 So I suppose just to get us started, Minister, I thought I'd just start maybe by setting the scene and giving a bit of context before we get underway. I suppose in the last number of years in the Eurozone, we've had what I would describe as a period of relative stability and relative growth, but nonetheless, we have faced three crises. The first being Brexit, and although Brexit occurred in 2016, Brexit of course only took effect in January 2020, second of those being of course the COVID-19 pandemic, which necessitated an almost complete shutdown of the economies within the Eurozone, and the third of those being Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. In response to that, central banks reacted, they raised interest rates in response to inflation, and here we are today now in 2024, where although the Eurozone economy has proved remarkably resilient, I think you might agree that some of the forecasts and some of the predictions are not as one would have hoped for this year, and many expect that Germany, the Eurozone's largest economy, may in fact be in recession. So I suppose the first question to you, Minister, to get us started, is the glass half full or is it half empty? Glass is always half full, always half full. Glass is always half full because we have to be in a position where we can talk about the progress that we have both made and the progress that we can make. I would make the case that given the circumstances that we have been in, that stability is a remarkable achievement to be in a currency zone where we are sharing a currency across 20 countries and deal with a pandemic, and then to be in a situation where we are the global reserve currency most closely affected by the war and still have economic stability and still have more people at work than ever before and still have economies that are growing. That is a strong rationale for saying the glass is half full. However, it would be inauthentic and less than honest not to recognize that we do have very significant challenges ahead, but they are challenges that I am confident we can, with good leadership and common sense, respond back well too. In terms of your priorities for the first half of the year for the Eurogroup, what are some of the key issues that you are focusing on? I always talk about three Cs, the C of Coordination, the C of Competitiveness and then the C of the currency itself. Coordination is our efforts within the Euroarea to coordinate budget policy, to get the balance right between supporting employment and getting inflation down, the C of Competitiveness and in particular the relationship between Competitiveness and Capital Markets and how we need to deepen our Capital Markets within the Euroarea, make more progress towards the Capital Markets Union and then the C of the currency itself, the future of the currency, how we can hopefully set the scene for the early entry of Bulgaria into the Euroarea and how we can continue with our work regarding the digital future of the currency. So I pick out those three Cs, amidst all of the other things that we are working on has been particularly important. We might address each of those in turn, but I suppose just starting with the Coordination piece, what is the general advice that you are giving in terms of fiscal policy for Member States? That fiscal policy has to be in a restrictive stance, which is very difficult at the moment, given the many political social pressures that we are facing. We, however, have to be taking steps now to reduce borrowing. If you have a deficit to make it smaller, if you have a surplus to keep it and make it bigger. We have to be in that position because, critically, we are now in, I hope, the final phase of the journey of getting inflation down and getting inflation down. At this last part of the journey could well be the hardest and it's really important that budget policy does not add to demand within economies and make it harder to get inflation down. Of course, it's particularly important and demanding that, as we are doing that, there's a few areas that we still need to keep on investing in and that balance between current expenditure and capital expenditure is a fine line to walk at the moment. But the value of the Eurogroup is we have a better chance of making that journey and completeness if most countries are trying to do it together. And I suppose a lot of people would say, in this new era and in particular over the next couple of decades, there will be a number of investment needs the member states would have. I mean, one can think of the green transition, obviously moving to the digital transition, as you've mentioned, and also increased defence spending in response to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine. How do we square the circle in that sense of having what we need as a restricted fiscal policy now, but yet at the same time, we need to have this investment in our future that we're going to need over the next couple of decades? To priorities, we have to make next-generation EU work. We have to be able to prove that the co-funded budget instrument of such scale, hundreds of billions of Euro, that is next-gen EU, we have to prove to each other that that can work and prove that that is playing a role in increasing the medium-term growth potential of the Euro area. And secondly, it is why the work in relation to Capital Markets Union is so important. Other parts of the world, the Gulf States, China and America, can rely on their private sector to do things with their levels of savings that we're not in a position to be able to do here in Europe. And while this is a journey that will continue to take time to complete, we have to accelerate our progress on it. And that's a project that I'm working on with my fellow finance ministers at the moment. So make next-generation EU work, take further steps in relation to Capital Markets Union is our best chance of resolving those two kind of competing imperatives. And just on next-generation EU, a question I thought I'd ask you, you've reminded me of a presentation that Joseph Stiglitz actually gave to the Institute a few years ago. And one of the things he suggested was that obviously the response of the European Union, as I said, was very, very quick, very forthright in terms of agreeing to next-generation EU fund and targeted also, which I'd say would differ, would say with the United States, where it was just, say, checks in the post and things like that. But at the same time at the beginning, I think there was a lot of political energy expended in terms of agreeing the fund at the beginning. So I suppose a question, maybe one thing that I've been thinking about and one thing that Professor Stiglitz suggested, would it be an idea to, say, invest now in negotiating these structures permanently within to the European Union architecture so that if we, say, counter-cyclical type fund, where if you invest the money now, and I know we do this with a single resolution fund, for example, in the banking sector, but investing the money now so that we build up those reserves and are able to disperse it then in the bad times. And I suppose then you wouldn't have either the situation of common borrowing, which was quite unpalatable to certain members, so it's just an idea to put out there. So, I mean, these are ideas that are frequently generated, but out there for public debate within the European Union. Of course, we're a collection of democracies, so it's so important that we're willing to evaluate different ideas and discuss them with each other. But I think in terms of practically making something like that happen and looking at how it can be moved ahead, it does go back to why next generation EU is so important. If there is an appetite to do something further in the future, an appetite to create another budget instrument, one that could be funded in a different way, there's no way around us. We have to make what is in place at the moment work first. We have to show that, for example, Irish money that we are using, we are now a net contributor to the European Union, net contributors have to be able to see that the money they put into next generation EU, the debt that we are raising together has been put to the use that we want it to be put to. And then those countries that are receiving the money equally, they want to be able to show to their citizens that they're using that money in a way that has genuine value and can help us all grow quicker. So, ideas like that will be continue to be generated, continue to be debated and evaluated for practically speaking, we won't get to the point of anything new happening until we can show that the historic agreement that led to next generation EU was actually being implemented in the way we want. And I believe that will happen, by the way. In terms of Capital Markets Union, it was discussed at the last meeting of the Eurogroup, as I know, you're going to bring a proposal to the Euro Summit. Is there any detail you can provide at the stage on that? Well, actually, the document has been well leaked to a number of news outlets across Europe, so it's no longer a secret. You can all easily access it in any digital format that you want. And it is a whole collection of really important interventions that we're using to try to invite the next Commission to take further action on in the next mandate. It covers often an array of different areas. If I was to pick out two that I think are particularly important is what we can do to further make use of securitization options here within the European Union and in particular financially, what we can do there. And secondly, a really interesting idea that's developing regarding a common European savings product, where we would encourage young people like yourselves to invest into products that would be available all across Europe, that would be used in turn to support and invest in particular elements of our common European future. There are just two ideas, but it's a multi-page document available on all good financial and current affairs websites as we spin. And available soon to the Euro Summit. And available officially at the Eurozone somewhat soon too. Just in terms of a couple of markets, and just from some of the conversations we would have in here, it would seem a lot of the architecture is already in place in terms of the action plan that was proposed by the Commission. A lot of legislation agreed. But so much of this, I think, is cultural as well in the sense that obviously in Ireland, perhaps we have the tendency to put our savings in banks. We don't have the same tendency, perhaps in the European Union or in the Euro area, to invest as they say would in the United States as a general practice. How do you think we can bridge some of those cultural barriers that would mean citizens and businesses would be more likely to invest in different types of assets, which ultimately is a good investment. I think that is a great question. And ultimately, that will be a question of how we change cultural preferences through education as well. I mean, it is something that will take so much time to make a difference too. One of the reasons, for example, there is such a different attitude towards equity markets in the United States is they have a very different attitude to risk and they have very different expectations of what the state will do for them. Here in Europe, here in Ireland, we have a different tolerance for risk, and we have different expectations regarding what the state will make available to you later in life. For all of those reasons, it means we have a very different attitude towards our private capital and to the use of that capital within an economy. So that, Dara, is one that it will be, it is going to take a lot of time to do. But if I was to pick out one area, which I think is capable of making a difference in Ireland and in other countries, it is to plan in relation to auto enrolment. Dara Humpfries is working on that moment. My colleague, the Minister of Social Protection, because while that might deepen your tolerance for risk, it will create deeper pockets of capital within a country. And how that capital might be invested and how that could affect the supply of capital within national economies, I think is something that is really interesting and could have a very big impact then on capital markets within the European Union. And just getting back to the overall point of competitiveness, I suppose just in terms of something that will be common to a lot of Euro area countries, I think is this issue of energy security in response to Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. Are you satisfied with the steps that are being taken across the Eurozone in that space at the moment, or do you think there is more we can do? Well, I think we should take great confidence from our efforts with regard to energy security. But energy security and energy competitiveness are related, but they are different concepts. So we have performed within the European Union, our energy ministers, our regulators, our energy suppliers performed a miracle at the end of 2020 and in 2022 and in 2023, a miracle. The transition that happened across so many economies to move away from imported Russian gas and source energy in other ways was an extraordinary policy achievement. And as frequently the case, really big changes that lead to the absence of a negative sometimes don't get the recognition and analysis that they merit. That's energy security. The issue of energy competitiveness, the availability of low-cost energy is just a gigantic object that we've an awful lot of work to do on. And if there's any group of people that know the origins of the European Union, it's all of you, you remember that the early phases of the European Union was also about energy, was about coal and the sharing of coal. And it feels to me that this is something that we have a huge work to do on in the time ahead that of course is ultimately tied into as well, but not always completely aligned with the need for us to be a move to net zero and how we're going to green our energy supply here in Europe. So it is a project worth devoting a life to to see how we can make progress on that. We will, but it is perhaps the biggest economic project at the moment that can have an effect on what our medium-term competitiveness will be. And then on the point of the common currency, I suppose firstly how do you think the Euro area can grow the Euro status as an international reserve currency? So I believe for example it's now a matter of when Bulgaria joins, not if. I believe we're underestimating the growth potential of the Euro area in terms of accession. New options and possibilities I think will open up in the time ahead in terms of though the future growth of the Euro as a global reserve currency. I think there's two elements of it that would be so important. Number one, what steps we can take to increase the growth potential of the Euro area in the medium term and secondly it undoubtedly goes back to the question but to me earlier on Dara regarding work that we can do in the capital markets of the Euro area and I think there are the two pieces in the jigsaw regarding how we can bolster the attractiveness of the Euro and the global stage. And one thing you also mentioned is the the digital Euro and I actually I gave a presentation to a group of students last week on a paper that I'd done for the institute shameless plug of a paper I'd done for the institute on the digital Euro. I was a bit surprised that the lack of enthusiasm actually from a lot of the students in relation to this but yet at the same time I think a lot of people had invested money in crypto. Well they know the value of the digital Euro and the statement like that. Yeah well I always remember the quote from Andrew Bailey the the governor of the Bank of England who said you should only be prepared to invest in crypto if you're prepared to lose all your money which is what he said so but I suppose just in terms of the digital Euro I think from from that presentation and what we've seen in here I think the biggest challenge is I think developing a convincing use case for it particularly within the Euro area I think in the United States as well where where there's discussions ongoing. How do you think we can convince people of that use case? That idea is an idea that is about the future and the idea the reason why we have so much of a challenge making the case for it now is it's getting ready for a world that has yet to arrive. We have a world that is rapidly approaching which will be so much more digital than the world of today. We've a world that will be rapidly approaching in which other global reserve currencies will be in a digital format and in which currencies and means of payments will be available that are not backed by states and not backed by projects like the European Union and in that world we will need a digital Euro because you will need a trusted means of payment and a trusted store of value and the states and the ECB and the Euro system will need the Euro area because in the absence of our currency being digital it will weaken the value and need of the Euro as a transmission mechanism of economic policy. Now of course that argument is not one you can fit into a tweet it doesn't easily lend itself to a nice Instagram or to a short news bulletin or soundbites but that's not the reason not to get ready for us because there will come a time in which you as citizens of the Euro area and the European Union will realise this is why I need us and we have to do that we can get ready for that moment now but still a number of years away and we've time to make that case during that moment during that journey. Okay very good let's get some questions in people have them so my colleague Keen has the microphone I think I can see everyone but if I can Keen we'll point into it as a own clarity first and if you might just identify your name and your affiliation as well please. Sure own clarity central statistics office and you mentioned the expansion of the EU or the Euro area specifically well kind of both and do you have any thoughts on the architecture of the EU and the Euro area the constant challenge of the EU is speaking with coherence and getting consensus in a efficient way and how can we increase that in the context of a growing EU or Euro area. Yeah so Owen thank you very much and I know this sounds really nerdy but I'm a great fan of the central statistics office I think you do phenomenal work phenomenal work helping us really objectively understand our country and the amazing work you then do you've done in recent years communicating your work is super so there we go that was a really nerdy thing to say wasn't it Sarah good I love to see you so as well yeah yeah yeah yeah so then yes if you look at the last phase of a change in decision making within the European Union which was in particular the Lisbon Treaty that the catalyst for that was the growth and the scale of the European Union and the number of new members that came in to join us so what are my thoughts in relation to the architecture of an expanded Euro area in particular firstly there are some areas in which I don't believe will ever move away from the principle of unanimity and there would be particularly economic areas that are so core to how nations conduct their work with their citizens I'd be surprised if in the time ahead we moved away from the principle of unanimity the good news is even with that maintenance and focus and consensus we still find ways to make progress and even if it takes longer to get to that agreement that agreement is more durable like if you look at the history of the European Union if you look at the history of the Euro area how many times in those areas of policy in which unanimity is needed have you seen the EU go backwards really really rarely if never and even if our pace of decision making within the Euro area can sometimes be more gradual and slower because we need unanimity it's far more resilient and far more durable and my sense of the world that we're in with the volatility that we are facing is that durability will have sorry I smile when I say durability because I've been talking a lot about durable relationships in another session will have even greater value and then in relation to changes and decision making as the European Union gets bigger I think it's inevitable there will be a big discussion on that that discussion will happen but I perhaps will confine myself the saying don't underestimate the value of unanimity don't underestimate there's a competitive advantage for the Euro or that the member states have a durable relationship with each other as well while I think it's a highly durable relationship and very modern very good I see I think it's Neil at the back is it yeah hey Neil Neil Stokes PWC my question is around the sort of corporation tax landscape and sort of how do you see the next sort of a few years panning out in terms of obviously there's objections or in the US with the republicans that's slowing down respect to pillar one and then respect to pillar two how do you see that playing out for Ireland so um so firstly I I I believe the only game in town is the OECD process and we have to find ways of making it work because in the absence of the OECD progress process which I spend five years working on in the absence of that making process making progress the risk for instability and risk in corporate tax policy is significant I think it could be a real risk and while that might be good news frankly or tax professionals and lawyers because of the complexity and the difficulties of coordination and getting consistency and national tax policy the trade and economic growth it would be bad news so I think we have to continue to remain committed to us of course it is something that's becoming more challenging you know in the US with you know with with some of the views that have been raised there but I think here in Europe we have to continue to show our commitment to the implementation of the minimum race and then in relation to the reallocation of taxing rights continue to work creatively with global partners on us because I think in the absence of that OECD framework real challenges could emerge in the future of global corporate tax cooperation so thank you very much for your question okay I see if I if I have the same approach to PWC as I do to the CSO I don't have to ask is there anybody here for me why I don't have to work my way around all the accounting practices in the country otherwise I just get in trouble it's a little too early for me to think about what my legacy is going to be you know to be honest with you but the removal of those two words was a really big deal a very big deal for Ireland and a really critical moment for the process in the OECD moving on it was a big it was it was a a day I won't forget for a long time and just in terms of the the sentiment from some of the big companies here given that the tax rate I believe it has now moved to 50 percent no no adverse reaction to that really good companies like PWC colleagues like Neil here and the work he does is really important in terms of explaining to cut to investors what's going on and so on the big learning I have from all of that work though over a number of years is the value of predictability the value of clear communication and minimizing surprises no government can ever rescind the right for unilateral action when it comes to taxation and no government particularly a European government particularly a government that has such a powerful independent organization like the revenue commissioner can ever give indications that would be you know imperiled the budget process but doing all you can to be predictable clear and certain regarding how tax policy would evolve that's the secret of us that's the real importance and we have to just relentlessly continue with that approach and it's something the Department of Finance is really excellent us and it's something that Minister McGrath really understands the value of and is very very good at doing very good I saw some questions here as well yeah there's nothing over there and thanks Pascal for coming along my name is Ciaran O'Sullivan I work in the central bank and yeah I was hoping and my question is on competitivity and the capital market union and in respect to Ireland and our kind of domestic financial institution environment how can we contribute to the development or the potential development of the capital market union it's a great question I would pick out so I actually will go back to something I said earlier on it's the auto enrolment project really is and it's my biggest learning from the work I've done on capital markets I always thought about auto enrolment as a project for income adequacy and how we support the income of people like you later in your life and I never joined the dots between that project and how it deepened so much the availability of capital within an economy over the space of a number of decades and the most interesting part of what we did in all of this was hearing my colleagues in Holland and the Nordic economies talk about this and they drew the link which was amazing for me between their pension systems and their share of patents in life sciences because they said we deepened our savings and only by our by deep in our savings we increase the availability of capital and then by our institutions just making a small share of that capital normal share of that capital always available year after year after year it creates the whole new investment stream for companies that are european to to prosper and I never made that link in my own mind and that tends to be something that departments of finance don't really that tends to be work that is left more and more to departments of social protection and their equivalent departments in other countries the big thing I've learned is the value that project can have in the medium term and it's something I'm really seized with here in Ireland so I'd really go back to that doing that really well how can we get your savings that you set aside for your pensions and for later in life how can we ensure the return on that savings is helping create the companies of tomorrow here in Ireland and in Europe and that's that's the challenge and I suppose it links into the competitiveness again I suppose yeah some people would ask I mean why has Europe never had a European champion say I know we Spotify for example is one very large company in the European Union but in terms of the United States would have you know Google Amazon Facebook and Apple do you think we should strive to have more of these European champion type companies as well obviously that comes with its own challenges in terms of regulation and things like that but of course absolutely we have to we absolutely have to and like so much of that is a feature of so many of the questions you've already put to me regarding the availability of capital attitudes towards risk and what you know I have never seen an entrepreneurial potential within the Irish economy and in other European economies like I'm seeing at the moment I've never seen such talent and such innovation as we have now so I'm actually certain we have the potential to grow those companies in time ahead and certain of us the question is who's going to own them that's the question who's going to own them and who's going to benefit from them is it going to be Europe or will be other parts of the world and like you have any of you heard I hope I get this right now granola have you seen that like I have got the acronym right haven't I it's the list of Europe European companies that in the last few weeks have been driving the development of European equity markets and it's a great acronym that I can't remember but if any of you have a device that has all the knowledge of the world in us you can type it in now and tell me is granola rice coin buy I think it was one of the goldman or something like that for a whole collection of companies spread all over Europe that are now driving equity market growth in Europe so we'll no doubt have a look at them more questions so I see three hands here and I saw this gentleman's hand here at the back first and my name is Lashie McSweeney actually met a couple of weeks ago and you see I'm with the economic society there and my question pertains to the mentioning of energy security and the difficulty in making it cheaper and of course alongside the capital markets and the deepening of that what's the sentiment within the euro group currently with grants perhaps wanting to introduce subsidies and fiscal loosening considering the current constraints and the need for constraints and fiscal spending and in order to invest in perhaps sustainable energy and just on an Irish scale then how do you how might we deal with kickback from coastal communities in that regard to development for wind and shore projects so great to see you again I knew I recognized you when I came in and thank you for a great afternoon in UCC I enjoyed it so much and and and another another great question so there's a lot of caution and care from finance ministers in relation to the subsidy issue reason being a concern regarding the impact that it will have on the single market so it is happening but it is not happening with the scale that's happening across the world because the concern is that it will really only then benefit the countries that can afford the fiscal loosening and the subsidies in the first place in relation to what that will mean from an energy perspective I mean my sense is is the in my sense is the investments that are happening in that area are really more about investments than they are about subsidies investments in how we support the private sector in the delivery of infrastructure investments regarding how the state at times pays for the infrastructure itself but like the really you know we go back to the origins of our union and our union many decades ago had its origin in an energy union and I think a very exciting phase of our national economic development and then what will happen within Europe is how we can continue with our efforts then with regard to renewable energy and I think the state role there will maybe be less about subsidy and more about investment here in Ireland regarding how we make the case for the coastal communities for us of course that's by the planning process in relation to all of this is so important important that it's understood and seemed to be independent important and that coastal communities have an opportunity to make their views known but ultimately the development of renewable energy here in Ireland for the 2020s and for 2030s I think this is being an opportunity for our country as FDI was in the 1990s that's how big a deal I think it is that's what I think it can do for Ireland so we do have to deliver that renewable energy grid that we're going to need and the infrastructure for us and in terms of European cooperation in that space we have I think quite a lot of like-minded countries huge development offshore wind you look at the collaboration between ourselves and France now in all of that area huge opportunities yeah just maybe if I can get an idea of how many people want to ask more questions just because time is marching on so I saw two hands okay if there's any more maybe make yourself known to me I'll go to this gentleman here first and we have Brian as well so we go to this gentleman then we go to Prince I think it is here yet hey Philip Corpus I work in statistics also in the central bank I was just wondering as you were talking about the future of EU and the next generation do you have any insights on the current state of Irish financial education and your thoughts on further improving accessibility and efforts into financial literacy um so yeah if you have any thoughts on that great question yep thank you very much hello minister my name is Prince I'm working for Intel and my question is like very soon you're going for the election and before that or after that are you looking for a potential collaborator for the Irish economy especially in the terms of those like African and Asian country apart from China am I looking for what part of me a collaboration for the collaboration sorry gotcha yep yes thank you so I think we're doing I I'm really impressed by the work that's happening financial literacy in our schools I have two young adults who are in our secondary schools at the moment uh at second level and I am I look at the the subjects they're studying and the work they now have to do and how they think about financial literacy and I think actually we're doing a I think we're doing a pretty good job of it at the moment actually I'm really encouraged by as I see my kids now grapple with concepts like how does insurance work oh I think it's great and I think it's really interesting how our schools are now teaching slightly more abstract topics through the reality of daily commercial and economic life so I'm actually really impressed by the work that's happening there at the moment opportunities for collaboration absolutely we have to continue to find ways in which we can collaborate with so many other parts of the world in relation to how we can deliver inclusive economic growth because of where we are in the world because of our closeness to Europe it's inevitable that we look to Europe and America regarding how we work together but absolutely it's something the government always wants to explore definitely okay for you I might take one from the zoom here um and I think uh Seamus might be challenging you to give a robust defense of the of the euro here but he says um is the minister able to comment on the advantages and disadvantages that Ireland has experienced being in the eurozone two decades on uh how different would Ireland's economics experience have been in relation to brexit and covid had it stayed out of the euro we'd stayed out how'd we say that yeah well I mean if if we had stayed out of the euro we would have enjoyed our our puns still been packed to sterling like what an experience of sovereignty that would be you know like our currency before joining the euro was packed to sterling what happened in sterling had very significant effects on what happened within the Irish economy and that was if you for those of you who read um Irish economic history for those of you who read studies of what happened in the department of finance when sterling moved it had an immediate effect on what happened to our currency uh and the the idea that that is could have offered a better um counterfactual history our future than the reality of sharing and pooling our economic sovereignty through our membership of the ECB and through political entities like the euro area I think we can make a really compelling case regarding the value of the euro and that form of pooling sovereignty uh I think uh an alternative world in which we are um if we were not in the euro we'd be packed to the euro now um would beg the question what's the value of being packed to the euro but not being enough so our history with one of being packed to sterling in an alternative world if we want to be packed to the euro if we still had the point I think either scenario demonstrates the value of where we are now and just one thing one thing I was thinking about before the um the event today and I think it sort of comes back to the the question that we had over here um and since it's it's an audience of young people as well and I think in the European Union and obviously you spoke about next generation EU as well there's a lot of thinking that goes on around you know reducing barriers or increasing coordination between member states and you know we talk about we allocate this amount of money and to Italy and Spain obviously given their their economic conditions during COVID and within the next generation EU recovery fund um and we allocate money to countries in these proportions for this for this reason but one thing one thing I think about is you know could there be a greater role for the European Union in terms of addressing inequalities let's say within member states and you know um obviously young people within member states are are less likely to accumulate wealth as as you know some of the points you've touched on earlier on um or is that more of a member state level competency that is addressed through fiscal policy on the on the member state level but it's just something that that I've been thinking about the last one you know I think it's already something that's recognised by the European Union and that's why projects many of the projects that are coming out of next generation EU are aiming to do that and there is far less so here in Ireland because we are not the beneficiaries of next generation EU to the degree to which other members of the European Union are but so many of the other projects that are funded by next gen EU in other parts of the EU are aimed at young people are aimed at how we can increase participation of young people of women within our economy uh so I definitely think EU has a role to play there absolutely and it's part of how we can demonstrate a more kind of contemporary and modern role for the EU and demonstrate its very modern rationale very good um I'll go to Brian I think you had a question at the back thanks minister and thanks for sharing your insights today and I'm just wondering in terms of the competitiveness angle you spoke about earlier I mean obviously when we had the Trump administration the last time around was hopefully the only time around and it was quite clear that Europe was united that there was the push of Brexit that while there was disagreements there was a need to move on in terms of trade policy making sure that Europe was competitive I just wondered this time around given the way the Europe the polls are looking for the European elections if there's a bit of a fear that more political extremes in Europe will lead to difficulty having a cohesive strategy if we do end up with that administration or other challenges in the future thank you I think undoubtedly it is a challenge and risk though when we were aiming to build up that kind of cohesiveness in 2016 onwards of course there was still see elections happening at that point within the European Union there was at that point still different movements making the case for a different approach to Europe but I would be very confident that in an atmosphere of Europe having to confront big changes in leadership elsewhere in the world that we would be able to create and maintain the cohesiveness and unity that would be needed to look after ourselves because of course the big difference between the time that you refer to then and where we are now is the reality of a war in Europe taking place and that of itself generates the imperative and need for unity and for working together and that's not easy you're all aware of the challenges that we have but ultimately I believe we'd be successful in finding that unity again and do you think the prospect of a Trump administration is something you see finance ministers thinking increasingly about around the table of course we always have to respect the decision that any people make in any election but of course it's a factor that's been considered and I suppose in relation to the considerations around developing European strategic autonomy I mean you know there is this conundrum I think in many senses that you know her subsidies or you know more state intervention in terms of you know say in the United States with the inflation reduction act the European response to that was the the net zero industry act you know you see that the global gateway in response to the China's Belt and Road initiative and a lot of these initiatives are our responses to conditions that are taking place elsewhere whereas if we think about maybe the global commons as such that you know perhaps these initiatives wouldn't have been started on their own accord so in terms of that piece around multilateralism I think I think that's where we get to the heart of why multilateralism is so important in this and how do you think we can protect that in the time ahead regardless of who is the who is the president there was a lot in that question there really really is now I'd see it slightly differently I don't see the corresponding and reciprocal act to era in America being our net zero act the parallel act that was next generation EU so I on if you look at next generation EU and the size and scale of that that was an extraordinary economic intervention the rationale for which was not what was happening in America the rationale was how we looked after ourselves and each other and you know you refer there to the global commons and the future of multilateralism and I think it is I think only honest to acknowledge the challenge that those commons are facing at the moment as we see other parts of the world rising and we see the potential for fracture and obvious friction that we have at the moment so for me the greatest contribution that we can make to that multilateralism is obviously continuing to stand by institutions like the UN and the WTO and try to play our role and then working better in the future but my god it's investing in the European Union and looking after us and doing our best to get the kind of unity and coherence that your friend asked me about a moment ago so that when Europe does speak and when we look to act we're doing so in a way that approaches partners and friends from a position of better strength and we can do that I'm reading at the moment a great book that I'd recommend to all of you I think everybody in this audience would love us circle of stars and it's a history of the EU and it's it's written by a very very learned academic but it's not quite academic but it's also far more substantial than it to be a work of journalism it's a really accessible great piece of modern economic and political history and it just reminds you again and again of the value of the EU when it could speak with roughly kind of one voice so when all its voices roughly pointing in the same direction that's what we have to aspire to the maintenance and growth of okay well I think we've we've come up to the end but before you go I wanted to do a quick fire round that's always the most dangerous part it's like if you're at a political meeting and you get to A or O B that's the very dangerous part of it so I'm going to have a glass of water but you might have preempted one of my questions which would be the last one but as I say the questions that people really want to know um if you were stuck on a desert island and you could bring one cabinet minister with you who would have been on that okay I'm not answering that question down there lies ridicule or great danger I had a feeling you might get to pass one you can pass one you might want to pass the other two now we'll see I mean how can I answer that I mean if I say Leo the teacher could go on no you know you're only saying that because he's your boss if I say Michael McGraw you'll say really you guys get on that that well which we do but you see yeah no I think I'm gonna have to ask for a pass on that now it seems like you and Michael McGraw will get along well I'm sort of nudging you towards the answer here now so I'm not going to do that so okay okay thank you that is a great question one which I'm not going to answer your favorite political leader pastor present and why island european anyone you like god so I will answer that question that's a better one that's an that's a less risky one but no easier to so I would have to say that at a european level I mean it's hard not to continue to be awed by the political vision of the early group of leaders for the european union a particularly figures like money it's really hard not to be impressed by their determination to gradually transform europe in in such difficult circumstances so I'd have to identify like money and that group and all around of what they managed to do if I was to move kind of a little bit more recently here in Ireland I'd have to say Gareth Fitzgerald there's always somebody that inspires me and for reasons that I hope that I will be obvious to you at the moment I've had lots of reasons to lament the passing of John Berlton who was a man well known to this building and his his decency and warmth our qualities that are perhaps a little less obvious to the public than his intellect and he was a he was a really good leader so they're they're a good sign of just some of the earlier responses I'd have to that and most fascinating leader and Linda Bang Johnson the one we really needed was FTO an American point of view and for those of you who don't know John was a long-standing member of the of the IIA board and very active participant in our in our uk and future reviewer groups and he loved things like this he loved audiences like all of you he was he was great and it is sort of missed by all of us and final one your favorite book you've read in the last year actually that's a very easy one because I've just finished an amazing book amazing called in the long run by Jonathan Weiss and he is a it's about the relationship between politics democracy and time and it was the book I was planning to write and he's gone and written us and he's done a far better job than I ever thought it's a basically about saying that democracy and politics is so dependent and how you talk about the future but if people think the future is running out what does that mean for democracy and it's wonderful and I just finished this and I I'm gold that he got to write it before I did but he thanked God he rose us because he could get a far better job than I ever could so it's a wonderful book so I really really have to recommend us and then I'm going to she's because I didn't answer your first question so can I get a second answer you can get the most enjoyable novel I've read in a little in a in a kind of a little while that is really relevant to some of the stuff we've talked about here tonight is in my father's house by Joseph O'Connor which is the story of Monsignor Hugh Flaherty who grew up in Cajar Siveen ended up as a priest in the Vatican and tried to save and did save allied prisoners in world war two and it's so relevant to what we're talking about here because it's a reminder of what happens when all else fails and it's a really good book really beautiful so and I'm a similar theme I think one of my favorites in the twilight of democracy by an apple bomb and you know an apple bomb always quote her you asked me earlier on about is the glass half full or glass empty an apple bomb once told me that pessimism is irresponsible what a lovely note ended on great thanks a million thank you for being here this is an amazing institute you do great work for all of you by being members of this network and for your companies and supporting the work of the IEI EA thank you for doing us and thank you Dara for I really enjoyed even this lovely being here thank you so much