 Well, hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here with David Berceau. You've written several books on Anabaptism. We're here at your home in Southern Pennsylvania. So there's a part of your story that I didn't know until recently, and that is you were a Jehovah's Witness at one point until you became an Anabaptist. Can you just walk me through a little bit of that? How did you join that movement? And yeah, just just tell me a little bit about that. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. My mom was one when I was, you know, a baby. My dad never was, but we all, the whole family were raised Jehovah's Witnesses. And probably about from the time I was eight years old, I was out knocking on doors. Oh, wow. And I was, yeah, extremely active in the Witnesses. I was an elder when I was a young man. They ordained people fairly young. I was in their full-time evangelism that they call pioneering. So I never dreamed I would be leaving it, but I did, yeah. You said full-time in the evangelism department. Did that mean so you didn't have a job? That's like what you did all the time? No, almost none of their ministry is supported. You're self-supported. So they're full-time evangelism, knocking on doors. At that time, they've lowered it, but it was 100 hours a month. You then worked maybe three or four hours a day to support yourself, and then the rest was there. So you lived very poor, but, you know, you were happy to do it for the kingdom. So you said your father never joined. Was he religious? Only slightly. He grew up Catholic, and that's what he and my mom were when Jehovah's Witness called it their home. He was in the military. They were stationed in Alaska. She's up there lonely, and Jehovah's Witness calls at the door, and, you know, he left the Catholic Church, but he never joined the witnesses. And after I left the witnesses, my mom did shortly after, and then later they started attending regularly a just a conventional church, and they did that till the rest of their lives. So how long would have you been with the JWs, and then at what point did you leave, and what led up to you leaving? Well, like I say, from the earliest childhood, I mean, it's far back as a member. I can remember going to the Kingdom Hall when I was five years old. So from there until I was 26. And I left when I was, and my wife, the whole story is both of us. I'll be saying me, but we, she had the same story. Raised a Jehovah's Witness. We were both, you know, in the full-time evangelism. We both left approximately at the same time, and that was when I was 26 years old. So I remember when I crossed the halfway point where, oh, most of my life now has been outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, but for the longest time, yeah, most of my life had been spent in the witnesses. Wow. So what, yeah, like what caused you, I'm assuming you got disillusioned with it somewhere, or was it the doctrines that were being taught? How did you leave, and why? Yeah, it was not over doctrine. In fact, I would say very few of them do, even though most of us outside of the witnesses, you know, we would see errors in their doctrine, but yeah, I still, when I left, assumed their doctrines were correct. It was a process of finally learning, okay, what they were right on and what they weren't. It was the false prophecy, and that is their Achilles' heel from their founder on, just a continual history of making false prophecies about the end of the world. You know, that crisis, I mean, this goes like, say, way back. I was aware of some of it, and they do a good job of explaining it away, but when I went and read his books, which they don't, his books aren't in print, they are probably the only Christian group out there, or, you know, profess Christian group that does not publish the works of their founder. I mean, the Methodist still published John Wesley, you know, we still published Meno-Symons and, you know, Conrad Grebel and all that. Yeah, they're out of print. They don't want their people to read them. And the only reason I was able to read them is my wife had found some at Grodd's sales, and we had stuck them in our library just as a, you know, something on the shelf for, hey, look what we have, you know, we never opened them up, you know. They had predicted the end of the world in 1970, 1975, or thereabouts. I mean, they were, you know, they kind of had their thing. But in 1976, and that's when I was 26 years old, it's like, not only has the end not come, things aren't falling apart like they were supposed to have happened. And I got to wondering, yeah, what did this guy really say? And so I went and read his books, and it's like, wow, I mean, he made so many specific predictions, and that Christ, everything, the millennium would start in 1914, you know, all war would be over, all of this would happen in 1914, and of course, none of that happened. But now the second part of it was not only was he a false prophet, but I saw that the Watchtower Society that I had so much faith in, and just, you know, trust in whatever they said, well, I had their history book, and it's like, wow, they have not been honest about their history, because they made it sound, what they say now is that the time of the end began in 1914, and then it's gonna, you know, Christ's return and the millennium start later. But he was saying the time of the end had begun back in the 1700s, and it was gonna end in 1914, and so it's like, wow, and they were hiding all of this from us, and so I realized, okay, he was a false prophet, I'm following an organization that is not honest. I thought about Jesus' words, beware of false prophets. And I thought now, okay, so my Lord says to beware of false prophets, and if the witnesses are correct, and that means he used a false prophet to restore his church before he came back, and it's like, but he said to beware of them. I mean, can I believe that about my Lord that he would say, beware of false prophets, and then he uses one, and you have to follow this false prophet if you're gonna be in the right place. Wow. It was really two issues, that and the judgmentalness, that the connection there was, they say all the other churches are in darkness, we have the light, no one else is a Christian. Everybody else is gonna be lost if they don't become a Jehovah's Witness. I'm simplifying it, but when the end comes, if they haven't become a Jehovah's Witness by then, there might be a few exceptions. And it's like, now wait a minute, we have all of these skeletons in our closet, and yet we're judging all of these other people. And Jesus said, you know, the same measure you use, you're gonna be measured the same way, and they have a strong teaching on group accountability. So if you're part of a group that has done this or that, then they say, well, you share blood guilt, you know. And I'm thinking, wait a minute, we're judging all of these people saying these horrible things about them and look at all of our errors, you know, even if the churches have a lot of errors, look at all of ours. Hey, if I'm gonna follow Jesus, he made this clear. And I was so certain I could rely on the scriptures. It's not like now, how many years later, it's nearly 50 years later, I'm not like, ooh, the hand didn't come. Boy, you know, it's like, I knew it wasn't. I mean, I knew that they were wrong. I mean, there's no way Jesus would use a false prophet. So I had no doubt when I left, but again, I was assuming their doctrines were all correct, you know, at that point. And that would be typical for, I'd say, most ex Jehovah's Witnesses. So then once you got out, you had to start reevaluating all your actual beliefs, like the actual theology. And then from there, you were able to reconstruct and now, obviously, you wouldn't believe those things anymore. Yeah, it was a long process. And it's what got me into the writing of the early Christians. You know, I finally realized I needed to find out what was the historic faith. That I could obviously read the scriptures for myself. But, you know, for everything they believe, they have proof texts. I mean, they don't just grab it out of nothing. You know, they have these scriptures. So I thought, okay, I'm going to go see what do they believe in the beginning? The people who got the faith from the apostles, what did they believe? And so I spent a year reading the writings of the early Christians up to the Council of Nicaea. That is the first few hundred years of Christianity. And, oh boy, that opened my eyes to so many things. And it made the scriptures make so much sense that instead of having to grab a scripture here and there, the early Christians, it's taking everything. What does the whole New Testament teach on this? And you don't have these problem verses you have to hide. I mean, as a witness, as we always had these problem verses you had to hide. But then, I have to say, evangelicals always had their problem verses, too. You know, that was exciting. But then it was a matter of, okay, so who teaches these things? And that's why I wrote the book, Will the Real Heretics, Please Stand Up. It was one of the reasons I was hoping if somehow God opens the door and this book circulates, hopefully there will be a group that He will lead the book to and they'll say, hey, this is what we believe, you know? And yeah, I started hearing from people saying, hey, this pretty much describes what we believe. So that's what led me to my journey to the Anabaptist. Wow, that is a roundabout way. Yeah, and a long one. I mean, we're talking now about a period of nearly 20 years that all this took place, yeah. Wow. And maybe that's a bit of an encouragement for some of our audience when they're on a journey. You know, sometimes we just want to arrive right now. And you know, it takes time. It does. It takes time to sort it out. And if you, in some ways I'm glad I didn't just drop everything the witnesses believe because if you let go of things that easily, probably whatever new thing you get on, you're going to drop it too, you know? And I thought, no, this time I want to know that what I'm embracing is the historic faith and yeah, I can stay with it. I can train my children in it and they can stay with it and it's going to be there. So going back to your time when you were in the JW movement, what parts about it were a positive experience and then what aspects of it were you say were a negative experience? For me, and this isn't true of everybody who's left the witnesses. For me, my time in it was almost 99% positive. I mean, it was a good experience for me. I didn't leave because I was unhappy about anything or anyone had been unkind to me. That's really interesting. Or anything like that. And it's where I came to a faith in Christ. Now, it wasn't a totally accurate one, but it's where I gave my life to Christ. I want to serve Him with my life and that's never changed. And so I'm grateful for that. It's where, you know, I got a basic understanding of Scripture. And I'm not talking about doctrines now, but just, you know, the Old Testament, all of the history of the Old Testament, they do a lot of Bible reading and study. And I was particularly studious. So, you know, I did a lot and that has stayed with me. I'm glad of that. Some really kind people. I mean, and friends there that, you know, unfortunately, they shun me now, but that's on their part. I mean, there's people that I would still have, you know, very high regard for, you know, in the witnesses. So for me, it was positive. It was just, if it's not true, it doesn't matter how, you know, nice things are. It's like, hey, I want to serve Christ. That's what this is all about, you know, not a nice church experience. Leaving is never pleasant because to question them or to leave, you can't leave peacefully. You know, you're going to be excommunicated. Well, they call it just fellowshiping. Total shunning. Totally will not speak to you. Even your own family doesn't speak to you. Like my sister, I just learned, you know, just had a cancer operation yesterday. Yeah, I learned it, you know, through my children. I wouldn't have even known. I mean, yeah, she can't, she can't talk to me, you know, and it's not personal. And I don't take that way. I realize they're following the teachings of their church. But so people are cut off from their parents, cut off from their children. Years ago, I was selling encyclopedias when I was a full-time evangelist. One of my part-time jobs was selling encyclopedias door to door. And anyway, I was working with this crew and I remember talking to one of the salesmen. He was a little bit further up than I was. Then the boss who was over him and me, I was saying something about, boy, he really likes you. You know, he says a lot of good things about you. And he said, well, I'll tell you the way it is with Mr. Davies. That was his name. He's no longer living. So he said, as long as you're working for him, you're the greatest guy in the world. But the day you quit, you're a dog, you know. And it's almost exactly the way it is with the witnesses. You know, as long as you're a witness and you're an active one like I was, you know, everything is great. The day you leave, they're going to smear your name. I mean, they're never going to say, well, yeah, he was misled, but he had good intentions. No, it is something, you know, they accuse me of like maybe I was committing adultery, maybe, I mean, all kinds of stuff from there on out. I mean, you are just like I say, scum. And so, yeah, it's a very hurtful experience for those who leave. And so most who leave are pretty bitter about it because of that. They basically don't want you to have any legitimacy when it comes to the things you're pointing out. Exactly. They try to destroy any legitimacy you would have. And so to smear your name and to malign your intentions. Okay. Yeah. What was he really after? What was the real, you know, it's never that, oh, he honestly thought we were wrong or was honestly convicted were wrong. You know, he had some ulterior motive, you know. It wasn't a bad experience for me because I never questioned them. I mean, I was the ultimate, you know, Jehovah's Witness never questioned everything, did everything the way you were supposed to until the end, you know. And my leaving was like a three month process when I started digging. Yeah, when I started singing, it was like, wow, there's no way around this. I mean, it is just as clear as it can be. And so I didn't have a long drawn out experience of where people were, you know, mean to me. I pretty much kept it to myself and maybe one close friend. And then I left, I left, you know. A lot of them, it's a drawn out experience. So they go through years of really, you know, being called into meetings, being, you know, really put down and, you know, rebuked and this sort of thing. Yeah, it can be very, very hurtful. I mean, I know an ex-witness, his dad died. No one ever even told him, you know. I mean, his parents, he cut him off because he'd left. He was an adult, you know. And then, I mean, here, years later, they allow no dissension. So when you're a witness to question even a little thing, you know, like, oh, this issue of the watchtower, you know, that argument doesn't seem to be a very good argument. Oh boy, just to say that, you're going to be brought in before the elders. And yeah, you're either going to backtrack or, yeah, you're likely on your way out. Even if you didn't want to be on your way out, you know, then they will force you out. It's like a very strict hierarchy of authority, basically. Like, you can't write a book, even a book that totally is in harmony with their stuff. No one is allowed to write except the people in control of the watchtower. Anabaptist is Mennonites and Amish. We have a lot of groups who sing, you know, and they'll maybe do a recording. No, you could not do that as Jehovah's Witness. If it's not issued from the watchtower, you as an individual couldn't even take witness hymns and sing them as a group and do a recording. Nothing, it all has to be from the watchtower. So there probably is no other group that is as controlling as the witnesses. And so, yeah, if you're a witness and you're starting to question things, like I say, when I saw it, I just left, I'm glad I did. But there are ones who stay in and then they question, sometimes they do it suspiciously and then they get found out and like I say, they go through all kinds of turmoil and, you know, oppression put on them. So it can be very, very hurtful for people in the process of leaving or who want to stay in but dared to question something. Most who come out as agnostics because the experience is so hurtful, they lose their faith in God and in the Bible. Just throw it all out. Yeah, just throw it on. I've had enough of organized religion. I've had enough of everything and that's the really sad, scary thing about it is not just the false doctrines, but the spiritual damage they do. So those who do leave are probably not going to follow Christ once they've left. They're not even going to search because they've had such a hurtful experience. The other thing that I realized I'm really, it was hard at the time it made it really hard. There were no ex-witnesses when I left. I mean, you know, it's like, this is it. I remember the day I left it's like, whoa, where do I go now? I mean, it just seemed like a big empty world and which was really hard but it meant, okay, I have to find some association. Okay, now there's lots of ex-witnesses and they can all connect, you know, through the internet. But hey, you can't be an ex-jova's witness. That can't be your religion. I'm an ex-jova's witness. It has to be Jesus Christ. You know, I have to follow him and the fact the witnesses were wrong, it's no different than the fact the Montanist back in the year 200 were wrong. I mean, that doesn't have anything to do with Jesus Christ. I mean, you know, his church goes on, you know, his kingdom goes on. The fact that some group is wrong, yes, people are hurt, but Jesus is still there. It's not his fault that some group is out here saying something that's not correct. So now I'm curious because you're an Anabaptist now, can you do just a quick comparison of Anabaptist beliefs and Jehovah's Witness beliefs? Yeah, that's got to be interesting. The two things Jehovah's Witnesses have correct that most conventional churches don't are the doctrine of the two kingdoms. They don't use that term. They call it neutrality that we don't get involved in the kingdoms of this world. We don't vote. We don't run for political office. We stay away from all of that and we don't go to war and kill people. So when I left the Witnesses, I wanted to find a church that didn't believe in war. And if I had been in Pennsylvania, I would have probably found the Anabaptist right away and my journey would have been a pretty short one. Yeah, I read about the Anabaptist and this was all interesting, but there was no church I could go to. There were liberal Mennonite general conference churches, but that was it. So then kind of going from what you just said there, what would be the proper response then from Anabaptists or just people who believe the Bible when they encounter Jehovah's Witnesses? What should we do? I mean, we've all had that experience, right? Whether you knock on your door. Whether you want it or not, you're going to have the experience. What should we do? I wish I could tell you a thing. Oh, if you say this, you will be able to help them come out. Now, people have all kinds of things that you might be able to stump a Jehovah's Witness at the door or something like that. That's not going to help them spiritually, like you say. I would say the thing to do is leave an impression that they understand that there are loving people out there. Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe, and I believed it, that nobody has Christian love, agape love, except Jehovah's Witnesses. So if you're nasty to them, well, that's just going to reinforce this idea that the churches are also wicked and all of that. But this is the thing I think you can be hopeful about. Jehovah's Witnesses have the highest dropout rate of any sect or church. They grow because they also have one of the highest conversion rates, but they have a lot of people dropout. So the person you're talking to, there's a decent chance at some point they are going to be questioning. And I remember the people who were kind to me when I left the Witnesses that some of them I actually even looked up. You know, that had made an impression on me when I talked to them at their door that they seem to understand their Bible and that sort of thing. Of course, the people are nasty. I mean, yeah, I certainly, they were of no help at all. But unless you have some time and you're really well prepared, which I don't know, it's the best use of time. I wouldn't encourage someone to try to sit down and, oh yeah, I'm going to try to, you know, convert you on this. They have all of their proof texts down, you know. And when you try to show them other things in their mind, you're twisting the scriptures, you know. It doesn't matter even if it makes more sense than their list of proof texts. So I think, yeah, just being kind and maybe if they're talking, often they'll be talking about the kingdom of God. You might say, yeah, you know, our church really teaches a lot about the kingdom of God. And that's the first thing, you know, that I put the kingdom first in my life and, you know, and maybe just tell them a little bit about, you know, Anabaptist. Yeah, you know, we don't go to war. We don't get involved in the countries of this world. You're just leaving a seat if later, you know, they do leave. But unfortunately, yeah, I wish there was a way. I've talked to a lot of ex-witnesses. I have yet found a single ex-witness who left because someone at their door, you know, said one of these clever things. You know, like I say, you can stump them on something like that, but yeah, you left because, no, that's not why anyone left. It's things that they see while they are a witness. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I really appreciate that. That is very interesting. Well, thank you, Reagan. It's been great to talk to you. Yeah, well, hopefully this deeply impacts somebody.