 You know, obviously the meeting is not called order with one person. Okay. So I'm Kirby Keaton. I'm the chair. I'm an attorney. I work for the state of Vermont. For doing tax policy work. Let's go around. I'm Mike Miller. You guys know me. And I'm the planning director for the city of Montpelier. I've been here for eight years now. I am Jake. I'm a senior UVM interning with city of Montpelier. Currently working on the public safety plan. Nice to meet you, Jake. Oh, Jake, I thought you're not a planning commission member. No, no. Oh, so we only have one. Really is just me. Yeah. Hi, everyone. I'm Aiden. I cough from SE group. I used to be in Burlington and now I'm in Colorado. But familiar with this area and within the community planning team. I'm often working on. Economic development, communication. A lot of our graphics and public engagement. So excited to be here. And I'm Gabby Voler. I'm a senior planner with SE group. And I'm a developer with SE group. I'll be managing the project that Aiden will be doing. The day to day work. And to give you a little bit of background, our company. Has offices in Burlington, Vermont. Frisco, Colorado, and Salt Lake City, Utah. And we recently, our most recent project with. Montpelier was we did the downtown master plan. What was that 2019, 2018, maybe. Yeah, it would have been just before COVID. Yeah. And Aiden, you worked on that, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, with Patrick mostly. And so I do a lot of the, I run a lot of the. Community master plans and kind of downtown projects. And we've done a lot of work on story maps, kind of bringing projects to life on the, on the web through. Maps and narrative. So I'm sure Mike's given you a little bit of background, but we applied for this project. And we're excited to help you bring your. Plan to life and make it. Easy to read for your residents and. Zers and all of that good stuff. Have you guys been able to get in touch? I know. You guys were going to have some folks get in touch with Zach about getting access to our. Stuff, our. Arc map stuff. Did you, were you guys able to make those connections? Yeah, I did email Zach and it seems like we can create everything on our account and then just transferred over. I did not foresee any, any issues with that process. As far as getting. GIS data from. It's at the RBC, right? I thought that connection has not been made yet. Okay. Well, I think we can, we could probably just get going. I don't know, Mike, do you, I mean, I'm still interested of course in hearing if we don't end up having everyone else. Show tonight. Hard to know what was going on with our other two members, maybe. Since. It was just a presentation tonight. Maybe that was, I don't know. People saw that as a, as a reason to take a night off. I'm not sure. But. And you're recording it. So, you know, we could continue and they can. Get up to speed and watch it. And the public. Any decisions are really trying to give you an intro to the project and kind of some of the options and all of that. Exactly. Exactly. So it's good background info. And you're totally right about it. You know, workers recording it. So it will. You know, the public will be able to see it. So yeah, let's, let's jump into it. So this is not an official meeting. This is. So there's no reason for me to call that to order. This would be just a working meeting and presentation for the planning commission. So there's no need to follow the agenda necessarily. So let's just jump right to the plan meeting with. I love it. So the first thing that was on our previous agenda. Was to look at. Sort of schedule. Make sure that that still aligns with both sort of internal and external. Forces there. So if I have the power. It looks like I don't have the power right now to share my screen. Okay. You don't. I have the power. I don't have the power. I don't have the power to share my screen. Why do you not? Okay. Now I do. Maybe I wasn't seeing it, but I was looking in the right spot. Okay. So this is the timeline. Slightly updated since the proposal. We are in this first phase to play defining the plan template. And then we're going to be creating data requests. Kind of trimming down on some text. Doing an outline of each chapter. So once those outlines and data requests are completed. We typically send those to Mike who distributes them to the applicable. Parties for each data request. And chapter. So far, you know, we're here. We're here. We're here. We feel pretty good about finishing out the. Outlines and data requests for the existing chapters. By November, knowing that we're going to be catching up on some of the non existing chapter. A little bit later. Mike, does that. Drive with what you were thinking there. Yeah. Yeah. So. I think the one chapter that. The planning commission will have to work on will be the land use one. And I think that was, we were going to do a little bit of. Maybe iterative work with you guys going to see what would be possible because we talked about a few ideas, but I think the other chapters. Are the community services. Utilities and facilities. And I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be, I think it's working on public safety. So hopefully we'll be able to wrap those up. Our goal is to have all of those, except maybe land use would, would be all done by. The December. Okay. Perfect. So at this point, we have. Chipped away at the economic development energy plan and housing. So my co-worker Julia. Who is on the Burlington planning commission this evening. Once the schedule gets normalized, she'll be able to join these meetings. She created the outline. Did the data request and got material back. And has created. A. Like example chapter that we can look at. We can look at the planning commission. We can look at the planning commission. We can look at the planning commission. We can look at the people to this. After November, December. When a lot of this is in a draft phase. We'll come back to the planning commission. And really look at, does this structure make sense? Is it communicating the things that we want to communicate? At that point. We'll strategize on how we would like public engagement. And then this third phase has these review committees. Which aren't fully. Formed or thought out, but we're essentially going to. Try to put the website in front of. Potential user groups. Maybe youth, maybe. Visually impaired folks to try to see how the usability of this website. Is how the review committee will react to different audiences. So that review committee will likely have. At least one planning commission member, but also just be really introducing other folks to this website. So that's the difference between the review committee and the planning commission folks. And then we have this public engagement opportunities. So we're envisioning. Sort of a plan launch. And then we can get some feedback on it, but really just let people know that it's out there. And it exists. Any questions on schedule or any. Notes considerations. I have a question for Mike actually just. Are we, are we still, or at what point, Mike, are we thinking of starting to introduce this to the city council? Yeah, I think we're going to start with the city council. Because the city council will probably make changes. At least some, some changes. I don't think it was not going to be a rewrite or anything, but that, that could affect. You know, the content that you're putting in. So I'm just wondering how those things you're going to. Overlap. Yeah, I think we're going to have. There's going to be a plan development. Most of this is kind of going through the kind of the plan development. That's going to happen afterwards. And then, you know, we would work with. SE group to make those edits as they come through. We're expecting most of those edits would be smaller. And we can either that's within the contractor. We pay them separately outside to make the small edits because that. Those, those could take. You know, they, we could get in and out of this in three or four months or we could take a year for them to slowly, meticulously pick through everything. So. We just have to kind of go, but most of this is kind of more plan. Development before we go into the public hearing process. Now we're going to want. As we. Come up with things and we start getting into these public process that, you know, a little bit of that in that. Step three. They're going to help us as a group is going to help us set up a number of ways to communicate with the public, but their contract is not to be doing the public input as much as they're going to do. You know, they'll be doing the beta testing and these things to make sure it works and functions with different groups, but most of the public outreach is going to be things that you and planning commission and I are going to do. Taking this on the road to. You know, whether it's going to. The farmer's market or, you know, doing things at the senior center or setting up other meetings or going back to different commissions or doing, you know, the capillary neighborhoods, whatever we think is, is appropriate to get out as much input as we can. Hopefully being an online format, people will have the opportunity to review. And our hope is that within. The. The document itself will be opportunities to provide comment. So our hope is we've just got to get people to start viewing it. And that's this is the plan. So if somebody goes in and reviews the historic resources plan. After they review the plan, they can make comments or questions, but we've got to have some public input meetings that we would probably be handling. A majority of those. And maybe that's within our public. Some of our planning commission meetings, maybe we, you know, do a lot of advertising, a lot of blasting about, you know, we're going to discuss two or three chapters at this meeting. And then, you know, I don't want to try to go through one, you know, take us. Five months to go through one chapter of meeting. We certainly could. It's up to you. The planning commission and how you want to do it. But I would like to see us try to get through a couple of these. A meeting because they're already there. They're already online. People already have them. And hopefully we can do a quick introduction. And then take input. And then move on to the next chapters at the next meeting. So I have a follow up question now. So are you potentially using so what I originally thought was like this. The online version is going to go live at the same time. That you're completing kind of your draft of all your content. So. What I'm hearing now that's kind of helpful is that. You're going to have an online, we're basically creating an online draft. That you want to use. And as a public outreach tool, while you. Go through some additional input and adoption. Process. So we're not put, we're not producing just the final. Plan on the web. We're actually producing a draft plan. We're using some of those public input tools for input. And then, like you said, whether it's we have money left or whether we do additional around for some editing to get it to the final version. Is that kind of what you're. So I was thinking we had the final plan. It's all there. And then we have some kind of continuous. Input process, but I think this is actually better is. The draft plan gets published. We have a caveat to say this is a draft. We're still getting some input. It's not an adopted. Plan yet. And then we use some of those commenting tools, forms, surveys. Embedded on the story map site to get it. To go from draft to final. Yeah, that would, that would be my, my hope. That's helpful. That's helpful. So as far as this timeline goes. I mean, would you like it to be more clear. On this, that there is a draft launch. And then in some future. Time. There is a final. I think it's fine as long as it's understood that this timeline is the drafting process. And that the final would come. Closer to the end. Okay. Yeah. So I think it's. Like now through this conversation, like, is that the right. Are we going to be at a full draft by February? Hopefully maybe not. Like there might be some buzzing is there. Like, like Mike was saying, we don't know how long the city council will take with it. But so my original question for Mike was kind of like, when are we going to at least first send it to city council. You know, when are we going to be at a full draft by February? I think we should at least start that. And. What are you thinking, Mike? That's the summer. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit of a. You know, a little bit of the political question of, of how to manage the process. Sometimes the council just wants to get it when they get it. So we get through our process. We hold our public hearings. We send it to them and it becomes their document. And they have public hearings and. They could have just the required, the two minimum required hearings and take testimony. On the whole document, which would be the whole website, or they could break it into pieces. You know, I've had. Boards and commissions do it differently. I would say Montpelier tends to be a community that, that goes for more public input than less. So I don't know if they're going to simply warn. You know, warn it and over three meetings or four meetings to go and say, you know, we're going to look at these three chapters first, and we're going to take these three chapters next and, and work their way through it. I had 22 meetings on the zoning. You were, you were there for the zoning that was starting in. Starting, I think in February and it was adopted in January. And that was a couple of meetings a month. So. But they wanted to carefully pick through every single single zoning chapter from beginning to end. So I don't know how they're going to handle. Handle this process. I'm hoping, you know, my hope is that as we, as these start to roll out that people are generally looking at them positively and, and, and agreeing with the approach that we took and the process that we took. And that, that this really rolls out. And it would be great if, if we're done, you know, if the content is done by the end of February and we've got things pretty close to buttoned up, we could go right into, you know, an extended planning commission public hearing process that is March through June. And it could be basically going to city council in July. I mean, I would love that. I just can't until, until the public starts reacting to it. I won't know. So having a little bit more of a vetted, they slightly vetted work product before city council. And then have it go through that process. That makes sense. And we try to get the council, we invite the council to go to the planning commission process because we'd rather have their input. If they're going to have problems with something, we'd love to have them, you know, kind of give their thoughts, even if it's just an individual counselor. So it's good to have the individual counselor say, you know, I'm not going to be able to support the energy play in the way it's laid out at this time. Then we know we can either send it on to them because they're just one vote, or we can go through and make amendments to make that counselor happy. But. We really usually don't know until we're in the process where they're going to be. But again, in general, this council has been very good, but we'll also have to see because in March, we'll have. An election where we're going to potentially have three to four new seats. So. Okay. We'll have to be seeing how the elections turn out where things land. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think next on the list was to review progress, which I've given a little bit of an update. The furthest ahead right now is the historic resources chapter. The other ones are still in the like editing and data request phase. I think I have it up on my screen here. Okay. So this is a. Just an example of what this chapter could look like. We went pretty light on the branding and colors and that sort of stuff, just knowing that. There would be. That's often what people really latch on to. So we're going to start with the content and the structure. And then kind of do the polish a little bit later. So it starts off here with just a little introduction about, you know, why historic resources resources are important. A fun little slider. Tool. Before and after. We're also using this example chapter to show you. Some of the features of story maps, like how we want to walk. I don't know how familiar you are Kirby with story maps, but you know, making this come alive a little bit more than just reading a plan. So we're, we're kind of tests. We're testing some of the features that we want to use, like the slider bars, like the show you how the, the text content and the photo content interacts. You scroll through the page. So please, you know, stop us if you want to talk about any of the features or. You know, I would say generally, we're thrilled to have you doing this kind of work because it's, it's not the kind of expertise that we have. So it's a, it's a huge bonus for us. Thank you. I always think the slider is a fun way to like catch people's attention. Yeah. And there are some other examples here that Julia emailed to us today that for her really show, you know, how other cities and counties have taken a process like this to look briefly at those. So here's an example of what we would call like a quick map where she's going, she's using this tool to kind of go through a couple of the like statistics that were highlighted in this chapter. So the historic district, historic markers, the landmark, the numbers are a little confusing because they don't quite match up the stats, but you can kind of see that. Just people around town has a photo has a description. Can you zoom in and out on your own to that map? Or do you, is it, is it tied to just the scrolling? Yep. Yep. No, you can, you can, you can explore in the background. You can. Whoever makes the story map can decide what. How zoomed in it goes when people scroll and where it goes to. And how many clickable products like are all, what layers do you have that are clickable just those four, or do you have like the layer with all the historic structures? So this map, the base map in the background is static. It's, there's no, right. Yep. There's no like actual GIS data that's supporting this. Julia went and clicked on those four locations. Oh, got it. Okay. Yep. So what we can, that's a good point. We, there is capacity and capability to have a base map where you can click on the state building, click on the museum or something like that. And, and a similar. Little info card can pop up. So it just kind of depends on how you're setting up the data in the background, but this one. Was just like a little custom quick. Okay. Yeah, like we've got, we've got the, the GIS data layer for the national register district, which includes the building outlines of the contributing and non contributing structures within the district. So certainly that would probably be a layer that. She could integrate, you know, into that first. Piece when. Yeah, that's what I was. That here's, here's the district. Yep, exactly. And it would have all of the. All of the. You know, which where are the 300 and 535 contributing structures. Absolutely. Yep. I think that would be a cool application. I'm going to write that down. I like this base map. Look, I feel like I haven't seen. Yeah, it's kind of like one of those pre-built ones. Okay. Yeah, that is neat. That is a kind of makes it look old, but new. So yeah, that's this first tool. So far it's organized into issues and background. And something that I, when I reviewed, I sort of highlighted, does that look, we'll definitely want to make sure that where we are going to be in these sections and flow will is consistent. So if all the chapters have issues, background goals, great, but we'll just want to make sure that it's consistent for each one that pops up here. Yeah, I think the header we used was how. This chapter in this case would be how historic resources relate to the structures of the plan. So in some cases they, they support. And in some cases they create. Conflict with other chapters. So. Okay. Okay. Again, this is a, this is like what's called a sidebar with the quick map feature here. So we don't have the overlay district in here yet. We don't have the library. We don't have the library itself. We don't have the library itself in here. And so that could contribute to the contributing structures. But again, I think that would be a really cool thing to highlight on this page. She's a little placeholder here of a little photo library that can be. Placed in this section. And then the, how do we get this done? So I'll need to follow up with her on what. This is looking at. The historic resources. Progress. Number of outreach efforts completed and stuff here. So I'll need to see like how those can be. Sort of like continually updated. You know, if that's a spreadsheet that the city is updating and then the computer just knows to update it, I'll need to look more into that. But then just a little. This was the piece where we were. This is doesn't appear how we measure progress isn't in all the other chapters and this this is where we would need to have a line because it has to be static. The plan really can't be dynamic. So, some of these pieces maybe, you know, we would love to be able to integrate them, but it's really not the primary. Primarily what we're trying to do is make sure we get that top part. We've got the time and you guys find it's relatively easy for us to insert the measurables into there if we locate how to measure things and we want to put them in and we would put them in but we have to kind of put a dynamic line there which would indicate that this is, you know, on the Yeah, there it's it's here but it's not part of the plan here. And then also for the feedback process we could under that line. Say, the above was the draft plan. Here's a short survey. What did you like about this chapter what needs improvement, whatever, you know, a three question survey about the chapter or however we want to get that feedback. Yeah. That's a good point highlight what static and what's dynamic. What's, yeah. Okay. So, are there initial thoughts about the level of text level of graphics structure seems like there's some absolutely some data and mapping that needs to be highlighted a bit more pulling pulling those data points. Get the overlay district in there, things like that. This link I believe is public so I think your folks will be able to look at it and review if you would like to sort of review it on your own time. It is the link will update so if Julia puts maps in here data gets in there you'll be able to see that. If you want to send it to me on the chat eight ends then they can click it. Yeah. Yeah, one. Trying to think if you want to just send it to me. Because I don't know how accessible the chat is going to be at the after the. Oh, okay. So he sent it to me I can get it out to do we want to pause and we have two new participants. So we have our other planning commissioners who were available for tonight. Oh, great. On Adams and Erica ziki are members of the planning commission. We still don't have a quorum technically. Okay. But but we do have more folks seeing this which is great. And just so you guys know my plan to after this meeting I'll do a write up kind of summarizing what we went over for the rest of the planning commission just to catch them a little bit about at least my impressions of things. And can we share the link in the chat. I know for viewers at home we can share it another way or people can actually probably see it on the screen share there although typing that in might be like the cumbersome but thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I can hear that you have some technical expertise with how to, and I'm trying to get to get this right Mike and I have to correct me and how we would link some of the like action items across different chapters that right. Yeah, how to show the implementation strategies that we, right, the goals, aspiration goals and those are what it's why it's on the Excel table because the man has the way to present it I don't know if we can figure out how to make that fit into the story map but we can we should be able to frame it in pretty easily with it or do an embed here. We don't have to belabor that book and cross that bridge, you know at the right time in the process. I want you to know how we were thinking about it. We want to connect those dots at some point. Who would we try to get john to connect up with the all three of you or I think probably aiden because she's trying to running the day to day. Okay. I'll make sure I'll make sure you to your email is connect so you guys can figure out a time to go over things. Absolutely. Okay, no, so I have a couple of notes in here to get the GIS data to look at the structure of each chapter maybe look at the headings of each section here to really make sure that they're making sense. Sorry, sorry to interrupt I think that permissions might might not be published or shared to the public for the story map. Okay, okay. Let's see. I don't know if I have the permissions to make it public. I'm an administrator. Okay, there we go. Thank you. I'm happy to go over like a slightly updated version of this historic resources and and wherever else we are at that point if there's other chapters built out, but as john Kirby Mike as Aaron Jake whoever has feedback on this. And absolutely integrated into us drafting further chapters. Yeah, so so about that aiden. Do you think that the so so what I'm hearing from you is that you want our feedback about historic resources as a template for future chapters. You're going to be do you think you do you think that you'll be developing out more of this in the near future, as in will it make sense for us to wait a little while before we check in about that. So as far as updating this historic resources will just need to make sure that we have the data from the RPC so if that is quick and we can get that incorporated I see that being a next two to three week item probably not a next two to three day item. So, as far as comments on structure and the amount of content, I think that that can be any time. But if there's specific comments that would come after the data is integrated then yeah those would have to wait a little bit. Thank you Kirby one of the big things we would want to be looking at at this stage is to make sure that a lot of the big headers who are talking really the template not necessarily the specific content details so as we had in there we talked about issues and background and you know should that be issues or should that be how this relates to other chapters, because we know how we wrote out our chapters. So those are the types of things are going to be important because we're going to replicate this exact format for each of the other chapters it's not going to have different format, you know if we're going to talk about the issues here then we're going to talk about the issues in the other one we're going to talk about the backgrounds and energy and we're going to talk about. So we're, we want to make sure we've got the format right. And we're talking about, you know, if we need to adjust things, you know, maybe the maybe the decision is hey we got the background maybe the background should be above the issues. Whatever those are really some of the big things. As much as the content is obviously important and we're going to be reviewing it. As far as the point of reviewing a template, we really want to think about the big picture of. Yeah, I like the slider bars I like this or I think that's distracting or those are kind of some of the template things. Yeah, I'm you. Nope, you're good we can hear you. Okay. I mean we get some instant feedback about that now and an Aaron and john jumping, of course, Mike. So yeah so right now it's broken down as issues background and what else issues background goals. How do we get this done. So I don't think that we're married to it but but what we've what we've done so far. It's just like the way the chapters have been have been written and it's been almost. It wasn't by design necessarily just kind of how we did it and how we started doing it. There's an intro, any chapter which is which is background. Right. And then there's. And then there's the next part is how does the chapter that's being discussed how does it relate to the other chapters. And that could probably be put in a you know more interesting or easy to follow or is understandable way, but that is the gist of it and I think that we've considered an important part. So that the reader understands how the whole plan is holistic you know. And we don't currently have that on there right even that relates to your rename that the issues. I believe. Makes sense, I think, that says how it relates to the other chapters. No, yeah, I know she just changed the heading here to save the issues. So this one's talking about tourism economy. Okay. Yeah, so the content that we had about how it relates to other chapters is currently in the issues on on page. But it's not issues so much it's more of, you know, how is this chapter fit with all the other things we're doing. Okay, maybe we change that header. Yep. Yeah, and and we I think I think I can speak for all of us to say that if you if there's an interesting or a catchy way to put that. You know, we're on board. Yeah, because it is a bit of a mouthful as it is. It's probably why he was trying to simplify it and save the years, but. And, and then this, and the last part that's that's our typical way of going about it is the summary of past efforts. That's kind of more background more what's been done in the past. It's not, in my view anyway it's not an essential part of what this plans about. It's a high priority thing to include I would say, although Mike made his degree there's probably some statutory requirements for listing some past efforts if I am in a fuzzy way remembering that. Just to give my two cents of like of like not a top thing but like but having somewhere on there like a rundown of what's been done in the past was important to to when we were putting this together. And then after that the chapters tend to actually walk through the nuts and bolts of the of the plan itself of the chapter itself, which, as I'm sure you guys all know by now. The way that we've ranked things are aspirations are the biggest 10,000 foot view things, and then the goals underneath the aspirations and then under that is, is the strategies which is the actual specific action item things. And can you scroll to that so we can see how that's organized. I don't is that. Do we not put that on there. That part of how do we get this done how we get this done looks like that was what we were calling the summary of past efforts or something like that. Which as you can see from this is it's kind of just like what's, what's going on what's been going on recently. So, did we not put the aspirations goals and strategies in here what about this section. I think those are the aspirations. Okay. What are we calling this header, scroll up a little bit. Those are, we're calling those goals. Okay. So this is an aspiration statement and then these are the goals, but the strategy, or these the strategies, the strategies are how, how we get this, how to get this done. Okay, I don't know what what's under there is are the strategies are not gorgeous. Okay, so is that larger text the aspiration. Yes. I think it may be the first aspiration. There is only one aspirate. There's only one. So, so other chapters, yeah, we'll have one to three. Right, so that I think that is, you know, one of the things that I'm definitely going to look for as these other chapters get developed is, okay, this one only has one and it looks clean. It's all fine, but if there's, you know, multiple this big block text like how do we communicate that those are different aspirations that have their own goals and strategies as part of them. So this, this chapter may not have been, you know, it won't be the best example of how that gets demonstrated for other chapters. For sure, but good to highlight the structure there. Yeah, John. I was just going to say, it does seem like having an either aspirational statement I don't know if they would be like run on sentences for those that have multiple ones but it'd be nice if there was just one for every chapter right. I think, I think, I don't know, I guess throughout this, I've been sort of biased towards simplifying and throwing throwing things out but yeah to the extent that it's possible to make them look at like, I don't know, having a separate thing that says aspiration and goals and then it seems like unnecessarily complicated to me. I like the idea of, if we, if it is just goals and there is either a call out or blocker of a more aspirational statement, and maybe they're longer and others and then having the goals set out. That seems John what if we for some of the chapters as I recall needed more than one aspiration because the subject matter was such a large area that you couldn't have a meaningful aspiration. So I'm just thinking that inevitably will have situations where there's more than one aspiration. What if we just had more than one of these blocks, like, like what what's like this, this the goals block we would instead maybe this is up for debate but whether like the title there that says the goals maybe that actually says something specific each time for the type of aspiration that is. So like in this case maybe it could say historic resources or something like that. And then we have one of these blocks for the aspiration and then below it would be a different block with a kind of a indicator type word as the top as the heading word there that has the other aspiration and then list the goals underneath that. So, so instead of making it look to cramped we just have different blocks. It means the entire page is kind of longer. So these chapters were written I think is how it can work out. I'm kind of thinking out loud to a certain degree here. Yeah, I know you're okay I mean looking at. I think, regardless of how we want to either combine aspirations or not combine aspirations, just making sure that we can have a consistent structure throughout the chapters I think is the most important. So, if we change what this says here like that's, that's fine we just need to make sure that if it's historic resources for the historic resources chapter that that is the same for all the others. And I mean this could be like use the word aspiration but like 1.1. You know my pillar will do this this and this and then things are nested underneath it in a way that people can kind of understand what goals go to which aspirations and which strategies go to which goals. Yeah, I think that that's fine. So far there's only there are two chapters that have more than one aspiration. So there's only housing and economic development. And economic development was because there's a split between the aspiration, if you're looking at it from the, through the perspective of the business. And then there's economic development through the perspective of the, of basically the labor of the workforce. So you have different aspirations. Same same theme but you're looking at through two lenses one through support of business and one through support of the workforce and those are two separate concepts but, and then housing was split into two but other than that, everybody else did. So, as john points out we originally had like four and three and two and four, and they all got compressed down to one with the exception of those two chapters. But it'll probably be a lot more complicated when we get to community services so I'll be curious to see when we try to compress. What's nine different sub chapters. How do we make a single aspiration. I was, I was thinking of community services and I was thinking about how inevitable it will be, but but those things you brought up. Yeah, they like let's take economic development for example, yeah we really divided between entrepreneurship or business or commerce or whatever you want to put that, and then workforce. So, so we have so that lends itself to two good headings, like one being a workforce heading and then, and then stating the aspiration under it. I'm, I'm with you in the, we don't need to say aspiration, it can just be the way that you have it now or it's just stated there. And then the goals associated with that underwear under under that. And it leads me to a question I've had for a while now. The final version, like how the goals are listed there and there's three, you know, goal topics under there. Will the final version have the strategy drop down right there, like with the goal or something you can click on to access it from that location. Is that is that the vision. So, I'm going to tag john in here but if there is one or two strategies per goal I think that we can add either bullet points here. If it's a lot more than that and this is just becoming like a gigantic run on list, we might need to be more creative. A creative vision, a creative vision for this. Kirby, you repeat your question. Yeah, so what we're looking at now is the aspiration listed and then the, and then three goals, essentially listed under that. So where the strategies would come in. I was wondering if, like if a person hovered over one of the goals with this with a drop down menu strategies appear there, or just how how will people access the strategies from this part. And part of my question is, is that the vision or do people access the strategy somewhere else on this page instead. Isn't that what the how do we get this done section is. When we, when we wrote these out originally, the, how we get things done was really a summary of just some of the key strategies but it doesn't outline I mean, as all of you know who've gone through the strategies we sometimes have 1718 strategies that are that are there, and we don't really need to talk about because they're just ongoing programs you know what we're going to participate in designing downtown we're going to continue to, you know, participate in the growth center program and so you've got these different strides but really what the, the, the chapter in the pages really just supposed to tell us what's our goals, and what are the key things we're doing that we're going to help accomplish this. We don't have to go through all every single strategy it's really just to highlight the key thing. And then with something it'll say if you're interested in, in, you know, more in depth or if there's, you know, like you said an inserted box or something, john that people can, can drill deeper into it, then they could go and see well, you know, here's here that various ways that you can kind of look at. What are what are the goals that are associated with this aspiration what are the strategies that associate with this. Yeah I guess my question is how how nested are your goals and strategies is like you have certain strategies under a particular goal or is it like a list of goals and a list of strategies to accomplish those goals kind of more collectively. They're very connected. So what we end up with at the end is the strategies might go through this strategy supports goal one in goal five. And in fact that strategy may also support goal to and goal six from a different chapter because it's so it's not just like a one ABC because your ABC could actually relate to other goals. We built this, we built it from the standpoint of, you know, you know, we want safe and affordable housing so how are we going to get safe housing we're going to do this this this and this and how we can get affordable housing we do this, this and this. There may be some that appear in both lists. But as we, you know, once we built it out, you know, you then take all those goals and all those things, it ends up with a really long list but then after that for presentation sake, we then started pushing things and compressing things together. But which kind of makes it impossible to put in a descriptive format, you know, we don't really want to write out all of that. But from, you know, we kind of look at the staff is going to be kind of in the committees are going to be really looking at those implementation strategies. And nesting is important the information in there is important but from the public explain to the public what we're doing and why we're doing it it's not as important we do want to have right that Excel table and how they nest together. Yeah, I think Excel table go would go hand in hand with some kind of overall network diagram. And I don't know if you've seen these where it will have like all of the strategies and it will show with lines like one strategy might have three connections. And another strategy might just have one connection and it kind of looks like a beautiful mess of wires. But if we could make a network diagram that's clickable in some way. I don't know I'm sure there's programs out there I'm just brainstorming that could be a visual way of showing how the strategies linked to the different goals in the different chapters and then that table is kind of the back end. Yeah and the more and the more information we put in the table the more information we can more questions we can ask of it so if we put in there. You know who's responsible for this whether it's a committee or a staff person. You could then also query by you know what are all the right what are all the projects that have been assigned to the planning director what are all the public housing housing committee and yeah. So people could sort by depending on who they are but again from the plan or the written storyboard that's not really what the public we don't want the public getting lost trying to wonder yeah I agree but the committees and the staff would you know love to understand how to do a quick query of these things here so they could go and isolate the things that are for them because we're looking at this isn't eight year strategic plan and the committee is going to want to say right. This is an eight year plan. What's our work plan for this year what's our work for next year and what should we be going to the council for for budget requests and you know how does this really yeah staff loads you know we can't have all the projects that are assigned to the community development specialist being all the projects we work on and nothing from somebody else so Right. Do you want to do you want to at least label your goals so you could have HR one like historic resources one historic resources to historic resources three. I find like giving a little code like that is helpful in organization. Yeah if that if that makes sense I think at this point we had just made individual Excel tables and at a certain point I started scratching my head thinking maybe maybe I should be building this out differently, but I think we can always go through and make those edits if it's like no go you know don't just go go one go to go three go for you know that should be different for each one of the each one of the Excel tables so that way you know. Yeah we had that was the the concept. It was just unnecessary too complicated to try to explain like to try to have everyone put in those and we figured we would just index it once it was all done and give them identifiers. But that'll allow that'll allow us to you know either create parameters or allow for more interactivity and not worry about like. It'll just simple it should simplify things. I guess I'm still trying to I'm trying to think of like how do you how do we integrate it within this, you know, under each goal, it could get it could get maybe a little messy if we're trying to have like. It'd be easy if you want to send something like have something either pop up that has those strategies and just struggling to think of like how to elegantly. And like integrate all of those in some kind of interactive way. Do we maybe try to make a separate page for implementation, where we have just all that Excel information and, you know, instead of trying to make it into into here and just go through and say for a more in depth review of goals and strategies, you know, check the implementation page with this link or something like that. It could bring you to that and then have those filtered to whatever like that goal is, you know that you could be instructions of how to do a filter if you're interested in more of the filter this is how you would do it. I would like to see the public be able to access the strategies directly from the goals here though. I just just want to make that point that if they're reading about a goal here and it's something of interest that they should have immediate access I think to the strategies of how we're going to do this exactly. And, and there's a lot there's a lot of policy reasons for that one big one for me is. You know, the housing goal of you know, they go to the gist of it is not Peter cares a lot about housing. And a person, I think, would say, how much do you really care about housing, I want to see what you're really doing and they want to click right then to see what the strategies actually are, because a lot of these goals are subjective. I mean I think that people are going to want they're going to read the subjective goal, and they're going to want to know what are you what are you really doing so I just want to make sure that that there's easy access to that. And I don't think I'm not hearing anybody say anything differently I just wanted to make that point so I don't need to take it more time on that. I do think it's important for that for that access to be there. Absolutely do you think that having it be a link is. Is it just another step that you don't want people to have to take or do you, or it would be like a link be okay direct. I think I think a link is fine. Like what what wouldn't be great I think is if you have to go somewhere else on this on the side to access or find that if you have to go look for it. That's that's all I think that's not helpful but, but a link, a pop up thing. I mean I defer to all of you who have much better expertise about user interface stuff than me for that. But as a person who's like a user of these things I want to be able to click the thing that I want to know about now you know, so that's that's all I have to say but but the act the specifics of how that happens is, you know, you just have to try it. Yeah just yeah no I think this is, this is exactly what I want to explore with this group, because there are certain limitations of the website platform and there are certain things that we need to fulfill so knowing where those gaps are like, it's it requires some creative problem solving. When I look at this I'm like, okay there's like a slide function that we could have. Here's our, here's our aspiration, and then it has the goal and a strategy and it's like a, you know I could make that into a photo, but then that's not accessible to other folks like I could, you know have a little chart or we know Gabby was talking about the diagram with the lines showing what serves what, but for someone who's using a web reader screen reader. That doesn't do anything for them so yeah trying to make sure that we're, we're putting the content in the right places. And that it's easy and accessible for, you know, the for the public, not for the more like wonky folks who really want to get into the nitty gritty. So one, one way that could work a little bit, just as another idea that you know following up with Kirby's wanted to be able to have that direct. You can hover over things and it'll bring up a card, or click on something and it brings up a card. And if, if there was the description of the goal and then there's just three, you know, in, you know in the case of the historic. The first historic goal, there are three things is historic surveys program the key historic resources study and the certified local government program. And there can be three of these and you if you click on them and put brings up the box which describes what that strategy is. It doesn't go into maybe all the details of how much it costs and all those pieces or maybe it does I don't know, but it doesn't take you into the actual Excel table depth but if, you know, if there was just underneath assess there's you know those three, three pieces and then under the other one, you know there might be. Again, some of them come back, get repeated so under engage there's certified local government again historic preservation outreach program and the designated downtown program so you'd have three, one of which is the same as the one above but it's the one above but it's just, it's not describing it it's just going to put a little tag there that goes and says, you know, these, these are the tools from the implementation plan that would be used and if you hovered over it, it would describe it, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can play around with it and bring it to the next plan commission meeting, I think it. That's important to get right at this early stage. So I'll try to look at the different functionalities and Yeah, well, see what ideas work and what ideas through through an idea out there maybe it doesn't work maybe it does work but you know ultimately I think the more complicated Excel table full detail piece I think might be going to work best as its own implementation page where we've got all the data and all the information and these other ones can just grab bytes of data that we want to have the public get more information on what specifically we're going to be doing. So I feel like I have some pretty good action items. Yes. Do we feel like we have time to just maybe scroll through some other examples. We find that valuable. We can also start wrapping this part of the conversation up as well. I think, you know this this is we're available for this right now so so whatever will be helpful for you. I think we're on board for. Okay, so there's these two examples when I have Toronto one out of Odondaga County in New York that have done fairly similar not completely the same processes but this is something that as we have more of these houses so development housing public safety community resources whatever you want to call it. These will be the little bookmarks that come up so this could be like a homepage. So folks could see okay housing historic resources. This is how they've chosen to organize it. So we'll just to start to see with what the website can do and how some other folks have organized their information. These don't look to be exactly like comprehensive plan titles but maybe some like strong themes in their community. So here there you can choose to include these bookmarks or not so everything that's this title heading style can come up in here so if you want to get people the ability to. Okay I want to jump to national trends. They can just use this as another navigation. Put links within the text that same sort of scroll and photos look and see if they have any here let's go to their map. So, um, let's see this map. Yep this is has the full sort of GIS data in the background. So I think I can should be able to click and see things maybe they have that turned off. You can choose like what gets displayed on certain maps with the little legends like, let's see if the scroll, they have others. Okay so vibrancy was the only characteristic they chose there, and then they do have a public input form on the bottom here. All thing that we can create. So here they have a photo of a graph it's not interactive and this is the sort of thing where with a screen reader you would just have to try to describe this as best as you as you could but I don't think officially it would count as an accessible form of media. But I don't know that 100% sure. Again they've just used a static map here. And let's see what this map has. I think this will be a really good one to look at because I think we're going to push the mapping capabilities to their fullest extent in the land use section where we want to you know we might want to get a pretty granular. This is why I'm most interested in the other examples of like how did they tackle. We had zoning housing. I believe this one had a really good. Sorry I'm kind of scrolling fast I know it's, it can be frustrating. They had this really cool like map button tool where that's something that I see us being able to okay here's our neighborhoods. We have a million spelling obviously. So here's yeah. So we, you know this could be how many neighborhoods that you say there was Mike. 50. We don't want from a zoning standpoint it's 50 neighborhoods but there's many. Many. Other. Yeah, not on every neighborhood zone differently is it. No. We've got a lot of zoning districts, but it's not, it's not 50 it's just really in a number of cases it broke out. You know, you might have the rural district anywhere that it doesn't have, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, it's not 50 it's just really a number of cases it broke out. You know, you might have the rural district anywhere that it doesn't have sewer and water, but you might end up with nine distinct areas on the city, each one is its own neighborhood. And most of it is really within the zoning. There's a description of the character of the neighborhood. That describes, you know, right spill up by the dam or, you know, another area. So that's where a lot of the neighborhoods, there may be three or four very similar neighborhoods, but they're not connected. So, right. Okay. We'll see how I tackle that this is this is an example of what these map buttons can do. So this is pulling in different census data in the background here. So I believe these are probably their version of census blocks or. I'm not actually sure what the differentiator here is. But you can click on these. I don't know why it's not showing the actual number of population sometimes you can do that. It should give a little, oh, here we go. Legend household income. So this is the sort of thing that we can do with whatever information's in the background of the land use. You can organize it and these can jump to they don't have this capability right now, but these buttons can jump to different Extents of the map and zoom in and zoom out. So people can can explore it on their own. So you won't really belabor these examples but just to show how other people have used it. They're, people are using a lot of photos for, you know, official city and county purposes so now I'm kind of questioning my, my take on the accessibility egg I know it's, it's not interpreted the same way if you just What you would just do is add a little sentence caption to each of these like maps showing population employment concentration but you know it's not as You know it doesn't have the same visual. It'll still be better than what we've got right now I mean, whether you're looking at a PDF map or whether you're looking at a hard copy plan. There's, you know, we don't make, you know, we don't make our hard copy plans with, you know, Braille. Right. I mean, whatever we're doing now on the digital is has got to be an improvement over what we currently are doing and obviously we'll strive to be as fully as close to fully accessible as we can get but at the same time. We'll see where, where we end up from a legal and Right. reasonable standpoint. Okay. Yeah, because I really I think these like our important map graphics and you know it opens up some new possibilities if you know as you can pull in these charts and tables that you, you can't put in otherwise. So anyway, so those are those two I can I'm happy to sign along those links as well those are just publicly available. If people want to explore those these examples more. Or say like I definitely want like I really like that they did this I really want that to be in our plan that's really helpful as well. You know I'll throw those in the chat and then email them to Mike as well. Any thoughts. Sean and Aaron have no thoughts. I don't know anything I'm just learning. This is fascinating. I think simple is good. I think you know static maps are also great with the descriptions. I think we need to just tell people what we're trying to tell them and not like expect people to try to figure it out. And like this Toronto one I think. I think that that where people can explore like the different demographics while like conceptually is cool I don't think the execution is great. I think it's hard to understand what's happening here and you click through and you just see these core plus maps that are just different shades of green and you're like, I don't know what this is telling me, which is kind of neat if you want to dive in and you're missing the so what you have to do that yourself and I think part of the purpose of a comp plan is to do some of the analysis and come up with the so what of like. Yeah, whatever the so what is like we have a lot of neighborhoods with large kid populations or large immigrant populations or whatever it is. And so do you have a strategy or a goal around any of these differences that you're noticing. Great. I think that's where I think the interactive part school but like, I think, doing enough of the analysis of like these are the five ways we want to slice it and show, and then have your so what around those slices. But I can tell you generally that a major priority for this planning commission and for the city and just for Vermont as a state is to allow and develop more housing development. So I think if we are going to focus or dive into a particular issue with with like map data to support it like you're saying that housing is an obvious one for us to have that kind of support around. This this plans, more ambitious than previous plans as far as housing goes and a lot of our work recently has been to try to have the city be more ambitious about helping being housing friendly. So, and it's a, it's kind of the topic of the moment. It's one of the main topics in the state. I think following up on Gabby and john's comments. You know, one of the things we were trying to get away from, you know, we've got a four, you know, whatever a 300 page comp plan that's just full of data and charts and, and, you know, but it's just data for the sake of data. And it's like, well, we guess we should talk about what the population is and, you know, it's well, we're trying to really get away from that really just try to get and focus on the issues and what's important. So, yeah, that that's so what pieces really what's important we didn't intentionally want to fill the entire plan full of data and information it really is. So what's important here's some data that's important to that here's a map that shows that. And, and here's what we're going to do about it that's what's most important is educating the public on what are the issues, educating them on what we're going to be doing about it and trying to leave a lot of the, you know, you know, john and I would spend all day drilling into those those data maps, but I don't think that's useful for the public. Right. We're telling a story here and if it's not helping to tell the story then it's, then it's hurting because it's, it's just complicating it. But yeah this, this graphic here is a helpful one there, you know helping people. Thank you. It's like the whole thing. Do you have granular enough land use data for every building so you know what it is like single family home duplex multi family. I'd have to see what we can feel out of the probably, you know I'm thinking the assessor cards and whether it's as a separate block in in the numeric data or not. It's like residential is broken down by category, but it's up to the local assessor to to fill that out. Sometimes it's in a descriptor in the end that'll say like to to DW plus and it makes it difficult to then grab that and, and recode that now if they were consistent throughout the entire thing and we can. You know if they always said, yeah, who DW and later on they say D, you know, dpx, then you're like well now we've got duplex and two dwelling units it's like that's not going to work for us we really need to have it if it's always going to say to do it says to do. I mean that might be a whole other project but if you had that data you can build some really powerful maps to like show what you actually have versus what it's zoned for. We do have some course we have some course data that we did that we might be able to use as we develop the zoning we went through and took each neighborhood. And that was how the neighborhoods came out was breaking them into various pieces and then calculating what is the 90 percentile for density. So that way you'd know that's why this is zoned res 6000 is because the 90 percentile dense density was 5,980. And we just rounded that up and so we have that for each of the neighborhoods we wrote down what was the density of each unit and found it. Okay, so that might be a good starting point we might have some course data but not specific down to what is this what how many units are in this building know how many dwelling units are in this neighborhood yes. Got it. Okay, okay so Mike I will work with Zach to get RPC data. Is he the right person. On my list I'm actually going to be trying to meet with the RPC tomorrow on something different. And I'm going to find out who the new GIS person is that's over there because as I said they they've. I knew the three previous ones and they're all now off to new job so I've got to figure out who's their newest GIS person unless John knows it's Brian right. It is Brian okay. I have not met him and I will try to introduce myself tomorrow. Awesome. Okay, and then I have smaller notes to just about you know, integrating that data trying to look at a couple ways to incorporate the goals, aspirations and strategies. We will at least do the data request and the outline, just again a word document of the other chapters, but I'll sort of hold tight to making any big website updates until some other information filters in. And that should give some other planning commission members time to look at the website look at those examples and give that overall sort of structural and content feedback. So we can set up a time for you to kind of show us the back end of your spreadsheet so we can start thinking about how that might end to the story map that'd be good. So what's our next, and what's our next goal date for meeting with this group and see I think I had something in a second and fourth Monday or correct. Okay, I don't have anything at least on my project plan until December. We could do the, probably the 25th seems a little soon unless you would like us to come give a brief version of this presentation for the other planning commission members. That could work. But, or the 24, I guess it would be. That seems to 24th of October. Yep. I think that seems to sand. So then we're into the 14th of November or the 28th of November. What would be what would we be talking about at that meeting. We wouldn't be having. Like, I think we, I think we need to do more behind the scenes. So if we're ready to come back to the group. Yeah, I mean, I think the 14th could be. Okay, doable. Yeah. Okay. That seems right before the holidays. Yeah, after the 14th you get Thanksgiving and then. Yeah, I feel like meetings get canceled all the time in that timeframe. And I had also highlighted the, the 12th December 12th as a potential as well so just if that, if there's any like agenda needs of potentially attending that one, but we can make that decision on the 14th. Yeah, so we'll be available to help. Obviously, this is a huge priority for us. So whatever you think you need, you can drop in and ask for feedback. Time may be tighter future meetings, maybe only 30 or 45 minutes available. But I think we're flexible about that. Well, thank you all so much for your feedback and willingness to explore those different options with us. Thanks so much for coming. We're excited. We're glad that a secret is working on this for us. I think we're going to like it. These are really fun projects for us so we're, we like this kind of thing. I guess it's like a fun creative project. I'd like to do that. Sounds fun. It's like good job. Good for you. Hiring. I feel like every planning agency in town in Vermont is hiring planners right now. It's so funny. It's like people are just. Yeah, we need it really. You need planning help. Hey, well, I don't think we have anything else. This isn't an official meeting John. We probably know. So I think we can just call it a night unless anyone has anything else. And if we get, if we leave now, then Mike will come back and everyone will be gone. Anybody have anything else for Gabby or Aiden. For John and Aaron, just to help you guys catch up that this is Jake. He's the intern helping work on the plan with Mike. By the way. Good to meet you, Jake. I was wondering who you were for the last hour and a half. And thanks for the presentations really helpful. I like I said, I, this is not my area of expertise. So it was really interesting to see your ideas as we move forward. So looking forward to working with you guys. Thanks. So your area of expertise is your home community. So where we can help you display the information and make it visually appealing and easy to understand and you make sure that we're actually depicting the right information. From, you know, think about your perspective or someone in your neighborhood that you want to you want to show this to or, you know, your resident perspective is incredibly valuable. Well, I will be in touch with some of those links to get over to Mike and hopefully we can get that GIS data. All sorted, but thank you all so much for your time this evening. Mike, I'll see you next week at the Northern New England planners conference. Yeah.