. So there's a high number of people there. So you imagine a high number of debris. But in fact, it's the opposite, because of the clean up efforts. OK. And to get some better feel of the magnitude, in the second slide, I think, Kayla, you brought along an image of two of your colleagues. See the second slide. Yeah. So that's Melissa. This just looks horrendous. This was actually all collected from Midway. From Midway Island. I was able to sample or subsample these from NOAA. They provided them. I don't remember exactly when they were out there, but this was over a duration of a couple months that they were out there collecting all of this plastic. And you can see a lot of it, buoys, nets, lines. So it's a good indication that it's from ocean-based sources. All right. And as a chemist, can you actually say where some of this material comes from, if it's produced in Asia or if it's produced in North America from the chemistry of the materials? We can't necessarily track where it was manufactured. There are some samples that I have, if they're intact, that'll have Asian writing on them. So that is a good indicator. But just from the chemistry itself, not necessarily, not yet. There is something, a theory, gone around that you might be able to age the plastics based off of the form, and I'm just going to get really heavy into the chemistry, so I'm not going to talk about that. But by aging, do you mean when the plastic was manufactured or how long it's been in the water? How long it was in the environment, is what we're thinking. OK, so that you can get some idea of perhaps how rapidly it's building up on the beach or how long it was in the open ocean. Yeah, that's what we're hoping, which is something that I plan on diving into in the future. So I haven't had a chance to go quite inside yet, but. This is something that actually I think surprises a lot of people, because you're used to watching TV shows and people can radiocarbon date things down to the day, but plastic is so persistent that it's extremely difficult to age a piece of plastic. And you pull a bottle off a beach, and you have no idea if it was dropped there last week or 20 years ago, unless it has a label on it. And so that's why the work that she's doing right now is so critically important, because it fills one of the gaps in this idea of if you're tracking something in the ocean, if you don't know how old it is and you don't know where it came from, all you know is where it is now, you have no idea. Like I said, it could have been dropped off that morning, or it could come from Japan three years ago. And with no idea if a marking's on it. Although I presume, Jim, that there will be certain instances, say, like after the Fukushima tsunami, where you had on a specific day there were all this debris being put into the ocean. Is that where you can provide kale with some quantitative information? This piece of junk's been in the ocean for six years, Yes, right now, some of the bigger pieces that we found from Japan are mainly the floating debris that get driven by a combination of not all the ocean currents, but the winds, actually. So the winds are blowing these in a more direct path than the ocean currents would. And if we can identify these, having come from Japan from that prefecture, then we can say, OK, this is most likely from that event. And we can say, well, now here's a six-year-old piece of plastic or whatever. Are there other examples where you can pin down the exact date, like with a tanker sinking? Right. So there have been several cases of accidents at sea that are well documented. So one was a container full of Nike tennis shoes for trainers. And so we knew exactly when that went in the water and where, and people collect them. And those are easily identical. It's not like a plastic bottle. What started as a brand-new Nike shoe is easy to see. And you say, oh, I found this. And do we rely on citizen science? It's essentially to find these things and let us know where and when. And then we can do that. And as we said at the beginning of the show, this is a global problem, presumably. It's not just in tropical islands. It's around the US and Asian coastline and so forth. Right. I think a lot of the main plastic producers are in the West and Pacific, so Southeast Asia and China areas, confounding that they're also somewhat behind in their waste treatment. So a lot of these things are open garbage dumps, essentially. So the rubbish is not treated. Here we burn a lot of plastics. But in some of the developing countries, it's just a big pile. So the wind comes and you pile it now in the ocean and it's drifting around. Well, we're getting near the point of the show. So before the break, let me just say, hopefully, we'll be having a chance to look at some more specific examples of this breed. But also, why is it important to people not only in Hawaii, but also around the world? So let me just remind the viewers, you are watching Think Tech Hawaii research in Manoa. My name is Pete McGinnis-Mark. I'm your host. And with me today, Kayla Bubeck, who is an undergraduate student at UH Manoa, and Dr. Jim Potemma, who is a specialist also at UH Manoa. And we'll be back in a few minutes. Bye. She said, what are you doing? Research says reading from birth accelerates our baby's brain development. Push! Read aloud 15 minutes. Every child, every parent, every day. Aloha and Richard conception, the host of Hispanic Hawaii. You can watch my show every other Tuesday at 2 p.m. We will bring you entertainment, educational, and also we'll tell you what is happening right here within our community. Think Tech Hawaii, Aloha. And welcome back to Think Tech Hawaii research in Manoa. I'm your host, Pete McGinnis-Mark. And today, we're talking about ocean plastics with Kayla Bubeck and Jim Potemma, both from UH Manoa. And Kayla, during the mission, you reminded me that you're also working with NIST, National Institute of Standards. National Institute of Standards and Technology. And technology. Let's start off this segment. Briefly, what is NIST? NIST is a non-regulatory federal agency within the Department of Commerce. And they are responsible, essentially, for generating new standards and new methods that other scientists can then go out and use for their research. So I was really lucky, actually. And I am a recipient of their summer undergraduate research fellowship, which is how I've been able to kind of get involved in all of this marine debris work. And so they've been funding my project for the summer. And I was paired up with a wonderful mentor who I love dearly. Jennifer Lynch is amazing by far. I mean, she's great. I mean, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for her. But NIST, why would they be interested in marine debris? Marine debris. So there's been a lot of work coming out in regards to marine debris that is using this particular analytical instrument, which is what I'm using. And we found some problems with it, or I guess not problems, but kind of discrepancies. And so it's a way for us to essentially analyze this method that's been really common in this field and just say, hey, is this right? Are these people actually doing this the right way? And can we make it better? So that's something that we're exploring a little bit more. And you brought along some examples. I did. So first of all, tell the viewers what it is we're looking at here. And then we'll see what NIST can actually do to help us. So this is marine debris that I've collected off the island of Oahu. This plastic bottle is made of peat, which is a number one resin code. And I actually found this on Waikiki, I think, out outside of Fort Deruzzi. So you can see, I mean, this is fairly intact. It doesn't really look like it was weathered too much. So it's probably kind of just dropped on the beach. That's my guess. These three samples that I have lying on the table, this buoy I found in Kuhuku. And this is actually made of PVC, polyethyl chloride, which is a number three resin code. And this is one of those bad ones that people talk about. And I'm just like, hey, you should kind of avoid it. Because it has a lot of additives, it's just not environmentally friendly. So they're good plastics and bad plastics, or bad plastics and very bad plastics? Yeah, essentially. I wouldn't say that there's any good plastics. There's some that are not as harmful necessarily as others. I don't want to say that there's some plastics, especially number three and number sevens that have a lot of additives in them. And they can be carcinogens, they could be endocrine disruptors. And that's something that we need to look more into on the toxicology side. So it's not just that a marine animal might ingest the plastic, and the stomach fills up with junk. It's also carcinogenic, or it can make them sick as well. Potentially. I mean, that's something that we definitely need to look more into. And then we've got other little goodies here. Yeah, this is an oyster spacer, which is made at a low-density polyethylene, which is not recycled here in Hawaii, by the way. So I don't actually know how these work, but I assume that they, I don't know. I don't know much about the oyster farming, but they put them in the freezer. And then this is a fragment. So you can see, when you're looking at this, you can see how leathered it is. And you can see the square fracturing, and just this white layer on top. And it's really brittle and fragile. If I try to break this, it'll just crumble to pieces. And this is also made out of polyethylene. And then this, which I just thought was cool and interesting, is a little bread clip, which we see in our everyday lives. And these are actually made of polystyrene, which is another one of these not-so-good plastics. Maui has actually just passed a ban on polystyrene, or styrofoam, I'm actually not too sure. But yeah, so good to know. And Jim, would all of these be floating around the ocean at the same rate, or would some of them sink? Or, yeah. Yeah, it's, they would float at the surface. And something like this, for example, you'd imagine like a soccer ball or something would get blown by the wind. So this might travel a lot faster than something like this that would be submerged, and you wouldn't see. So that adds a lot of complexity to trying to track this stuff. So I mean, plastic polymers do have different densities, too. So some are going to be more likely to flow, and others are going to be more likely to sink. But even if they're, say, in the top few hundred meters of the water column, they can be transported around the ocean by these gyres, or the saturation plant. That's right. And the other component to it is the radiation from the sun breaks these things down. So Kale's absolutely right. You wouldn't see something like this in the ocean. At least it would be discolored. It would probably broken into pieces. Yellowish. Right, right. And so the ocean does a good job at breaking it up, but that also makes the problem more difficult because then it's adjustable and more widespread. So Kale, this is a fascinating topic. How does an undergraduate student get involved in a project that the UN is interested in, as well as the National Institute of Standards and Technology? What's your background? How much do you think I just get really lucky? And I mean, well, I'm from California. I'm from a little surf town in San Diego. And so we're fairly environmentally aware. And I've always been interested in kind of living more of a sustainable lifestyle, I guess. And so my interest in plastics, I think, stem from that. I was also a waitress for eight years in the restaurant industry. So pretty wasteful. But then you came to UH and discovered your passion for this kind of work? Yeah. So when I came to UH, I actually came here originally to get involved in their bioplastics lab, which was an HNEI. Which is these two? The Hawaii Natural Energy Incident. Natural Energy, OK. Things fell through with that, though. So I had to look for other means. And I was just talking to everybody that I could. All my professors, all my advisors, I'm like, who's doing research in plastics? And no one could give me a direct answer, except my chemistry advisor, Phillip Williams, and then Brian Pope, who is a biogeochemist. And both of them referred me to Jennifer Lynch, who is now my mentor. So both of them emailed her to introduce me. And I actually was able to get a little face-to-face time with her in Brian Pope's office. And then things just spiraled out. Obviously, you're getting a degree at UH. What do you do next? What's your career path for other people who are interested in this kind of problem? How do you get into it? What kind of jobs are available? Well, if you're coming at it from a research aspect, you definitely need to go on and get your PhD, which is what I plan on doing. And that'll either be an environmental toxicology, because I am interested in that side of plastics. And there's so much that is unknown in that field regards to plastics and marine debris. Or I can also go the materials chemistry route as I've dived pretty heavily in polymers. So I have some options. And Jim, why should the general public be interested in this kind of topic? What's the big picture? Well, I mean, it's such a huge issue. And like I said at the beginning, we really can't imagine a world without plastics. So it's a little bit unrealistic to think we just remove it all, or I should say eliminate the production of it. So how do we live with this? And quite frankly, the issues and the questions are so fundamental that we just, how much is in the ocean? At this point, we have an educated guess, but it's a guess nonetheless. How long does it last? What happens to this? I mean, there's a lot of work being done in Europe now that shows it's in. A lot of the shellfish there that they're eating. Another big problem is with what we call microfibers. So the clothing that we wear now, if it's made with synthetics and you wash it, then these fibers that you can't even see with a naked eye go right through the sewage treatment plants right into the ocean and the filter feeders like oysters and clams and whatnot are humiliated. And so, if you think about it, it's, well, of course it's the problem, but if you are a policymaker or in the industry, how big a problem is it? I mean, because we have a lot of problems. Let's face it, is this a big one or a small one? And so the research is still out there. And so as a faculty member, where you see Kayla actually getting involved in the toxicology or the chemistry of the plastics, is this a new direction for the research? Either of you have a client. Obviously, if you're doing a PhD, this is going to be unique for your own studies. Yeah, I mean, I think the whole field of marine debris is just kind of new and upcoming. And there's been more work so done, I think, in the physical aspect of plastics in regards to tracking it via ocean currents than there has in the chemistry and toxicology aspect. So I think there's just a lot of work that we can do in that field. And like Jim said, I mean, we're not going to be able to not have plastics. We need plastics. You know, I used to work for this other lab that tested for silicate, which is essentially glass. So we couldn't use glassware and we had to use plastic. But if we can find other means of making plastics more sustainable or environmentally friendly so they can biodegrade back into the environment or even just making wiser choices as far as manufacturing, consumerism and disposal, I think it will help. And so I just happened to pick up my plastic bottle of water, which is very useful right now. But of course, from your point of view, not a good idea, right? I should have a renewable water bottle on things like this. So very good. So a takeaway for our viewers and listeners would be to think ecologically sound in terms of consumerism as well. Just to make more informed choices. Or just be more aware of what you're buying. And I know people always think it's hard. Like, oh, I have to bring a reusable bag with me to the grocery store. I'll have to carry this water bottle around. But I mean, it's not that hard. But with eight billion people on the planet, then it's really a growing concern. Well, we're getting near the end of the show. So Kalo and Jim, I want to really thank you for bringing this topic to our viewers' attention. I mean, it's clearly, it's important not only to Hawaii, but for the survival of the planet as well. You know, our marine ecosystem is so fragile. I'm also really pleased to meet you, Kalo. And I wish you every success, both with your undergraduate career, but also as you go on to your PhD and try and get a job in this. So let me just remind the viewers, you have been watching think tech Hawaii research in Manawa. I'm your host, Pete McGinnis-Mark. And our guests today have been Kayla Brubeck, who is an undergraduate student in the Global Environmental Studies program. And she's also interning for NIST. And Dr. Jim Paterra, who is a specialist at the Hawaii Institute of Geophysics and Planetology. So thanks for watching today. And please join us again in the near future for another episode of think tech Hawaii research in Manawa. Goodbye for now.