 Now we're going to go through a little game and it's very simple. I'm going to ask you to choose between two things that you have found the most difficult when it comes to the innovation process. And we all know that developing product is one thing. The other thing is to find the market and to really think about the customer orientation etc. So which one is the hardest? Is it the technology or is it the market? Market. Market. Market. Market. Market. And market. And market. Wow. Wasn't that, that was quite a astounding answer. Does it mean that product development was very easy? In our case we are using a Tridite tester which is quite new technology in Finland. And especially on a farm scale. But I still see that there are also other possibilities. What kind of technology to use when producing bio gas for example. But there is always question about the money, how to get the income. And if there is demand for the energy you are producing. And when you are working in a small scale on crop farms. It means that there is no energy demand on the farms. But then the amount of energy produced is quite small and so where to sell it. But maybe I can ask Jarev. You were part of developing the easy mining. And I think that developing the product you have to meet with a number of standards isn't it as well. The technical requirements that couldn't have been so easy. Yeah. I said that the market is important and I still think that it is important. And in my view you need to recover nutrients in a commercial form that you can use the existing market today. To give the farmers the products that are used to with high availability and high effectivity. So what's actually happening is the way I chose to see the technology is we try to clean the phosphorus from a place where it's a pollutant. So it's causing elbow gloom. And we want to bring it back to a place where we use as a fertilizer. So essentially what we are doing is we are transporting the phosphorus from a source of pollution to a source of nutrients. And what we are doing is we are building a transporter. So that's the technology that we are using. So we use an adsorbent and iron oxide based adsorbent. And the challenge is it's like every day when you travel, when you transport yourself you use a car for instance. So you want to use a car that transports you very fast. You know, it's luxurious, it's comfortable. But at the end of the day you want to use something that has a high life time that you can keep using again and again. And that's essentially what we do. We put it in a resin. So it's got a really high life time and we can reuse the technology. Yes, phosphorus is a nutrient. But the way we want to look at it is not address it at the Baltic Sea but before it reaches the Baltic Sea. So that's how we want to look at it. And one thing to add on is we are working with very dilute streams. We are looking at extremely low concentrations of phosphorus. So the drive is rather to prevent elbow gloom. So that's got to be very clear. So let's think about the bigger picture and the systems and so on. If I will ask you another quick question. If you think about your innovation, would you label it as symbiotic? Basically that others will also gain always or will there also be losers? So I will ask you to label your innovation whether it's symbiotic or if it's disruptive. So what would you say? Symbiotic. Symbiotic. Of course symbiotic. Symbiotic. Symbiotic. Symbiotic. Free symbiotic. On this side? Symbiotic. Symbiotic. Yes symbiotic. Symbiotic. Yes. On the other hand we also know that to make the bigger picture different, to make our systems work in a different way, we also need to be radically changing some of the dominant technologies. At least that's what I've been hearing that we need to have changes in terms of how of land use, in terms of maybe how we treat sewage etc. So is there something in your own innovation that can really bring about this big transformation that really changes it? And is it going to happen through legislation? Or do you think it's going to happen through consumer driven forces? So I don't know, maybe we should start from this side because on this, with Callum Bori, we have such a wonderful example of a transformed society where you are doing things differently. So how did that even start? Well, Callum Borsum Biosus has been running for more than 50 years now. So it's something that has evolved organically over time. Always because it's companies, it's private companies, a lot of them. And of course they have the business case in mind. So a certain stream, a business agreement will not happen if it's not mutually beneficial and if it's not financially feasible. Of course legislation can come in and assist us making the alternative non-feasible, thereby making the symbiotic thing the better choice. We have heard now several examples of how you have to work maybe in a smaller setting with actors, creating trust, and I think this is well known from the literature as well, that if you want to create a new niche within a socio-technical larger system, you have to start creating smaller networks, etc. But the step after that is more difficult, of course, to move out from the local setting. So how do we get there? So that we have, I mean, whether it's the Heller model with your technology, or if it's the AES, or if it's the Callum Bori example, how do we take it to the next level so someone can do the same thing in another place? Because now everyone is coming to you and looking at what you have been doing and thinking, how could I take this back home? So is there something we could do to facilitate the transfer of the model, not necessarily by always having the same actors? Yes, that is a challenge because as we have a lot of questions, we really have to try to be everywhere now. And that's hard because you just have your hours and you still want to have time to continue your product development at the testbeds and do all those technical work as well. So in our case, we have been so lucky, so we have been using our guests. So now we have around ten certified agents, as we call them, who has been coming to us and taking a part of our visits and then coming back to us and saying, hello, we are interesting to go on with this in our country and in our networks. So they are helping us to build business in their networks. What aspects of the market introduction has been the most difficult? Was that the question? Yes. Just to make it a bit clearer, it's a bit like when you have innovations, you did point out that they are not always symbiotic, sometimes they are destructive, there is a bit of both in reality, I must say. The challenges for innovators who really have exciting ideas, they are pushing the existing boundaries, so sort of they have become the early players. So in this case, with the case of aquacare, we are targeting extremely low levels of phosphorus and this is still an early phase when it comes to large-scale application. So technically it's feasible, but how much our stakeholders are willing to play? They have no benchmark as to how much they are willing to pay. So that's where the legislations need to kick in, where they really make this a requirement which I think will happen in some time. But that's the challenge. Being early players in any case, there is no real benchmark and then you really have to play with the benchmark. So that's the challenge I see. I learned a lot about the topic today earlier as well while I was discussing it with him and it was interesting to see the challenges people face when they want to reuse waste. And one of the conclusions which we will also point out is it should be independent of the source, but we should have similar standards. It should be based on the quality of the material and not that it's based on the waste, so it cannot be used. So for me that part was very interesting. Now, so your case might be a bit special because in other places we don't have well-developed markets. I think maybe Per, you want to comment on that. Where are we really when it comes to the market development of phosphorus, for instance, from these products? I would like to say that we are in the same situation. When you create a symbiosis, the most important thing is trust. It's not legislation. But when you're going to scale it up, when you're going to do it in a large scale, you need legislation. But in order to create that, you need to create an awareness that there is a possibility on the market. And that was the focus for us the last two years to make sure that politicians, policy makers understand that there is a possibility. So you need to have trust in order to create the movement to change. And hopefully after that, legislation can come in place as a next step, I believe. And trust builds on knowledge and interaction, or how would you say? Knowledge is important, but also to understand that each player understands that they are a part of changing and understand that they become, each of them needs to become heroes. Then they will help you. See, if you try to win by yourself, you will definitely lose. A circle economy is about collaboration. So collaboration is the key where it's going forward.