 Okay, but my name is Carmen. I'm an occupational therapist. Do you know what an occupational therapist is sweet? Okay, just in case I will give my spiel and kind of why am I here? So I work with primarily with adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities. That's my area of work I live in New Mexico. We have one of the best if not the best state funded programs for adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities, so I get a lot of fun and leeway doing lots of great things. But occupational therapies, therapists work from zero to death, you know, birth to end of life and we, our principle is occupation based. So the things that you need to do, have to do, want to do, those are the goals. And how do we get you there to achieve them? Fun fact, research shows that if you do things that you care and like, you do them better. So better outcomes. And one of an occupation is social participation and that's where we get OTs of that social participation component is really important. And if there's a breakdown there, it doesn't really matter what you're doing. If you can't participate, also a talker with my hand. So try not hit it too much. So when it gets to communication, OTs, I work in the hospital. I work in people's homes. I work at jobs. I deal with people all day, every day, probably 100 people a day and different clients based on what it is. I walked into a day hub, which is like a community for adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities. And there's 40 people there. And you're talking with all of them. And so being able to code switch between the demographics that you're talking to is important. And OTs are just naturally very good at it because we have to do it all day. So that's why I'm here. You may notice the things, the things here. So I am an OTs. So I know my audience, which is you, Paul, the last end, you, Validia, I'm so sorry. It's the last day of conference, right before lunch, just had keynotes, maybe had some coffee. So I have some things, some sensory things, okay, and they're very intentional. So this is something if you look in the second row, it's on a seat, it's teal. It's called a wiggle seat. So you sit on it and it's, you know, the kids that wiggle in their seats, this is actually does that for them. And so it's really wonderful and tactile. On the back of those chairs, there are elastic bands as foot digits. So you put your foot on them. So the people who are always thumping their foot. So if you want to try out any of these things, got gum, you know, you've got cinnamon and spearmint, which are exciting aromas, got hard candy and stress balls. So wanted to OT this. So please jump on in. Okay, the three objectives for this. And depending on where you work, things are going to look a little bit differently, but we'll go into the details. So first of all, do you know what your communication needs are and why? Which is arguably one of the most crucial points, because if you can't articulate why, then why are people going to listen to you? If you just say, oh, I just like that. Well, give me something else to work with. And then how do you ask people? It's very vulnerable. It's an intimate thing to express your communication needs. What is more personal than how you communicate? And then we go into the second objective, which is when two communication styles do not align and there's some conflict, how do you actually use that to build an environment of compromise and save space to bring up things without people being defensive or jumping down your throat? And then what happens when people just don't listen and they don't care? This is interactive. So Paul, so sorry. But so the whole point of, do you know your communication methods and why? For this presentation, I'm breaking down for communication methods that are typical in the workplace. If there's one that you use more than others or one that's not in those four, you would just plug and chug it in there and same kind of thinking. And then there are all these personality assessments and strength-based assessments in the workplace, like you're in a grud, all of those types of things that a lot of management and team building will do. That is not this. This is situation-based. And how do we adapt our communication based on the situation we're in and why we should be? Because this is a game. Work is a game. And if you don't think it's a game, you're not even playing. So it's important to know that your words mean something and which communication method of how you deliver your message actually has a lot to say. So like I said, these four, these are the four I'm going to focus on. And so first emails, then we've got text messages, chat apps, like Slack, Teams, and then just a plain old phone call. Is there anything, Paul, that you use that's not on this list in the workplace? So I was thinking that the... See, and that's the difference, right? If that's really important or when you can get those. For the people at home, Paul. Should I repeat that? Yes, please. The other thing I was thinking of was in-person communications, running into somebody in the hallway or in-person meeting. That doesn't actually apply to me very much because I'm 100% remote, but for other people it would. Right, and if you ever change jobs and what you were and how things have changed. And so there's been this discussion of what do you lose when it's not that face-to-face interaction? And especially in the workplace in those water cooler talks. And it's a very valuable thing and method of communication that arguably could be best in certain situations. So if you don't have that option, what's second best? So just going through kind of the pros and cons of those four. Email, easiest way to be formal. Looking at the formality of something is really important. If you're contacting your boss's boss, you are not sending a text message. I don't care how well you know them. It's not professional. And so it's very easy. You could have an easy greeting. You can put in flowery language. You can soften the blow. You have more leeway. It's also faster. You're typing quickly. You can leave a paper trail. And for me, it's incredibly important when I am asking for a very specific request from team members and I need it documented. So when they don't do it, I have the paperwork and the timestamp and everything. I don't know if you're a manager, Paul. Okay, and I know Valerio. I know you are as well. So thinking about when you're managing people and you need very clearly expressed things that they need to fix, needs to be in writing. And email is a beautiful paper trail. Cons, they can get pretty lengthy. You know, there's the people who, hello, hi. We're real quick. If you guys need candy, you need foot fidgets, that stuff, it's in the main aisle. So the emails, they can get, you know, those emails that just lose, you just lose your train of thought. And that's where it can get. And the instant notification. So I, yes. So for me, I have my email on my phone. I check it religiously. But it's only when it's set up, do you get those new notifications? The text message would be quicker, depending on the level of urgency, which we will get into. Then the text messaging. It's informal language. If you're going to give someone your personal cell phone, it says something. It says that you're comfortable with them having that instant communication. And with that instantaneous contact, it can make things both quicker, something's an urgent matter that you need to reach someone. And it also is usually, you shouldn't be typing out long messages on a text message. You've lost the point of it. But if you text and say, hey, can you get on a call? Or send me an email. Or I just sent you a long email. Can you go ahead and take a look at it? So it can be used as a buffer to get them to the next point of communication. The cons, when I say cross boundaries, yes, there is the component of what are people consented to in the form of communication. And that could be something as a manager. When you hire someone or performance reviews, you talk about what methods of communication people are okay with. And then they can initial, check market, whatever. So you have it documented that they are fine, which the consent can be taken away, but you're fine with getting a text message. If someone is not fine with it, then there you go. You're not gonna cross that boundary. And being aware of with text, keeping those text messages, because you have it in writing and making sure that someone can't say later that you crossed a boundary. But it is easy because I check my phone all the time. And I have no boundaries when it comes to work-life balance. I am getting calls here while I am in Vancouver instead of in New Mexico. So that doesn't help things. Disturbing people. I've turned my phone completely off because I know I'll get a text message about some client and it will interrupt things. But again, every single one of these, some of these can apply to multiple methods of communication, but there are some that stick out a little bit more. So just a little recap, I'm gonna go back. So we're talking about the four methods of communication. These most likely are relevant to you. Paul brought up a great point of face-to-face communication is not on here, but if there is something else that you use, just plug it in. Actually, I also thought about, I mean, this is sort of maybe in the same space as phone calls, but things like Zoom, video chat. Exactly, which you get that face-to-face. You get to see people's reactions, their cues, what they're doing, their nonverbal communication on there. But absolutely, I think that's a quick one. Chat apps, like the messaging apps. So Teams, Slack, whatever else you may be using. I let them know, I'm an occupational therapist, I work in healthcare. We don't use chat apps. I have Teams for one company, but it's really not used that way. But there are messaging communication in the medical record in the hospital. And it's not being used that much. So if you need something urgent, it's probably not the quickest way to do it because they will not answer it. But it is nice to establish these boundaries. If it's a workplace messaging app, you're only using it for work. If you can only use it on your work computer, then it's again easier to create a work-life balance. And another thing is if it's specific to your company, you have that culture around it. You have that protection. It's a bonding experience. We use this to talk. Cons, again, like I said, for the hospital, I can't reach people sometimes. Or if they message me, I never check it because it's not really standard right now. And then typically, it's harder to send multiple messages out. So if you're getting on a Zoom call because you need other players at the table, sending an email, texting, you could do a group message. But again, how appropriate is that? Depending on the message. But chat apps may not be able to send out as many at a time. So when you're thinking about efficiency, maybe this is not it. And then lastly, phone calls. So by quickest, I mean, you can just call them up. You have like a two second question. Instead of playing email tag for 15 minutes, this maybe just get the answer. And when I say most common, for the people who've started in the workplace and the people who have been in it for 40 years, chat apps texting were not players. This is the one thing that is still a player that you can use. So it's kind of multi-generational in that way. You're not pointing out that you, maybe if someone is semi-retired and they're working remotely, they're not checking that chat messaging app. But if you call them, pretty good. And you can hear the tone. And it's easier to incorporate personality. When I am upset with someone at work or a caregiver home, which happens quite regularly, it is much easier for me to sound less like a pain if I call. When I say it over email, it just comes out passive aggressive. If I would like it to come out passive aggressive, then I use email. But being intentional about how it sounds. So if I'm going to ask something, I want to cushion the blow, make a couple of jokes, ease into it, same with Zoom. You know, you have that face to face part or as face to face as you can be. If you're working remotely, if you're working across the country, different countries, you're not going to just call someone, especially if it's asynchronous. It's just not conducive. And I know people that, and myself included, if you get a phone call and you're in the zone and it interrupts your flow, it throws you off. So that can be a little difficult. But the point of all of this is, what is the method of communication you're choosing and why? And it will change. It should change. So another component to think about why you're choosing something, urgent versus non-urgent matters. Every workplace has a different level of urgency. And what is your definition? Your definition of urgency may be completely different than someone else, which is a problem. Because if an urgent matter comes up that you need as managers and they don't communicate like it's an urgent problem, things are going to snowball. So again, something to ask about, what's urgent? How would you like me to notify you when something's urgent? Would you like a phone call then? Would you like an email, text message? What is it? And then if it's urgent for me, I'm working in the home, urgent means someone's in the hospital. Do not send me an email. I will call me. But if I'm already working at the hospital, it doesn't matter if someone's in the hospital, there, of course, they're there. I'm seeing them as they're there. So things are different and it's okay and to have that conversation and to have rules, to have strict things of this is what we do with this. And yes, there are protocols maybe based on your workplace, like in the lab or different things, but you want to change the way you communicate based on the level of urgency. Same with formality. So I presented at last year's conference and the session was completely on email communication and code switching between informal and formal language, which I think is still on YouTube, so I will not spend all the time talking about the 45 minute presentation from last year, but there are rules for formality. The bigger the request, the more formal the email or the wording, the level of familiarity. If you are familiar with that person, it changes the way you're gonna word things. And the level of request. If you are asking a big request like a raise, whatever the thing is, you're not gonna text it. You're gonna change your language based off the nature of it. And you should be. Another consideration that I think there is more and more awareness on, but people's sensory sensitivities. And so for you guys, you're seeing Valerio pop around to different stations. We have, yes, we have the candy, but I have a wiggle seat, which is proprioceptive input. I have the foot fidgets, again proprioceptive input. These are things to help you regulate your own system. So looking at that, if you're doing best in a quiet environment, if you're gonna have a serious conversation, maybe a coffee shop is not the place. And looking at not in front of people or if you have sensitivities to auditory processing, having that quiet environment would probably be best for you. And that's okay. And saying, hey, if we're gonna have these conversations, I don't, I need to be in a separate room. So I don't hear my children aren't giving feedback on the phone call, okay? Visually, I care a lot about low vision. I have a specialty certification in low vision therapy. And so vision is really under, not really looked at as much, I would say. So if you're someone with acuity issues, I wear glasses, if you need a bigger font, if you need things with better contrast, if you're sending out a rough draft with high contrast, that's better than low contrast. If that's something that you need, then that would be something to talk to with your team members, with your managers, whoever it may be. And then executive function, that's frontal lobe. So looking at organization reminders, if you were someone who is just unorganized and you've tried all of your strategies and you're just not quite there, that'd be something to talk to a manager about of, hey, can you send a couple things my way? They can say no, but looking at why, because my executive function is a little bit off, I'm delayed, so I need to have these kind of built-in supports. Okay, so small groups. So we're gonna, I'm gonna change it up, okay? So I'm gonna give a list those four methods of communication, and I'm gonna ask, this is interactive, by the way, so this is uncomfortable, so sorry. But I'm gonna rank the order of preference, your preference and how you communicate. Go with your gut. I know things change based on situation as they should, but if you had to go with your dream communication method, what order would it be? Go from most preferable to least preferable. That'll do. Is most preferable, okay? But do they text your work phone or your personal phone? Okay, so chat apps are leased. For me, I rank email and chat apps equally high, depending on the nature of the communication. They're both highly preferred. Texts are okay, but I don't give out my cell number to anybody but to like immediate team members, and phone calls are way, way, way, way at the bottom. Please don't call me, it better be an emergency. Yes, okay, so saying that of like not pissing off people of like I don't like phone calls. Please do not call me, send me an email. Unless there's an emergency, then there are exceptions. So people don't get so stuck in that line. Does anyone else have any other differences? What would yours, one of y'alls? I would say the chat apps is the most preferable for me in emails, texts, and phone calls. Okay. We use the Google chats a lot on the company. So I can just divide the company ones in a personal way with chat apps and emails and texts and phone calls, yeah. Okay. Yeah, please move around. It's before lunch, like we're all in a tired state, so do what you need to do. Okay, and for me, I would say chat apps, I never answer, but because of HIPAA compliant stuff, there's a secure messaging form and I never, I'm so bad about using it, that's my least favorite. I would say emails are first because I need things written down so I can, when I turn people into the state, I need to have a paper trail, but I'm selfish because in healthcare as therapists, we bill by the minute and you cannot quantify emails and it has to be over eight minutes to get a billable unit in, which can be done via phone call. So I can bill for phone calls. I cannot bill for emails, so, but I give out my number because the population that I work with, not the clients, the clients will have my number, but the caregivers of the clients, because they will forget about therapy sessions and they'll take, oh, actually, we're at the movies and it's like we were supposed to meet here, so I need that level of communication and instantaneous because they're gonna change things on me all the time and the turnover rate for the caregivers with adults with developmental disabilities, same with any nursing home, anything like that is just outrageous right now and always has been, but it's really bad, so you need, I need that instantaneous communication. Okay, how does it change based on the level of urgency? Phone call should be, sorry. Yes, no please, yeah. Yeah, I think phone call should be the best option. What's urgent to you in your work? In your place? Yeah, in my urgency, in the work urgency, your phone calls maybe the, yeah. What would be an example of something that's urgent in your workplace? Maybe something, yeah, actually I work as admin and accounting, so maybe related to something like money, then it could be urgent, yeah. Yeah, if you've got something wrong with my billing, that's pretty urgent to me, but how do you communicate? Yeah, and when you choose and making sure you're calling Paul about his time sheet or something, Paul needs to know that I'm gonna call you and it needs to know that's gonna be okay. For in my work environment, it depends a little bit. Most people are using Slack during the work day and so usually the first thing, if I need something, a quick answer from somebody, I'll at them, you may be like, hey at Joe, can you tell me this or whatever. If I don't get an answer, if it actually is like really urgent like, oh hey, there's a delivery guy waiting for you downstairs, you need to go meet him. If I don't get an answer within like a minute, I'll usually text them or call them or something like that, but try the chat first, yeah. Any differences for you? It's definitely phone call, if it's urgency and then so for me I define urgency as the sky is falling, right? Or I need this answer right now. So I would say most of the phone calls I take are usually from higher ups, VPs, cause that's what I tell them, if you need me right away, if you need something right away, a phone call is best because it's foreign to me to see my phone ring. Like, oh, something's happening, I have to answer this. But if it's other urgency things that we just need help right now, I would say a chat app or text message, email is definitely like the last place because especially if the email is below the fold, like I'll never see it. And I average like 200 emails a day. So based off of like when you're having that conversation, right, so everyone has selected different things and different reasons and some of, again, the urgent, what's truly urgent, what isn't, and having that conversation with people, so people are okay with that. They're okay with you texting them. They're okay, especially acrossing genders. You really have to, it's important to have things documented that it's okay. Okay, one of the, it's very vulnerable to tell someone how you prefer to communicate. And you really should be, in my opinion, professionally and personally, you should really care about how you're communicating because if you don't, then that means the message isn't as important. And then why are you bothering? I, time is my most precious commodity and I assume is most of yours. So if you don't even know why you're communicating, don't waste their time. So if you're going to advocate for yourself and say, this is what I like, this is what I need, this is the stuff that I would prefer, urgent matters, call me, everything else, please just message me. If you do my email, I'm not gonna get it because it'll be below the fold. Or shoot me a text message or an app message that I sent a very long email because it's more appropriate of, hey, I sent you something, can you take a look at it when you get a chance? There are those kind of dual ways of communicating that are more efficient and appreciative and I appreciate it, respectful of someone's request because advocacy and communication is a two-way street. So one of the biggest things I think right now, especially is how do you not sound entitled to have your communication needs be met because your communications skills and needs are not any less important than my own. And again, I'm an occupational therapist and I just came from a national OT convention and met with some faculty people from across the country and they're a common theme right now as students quote unquote are entitled. And they're entitled to certain things. And regardless of how you feel about that, I think it's really important that when you express something, there's ownership of it. There's ownership of you're asking something, you're saying, for example, if I was asking my boss and think about power dynamics, so if I'm asking my boss something, it's much different than a boss asking me something. So if I'm asking my boss, hey, I missed a deadline, I didn't check my chat app because it doesn't matter why, I didn't check it. So I'm going to check it every night at five. And because my level of urgency is not, again, based on my place of work, urgency is not taken, is not told to me, urgent matters are not expressed via chat apps, they're expressed via email and phone calls. Okay, I can do that. If you need me to look at something before 5 p.m., can you shoot me a text message? I've expressed my request. They have every right to say no. They have every right to say yes. And I've expressed it. And maybe that actually makes it a more efficient workplace. Paul. I was just going to say I work with faculty as well. I'm an IT manager in an academic unit. And a communications problem we have all the time is that one of my team members is walking down the hallway going to do something else and a faculty member will grab them and make some request of them, like, hey, can you help me with this? I have this problem, blah, blah, blah. And what I tell all of my team members is, you can interact with them briefly, be like, okay, Aisu, oh, what are you asking about? Okay, cool. Yes, we can definitely help you with that. But can you please send us email? Because I'm very forgetful, I will probably forget this. So please send email, then it's documented and we will not forget it and it'll be taken care of. So thank you. It's kind of a way of, it's like it's putting a little bit of a burden on them, but it's, you know, you can do it in kind of an apologetic, like, oh, hey, sorry, I'm in the middle of a thing. I'm probably gonna forget by the time I get back to my office, so this will really help me if you can do this. And everybody is always very understanding and is willing to do that in half the time they don't and then we don't have to do the thing after all. That's really not that urgent, then. Right, yeah. It's not very crucial. But exact, right, so, again, it's that two-way street. Okay, I need this from you. I, if you want that done, I'm so sorry, I'm running. I'm racing someplace right now. I'll do my best to remember, but could you send me an email with those requests and then we can make sure that I can forward it onto the right people who can do that? Done. They choose to not do that, then that's their part. If they choose to, then it's on you to receive it and do the job. But again, it's that two-way street. And you saying that, you don't sound entitled of like, I'm just so busy, I can't be bothered with you. There's a different way that people can play with each other well. So, ideal world. You guys have established what your preferred methods of communication. You've talked with your boss and you've said, you know, if you need me to answer something quickly, shoot me a text message. You have it in writing. Their butt is covered. You know, you're not crossing any boundaries that they didn't consent to. Great. And they say, no, I'm sorry, I don't text. I'm not going to. I'm not going to give out my personal cell phone. I'm not going to text. I'm just not comfortable with it. Okay. Fair. Now what? So, the first things, if you ask something, is it you? Okay, are you being, I don't want to say unrealistic, but if you're saying, I just want to go through text or I don't want to do chat apps, I just want an email or whatever it may be and whatever Zoom calls. Does it match the situation? You're only in control of your own behavior and how you respond to the situation. So, does it match the level of urgency? And the formality. That's the one thing you can change pretty rapidly. And then the method of communication. So, if you've said, I only want phone calls, that's really no wiggle room. So, can you be more open to Zoom? Can I text you to set up a time to get on Zoom so you can block out scheduling? And again, why? Why is it? Because it interrupts my day. It makes me less efficient. So, common examples I would say of the breakdown in communication where things are just not working. So, if they don't check their email often enough, which could be because it gets buried, they check it, but you're so far down the totem pole that it is not showing up. Or, texting. For me, I really, I have to be reachable. I'm sure I could have more boundaries. I don't. I went on Christmas day to go pick up a client from her mother's house. Like, I have no boundaries. I have no balance between my work and my personal life. I would love to be better about that. Where are my trade-offs? I'm working on it. Chat apps are, again, for me, it's for like spamming people if you're with the messaging. Like, I don't need five messages because I barely check it anyway, so just call me. And then, reminders. There are certain deadlines we all have to meet. And I think, regardless of where you work, there's always going to be a deadline. So, if you ask your boss or your team to send you a reminder, you're not Mike being micromanaged. But again, if you send out reminders, because you're the manager, telling people, hey, I like these kinds of reminders so I send them out. I'm not micromanaging you. I'm not trying to paint you into an box or say that you're not gonna meet the deadlines. It just helps me. So then they don't take it personally. But there's that two-way street. And some people just don't like it. They feel like they're not being trusted to do their own job. And we go into the power dynamics. It's we're never gonna get away from this. And I think there's another component that doesn't really work in my job, but I think works a lot more in some of your jobs of the sales component. So you have these power dynamics between manager, team member. Team to team is more lateral. And then a team member and to a manager, you're going up. But then if you're talking to an outside consumer buyer, you've got a whole nother ballgame there. And it's a whole nother kind of language that you should be speaking. Because they don't know the tech, they may not know the technicality of the stuff that you're talking about. But that one is not really relevant to my work. So it's more relevant to you guys. But I think that would be another section. So when you're talking, like if you're running down the hallway and someone grabs you, we're talking lateral. You're on the same pay field, right? How does the dynamic change? There's always gonna be a hierarchy where we work. People have been there longer. People have more letters after their name. People have this award. Don't you know who I am? Doesn't matter. And playing respect to the ego of people. If you can play that game, you get farther along. Doesn't mean the game's right. But if you're not at the table, you can't change anything. So for me, I, and please agree, disagree. For me, I find it much harder if I'm speaking upwards. Like to a manager, to someone who's in control of my paycheck. I don't wanna say the wrong thing. But I also am like, this is what I need. Or you're not doing this. I need you to, you don't respond back to any of my emails or phone calls, and I have contacted you. And I need this in place to do my job. So it's much harder to select your word choice and not to piss off someone. Because then you're labeled as the troublemaker. Any other dynamics that are not here, and besides of the consumer one that I thought. It's always challenging is when you promote from team to manager and you have a friend that was on your team. So I've been in that situation and that's hard because I've been in this role for a while and I've been friends with this person because we work together, we both have kids, whatever, so now this person, we're on Facebook together, we have each other's phone numbers and we're used to communicating a certain way. But now I'm her boss. Tough. It is tough. And then how do you not ruin that friendship? Exactly. But also you have a job to do. Yep. And no one's gonna mess with my money. I'm not putting my job on the line at all. But so there's that, you know, and how do you have that conversation with a friend or if you're working, what if you have a partner that you're working with? You know, and forget the power structure, there's all of those things in place for the legality and you talk to your HR about dating a coworker, but there are those things and how does it work? And having that open sort, open kind of communication of like, these are things I have to do as a boss, okay? I cannot text you. And so there are, people can call them whatever they want. For me, there's little boxes. I place my day in a box, okay? I, this is not my work clothes. I'm on the ground. I'm taking care of people. I'm wiping people and showering. I have a different uniform literally for that. So when I take it off at night, I'm out of that zone. So same with communication. If you need to just strictly talk with someone, even though you could text and it'd be just fine, but if you have to put yourself in that box of like, I can only communicate with you via email at work. It is not personal. It is personal actually. I have to keep this separate in my mind. I have to be able to say, I'm being fair to everyone else that does not have that history with me. But it's hard. And especially when you've been with people for years and you've seen people through all changes of life, you know, all seasons, it really is difficult. And I think as you continue to go up in the ladder, it's harder because you know people, you know their story. And how do you not lose that? Because there's integrity involved in it. You haven't changed as a person. How do you keep that? These are these splitting hairs, but these hairs matter so much because they can make or break a work environment. How are you dealing with it? Oh, you're fine. So it's not recent. I've done it before. And I struggled because I was younger. I thought I could have it all. But eventually things came to a head and I had to have like a very serious conversation with my friend. And it was very similar to what you said of like, this is what I need because it's not fair to everybody else on the team. And you know, as well as I do, that I can be accused of playing favorites and what that could do to my career. I know you care about me. I know you care about my career because I care about you and you care about my career. So it really came down to having that heart to heart and setting boundaries. It wasn't easy at first, but we got to a good place. And then I took another role. So then of course things eased up after I wasn't her direct leader anymore. But it taught me a lot. It made me grow up for sure in the corporate world because it is a hard, I'll never forget that experience. It's a hard transition to become someone's boss when you were their peer and you happen to be close to them. Yeah. And when I'm sure that looking back at it, right, would you've done something differently? Are you proud, like, or were you really happy with how you handled it? I would have done something differently. I think I would have had that conversation or some semblance of that conversation earlier on. Cause it, like things got bad before I had to get there, right? Lots of, lots of point, a few fingers like, well, you've changed. Like you're a boss now. So you think you're all that kind of thing. And it's like, you're not doing your job. And I think you're not doing your job because you're trying to take advantage of me because we're friends. And so it was lots of pointing fingers and arguments and like, how do I deal with this? And then like HR got involved. So it was, it was like a little bit of a nightmare. So I would do that. I would have had that set boundaries and had that conversation much earlier on than I did. Yeah, I think, so right, we live and we learn. We try something out. Great, tweak this. I would do it differently. But the next time, cause it's gonna continue to probably happen, cause you're a lovely person and you're gonna socialize with people and how do you tweak it along the way to getting your rhythm of this is the thing. This is how we like to communicate. Okay, I've, you know, we become friends with our coworkers. I will call and I will say, okay, this is work talk. Here's this person and I'll say, okay, done. How was your weekend? And I literally shut off the time for billing. I don't, of course I don't bill for that time. But for me, I'm able to, that's how I communicate. And I think as you, as everyone moves up laterally wherever it is in your career, whoever you're managing, how to instill that in other people as well because it's gonna continue to happen. I actually have one. So I manage a team, there's 15, 16 people in my group. Some of them could be my friends, some of them couldn't. So how do I manage relationships with all of them when I naturally communicate with some of them better than with others? I don't, you know, this is, that's the problem, right? And there's some people who you really like. You're like, we'd be friends. We'd be friends outside of this place. But I don't think, if you were on the other side of things and you were not in the fun group, I think that you would be pretty angry. And so having that, I'm sorry, we can't, and it stinks, they're gonna be a good friend, but they're gonna continue to move up in their career as well. And if you're a good manager, you're going to really support them as they move up. And then I think you get to be friends with them. But I don't think you get to. I mean, I think you make that decision and that call. Yeah, and that's what you end up doing. You end up treating everybody neutrally. Which is to prevent any discomfort. Yeah, and then there are different rules that you set for yourself, right? Like, okay, I won't do this or am I world? I will not be Facebook friends. I will not be Instagram friends with any, I cannot be friends with my clients. Which is really hard. Because my job is very intimate. It's personal, it's in your space. And I, yeah, it's hard. And I'm not good at it. So again, creating boundaries between clients is not my strong suit. So those who can't do teach, right? Any other comments? Works, you know, how many hours a week do we actually spend working? I spend, we all spend way more than 40. If anyone says they actually work 40, bless you because I need your life. And I need your level of prioritization. When you're communicated and you're discussing how you want to communicate and what level of communication you need, I need hands-off approach. I don't, what do you need? If you actually do what someone asks, wow, you've created something. You've created, you worked on compromise. You've created a working environment where you can communicate with people. And if you're the manager or the team member, then they know that maybe the second time, you'll still be receptive. And the next time, when something, when something personal is happening and you need some mentorship or you need someone to support you through this, it creates this work environment because when it, I think we can all, you can all picture the place of work where the communication was not good and it was not healthy and it ate away at your soul. Cause I can think of a place that I just quit two weeks ago and it ate away for years. And so when it's good, when you can actually contribute to that dynamic and you make it the work environment that you need, that your coworkers, your team members, your managers need, it's beautiful. You're more efficient. You're a happier employee. You maybe recommend people for the job openings. So there's power in it and there's power when you just say, yeah, I can do that. So skin off your back. Maybe it's the simplest request but it could make the world of difference to someone else. And then maybe they do it for you. Maybe, hey, can you shoot me a text message the day before that's due? Cause I'm going to forget. No matter how many, it's in my calendar, it's in my planner, it's on my mirror, it's on this, it doesn't matter. There are these things that maybe we don't do or we don't get it and we need those little extra reminders. And if someone could simply send you a text message before something is due, maybe it makes a lot of difference. Okay, great. Identified your needs. You've identified, you've talked about it, you've compromised, you've done this. What if someone just does not care? I think there's something to be said with managers of like, yes, I'm sure you would love me to do that. It's not actually feasible. And it's too much work on my end. Okay, so every right to say that. But what are you doing? If you're shutting down that conversation, what are you telling your coworker or your manager or anyone else? There is a way to say it that I'm unable to address this right now for whatever reason. Maybe you don't even have to give a reason. But can we revisit it in a couple of weeks? You've left the door open, give it an option. And then it allows, because this is, maybe you're not ready now. Maybe you're not able to do that. Maybe you're not able to accommodate someone's needs right now. And again, being able to say that and not in a jerk way is beautiful. So practicing your delivery. And then if it actually, okay, I can't do it right now. I can't be your friend right now. Okay, we have this level of communication. We've talked about it. You let me know when you're ready and I'm here. And it allows, if you're having that open dialogue and someone else experiences it or gets to, hey, how'd you get that? Oh, that's really cool. Someone, they're not texting you anymore or they're shooting you a text message because you've okayed it and it just makes life a little bit easier. Maybe I can ask them to do that too. Then you've opened up the door for other people. And people may be just too afraid to ask because no one wants to be seen as a complainer, as that, you know, anything, stuff that's not the best connotations with asking for stuff. And when I say the logistics matter, again, having, I need stuff in writing. I have to cover my own behind. I have to cover. And I think there's, it's not that I'm expecting something to go wrong. It's just I'd be naive to think that it's not gonna backfire or something else isn't gonna happen. Whether, and that's something to be said of the chat apps and certain things. What's the, how do you save the history on those apps? And if you're not able to, then how do you protect yourself? If someone is not receptive, I would argue that it says more about them than it says something about you. So I don't think you should stop advocating for your needs. If someone is not receptive to it, that's on them. But if they say, I'm sorry, I will not respond to your phone calls. I will not answer them. I need it in writing. Whatever, it doesn't matter with the reasoning. If they're your boss, great. Okay, so if you flip it. Okay, if they only want it written down, it's the same way as me asking for it to be a phone call. So why wouldn't I accommodate them? Say, okay, sounds good. Thank you. And again, you go back to the urgency. If there is an emergency, how would you like to be notified? Great, you wanna be notified via email? Sounds good. I can do that. And then it's hard to not look defensive when someone does not do what you ask. I would not bring it up again. If you are a manager, you know, you have these, if you're having these maybe quarterly meetings or whatever it is with your team members or maybe you bring it up, hey, I'm really trying to work on a work-life balance because you guys stopped texting me. And maybe you don't achieve it, but hey, I'm gonna be setting a do not disturb from 5 p.m. to 7 a.m. I will get back to you in those hours. And taking the ownership of what you bring. Okay, if you text me during this time, I will get back to you at 7 a.m. the next day, not ignoring you. I'm setting boundaries. We can do the same thing. You know, people have their emails of, you know, I will respond back within 24 to 48 business hours. You know, there's all, we're all very reachable. Whether we should be or not. And just ownership and kindness of your, like your phrase of, oh, I can send me an email and I can address it. You're not defensive at all. It's just a fact. And then the self reflection piece, which is why I brought up, you know, how did you, how did you like how you handled it? If you handled it, how would you do it differently? What would you change about it? And then if it's another friend or another coworker, would you do it again? Or did it just, was it so traumatic that you were like, never, you know what, forget it. I'm just never bringing it up. But I think there's a huge learning experience. And when I say translating to other areas, I will sometimes teach the OT program. I do problem-based learning and six to eight. You have them for a semester and they're my age. And I bought and I want to be friends with them, but I can't be, because there's that dynamic and it's different. But I found through feedback and being able to be more receptive to feedback and not just go on the defense, helped my personal relationships like with my mother or my partners of I, okay, let me take it in. This is just breathe and process it and hear what you're saying and then I will respond. Or if I cannot respond, I'll come back to you tomorrow. And I got much better at that with the students because I would just, my mother and I, you know, you all have that person you can think of. So being able to practice this with your coworkers and expressing your boundaries can kinda help in your personal lives too. Okay, that's it. I had it longer, but we've been, you know, this is a different kind of a presentation right now. Different than I expected. So any questions, any thoughts? Anyone wanna try out the foot fidgets, the wiggle seats? Okay, well, so yes, you know, have a good lunch. This is it, yeah, I appreciate y'all's time. You know, this is the last day conference. It's right before lunch. Apparently it's the only diversity empowerment one of the whole day. So thanks for coming. Yeah, thanks guys.