 Hi, my name is Sandy Baird and I am a citizen activist in Burlington And we're here today to talk to Kurt Mehta who is an attorney in town and also a scholar and a commentator What's going on in our nation sometimes in our city a lot? So here we are to talk about the current state of our city and also our nation And I guess so we should begin Kurt if you don't mind with what recently happened I believe in the house today with the announcement that the house and the republicans in the house have stopped Aid going to Vladimir Zelensky. Is that what's happening or what's going on here? Yeah, which means what for the Ukraine war? Well, it puts Ukraine in a dire situation. I think the What happened the the government of Ukraine the leadership in Ukraine were expecting a flow of aid that would Allow them to continue fighting against Russia. Mm-hmm, and it appears that that aid Depending on how you want to term it is essentially being held hostage by Leadership in the Republican Party that are placing conditions on this aid They're not outright saying no to mr. Zelensky, but they're saying that there's a domestic matter That's of greater importance than the Russia-Ukraine war, which is Security on the southern border of the United States There's still a tremendous amount of migration taking place without adequate Review and scrutiny at the southern border namely Mexico, of course we're talking about here And there are thousands of individuals and families that are coming over the border and the southern states that are border states are at a point where they are Expressing that they're at crisis levels of migration coming through and The Republican leadership has clearly stated that they will not Continue to give billions of dollars of aid to other countries and in this case We're talking about you, you know Ukraine funding Ukraine if no deal is worked out that will at least address border security And that just happened today. Is that correct? And although Zelensky is here in this country But he might very well go home empty-handed. That's very possible. Zelensky's been here several times And has been successful in the past. He's even addressed Congress hasn't he? That is correct. Yeah He has been successful securing money and aid and weapons From the United States different classes of weapons some of which have been controversial But he has gotten mostly what he's asked for Mostly not everything But this time it looks like possibly he may not be successful Does the Republicans stand strong on this one issue of border security at the southern States border, okay, so without this aid Zelensky is also saying What that Ukraine will lose this war, right? Yeah, I think a lot of military experts have said it's already lost Well, they judge that there was a there was a big to-do made starting this early the summer about a counteroffensive right that Ukraine was going to Spearhead Against the Russian army and they it appeared in the beginning that there was a bit of a stalemate That they were able to achieve remember f-16s also have now been added to the arsenal of the Ukraine How about F-35s? I don't think F-35s have yeah, yeah, you know, there's been talk and then they much to Much pressure was applied on the Germans to provide certain types of tanks Which the the new Chancellor of Germany knew for a year anyway Schultz was against initially transferring that weapons Technology to Ukraine, but there was a significant amount of pressure that we as the Americans We put on on the Germans and they provided that new class of tank. So it diversified Ukraine's Arsenal the the counteroffensive though is running out of ammunition literally and figuratively speaking right and It's at a point right now between the attention of the world being focused on the Israeli Gaza Conflict and and the fact that border security is being Placed as a priority over foreign aid military aid it appears that you the Ukrainians are going to be in a difficult situation it's going to be a tough winter and I think it's essentially what President Putin of Russia has Skillfully planned I'm gonna say Planned planned. Do you think he really planned that the US would stop aid to Ukraine? I don't think so. I think the you know maybe took that into consideration I think that that was probably put into taking into consideration largely for one thing if you look at several conflicts In the past 40-50 years that the United States has been involved in whether we look at the Taliban we look at Syria Syria, but Iraq especially especially the the Afghan War because because it started in 2003 and we're 20 years. I I I think Mr. Putin's calculation was that at some point, you know, this is going to be a war of attrition The Russians are always going to be there Physically because they're physically they're geographically located there at some point America is going to tire of The number one there's going to be fatigue in terms of the stories about Ukraine There was a lot of excitement in the beginning and a lot of empathy and sympathy for the Ukrainian people in the United States but at some point that the United States is going to tire because it's not on our shores and Similar to Afghanistan after about you know 18 19 years, you know, we basically gave it back to the Taliban said you can have it That's true. Yeah, you know again much to the chagrin of you know many humanitarian groups women in that country as well as different minorities but I think Mr. Putin has a similar calculation and that he thinks he that at some point that the West is going to get tired of Continuously providing this aid and there have been also a lot of allegations about corruption in Ukraine before the before the conflict With respect to Europe Ukraine was considered one of the more one of the countries that had extremely alarming levels of corruption The case You have a situation then where you know billions of dollars all of a sudden are coming in in a country that They're biggest source of income prior to the Prior to the conflict was a gas pipe that that went from Russia to Western Europe I think they earned about four billion dollars in leasing fees for this pipeline And now you have billions of dollars of aid coming from different sources the biggest of which is the United States that Leap that you know in an environment where there's a high amount of corruption that can have you know some very interesting results and I think that is a concern also with respect to this flow of aid that's gone there Republicans in the house have brought up this issue You know so I think In part because of the conflict in Gaza and Israel and in part the southern border and in part the the issue of Of corruption in Ukraine There are questions being asked now that weren't asked before Right, but there's also something else that I've always suspected is that The both parties want this war in the Ukraine both parties want the war I'm sorry by parties you mean I mean both the Democrats and the Republicans have a similar Foreign policy there are many people who argue that there is one party, which is called the war party Yeah, there is not much those are the political parties and in fact I believe that's the establishment of the two political parties not the people on the ground I've always suspected that the people like you and me normal people if you had a vote on whether to send all this Money to Zelensky or even if you had a vote on the current war Between Israel and the Palestinians. I don't think many Americans are interested And putting in putting our national treasure into these endless wars And I believe that from the bottom of my heart The Americans are real sick of the war in Ukraine Yeah, and they never were that much into it certain certain Consensualities were yeah, well the the support for the war has dwindled. I think again, you know If it ever was really there when the invasion first took place There's no in March of no, there was no vote, but in March of at least March of I believe it was 21 22. I can't yeah Yeah, I think it was 22 I think there was a lot of you know I mean fanfare may not be the right word, but you know, there was a lot of interest at least on the part of the American public with respect to the invasion, I think the There was a lot of talk at the time that you know, it's the old Hitler argument Whether it applied to Saddam Hussein or you know anyone else or Milosevic We don't stop them. They're gonna take all of Europe or they're gonna take all the middle over all the Middle East So, you know, we can't be placed in the Neville Chamberlain Position so, you know, that always gets people riled up, but I think his time has gone on and you know They were and I'm quoting this from a television show. So don't anyone write and say that I stole something but What was sold as World War three initially Or the start of World War three has with the way the fighting has taken place It's been more like World War one and that we're talking about French warfare No clear No clear progress on either side and in a society that we live in and much of the world lives and now in terms of Wanting quick results and something packaged and given to the public as a victory or a loss That's not really that that's not really interesting a War that's at a stalemate for a couple of years and I think there is a certain level of fatigue With respect to news from the Ukraine Absolutely, but I know I mean the money that goes along with it. I always thought I Guess the way that Tucker Carlson put out always was they asked it We asked a different question and he did too. Maybe that's why he was fired He would ask the question is this war in the interest of our country the United States of America I think most people if they were asked that question. I think we'd be in a lot fewer wars And if we're really looking out for our own country our own citizens But I think what happens is you know, we always fall into you know, the other side that's when I say side I'm not blaming Republicans or Democrats. I'm referring to the pro-war You know, they're always able to effectively make this argument like I called the Hitler argument that if we don't stop Noriega, he's gonna take over the world Castro Castro, you know even you know countries, you know in Central America, you know They're gonna somehow become the next Nazi Germany or Soviet Union. Yeah. Well, that's a bigger power Yeah, but I mean some of these other countries that you know when you know, we compared Noriega to Adolf Hitler, you know I mean, let's get real or even Saddam Hussein. Yeah, right Saddam had a little more fire power, but not as much as we were saying that he was right So it's often a pretty you get a certain base riled up and say that okay Well, you know, we don't want to be looked at as Neville Chamberlain Maybe we do need to take it out Take the war over there before it comes here and that's been a very successful argument for the pro-war You know industry in this country as well as politicians, right? But I okay being said look our country, you know Nearly bankrupt. We have a lot of problems here if anyone lives in any, you know anything resembling an urban environment We see that you know, we have lots of problems and when and cleaning Burlington Which is sort of our lovely town of Burlington. Yeah, which we were going to talk about all sure I mean, but when you put out numbers like hundred billion and fifty billion and forty billion You know, these are numbers that can take care of a lot of social issues and injustices in our own country on our own shores and You know, we write these checks and we hear these numbers as if they're nothing and they're going overseas and I think after a while there's a certain level of fatigue You know on the part of the American public When they see when they go outside, you know, and they see that there's a homeless problem There's a drug problem. There are people Americans that are not being taken care of and then we're writing these essentially these blank checks you know with 12 digits in some cases, right, you know if I have that right Without a whole lot of accountability none and then the results are Lousy lousy. Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean it seems like the war is over in a lot of ways the Russians have occupied that Territory of Ukraine. They're even gonna hold elections. I've heard in the Russian speaking areas that they have Apparently taken over Don boss They've already succeeded in taking the Crimea. Yeah, so I probably think They won right if if mr. Zelensky goes back to Kiev without a aid deal from he's going to apparently Yeah, but if that does indeed happen, you know, and at the last minute there isn't some kind of Arrangement that is arrived at I think I think they're gonna I think the Ukrainians are gonna have to start Recalculating their goals. Yeah as to what But they can get they can get there have been claims on the left that Mr. Putin Sees that a Trump possible Trump Re-administration in January of 2025 will frame the conflict differently and that the Trump administration would take part in Negotiate yes, he said so Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, now the only yeah, the only thing standing in between isn't a an election Which is correct, but if you look at the polls, they're not helpful to buy now They're not and and I think that's and mr. Putin is studying the that and What it seems like right now are like prevailing wins Very carefully, and I think that's in his calculations. Trump has always been a Negotiator with Putin always Yes, I mean even in his first administration, right. He's never wanted war with Russia He's always wanted to business with Russia, right? Well, I mean, they're two sides, right I'm trying to be objective. No, no, no, I'm not saying what's right or wrong, please I don't know what's right or wrong. Yeah, but I do know that based on his record He has always thought we should deal with Russia and that and in his mind that will avoid Russia sliding over into an alliance with China, which is really not a great thing for the world opponents of Mr. Trump, yeah, or would probably say that he's not a negotiator, but a puppet of Putin So those are the two those but those are the two sides But that those are the two, you know narratives that are out there that either he's a negotiator or that he's a puppet of Vladimir yeah, but that that under it underestimates the intelligence Because Trump is not a moron and neither is Putin what Trump wants is always in his entire life He wants to do business That I'm not gonna disagree with yeah, right, and that's what he wants with Russia Anyway, he also wants to avoid an alliance with between Russia and China, which is not such a dopey idea Yeah, but anyway seems to be happy. Let's go on because you said an interesting thing that while all this money goes to Ukraine all this money goes to foreign wars. Yeah, what's happening in our city? Yeah, our city is experiencing not unlike a lot of other Larger cities in our country. We're experiencing a uptick a significant uptick in violent crime theft There's rampant drug use If you don't believe me on that just you don't even have you can close your eyes and listen to all the sirens Yes, unfortunately the people you know overdosing on on illegal narcotics and We have not been immune to these problems that a lot of much bigger cities like San Francisco like Portland West Coast like Seattle and you know, New York that a lot of these cities have Unfortunately been facing and it's come to our little neck of the woods And it can be seen. It's it's very visible in a small town so we are having you know these same problems and Lack of funding lack of adequate law enforcement all all these issues that you know bigger cities Are facing all of which increased it seemed during the lockdowns, but I want to talk specifically For a minute about the problems with the police that I've seen. Yeah, because to me They're inaccessible. I Try on numerous occasions to to call the police department. You can't get through that a person Yeah, you get tick tick click here click there click everywhere and at the end you don't talk to a person When is that ever happened to a city that you cannot call the police? I mean you're told in an emergency to call 911, but that's not the police No, it's not and it's only for emergencies So I had a tip the other day on a crime and I was asked by the person who gave me the tip to call The police station and try to talk to a detective or the chief. I couldn't get through You know, you know as I said click here click here at the end nothing It wasn't an emergency. I wasn't gonna call 911 about it Right, but you needed some kind of intervention. It wasn't something you're gonna solve yourself Investigators of a crime right right, okay another and my clients both of us are lawyers We have clients who need the cops on occasion of course they confirm that there's no way How can you have a city where you can't call the police? Yeah, I was this is the most When I really became awake to this I was told informed that one of my clients A new American without any language skills. Okay was being held in the police station This is 11 o'clock on Friday night. Okay, and that she was being questioned by them Right, I wanted to call her and say look at you don't you have the right right to remain silent You are in the United States of America. Yeah, and you have a right to talk to me a lawyer. Yeah, I Couldn't get through I will and this is 11 30 on a Friday evening. I went down there and sat in the parking lot Circled the police station to see if there was an open door a dispatcher nothing nothing Can you believe this? So one of my colleagues joined me in the parking lot? We're looking at what we're gonna do here out comes a cop and I said I am who I am I'm Sandy Barrett. I'm a lawyer and I want to talk to my client. This was the quote. He said lawyers are not permitted Wow, can you believe that I was tall-shocked so the Thought that was Friday on Monday the chief was being confirmed. I went to city hall to confirm the chief, right? He's a man that I have At least mostly Trusted I wanted him to become the permanent chief. So I went down and I told that story nevertheless I said I am voting to confirm the police chief Okay, and then I left he came out and apologized to me and said this won't happen again You still cannot get anyone on the phone. So how do you have I understand the problem and you know Look, I had my car broken into you know this point about five months ago And you know contacted the police and I didn't there wasn't any real a large I think I lost a pair of you know, nice glasses. That's about it So those are expensive for many people. Yeah. Yeah, no, they weren't they weren't cheap, but but that being said I I You know exercise self-help and had to just deal with my own problem, you know got my card, you know lock fixed But there's there was it wasn't even worth Reporting, you know, I was told to report something online So I mean but but let's I guess you know We can probably go on and on about stories that you know you and I have experienced as well as some of our friends and loved ones, but Where did this? Problem, when did this start? You know, you've been in the city here I also was a state's attorney. I was your prosecutor for a while Never yeah, never have I seen that until recently I've been you know, three o'clock in the morning had to be called to the police station to get one of my DWI clients out of jail and take them home drunk, right, but always Always was able to access so what changed what changed I don't know exactly well I mean they will say yes, it's due to in fact that is what the phone message says due to staff shortages There should be never staff shortages Which would amount to police? Station closures, right nuts, right, and I really don't sad I don't happen during COVID right. Yeah a lot of people at least you know Again, we're talking about Burlington Vermont specifically a lot of people were talking about a fateful city council vote a few years ago to Cap to do the police right and essentially yeah to ride You know a popular wave at the time of defund the police, but they placed a cap on the number of police officers and Others are blaming that Decisive vote in the predicament of the city Do you think that you know holds water is that a valid yes? I do and in fact I think that heavily influenced the Democratic caucus the other day Which selected Joan Shannon as the main Candidate for the mayoral the Democratic candidate for the mayor seat in so I understand her her claim is Against defunding that has strengthened her position, right, but yes, that's what happened That's when it happened that the police experienced Dimmunition in its numbers. I think and this problem of nodding and having enough police in the city Maybe maybe that's the case even so. Why isn't one of the most important? Positions that should have been maintained to answer the damn phone at the cop at the police station, right? What is it okay? What would a what would a woman do in a domestically abusive situation who the hell? She's supposed to go yeah, what about a new American who doesn't know anything about 9-11, right, right? What are they gonna do? Yeah, not just new Americans old Americans. Yeah. Yeah, so what are people going to do? So do you think please so I mean you know one of the things we always do on the show You know even when we're talking about world affairs. We start we try to talk about solutions not just pointing out problems and deficiencies do you think aside from that vote and and capping the number of police officers during a Precarious time in our country's history, you know that with the influx of you know new types of drugs that came from the West Coast that have had you know an adverse impact on our population Do you think other things could have been done differently? Privates, you know, I've heard everything in this town from hiring private security until the numbers of police could be beefed up I've even heard of people talk about having citizen Militias because of the gun was that this is this is real a real problem, too Yeah, okay, so I go often to talk with the mayor on Wednesdays at the bagel bakery He now doesn't do them anymore because he's gonna be up for election anyway Okay, so and there's always a huge amount of people there because as they get to talk to the mayor Which is a very good thing that Maro did so I go often Yeah, but I listen more than I do anything the dangerous thing is that Maro sits there He doesn't have control over this situation Obviously no mayor does because it's a national situation the rise of drugs the rise of abusive People in the streets because they're all many of them are drug abusers. Yeah, the rise of crime He doesn't have control fully over that. I don't blame him honestly. Well, I'm not saying that wait a minute Wait a minute, but the thing that bothers me the most is what the citizens are then asking about They are so disturbed by this as you might guess sure that they are asking basically for a police day They would like the Constitution to be broken and put people in jail I think these you know Extreme measures yeah are coming from a population that's desperate, but yeah largely this was a largely Crime-free town. I know violent crime. Yes, you know, you could get your bicycle stolen, but there wasn't not much No, but not much more than that and that has changed into a nightmare a large city type right, right, but Any time we only have a little bit of time left It is the most serious issue facing this city and I do not see What's gonna make it better because what the citizens are asking for essentially is that the Constitution in some ways be merely scrapped I mean they want long sentences for what for people yelling in City Hall Park. They would love it. Yeah, but it's not Constitutional. Yeah, well, I think people's you know people are concerned about their safety more Okay, I want to say something and the safety, you know look if people are trying to raise children. Yes, I don't blame anybody I do not blame anybody. I'm just issuing some caution here, right Ben Franklin said you You can't have security and Liberty yeah You Lose both right if you demand total security what you're gonna do is destroy Liberty, right? Yeah, on the flip side. Yeah, I mean since you're quoting great people. I'll quote You know the German writer and philosopher go to yeah, you know on Wolfgang von Goethe and he said You know if I had to make a choice and I'm paraphrasing between Justice and order I'll select order. Yeah, but he was your German Okay, maybe we can add not yeah, so let's do that. Okay. Thank you. See you in a couple in a month sure