 Welcome to the Martin E. Siegel Theatre Center here at the Graduate Center CUNY and to Prelude 21. Start making sense. It is our annual Theatre and Performance Festival celebrating the work of New York theatre artists of ensembles and it's hard enough in normal times to create work for the stage and for spaces inside and outside but in the time of Corona we all are faced with exceptional challenges and we are here to celebrate again the extraordinary achievements that come out of the New York Theatre community. It is time I think and we feel to start making sense to ask questions why are we making theatre but also how are we producing it and for whom. And this is a great investigation again into the mechanics of making art in New York City and we also invited theatre ensembles from around the U.S. from Detroit and Cincinnati and Lewis and Philadelphia and New Orleans to join us and this will be extraordinary. Look into what is on the minds of artists right now. Now we also have many panel discussions. We have an award which we are giving out to honor outstanding members of the New York Theatre community so I would like to all of you to join in and get an insight of what is happening. Guamge Melmohamo. Greetings everyone. I am Opalanyatet also known as Ryan Victor Pierce. I am a member of He, Him, His. I am a member of the Nenacoke Lenny-Linope Tribal Nation and I am also a first year student here at the Graduate Center at CUNY and I am also the founder and artistic director of EGLE Project. I certainly want to thank CUNY and its EGLE Center for the prelude festival and also to Hal Rown for streaming and hosting us today. So Wanishi, thank you. And it is a privilege and honor to be joined by three wonderful Native American performing artists and we're just going to go around to open up this discussion and have everyone introduce themselves. I will start in this kind of Zoom square format. We'll kind of go clockwise. So I will start to looking at the camera to my left, which is Ms. Rihanna Yazi. Hi. Hi Ryan, thank you. My name is Rihanna Yazi and I am a member of the Navajo Nation as citizen and I'm a playwright, I'm a director and I'm a filmmaker and I'm the artistic director of a theater company called New Native Theater that's 13 years old and based in Dakota Territory, also known as the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And I'm just really honored to be here and to chat with these wonderful, wonderful artists I've always looked up to and just enjoy their beautiful work. Yeah. Great, thank you so much Rihanna. And next going around in my clockwise fashion is Vicki Ramirez. Hi. Hi, I'm Vicki. I'm a playwright, enrolled member of the Tuscarora Nation from six nations originally but have been living in New York City for about 30 years. Not a multi-hyphenate. I'm so impressed by you guys doing all those wonderful jobs. Pretty awesome. I do some writing and some teaching and I also work with podcasts and script writing, screenplay writing as well. And it's a delight and honor to be here and enjoy this conversation with these wonderful people and be a lot of fun. And so, yeah, thank you and back to you, Rihanna. Great, thank you Vicki. And the next is joining us today is Mara Garcia. Chihou Nika Duu, Nui Dai Da, Udo, Aniki Lohi, Di Giangui, Chiki Duwagi, Naule Gal Shkishki, Naule Dou Yu, Gari Elika, Ahni, Chidou Kohig. My name is Mara Garcia. I am a dancer, a choreographer and a neurotic artist. I am Cherokee, non-enrolled. I'm originally from North Carolina and also Maddam Husky. And I'm just, I'm not Thai, so I'm standing in for Thai. I think it still says Thai on the information. He could not be here, but he was the curator that chose my work that is being shown in the festival. So I'm just delighted to be here with y'all and I'm looking forward to talking. Great, yes, thank you Mara. And as I said, we're honored to have you with us today. And honored to have everyone. So, and I'll start with Mara actually on our first topic for this afternoon is playing with forms. Would you mind sharing with us and in our audience this afternoon as to the different kinds of artistic forms that you play with in your work and how that may counter the kind of traditional Euro-American style of dance and or theater. Yes, thank you. And I just took off my bracelets because I realized they were making jingling noises, which may be interesting, but probably not so great. You know, I I've been thinking about this a lot, especially since the beginning of the pandemic and also with the beginning of the protests and a lot of the equity movements. But some of my thinking about this was really helped by a man named Charles Coronejo. He is Maui from Aotearoa and is a performer, choreographer, dancer, and I was able to take his, his intensive while in Vancouver with Raven with Raven spirit, which is a dance ensemble there. Wonderful dance ensemble led by Michelle Olsen. So one of the things he said was that the movements and the actions and the work that we do as indigenous people, whether they are traditional, you know, quote unquote traditional things that we're doing in official ceremony or things that we're doing in our home, that cooking, planting, all of these activities, when they are repeated and taught and shown those are valid forms of movement, we have been practicing them, you know. You grew up in a place where there's red dirt like I did playing as a child with that red dirt and that manipulation of the dirt and playing with it and forming little objects with it. If my brother is watching, he knows when I'm talking about we pretend that we were making pottery, we weren't really making pottery, but the point is we were playing with that dirt. We had our hands in that dirt and later on planting in that dirt. And so those types of movements, those actions and those connections that we form are also valid, they're valid forms of movement and they're valid places to create from. So, and they're as valid as something that, you know, might you might learn a ballet class, or if you go to a choreography theory class and talk about these prompts, these prompts which may seem random to us because they don't come from our experience or from our culture. Our experiences, our culture and our the work and the actions that we do are as valid as what you may see in a kind of university setting. So to me that that's really interesting. And I'm really interested in the form. So the actual form of work, for example, I have pieces that I've created that are based on digging or that are based on the way you, I don't know if you can say the way you twist corn off the stock, the way you put seeds in the ground. I have a piece that's ancestor dances that it's when my grandma is shaking that skillet over you know that. So these actions of work. They're really fascinating to me so those are movements that I put in my choreography. Another form I'm also fascinated with is the form of each person. For example, each of us have things that we do over and over if I sat there and watched each of you and you watched me at probably at the end of this we can come up with some gestures that we're always doing, you know, like the dance of Ryan, the dance of Rihanna. And when I'm just going through life, I see people moving and I think of that movement as their movement. And so people appear in my choreography, sometimes I tell them sometimes I don't they don't they don't know, you know, that they're there. But to me that is another form so the the dance of someone else mean the dance of their actual spiritual being their physical form. That is another type of form that I use in my work. So I can talk about this a lot but now I'm going to be quiet so thank you. Wow, thank you. Thank you, Mara. And then that's and that's so empowering. You know, I mean, and, yeah, I guess I'll just leave it that that's so empowering in terms of in terms of the the actions of what we do and how they can be art and then even, I guess, how many sometimes are those traditional ways of doing things is still ingrained in us in ways that we don't even realize. So I really, really thank you for that. I like to, you know, keep keep this subject open and and and move to to to Vicki. Vicki, would you mind sharing with us. Yeah, in terms of how you the the forms that the forms that inspire your work and then how you how you how you use them in your in your creation. It's really strange because I I'll be I was discussing this with somebody else the other day it's that how intentional am I, when it comes to my work and the truth of the matter is I tend to not start writing from an intentional sort of point of view it comes generally like a thought or like a visceral response to something or moment music in my head or something and I start writing from there. So when it comes to as far as I have this habit of writing and it's a habit that a lot of non native theater makers have suggested I cure myself of. But I have this habit of writing in the magical realm always weaving it in with my plays as as I write and and and I like I just for me, you know, we're here but but the reality of here the reality of our story the reality of us being is not just this three dimensional world like I'm not sure how many dimensions there are there's maybe six or 12 or 14 so I almost think, like to me, magical realm the spirit realm the ancestor realm is almost like dark matter. The stories are happening. They're weaving around us and inhabiting the space with us and sort of supporting us. And so I tend to write that way. And then I get a lot of dramaturgical questions about. But this is seems out of left field and it's like, no, no, that's very anti or no, no, that's bad fun. So that's sort of how I sort of work within the for let the form go is just how, you know, just letting the way we were raised and told our stories and told to live in the world and just inhabit the space of the play itself. And I try to work to fit it within, you know, I mean, people say, you know, the Aristotelian play structure it's like, I don't even necessarily always know what that means. It's like I went back and Googled it and sort of. You see, how does that apply but it's more from an organic form of trying to tell the story and get the moment and the spirit and the spirituality of that moment happening within the story because they're all connected. I just, it's hard for me to separate it from my storytelling. So that's how I knew that. And I think Rihanna looks like she wants to talk. Yes, Rihanna, you're next. Well, Rihanna, I think you're muted. I guess someone unmuted me right when I unmuted me. Yeah, when you when you mentioned, I guess it's a trigger, right? When you mentioned Aristotelian play form. That's what I was thinking about when the question is asked, because the way that native folks tell stories and write stories, it's just, it's not often rooted in that Aristotelian format, which is really engineered to have a person's nervous system do things involuntarily. That's, I think, I think that's my analysis of what Aristotelian play form is. And we see it, we see it in film structure, right? We see it in every well made play. You know, where my theater company, we just produced a play by Yvette Nolan called The Unplugging. And for those who don't know Yvette Nolan, she's just one of the most respected and lauded First Nations theater makers. In Canada, and we were really lucky to have the opportunity to host her here during the window in the pandemic and this, this fall when we could do an outdoor production. And, you know, this, this play, it very much follows this non Aristotelian structure, this sort of like more organic indigenous way of being, because one of the things that Aristotelian structure is it's like deep in conflict. You know, and I think a lot of times native folks can want to avoid conflict, right? And instead of like conflict conflict conflict as plot points, we have complication complication complication, right? And then also we often focus characters, just like Vicki mentioned, you know, in the spirit world, dimensions that are normal parts of our lives but aren't necessarily part of that white Western Judeo-Christian Cartesian worldview. And then also we have characters that are, that we value such as older women, that you don't often see older women or two older women at the center of stories. And so this play did all of those things, but there was something that happened in the actual performance of the play that kind of blew my mind because I didn't realize this until it was actually in production. And again, remembering we come from oral cultures, we didn't rely on the written word to pass down information. And so when you read the play, I think you can see these markers of indigenous structure, but then when it's actually performed and being, and it was directed by Yvette Nolan, there was this really beautiful moment in the play that is described, but when it's actually played out, it's a, it's a silent scene. It's a silent scene of building. And there wasn't even like, usually in a play, you know, the producer would kind of like freak out. Like why is, why is, why are these actors just doing things, but there's no words and there's no music accenting it to tell the audience, you should be feeling this. So it was this moment where they were building the camp that is created in the first act of the play. And, and it was just an invitation to stillness and contemplation and being rather than doing. And, and it clicked for me like, oh, that is a huge piece of indigenous storytelling. It, it, we have so many moments where we ask the audience, and those are legitimate plot points. We ask the audience to be instead of to do and, and to contemplate. And, and it's very easy on the nervous system, because I think another thing that we do as native people when we write works is that I think that indigenous culture is is some is a culture that is incredibly respectful of how a person wants to hold and conduct their own body and their own body boundaries. Like, there aren't a lot of practices in our cultures. And I'm kind of generalizing as indigenous people, where, where we are being very invasive about how to be a person, just like we, we didn't have these, these strict rules with gender, right? We didn't have these strict rules around sexuality. We didn't have these, these policing of the body. And, and that's another really interesting thing that like, I think that is a fantastic way that native artists explore form. And as we take that Euro form, and we make it our own and create it. Because it, you know, I mean, now it's a form of communication that all is Americans, we, you know, we, we do. But I just, I still think that there are so many beautiful moments of intact native specificity and culture that that we as native artists put into our work. And that needs to be appreciated. But some, but it's also something that I think that non native people need to actually be talked and they need to learn about just in the way that, you know, we go to the MoMA and we learn about modern art. And we figure out what's cubism and, you know, and, and surrealism and all of that, I think in the same way that there needs to be some reciprocity. So that are the ways that we manipulate form can be appreciated more. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Brianna. And, and yeah, I mean, I just know, especially, you know, being here in New York City, which is also of course when I've been hooking. But, but the idea of just being without doing something I think is, you know, it really is kind of, or feels like it's it would be a foreign thing to, to many people to many people here, and I'm sure other parts of the country as well. Yeah, absolutely. The next just to kind of to take the subject matter and segue into our next and actually I'll start with with Vicki on this. You know, we talked about form and I guess we also touched on inspiration as well. But so are there certain, what kind of subject matters do you do you find yourself usually, you know, gravitating towards or interest you in your, in your work. For me, I, again, probably just because of how I was raised, it's, it's all about. And for me, it's about intersectionality. It's about being indigenous and being in the world outside as well. It's kind of, you know, that push pull that sort of what do we lose when we have to compromise and be in this sort of colonized big space outside of our little individualized spaces. And it's, it's all the contradictions and difficulties of that the divided loyalties the again, the wanting to avoid conflict and yet at the same time wanting to stay on our own will stay living in the dead way with, you know, in connection with your community and in connection with the land and living respectfully. So it's those little conflicts like most of my stories are about basically like I like to write from a contemporary native viewpoint from people who are in a compromise situation and sometimes they've gotten themselves into it. And sometimes it's sort of been thrust upon them. But it's it's I like the idea of duality and and and dealing with that it's sort of like the twins I know I'm always rattling on about the twins but the creator and his brother I like that question of the balance the push pull and it's funny because in Western Christian tradition, that means God in the devil, good and evil and it's not with us. It's it's not good and evil it's good mind bad mind, clear headed, not so clear headed that sort of both, and yet both create change both create impact on the world both like what it's like, good mind created the fish bad mind created the bones and you had to work for it and you didn't gobble them all up the thorns on the fruit thorns on the berries that was to make sure you didn't overfeed yourselves, you know, things like that. But so there's this, it's kind of that sort of balance and and I do, like, I really sort of want to deal with who we are today, right now. And, and things like my latest piece is about a woman who has a missing sister, but it's also about erasure like sort of the erasure of our culture in the world at large as far as in the media because media is how we validate ourselves now sadly, and so the erasure of who we are in the media the erasure of our issues. COVID-19 was the biggest example, what what the DNA folks went through. It didn't even get noticed until like four months later, like, you know, they have the highest COVID rates and everybody's like, well, maybe they should it's like maybe they should have access to fresh water supplies folks, you know, like there's there's, I mean, I'm speaking on your behalf, Rihanna and I shouldn't but and I apologize for that but you know what I'm just speaking in a general sense it just started this so I tend to write. She circles back again I'm writing talking in circles because that's me on the circle. I make my way around, but my inspiration tends to be what has ticked me off recently. What has ticked me off about being indigenous in the modern world and yeah so like Uchiwake, which is actually our word Scaruwe for bitter means like bitter for food but I'm choosing to apply other interpretations as well. But it's about this woman who is fed up with performative performative activism and just want something real to happen in her situation. But so that's that's my inspiration is just like whatever sort of frustrates me at the time and I sort of get around to it. And yeah, like I said, it's never I never think it out ahead of time it's usually just something that starts me and then I start writing. And next, thank you. Thank you, Vicki. And next, I'll pose that that question to you, Mara. Actually, I got lost in those circles which were so wonderful could so could you restate that question. Sure, sure, sure. No problem. Basically, I was just saying, you know, in terms of segueing from from forms. And we also did touch on inspiration. I wanted to ask each of our panelists. The subject matter that they find themselves most interested in or that they gravitate gravitate towards or more inspires their their work and creative process. Yes, I will say two things and one that actually has to do with that circle and that spiral. So, I will say, but something to learn from my mother and also my grandmother is that your kindness for example, and your charity if you will begins at home so meaning in the center right so don't just be nice and cute and sweet to the people that you meet on the street. You don't know you'd be nice and kind and sweet to the people you speak to every day. Like my grandma didn't have a lot of money, but she still for the, you know, for the Mission Catholic Church, she made the cakes for the bake sale. But she made them at home always first. She never all her children, they had cake too. And so, for example, Cherokee designs when you make a design they start in the center and then outward Cherokee language when you make the words that they start in the center you have a core and then on the beginning and the end it has to do with who's talking and where it's going on. So, to me, a lot of the time when I'm inspired to make things they start in the middle, and then they move outwards, you know, from me to family to community to world community to other folks, other beings. And so that that's an inspiration for me that circle and that spiral, you know, this never ending and always going so that that's something that is inspirational to me. And also the story, I think in stories, you know, I remember things in stories. If you tell me a story, if you give me some information about dates and generals, I will not remember anything. You know, but if you tell me a story, I can remember that. And I tell stories and I remember stories. And so I know that that retelling of the story, whether it be a story about, you know, what numbers are important, whether it be a story about how to cook certain something. Whatever that story is, because I've made dances about all of these things. So whatever that story is, it's about the retelling of the story to honor the storyteller but also to make sure that information gets out there because stories are made to be told. People need to know that information. And so I, you know, whether it's something small, you know, it may be a short story, it may be a very long story, but that that format and that information is forever inspiring to me. That's great. Thank you. Thank you, Manishi. Thank you, Mara. And I posed the same question to Rihanna. Yeah. What is inspiring? I think that when I want to tell a story, so now that I'm into filmmaking, I'm just about to premiere my first film, which is crazy. And then also just as a playwright. So I really do think of myself as a playwright, as a scriptwriter, first of all, more than anything. And I think that a big piece of why I write what I write is because I'm trying to figure out why these things happen. I noticed when I was a little girl that I would turn to film and stories, television. I didn't have a lot of access to theater, so that wasn't really part of it until I was like, I don't know, really like in ninth grade or college. But when I think about like all the events that were happening to me as I was coming of age, I saw examples in the media, just like Vicki said, that's how we learn how to be. And so as an artist now, I am still doing that. I'm still trying to figure out why things happen, why moments take place. I'm interested in the way that people communicate. I'm interested in why communication doesn't happen. I'm interested in individual personalities and what makes up that personality so that they have this life experience. Right now, I'm going to be writing a play that kind of takes a look at, like, I think for me, my whole life I've always felt like coming from Navajo family, the Navajo worldview, always kind of like put me a little, felt a little different from everyone else. And I sort of was like, I didn't realize that some of these traits that I had were very specifically like handed down to me from a Navajo way of being. And some of these things are not helpful when you're in the white world. You know, and of course we all know what that means. It means code switching, right? And each of us were raised with different cultural specificity. And I don't often code switch well, at least I didn't really understand that for a while. And you know, so like, for instance, if you just listen, and you're not saying anything, and you wait until that person is done, in some places, it's sort of like, that's taken wrong, like, is this person stupid, they don't understand, you know. You know, in some other cultures, interrupting each other is like the height of communication, like, no, this, this, this, this, right. And, and a lot of times I think that as native people, you know, we don't do that, but there are like innumerable examples of like worldview differences. And, and then as older I got, I started to realize, oh, there's not only just worldview differences being native, but regionally native, there are different ways, because each tribe, and each region interacts in a different way. And I moved to Minnesota, and that was, oh, the whole Minnesota nice thing, trying to understand how do I communicate effectively in that environment. So, often times, I'm writing plays where I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to figure out how people communicate, or I'm trying to unpack like, why did this, why did this pain happen, and try to understand like the larger picture around it. And then, of course, I, you know, I'm always taking into account this larger sort of systemic racism that we are in this soup of, you know, living in the US. And then, of course, you can add in a lot of other layers, right, whether you're neurotypical or not, and what are your specific cultural stuff. So that's what my plays are often like sort of like figuring out. And, you know, I mean, I don't stray from subject matter, like for instance, I've written a play about French surrealism and contrasting that with Navajo art, written, written a play recently about Nancy Reagan, and that's super fun. And, you know, and then my film that I just finished, it's an inner tribal love story. So that's kind of fun to see those interesting differences. But yeah, that's probably my biggest inspiration, just like, I can't figure out the world, I better write about it. Great, wonderful. Yeah, I know that's that's fantastic. And well, Nancy Reagan, boy, I haven't heard that in a long time. I wouldn't have expected that to come up on this panel, but it's true, you never know. Well, I wasn't sure if I'd hear Aristotelian, but, you know, but I mentioned that would certainly come up. And, you know, and being the first year in the PhD Theater and Performance Program, of course, you're going to hear Aristotelian. But I must say that this is this is that this panel is almost like a class in of itself. So really, I want to thank everyone for for everything that that's been said so far. For our next topic, we're going to take a little bit of a turn. And and so with with obstacles in terms of creating and producing a native theater and I'm just, you know, just curious basically for for this for the segment. You know, what are some of the obstacles that you create that you that you come up against in creating your work and and what are what are your methods and to to to overcome it. And I'll start with I'll start with with with more. Thank you. I will actually speak about dance because I can't speak about you. My apologies. Yeah, I'm sorry. I kind of defaulted it. But yeah, in terms of the native performing arts. Yes. Yeah. Um, well, I was giggling because I'm standing in front of a closet with a curtain over it right now. So I will say space. Space. And I really don't think that's necessarily native specific has to do with money. You know, where the typical things have been awarded, which goes usually along the lines of the color lines, you know, so it's part of a larger system and then just for people in general in performing art space is a consistent problem. Or I don't want to say problem. It's a consistent thing. A consistent issue. And so being being conscious of how to get it. If one can afford it. And if one cannot, how do you make work that's not that's not made for concert space and when I say space, you know, lots of times we're thinking of a box right we're thinking of a theater. But of course, there's lots of other spaces. And there's this, you know, thought, okay, well, if I'm making work that's not for a theater. Where else can I use to rehearse where else can I be produced? How can it be creatively shown and marketed and shared if it's not in these spaces. So that whole thought of the concern and the issues of places to rehearse places to have work shown. That's, you know, that's an ongoing thing that I would say is always on my mind. And also here I was just speaking with my partner in the so called us there's not. There is there's not as many dancers and choreographers who are working in non palo contemporary dance. And I say non palo because palo is contemporary dance and beautiful and vibrant and huge and amazing. But for folks who are working more on the concerty dance side. There's not a kind of a body there's not national meetings that go on in Canada there is in Australia there is. And so I've been fortunate enough to be able to be a part of that community also. But that you know that's something that we we don't have here in the same way. And you know I won't say I always hate to use the word barrier because it makes it seem like we can't get through it. But you know it's something that's there that there's not a lot of is not as much communication and not as much support. So there's people working and you know we don't know sometimes we don't know each other. We don't know what we're doing and we're working in silos and we're not as connected as as we hope I would like us to be. So those are some things I would have to would have to say. No thank you thank you Maura. Yeah. Yeah no it is fascinating in terms of some of the some of the structural structuralism that that's in certain communities in other in other countries. And how you the United States differs from that that's so that's so true and yeah and space that's true. Next I'll turn to Rihanna in regards to the obstacles that you that you confront and in creating your and producing your work. Yeah yeah I just want to totally like validate what Maura is saying so like we need our land back. That's what I heard. Land back hashtag land back. Yeah well you know I think I think personally in my my journey as as a as an artist. I think the biggest thing that has reared its head it's is trauma. I I just think that it's it is. It's it's it's something that often undermines our work and continues to create so many issues. You know in our in our country. I mean I'm definitely certainly we as native folks we have a very specific history of this trauma that involves. A recovery from genocide and all that entails but it also just as as Americans the you know the sin of genocide that still hasn't been reckoned reckoned with or reconciled. It's it's just created this this foundation of trauma in our country that we we don't address and and it's it's it's a very it's a very tangible thing. And so I and I always sort of like I sort of like over a couple of this trauma with like being complicit with white supremacy because I think that this is a field that is so incredible it's so incredibly attractive to be complicit with white supremacy. There's so many great awards are so many like you know like oh these little carrots that that you know whether it's money or fame recognition etc that require leaving your culture behind requires code switching requires even a huge amount of educating non native folks and others. That that I think that it's it's probably the biggest struggle as as a native person to really get that under control because I think that the the strength I know I hope I'm not going into a crazy tangent but but but just the way that the even in like the sort of like liberal white guilt is so incredibly inviting to be complicit with white supremacy when it comes to people who have communities that have a lot of trauma and then especially as as as a Native American community. I have just seen too many moments where we you know have had these moments to overcome and to decide what what do I value what is my compass what's my moral compass and what do I value. And and that takes a lot of personal reckoning and personal understanding overcoming historical trauma and dealing with the trauma that you grew up with and and and I just that's why I think that Native people are just I am constantly shown how incredibly resilient and strong we are because of all of these these obstacles that do create these these these barriers to a happy well lived life that is fulfilling with creativity. So yeah that's that's been the thing I've seen and often many times I do write about it is one of the things I'm trying to understand and trying to figure out and have have you know over the course of my tenure at my theater company being my being the artistic directors just trying to figure out like what can I do to learn more about responding to trauma and understanding it and you know it's it's a constant it's a constant journey it's a constant thing to learn about. No so so true Rhianna and I'm just I'm sitting here thinking like you know I don't know as a moderator if I'm supposed to you know agree and be so enthused but you know obviously I'm a part of this community myself so I can't help this like yes that's right part of the part of the cheering section so and it doesn't and it doesn't mean that like I don't want to see Native people incredibly successful but I think we can do that without being complicit in white supremacy I think we can do that rooted in our values and creating community the whole way and I think that's what is so strong about us as Native people and especially if you look at Native activism especially since Standing Rock in 2016 it has been rooted in spirituality and prayer. I think the best best parts of our activism lately has been rooted in spirituality and prayer and community and Native values and and I think that's that's that's the direction Native theater performing arts really must be in. Great thank you so true and and Vicki would you mind sharing with us some of the obstacles that that you find yourself coming up coming up against and and how you how you overcome it. Sure, I just want to cosine both Mara and Rihanna's statements like times 100 and this is a conversation Ryan. You're a moderator but this is a native circle so please pop up and talk when you want to talk because everybody gets to talk you know. But for me, it's absolutely the. I think it all ties to this weird sort of tool of and I'm going to say tool of white supremacy because it does all tie back to that colonial superstructure that in sort of invasive that controlling. Sort of overriding aspect of things and it's that scarcity mentality that is imposed upon the arts, I think, especially in this country, I mean other countries are trying to fight back a bit. But you know, as you mentioned that in Australia they they New Zealand, especially to they have more there is more indigenous presence in arts there's more all around support for the arts from the community at large, and that is not what happens here. One of the things we've sort of been programmed to expect is that the arts is a privilege, not a right. This is not that we have to compete against each other to get these exclusive little awards for slots in these established. You know, reputable theaters to prove that we are equivalent to these playwrights these, you know, these, these western playwrights who I it's funny because I, you know, and I look at some of the playwrights that get produced over and over and over and over again. And a lot of the stories while they're interesting and fun. A lot of them are just don't change a moment don't change a day, you know, I remember going to see a play because I got free tickets on one of my residencies for a family retreat in Catskills and just watching like your basic little romantic country town and I'm like we can't write this in native native we write this nobody produces us they want to see our, we have to validate ourselves by lancing the boil of our trauma on stage somehow, we have to show them how our pain has impacted our lives and forgive me but we grew I grew up with that every day. Like it's not the focus of the stories. I mean, it's there. Of course it's there it's pervasive and everything but I just don't see the need to exploit it on stage like that but if but then you get the feedback that this is all but it doesn't seem like a native story if you tell this story this way and it's like. And so how many races have you hung out at that you're telling me that this doesn't seem like a native story to you. It's it's. And again, it's that thing about pitting us against each other to compete for these prizes and don't get me wrong. I, I'm actually, I, if you win a prize without compromising yourself that has a kick butt fabulous. I am cheering for you I am so excited I'm so like. Miss Vianna Yazi is quite accomplished Google her you'll see. But it's it's. It makes me want to celebrate every time I see one of the prizes what but I also. It's it's taken a long time for us to be able to stand up and say. No, we're not going to cater to what you consider is important. No, we're not going to cater to. Like I remember somebody getting excited because the numbers had come out for the residential schools and boarding schools. And they were like, oh, you should add that to your and I'm like, no, so I'm not writing about that that's. It's in everything I write because my family went through that that I don't need to write that play. I don't need to show it in there so everybody can feel bad about it collectively in a group that isn't my community. So for me, I'm trying to speak up I. You know, I'm very much a I want to listen to you I want to listen to your opinion and take it in and learn because you have expertise that I do not have. However, at the same time, I'm starting to learn when it's it's a point of view that is just not mine that is coming in and it's like, OK, wait a second. No, you're changing the intention of the story. You're changing the intention of why it got up and wrote. So that's the way I try to fight it. I try to fight it as diplomatically as possible. Sometimes doesn't always happen, but I tried. I try to be there. And but yeah, it's it's amazing how insidious that systemic racism is, you know, that that sort of monster creature. And I just for everybody, indigenous or non-indigenous everyone, including the folks in charge right now, art is not a privilege. It's a right to take your space, claim your voice, step up and find every chance you can to put it out there. So that's me. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and yeah, and I would say that's probably one of the one of the quotes from today is art art is a right. It's not a privilege. So probably one of the last topics that we'll have is this the future of native theater post pandemic and in terms of what your thoughts and desires are for native theater. And we'll start with. We'll start with you, Rihanna. OK, all right, let's see. Yeah, the future of native theater post pandemic. Well, I think I think that something that that that's come up a lot is a lot of native folks are reticent to be, you know, during the center during this pandemic to like not put our people in danger, you know, which which theater needs needs a group of people to be performed to. And so so I do think that maybe there's going to be this additional level of like care that's going to I think that as native artists that we've always had that like we always think about that. But I think that it's going to just be like even more solidified in some of the practices, because I think that as as as theater artists, when when we learn to do theater, it was so steeped in white American white supremacist theater, which is so detrimental to the body and the nervous system to the family system. Like, like for instance, so many people who go into theater can't even have children. So what does it mean if indigenous people go into theater and don't have children? That's just like an additional like sort of continuation of genocide. Oh, these certain careers are not open to indigenous people because it it carries on genocide. I think I think that there's a lot of unspoken reasons why native people don't do theater. And I think that a lot of those unspoken reasons is because of white supremacist practices in theater. I think it's the reason why a lot of BIPOC people don't do it. And then when we do, there's all of these barriers that and gatekeeping that happen. So I also I do feel incredibly optimistic about some of the leadership change that's come into some theaters, especially with new BIPOC artistic directors who so far I've spoken to a good handful and just so much like love and care for trying to do things different and reaching out to native people. And trying to understand it. So I I'm optimistic, but I can tell you one thing. There hasn't been one white artistic director from a predominantly white institution that has reached out to me. So I don't know if those folks are going to change. So they do and they absolutely need to change. But I also just think about like it within native circles. I think about like tribal colleges that that every year there's an AHEK conference, American Indians in higher education at one time they got to be the judge for the theater. There was a theater contest, like four different tribal I think it was like eight and it was narrowed down to four by the time, you know, I sat in front of and watch. But but I was just so like inspired by the ingenuity of native people doing theater on their own terms, who didn't go through the Sausage Factory of academia for what theater is supposed to be. And it's brilliant. And I just I just think that that's that's that's a really wonderful thing. And one last thing I'll say I was very, very lucky. I just saw the opening of a play of mine that I wrote 13 years ago that never got produced. And it was at Fort Lewis College and like the native actors, like the number of young native actors. And they were just brilliant, amazing actors. And so I was I was just shocked because when I went through my my when I got my degree, I was the only native person in the theater department and it caused deep fear for me every day. But but I just think I think it's really I think that there's going to be way more native folks doing theater. And and I'm excited to see what new stories and new ways that ground is broken. Great. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Rihanna. And my apologies for my little technical difficulty a few minutes ago. If I may just ask a quick follow up question. What do you what do you think the the increase perhaps in native or young native people wanting to go into the arts may be compared to compared to previous generations? Well, my answer might be a little pessimistic and I wasn't going to say it, but I did wonder. I did wonder if but I think this is a larger question. We are constantly asking ourselves as native people is like as we have next generations. How how. I think that there there's more. You know, when I think about my generation, when I think about my father's generation and my grandmother's, there's this successive access to larger the larger American society. Right. OK. And and so now it's sort of like, OK, there's this next generation who are digital natives, right, who have had all of this technology. So it makes me it does. Maybe it's not a pessimistic answer, but it does it does tell me that that there's a certain cultural element that is no longer as big of a gatekeeper to keep native people out. Because I think when I think of my father ever trying to do theater that his cultural difference with mainstream theater, like doing theater would have been miles apart. Like and then I think about like my own experience starting off. It was like it was painful, but but I got through it. But that was because I had so much like support from some helpful adults. And so I wonder if that's a part of it, you know, and I guess I just I don't want to assume that's because oh, we are cultures are are becoming less or whatever. I mean, that's absolutely not something to assume. In fact, I think native zennials are like way more political and way more deeply into revitalization of culture than I've seen in so long. So so yeah, I don't think it's pessimistic answer. I just had to talk it out. Totally totally. Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's it's complex. Right. We talked about some of the complexities earlier. So so Vicky, I'll turn to you now in terms of like what are your what are your thoughts and hopes on on the future of of native theater as as we come out of this pandemic. Well, I have to again echo some of the things that Rihanna said because one of the things I noticed during the pandemic is when we when we started the zoom process. And there's a lot of mixed response to zoom as a theater substitute or a stand in or or, you know, this as an alternate, you know, an alternate version of theater. But what I will say is the that zoom gave us that back that sense of community and it was pan it was pan native. But we also had access to our own communities directly if we were part of the diaspora, you know, we moved out moved on. We could reach back and reach out to people of our nation and create together and that was the biggest thing about zoom is I well ultimately feeling thoroughly cut off from theater, theaters themselves. I felt like a larger part of the theater made indigenous theater community I felt like a stronger link than I ever have before because of how siloed we normally are. You know, there's just a few of us in like New York is a bigger collection of indigenous folks than most places so you can we you know we can find a fairly decent size group of us when when we're all in town, but generally as a rule of thumb. You know you go somewhere and you're lucky if you you get the native people and like find two native people in the area to come out to your show and so I definitely really appreciate that that digital access that these kids are more accustomed to and better with working with than I has opened up possibilities for them, because I've been teaching as well over this period and you know the work with alter theater with reaching out to the Fort pack reservation and other kids that are scattered across the country, who grew up like like we did without having any idea of the theater theater. That's a possibility like what's the difference between theater and a film or what's the difference between theater and TV, because where I went to school there was no drama club there was no teaching you know if we read any play it was Hamlet in English class. It was part of the curriculum at all and there are some kids who don't even have access to that and so I definitely see that post pandemic that possibilities have been open I've seen some young faces starting to realize that they get to use their voice and their voice is valuable that people respond to their voice like watching these kids realize they write something or they create a piece together. And just seeing that look on their faces when they put it together and perform it or they read it, or some an actor reads it for them that they get this sort of validation this confidence that I never had. Probably and I never had that their voices had value have value. So that's what I see I see the wave coming up big guys I see more and more they're going to be seeing more and more indigenous faces around and holding them accountable. And I'm excited for I'm I'm hopeful I I'm feeling you know with all the work that is being done with the activism that this annuals are doing it's breaking down barriers and we have people with the focus who are starting to go go ahead and claim the place because I know when I was younger I was an activist too but I also. And I can't cure myself of this yet hover by the door and wait to be invited in versus these kids will just walk in. And I love it. I love that confidence in their presence and and yeah I think there's going to be a way that these wonderful creatives these kids are going to just knock everybody socks off. That's for me. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And then and Mara. Would you mind sharing with us your thoughts and and hopes in regards to regards to a native dance and you know performing arts post post pandemic. I'm going to answer with just a question thought. But right when Standing Rock first started. I had the chance to go up there. There was supplies that had to go from high school to Standing Rock and I happen to have a truck so we took them up there. But at that point it was still early and what I remember seeing is that there were. Camps from different nations right from all these different nations from within the United States from Guatemala from Canada there were people that had come from some specific places. Black Lives Matter people were there actually Cherokee Nation was bringing in stuff. Someone had arrived on a horse I think from Crow Nation. There's all different peoples and when I looked you know you got there you dropped off your supplies. There was a line of people to sort them you know to say OK you have coats we're going to put them over here. There was cooking going on there were you know women that were in the kitchen that were preparing food for everyone. There was buffalo there was all peaches there was all different types of traditional food that was healthy. The toilets were set up to be what's the word when it's not making well the toilets are waste but where it's I can't think of the word. This is this recycling fashion hopefully you know what I'm trying to say. But this was done with nation collaborating with nation with people collaborating with people without the United States. It wasn't done for the United States it wasn't done for the systems of the United States it was done outside of those systems. So to me I look to that and whether and you know regardless of what happened afterwards and how things are going that can never be taken away. That happened and will continue it will never go away that that has happened those coming together as a nation. So nation building mission building I'm not so I really don't I don't want to say I don't care about United States. I care about the human beings that are here in the plants and the trees with that structure is not very interesting to me and I personally hope it goes away. So the nation building that that is my answer. Yes. Yes. Yeah absolutely I know I've said that a lot you know absolutely and in this moderation but I mean that's the best word I can I can you know, think of the second everything that everyone has said. Yeah I a nation building and solidarity and we certainly saw that it's standing rock and and I and I would say, you know if there's anything to come out of this, you know, horrible pandemic. It has, I feel and I guess I'm speaking personally that it's help get us at least you know some of us and we back to basics right like like what really matters. Storytelling our community solidarity I mean that's in the end that that that's the most important thing me and back back to those values. Well I want to say one issue to to to all of our panelists and to everyone here. You know, again, speaking for myself I really felt like this this, the next panel was like medicine for me. And it really does help to get back to that moral compass, which I believe was also said today. And, and yeah, I mean I certainly hope that and certainly, you know, do everything I can in terms of, you know, trying to help the next generation and current you know as long with current of Native theater and Native dance and performing arts, in terms of telling their stories and opportunities and, and it was one of our goals. And one of my objectives here also at the CUNY Graduate Center, which is prelude festival as a part of this to also work on documenting Native performing arts that's happening and in the, you know, in perhaps a new journal and whatnot that'll be for for Native performing artists. So, so I do hope that can all be part of the of the future. And so, again, one issue to everyone listening. And this is up on your Ted coming to you from the Lenape Island of Manhattan. So take care and have a good evening.